J41
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Whats Going On With This 777

Mon Oct 16, 2006 2:29 am

Just saw this picture on the main page, anyone know whats going on with it? Why no engines?
http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=1124392&TopOfYest=yes
 
EMBQA
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RE: Whats Going On With This 777

Mon Oct 16, 2006 2:34 am

With the current condition of Varig, the leasing company that owns the engines wanted them back. Very normal when a plane is returned to the leasing company. Looking at other picture of this plane, it's been sitting in JFK since at least April.
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[Edited 2006-10-15 19:38:09]
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RichardPrice
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RE: Whats Going On With This 777

Mon Oct 16, 2006 2:35 am

In its last months before bankruptcy, Varig stole parts and engines from fleet aircraft to keep some of their fleet airworthy - theres an old thread in the archives with a fantastic picture of about two dozen aircraft, 777s included, parked up and in various states of disarray where mechanics have taken what they needed.
 
AlitaliaMD11
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RE: Whats Going On With This 777

Mon Oct 16, 2006 2:49 am

PP-VRE has been sitting at JFK since the end of March I believe. She was first stored over by the United hangars but in the past two months has moved to the American hangar area.

I believe PP-VRE was seized at JFK over her right engine which hadn't been paid for or something like that.
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AA777223
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RE: Whats Going On With This 777

Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:12 pm

I am under the impression that most of these aircraft have already found new homes, and a very few of them will temporarily return to the desert while new owners are found for them. This should not be too difficult as the 777s are in high demand. Sad, sad state of affairs. I would not have wanted to fly on Varig those last few months with replacement parts for operational aircraft ripped off of other ones not in proper storage.
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SFOFlyer
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RE: Whats Going On With This 777

Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:42 pm

Ok, so pardon my ignorance, but if the leasing company for the engines is different than the leasing company for the airframe, what this the leasing company for the engines doing with them? I know that those engines are very expensive, but I would think it would cost them a lot of $$$ to take them off the plane and ship them somewhere for storage or to be put onto another B777.

Are there a lot of B777's without engines or in need of engines?

Are the engines off of PP-VRE to be use as spares with someone else fleet?

Can the PW4090 engines be easily replaced with GE90-94B, Trent 895, or other suitable engines? Do the engines have to match (I would think so...)?

How common is it to have multiple leasing companies for a single airplane?

Just curious...
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warreng24
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RE: Whats Going On With This 777

Mon Oct 16, 2006 2:13 pm

Quoting SFOFlyer (Reply 5):
Ok, so pardon my ignorance, but if the leasing company for the engines is different than the leasing company for the airframe, what this the leasing company for the engines doing with them? I know that those engines are very expensive, but I would think it would cost them a lot of $$$ to take them off the plane and ship them somewhere for storage or to be put onto another B777.

Yes. Engine lessors and aircraft lessors can be different. You always want to have more engines leased than aircraft. The reason being... you don't want your A/C grounded while the engines are being overhauled or repaired. You want to be able to "plug in" a new engine and be ready to go.

Quoting SFOFlyer (Reply 5):
Can the PW4090 engines be easily replaced with GE90-94B, Trent 895, or other suitable engines? Do the engines have to match (I would think so...)?

Not on a 777. The engine mounts/hydraulics/etc... connections are very different between the PW, GE and RR engines.

This is what makes the 787 so revolutionary. Each engine manufacturer will conform to a standard for these connections. So, in theory a 787 could operate one day with a GE engine and the next day with a RR. Or you could have a RR on the port side and a GE on the starboard side. You'd just need to tweak the flight control software to compensate.
 
SFOFlyer
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RE: Whats Going On With This 777

Mon Oct 16, 2006 2:42 pm

Very interesting! Thanks for the info...

Just out of curiosity, (and I know this is probably a tech-ops question) but how often to the PW4090's need to be overhauled and how long does it take? Also, how long would a B777 be out of service for an engine swap?
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ramerinianair
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RE: Whats Going On With This 777

Mon Oct 16, 2006 3:03 pm

Another interesting fact about aircraft/engine leasing:
The enigines are the most expensive part of the aircraft (generally). It is common to see airlines with poor credit leasing different aircraft and components from seperate companies. Also, aircraft insurance is the same way. Since, it's a large risk, usually there will be many companies on the policy covering the aircraft.
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Molykote
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RE: Whats Going On With This 777

Mon Oct 16, 2006 4:08 pm

Quoting Warreng24 (Reply 6):
Each engine manufacturer will conform to a standard for these connections. So, in theory a 787 could operate one day with a GE engine and the next day with a RR. Or you could have a RR on the port side and a GE on the starboard side.

Are you sure about the intermix?

Not doubting you but I would be surprised to learn that the airplane will be certified with an intermix configuration (if true) - I haven't heard any of this.

Any sources?
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chuchoteur
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RE: Whats Going On With This 777

Mon Oct 16, 2006 10:45 pm

I'd be surprised if that was the case.
full interchangeability is not that simple, even if the hard connection points used are the same.

an engine turbine has different characteristics from one maker to the next, so even assuming that all the hardpoints were identical, you'd still have to upload an updated Fadec to control the engine (with change of characteristics).

I would not think that the FAA or EASA would buy in on that, as it could technically mean you fit another engine type, and you *may* forget a new Fadec upload, with interesting consequences. (Human Factors - never trust the human!).

Similar hardpoints does make some sense from a manufacturing point of view, possibly with enhanced interchangeability but NOT identical for all engine types...
 
F14D4ever
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RE: Whats Going On With This 777

Mon Oct 16, 2006 11:38 pm

Quoting Warreng24 (Reply 6):
in theory a 787 could operate one day with a GE engine and the next day with a RR. Or you could have a RR on the port side and a GE on the starboard side. You'd just need to tweak the flight control software to compensate.

That's beyond the scope of interchangeability.

Quoting Molykote (Reply 9):
Not doubting you but I would be surprised to learn that the airplane will be certified with an intermix configuration (if true) - I haven't heard any of this.

Your skepticism is well founded.

Quoting Chuchoteur (Reply 10):
I'd be surprised if that was the case.
full interchangeability is not that simple ... you'd still have to upload an updated Fadec to control the engine (with change of characteristics).

For most economic cruise, engine thrust must be perfectly balanced side-to-side so that the flight crew can move and set the throttles together. Neither a FADEC upload nor a tweak of flight control software will suffice for this. Even if you could upload software to a GEnx that would make it respond to the throttle input (and numerous other input channels) indentically to a Trent, or vice versa, you'd still get asymmetric thrust at identical throttle setting because of nacelle differences. So you'd be forced to map the engine/nacelle ('installed'} net thrust over the entire flight envelope, and have a 'fake' throttle input to the engine. Not impossible, but ridiculously complicated and overwhelmingly expensive for the benefit.
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Morvious
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RE: Whats Going On With This 777

Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:16 am

Quoting Molykote (Reply 9):
Are you sure about the intermix?

Not doubting you but I would be surprised to learn that the airplane will be certified with an intermix configuration (if true) - I haven't heard any of this.

Any sources?



Quoting Warreng24 (Reply 6):
So, in theory

So, basicly meaning.. They could do it on paper, but in real life they wouldn't.. No source needed for that.
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Molykote
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RE: Whats Going On With This 777

Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:24 am

Quoting F14D4ever (Reply 11):
Neither a FADEC upload nor a tweak of flight control software will suffice for this. Even if you could upload software to a GEnx that would make it respond to the throttle input (and numerous other input channels) indentically to a Trent, or vice versa, you'd still get asymmetric thrust at identical throttle setting because of nacelle differences.

It would also be interesting to see instrumentation split between EPR and N1  spin .

F14:

Although I am not surprised to see hear responses affirming my speculation on engine type intermixes, what further information can you provide as to why the control issues between engine types would be such a problem?

Given that engines are rarely operating with identical secondary parameters anyway (with primary parameter being thrust - measured via either rotor speed for pressure ratio) what is the inherent problem with trimming a mixed engine configuration? Quite often I see intermixes of new/old engines with substantially different parameters in operation.

I am comfortable with the design features of nacelles for the big 3 engine manufacturers and appreciate how nacelle shapes and nozzles may affect thrust but I see no reason why two different engines designed for similar applications cannot exert similar reaction forces on the a/c pylon.

I am also not quite following your comment about "identical throttle settings" being impossible due to nacelle differences. I am not a pilot but my understanding was that the throttle position represents a "commanded" thrust setting (typically correlated to N1 or EPR per a manufacturer's custom). As I (perhaps incorrectly) understand this situation, all that would be required to ensure symmetric thrust between intermixed engines is a correlation of throttle maps between engines. Although such a throttle mapping would not be a simple linear adjustment, I don't see the creation of such a throttle map as a very large problem (realizing that I'm not calling it simple addition either).

Apart from the nacelle differences you mention (which I do not mean to trivialize), it seems to me that we would simply be addressing an instance of providing slightly more or slightly less fuel flow to one engine over another (perhaps with or without a crossover point depending on the fuel burn properties of each engine) in order to equalize reaction forces at the pylon. I would expect this to easily be within the capabilities of an EEC.

To summarize this rant of mine, I don't see a need or practical use for intermixing an engines on a 787 but I don't see a large problem in getting two competing/common engines to operate in concert at given thrust settings.
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Molykote
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RE: Whats Going On With This 777

Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:33 am

Quoting Morvious (Reply 12):
So, basicly meaning.. They could do it on paper, but in real life they wouldn't.. No source needed for that.

That's a pretty short and effective summation of my rantings on this thread!


Taking a closer look at the statement that promted my commentary:

Quoting Warreng24 (Reply 6):
So, in theory a 787 could operate one day with a GE engine and the next day with a RR. Or you could have a RR on the port side and a GE on the starboard side. You'd just need to tweak the flight control software to compensate.

.... I believe I may have misinterpreted the intent of Warreng24's statement.

I read his statement about a GE config one day and an RR the next "in theory" (which is roughly the intent of the common pylon as I understand it - and should be particularly useful to leasing companies I would assume).
I easily accept this.

I then read....
"Or you could have a RR on the port side and a GE on the starboard side." as its own sentence and apparently misread the comment as a firm statement (rather than being attached to the "in theory" text preceeding).

Hope my comments did not appear to be nasty or nit picking as it was not my intent.
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ourboeing
Posts: 328
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RE: Whats Going On With This 777

Tue Oct 17, 2006 3:14 am

Someone should contact one of the airlines in India and they will take this 777 out of its misery in a heartbeat..

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futurecaptain
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RE: Whats Going On With This 777

Tue Oct 17, 2006 3:33 am

Quoting Warreng24 (Reply 6):
You always want to have more engines leased than aircraft.

I'm hoping for a 777 fleet the ratio is somewhere around 2:1. 2 leased engines for every 1 leased airframe.  Smile

Although Varig seem to be going for a 1:1 ratio.
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jfk777
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RE: Whats Going On With This 777

Tue Oct 17, 2006 7:21 am

IS this a non ER 777 or is it an ER 777 ? It probably is non ER since AeroMexico took the 2 ER 777 Varig had. If anyone can shed any light I woyld appreciate it.
 
AlitaliaMD11
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RE: Whats Going On With This 777

Tue Oct 17, 2006 8:41 am

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 17):
IS this a non ER 777 or is it an ER 777 ? It probably is non ER since AeroMexico took the 2 ER 777 Varig had. If anyone can shed any light I woyld appreciate it.

She's an ER, ex-United bird.
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474218
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RE: Whats Going On With This 777

Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:40 am

Quoting RamerinianAir (Reply 8):
Another interesting fact about aircraft/engine leasing:
The enigines are the most expensive part of the aircraft (generally). It is common to see airlines with poor credit leasing different aircraft and components from seperate companies. Also, aircraft insurance is the same way. Since, it's a large risk, usually there will be many companies on the policy covering the aircraft.

If you lease an aircraft the leasing company also owns the engines. You may go to a separate company to lease spare engines. No one is going to lease an airframe minus engines.

One possible reason for the Vraig 777 sitting, is that when the aircraft are returned to the lessor, they must have the same engines installed as it had when it was leased. The engine for that 777 may be on another 777 or being overhauled/repaired and it take times to get the engines and the airframes at the same place at the same time.

Additionally the engine is the second most expensive part of a the aircraft, after the airframe.
 
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iahcsr
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RE: Whats Going On With This 777

Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:12 am

Quoting AlitaliaMD11 (Reply 18):
She's an ER, ex-United bird

This one has ... well.. did.. have PW engines. The two now AM machines are GE.
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