leelaw
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EK Sends In Auditors To Assess New A380 Schedule

Mon Oct 16, 2006 8:21 pm

Flight International, 17 October 2006, by Nicholas Ionides:

Biggest Airline Customer Wants To find Out If Airbus's Revised Timetable Is Realistic

...Emirates Airline president Time Clark told Flight International: "We really need to see how much credibility there is with regards to the new delivery timings." He adds: "We have a team going there to audit their [production processes] in the middle of next month."

Clark says the team of four or five Emirates representatives will be "mainly from the engineering side of the airline." While acknowledging that they are not experts in airframe manufacturing, he says it is hoped they will be able to determine whether Airbus's new delivery schedules are achievable...


Trust But Verify  Smile
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SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: EK Sends In Auditors To Assess New A380 Schedule

Mon Oct 16, 2006 8:30 pm

Charming (!).

Airbus has no choice but to acceed to this unorthodox intrusion. However, these are certainly unorthodox times at the manufacturer.

I wonder if he's kind enough to let us know the findings.
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NAV20
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RE: EK Sends In Auditors To Assess New A380 Schedule

Mon Oct 16, 2006 9:57 pm

This could be a VERY important development............
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Stitch
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RE: EK Sends In Auditors To Assess New A380 Schedule

Mon Oct 16, 2006 10:01 pm

Not sure what EK's "auditors" will be able to find out, but looks like Clark is keeping the heat on.
 
NAV20
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RE: EK Sends In Auditors To Assess New A380 Schedule

Mon Oct 16, 2006 10:03 pm

Stitch, on Airbus/EADS' recent form, I think we all of us pretty well know already what the auditors are likely to find.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
georgiaame
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RE: EK Sends In Auditors To Assess New A380 Schedule

Mon Oct 16, 2006 10:06 pm

Do I hear the fat lady clearing her throat?
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Lumberton
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RE: EK Sends In Auditors To Assess New A380 Schedule

Mon Oct 16, 2006 10:09 pm

Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 6):
Do I hear the fat lady clearing her throat?

More like Clark covering his uh...position.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
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Revelation
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RE: EK Sends In Auditors To Assess New A380 Schedule

Mon Oct 16, 2006 10:14 pm

It's hard to know what is going on inside Airbus these days. Hopefully everyone is minding to their knitting, but one has to wonder if they all aren't wondering if and when they are going to be hit by the Power 8 eight ball. The audit seems like a very prudent thing to do.
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RE: EK Sends In Auditors To Assess New A380 Schedule

Mon Oct 16, 2006 10:58 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 8):
It's hard to know what is going on inside Airbus these days. Hopefully everyone is minding to their knitting, but one has to wonder if they all aren't wondering if and when they are going to be hit by the Power 8 eight ball. The audit seems like a very prudent thing to do.

I would bet a large amount of money that this latest delay is the absolute maximum that they think could happen with probably a 100% margin of error built in as they know they can't possibly have any more cock-ups!
 
NAV20
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RE: EK Sends In Auditors To Assess New A380 Schedule

Mon Oct 16, 2006 11:03 pm

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 9):
the absolute maximum that they think could happen

Or the absolute minimum that they felt they HAD to admit to, Scouseflyer.

Worth remembering that the A380 problems haven't been SOLVED yet. Therefore all anyone can do is ESTIMATE how long they will take to fix, and how long it will then take to work up to full production.
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lightsaber
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RE: EK Sends In Auditors To Assess New A380 Schedule

Mon Oct 16, 2006 11:05 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 4):
Not sure what EK's "auditors" will be able to find out, but looks like Clark is keeping the heat on.

If EK doesn't have engineers who understand manufacturing schedule planning, they certainly could go out and hire a few dozen.

This puts Airbus on notice and forces them to present the detailed schedule. If you've ever seen an aircraft build schedule, its quite detailed. Good ones are broken down to single shift detail (usually multiple technicians per sub-task).

So the engineers will tour the line and compare the promise to the schedule. They'll start asking lots of questions: "You ripped out that part for access, why isn't there any time budgeted to put it back in properly?"

If EK is smart, they'll keep on the pressure until they have an earlier delivery slot.

Lightsaber
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Ken777
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RE: EK Sends In Auditors To Assess New A380 Schedule

Mon Oct 16, 2006 11:15 pm

Airbus appears to be a bit lax is communicating with their customers - we seem to get a lot of information from leaks and/or rumors before the airlines are told. The EK audit is one way to improve that communication level to the point where they are aware of developing problems as the leaks are being composed.

Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 1):
Airbus has no choice but to acceed to this unorthodox intrusion.

I have a feeling that it may be very common in the future regarding the 380 program - especially for the larger customers.
 
Lumberton
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RE: EK Sends In Auditors To Assess New A380 Schedule

Mon Oct 16, 2006 11:18 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 12):
Airbus appears to be a bit lax is communicating with their customers - we seem to get a lot of information from leaks and/or rumors before the airlines are told. The EK audit is one way to improve that communication

Above all else, EK has stopped accepting information from Toulouse at face value. There is a serious credibility problem here for Airbus, that could (emphasize "could" not "will") carry over into the long awaited mid body order.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
justloveplanes
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RE: EK Sends In Auditors To Assess New A380 Schedule

Mon Oct 16, 2006 11:28 pm

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 9):
I would bet a large amount of money that this latest delay is the absolute maximum that they think could happen with probably a 100% margin of error built in as they know they can't possibly have any more cock-ups!

 checkmark   checkmark 

I think this is most likely as well. A new harness design from scratch using an integrated CAD system is what I would guess they have scheduled - no shortcuts planned and my guess is none will be taken. That means it won't be late, but probably won't be too much early either. A seems to have dodged the main bullets if they keep their schedule, so I think they will take no risks in getting there.

JLP
 
leelaw
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RE: EK Sends In Auditors To Assess New A380 Schedu

Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:09 am

The full text of the FI article quoted in the threadstarter is now available online:

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...n+auditors+to+assess+new+A380.html

[Edited 2006-10-16 18:19:21]
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Poitin
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RE: EK Sends In Auditors To Assess New A380 Schedule

Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:19 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 13):
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 12):
Airbus appears to be a bit lax is communicating with their customers - we seem to get a lot of information from leaks and/or rumors before the airlines are told. The EK audit is one way to improve that communication

Above all else, EK has stopped accepting information from Toulouse at face value. There is a serious credibility problem here for Airbus, that could (emphasize "could" not "will") carry over into the long awaited mid body order.

The issue I see is not that there was a total cockup, but what are they (Airbus/EADS) doing to fix the problems? What has happened is water under the bridge, but what will happen is controllable.

"Definitely no decisions have been made."

It not very encouraging.  no 
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zvezda
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RE: EK Sends In Auditors To Assess New A380 Schedule

Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:30 am

I expect one of the first things they will want to see is a demonstration of the interoperability (or lack thereof) of CATIA v4 and v5. The big decision Airbus need to make is whether or not to upgrade all the designers to v5.
 
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Stitch
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RE: EK Sends In Auditors To Assess New A380 Schedule

Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:50 am

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 11):
If EK is smart, they'll keep on the pressure until they have an earlier delivery slot.

How early can they get? They're already third in line after SQ and QF. EY has four birds already built and flying, but as I understand it they all need significant re-work which is why EY will be later then QF and EK's new builds.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: EK Sends In Auditors To Assess New A380 Schedule

Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:59 am

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 9):
I would bet a large amount of money that this latest delay is the absolute maximum that they think could happen with probably a 100% margin of error built in as they know they can't possibly have any more cock-ups!



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 10):
Or the absolute minimum that they felt they HAD to admit to, Scouseflyer.

Worth remembering that the A380 problems haven't been SOLVED yet. Therefore all anyone can do is ESTIMATE how long they will take to fix, and how long it will then take to work up to full production.

My gut tells me that they have absolutely no desire to face another delay. It would be insane, and I can't imagine anyone in an organization as large and professional as Airbus purposefully misleading again and again and again.

Having said that, my brain knows that if they can keep stringing their customers along, it will make it impossible for them to have a replacement order made, as they weren't expecting to need it. It allows Airbus to maintain the orders (at a price), perhaps hawk a few A330/340's as interim lift, and still cause pain to Boeing and the 748I.

I'm going with my gut, though.

-Dave
-Dave
 
Poitin
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RE: EK Sends In Auditors To Assess New A380 Schedule

Tue Oct 17, 2006 2:10 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 17):
I expect one of the first things they will want to see is a demonstration of the interoperability (or lack thereof) of CATIA v4 and v5. The big decision Airbus need to make is whether or not to upgrade all the designers to v5.

As I understand it, the ACE conversion tool does not work, so they have to use one version of CATIA or the other. The "obvious" choice would be to give CATIA V5 to the Hamburg A380 designers. Unfortunately, from what has been said in previous threads. CATIA V5 is very much a different animal than V4, and requires quite a bit of training to use, even if you are using V4, because instead of using wireframe, it uses volumes.

That means months of delay before they can even start to document the wiring, and possibly months of delay as they design each of the various configurations.

A far quicker solution would be to move the entire A380 to Toulouse and onto V5 -- a suggestion that got at least one CEO fired.
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zvezda
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RE: EK Sends In Auditors To Assess New A380 Schedu

Tue Oct 17, 2006 2:37 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 20):
As I understand it, the ACE conversion tool does not work, so they have to use one version of CATIA or the other. The "obvious" choice would be to give CATIA V5 to the Hamburg A380 designers. Unfortunately, from what has been said in previous threads. CATIA V5 is very much a different animal than V4, and requires quite a bit of training to use, even if you are using V4, because instead of using wireframe, it uses volumes.

That means months of delay before they can even start to document the wiring, and possibly months of delay as they design each of the various configurations.

A far quicker solution would be to move the entire A380 to Toulouse and onto V5 -- a suggestion that got at least one CEO fired.

If the decision were mine, based on the information available to me (which is not complete), I would upgrade everyone to CATIA v5. The advantages are:
- it ensures these CATIA incompatibility problems do not afflict future programs such as the A350
- the cost in time and money are reasonably predictable
- the delay to the WhaleJet program becomes more predictable
- it would facilitate certification of the WhaleJet
- it doesn't stir up labour unrest, and
- it would give a bit of confidence to the customers.
 
TeamAmerica
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RE: EK Sends In Auditors To Assess New A380 Schedule

Tue Oct 17, 2006 2:41 am

Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 1):
I wonder if he's kind enough to let us know the findings.

Kindness will have nothing to do with it. If nothing is said, EK must be satisfied with the audit. If not satisfied, it will be made apparent by their actions.

Quoting Poitin (Reply 20):
A far quicker solution would be to move the entire A380 to Toulouse and onto V5 -- a suggestion that got at least one CEO fired.

In a perfect world, maybe. In the real world, political forces will prevent this from happening quickly, if at all.
Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
 
Poitin
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RE: EK Sends In Auditors To Assess New A380 Schedule

Tue Oct 17, 2006 2:43 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 21):
If the decision were mine, based on the information available to me (which is not complete), I would upgrade everyone to CATIA v5.

I would leave V4 in place for the current aircraft that are in production, but go to V5 for the A380 and the A350. It is a known risk and cost. I agree with all of your points.

However, have they decided ANYTHING? I know Streiff told them to go to V5, but with him gone, who is there to enforce it?

"Definitely no decisions have been made."
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andessmf
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RE: EK Sends In Auditors To Assess New A380 Schedule

Tue Oct 17, 2006 2:46 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 17):
I expect one of the first things they will want to see is a demonstration of the interoperability (or lack thereof) of CATIA v4 and v5. The big decision Airbus need to make is whether or not to upgrade all the designers to v5.

But wouldnt a software changeover and the additional training required also take more time? It might still be worth it for them.

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 22):
If nothing is said, EK must be satisfied with the audit.

If you spent untold billions in a new airplane, IMHO, you have the right to demand whatever you want from Airbus. In this case, it makes sense that EK wants their own people to tell them what they are facing. It is good planning, just to see where they need to be on their fleet planning.
 
Poitin
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RE: EK Sends In Auditors To Assess New A380 Schedu

Tue Oct 17, 2006 2:55 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 24):
I expect one of the first things they will want to see is a demonstration of the interoperability (or lack thereof) of CATIA v4 and v5. The big decision Airbus need to make is whether or not to upgrade all the designers to v5.

But wouldnt a software changeover and the additional training required also take more time? It might still be worth it for them.

Had they done this two years ago, we would be flying around in A380's. They tried for the cheap quick fix -- a conversion program -- and got bit by reality.

IBM could have a training staff in Hamburg tomorrow, and have everyone needing training trained according to a KNOWN schedule. What is the current schedule for the A380 -- "Definitely no decisions have been made."
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Wahoo
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RE: EK Sends In Auditors To Assess New A380 Schedule

Tue Oct 17, 2006 3:01 am

The more and more I read about this the more I think Airbus should consider splitting itself into separate companies. Maybe a third player in the market if you will. Possibly a French company based in Toulouse and a German company based in Hamburg. At least that would solve the Catia dispute.
 
zvezda
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RE: EK Sends In Auditors To Assess New A380 Schedu

Tue Oct 17, 2006 3:02 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 24):
But wouldnt a software changeover and the additional training required also take more time? It might still be worth it for them.

Conversion to v5 would take a relatively predictable time rather than an unpredictable time to complete a working design using incompatible software. In other words, it would replace a problem without a known solution with a problem having a well-understood (though painful) solution. Put another way, there would be a more-or-less bounded amount of pain to finish, rather than an unbounded amount of pain.
 
kanebear
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RE: EK Sends In Auditors To Assess New A380 Schedule

Tue Oct 17, 2006 3:06 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 21):
If the decision were mine, based on the information available to me (which is not complete), I would upgrade everyone to CATIA v5. The advantages are:
- it ensures these CATIA incompatibility problems do not afflict future programs such as the A350
- the cost in time and money are reasonably predictable
- the delay to the WhaleJet program becomes more predictable
- it would facilitate certification of the WhaleJet
- it doesn't stir up labour unrest, and
- it would give a bit of confidence to the customers.

Such conversions are dangerous. You can set timelines for training, etc but you'll always have unknowns and problems that crop up. Some can be fatal. I'm in the dark as to this specific issue but the major question to me is whether or not the project can be finished on CATIA v4 or not. If it can be, it should be entirely. Save v5 for once the 380 is out the door. They need to REDUCE their variables and potential landmines, not increase them. On something that complex, there's sure to be quite a few landmines.
 
sphealey
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RE: EK Sends In Auditors To Assess New A380 Schedule

Tue Oct 17, 2006 3:12 am

> Airbus has no choice but to acceed to
> this unorthodox intrusion.

I take it you don't work for a company that supplies automotive, aerospace, or large big-box (Wal-Mart, Home Depot) customers; these types of audits became the norm in the 1985-1990 time period. Sears Roebuck had been doing them for decades before that, concentrating on supplier long-term profitability (they didn't want their key suppliers to go bankrupt in the middle of a contract).

sPh
 
Poitin
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RE: EK Sends In Auditors To Assess New A380 Schedule

Tue Oct 17, 2006 3:15 am

Quoting Kanebear (Reply 28):
Such conversions are dangerous. You can set timelines for training, etc but you'll always have unknowns and problems that crop up. Some can be fatal. I'm in the dark as to this specific issue but the major question to me is whether or not the project can be finished on CATIA v4 or not. If it can be, it should be entirely. Save v5 for once the 380 is out the door. They need to REDUCE their variables and potential landmines, not increase them. On something that complex, there's sure to be quite a few landmines.

Unfortunately, you missed the issue -- Toulouse used V5 and Hamburg used V4. It would mean redoing everything Toulouse did in V5 because it can't be converted to V4. The two versions use fundamentally different technologies. They tried the conversion tool route and discovered that it couldn't be done.

Since half of Airbus is already using V5, you can't call it an UNKNOWN.
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osiris30
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RE: EK Sends In Auditors To Assess New A380 Schedule

Tue Oct 17, 2006 3:21 am

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 9):
I would bet a large amount of money that this latest delay is the absolute maximum that they think could happen with probably a 100% margin of error built in as they know they can't possibly have any more cock-ups!

No I think it was the sum of the assessments handed in by a bunch of folks trying to save their jobs. I think the reality may be worse yet and furthermore, the change of CEOs and all the other noise hasn't helped anyone focus.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 10):
Or the absolute minimum that they felt they HAD to admit to, Scouseflyer.

Worth remembering that the A380 problems haven't been SOLVED yet. Therefore all anyone can do is ESTIMATE how long they will take to fix, and how long it will then take to work up to full production.

 checkmark 

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 13):
Above all else, EK has stopped accepting information from Toulouse at face value. There is a serious credibility problem here for Airbus, that could (emphasize "could" not "will") carry over into the long awaited mid body order.

Also makes you wonder what else EK has 'heard through the grapevine' that would cause them to go to the trouble and expense of doing this. Obviously something has happened recently we aren't all privy too... first of all Virgin and their 'final offer' to Airbus on the 380 and then this.. all within a day or two.. something stinks.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 19):
My gut tells me that they have absolutely no desire to face another delay. It would be insane,

Have we been watching the same circus? LOL? The whole thing has been insane. I don't think they desired to face the first delay, and I'm sure they had less desire to face the second.. Kind of a silly statement (no offense). The first should have been bad enough.
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PlanesNTrains
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RE: EK Sends In Auditors To Assess New A380 Schedule

Tue Oct 17, 2006 3:33 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 31):
Have we been watching the same circus?

All three rings.

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 31):
The whole thing has been insane.

It has been an unfortunate and embarrassing saga for Airbus to be sure.

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 31):
I don't think they desired to face the first delay, and I'm sure they had less desire to face the second.. Kind of a silly statement (no offense). The first should have been bad enough.

I think Airbus is past the denial phase, though, which eliminates the underlying motivation to make it all sound rosy when it's not. They've swollowed their pride (in a sense) and pushed out the delay to allow for the problem to be corrected.

At this stage, I sincerely doubt that ANYONE at Airbus it going to purposefully set themselves up for a further delay - that would, IMHO, be "insane".

-Dave
-Dave
 
Poitin
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RE: EK Sends In Auditors To Assess New A380 Schedule

Tue Oct 17, 2006 3:36 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 31):
Also makes you wonder what else EK has 'heard through the grapevine' that would cause them to go to the trouble and expense of doing this. Obviously something has happened recently we aren't all privy too... first of all Virgin and their 'final offer' to Airbus on the 380 and then this.. all within a day or two.. something stinks.

The grapevine is shaking with rumors of all sorts, some of which I've heard. However, as they are rumors, I will ignore them.

Still, there is a definite plume of smoke bellowing up from Airbus and one has to wonder just what is causing it. It is about time that Tim Clark used due diligence and audited what is going on.

The big issue is the definite lack of concrete decisions. That has many people in the airline industry very upset. For a while, they had hope Streiff would do what was needed.

Sometime ago I predicted that Streiff would be fired, EADS will discover that they need him and he will return. There are some in the airline industry insisting that that happen. However, I doubt Christian will come back.

It will be very interesting to see what comes out of VS's "Final Offer."
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airfoilsguy
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RE: EK Sends In Auditors To Assess New A380 Schedule

Tue Oct 17, 2006 3:52 am

Maybe Airbus should rename the A380 to the Tucker.  duck 
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jacobin777
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RE: EK Sends In Auditors To Assess New A380 Schedule

Tue Oct 17, 2006 4:03 am

According to Flightinternational.com, SQ has a team there at TLS already for the past few months and do believe that so far, the only problem is the stated wiring imbroglio....
"Up the Irons!"
 
DAYflyer
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RE: EK Sends In Auditors To Assess New A380 Schedule

Tue Oct 17, 2006 4:13 am

Interesting indeed.

Nothing quite so uncomfortable as a major customer (or the IRS) looking up your backside with a microscope.
One Nation Under God
 
TeamAmerica
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RE: EK Sends In Auditors To Assess New A380 Schedule

Tue Oct 17, 2006 4:20 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 24):
If you spent untold billions in a new airplane, IMHO, you have the right to demand whatever you want from Airbus. In this case, it makes sense that EK wants their own people to tell them what they are facing. It is good planning, just to see where they need to be on their fleet planning.

Not sure what you're responding to. I was saying that we may not be privy to the results of EK's audit, but we don't need to be. If nothing more is said we must assume that EK saw enough to be satisfied. If they are not satisfied with the audit, we will know it because EK will either plainly announce it or they will do something that makes it very apparent.
Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
 
osiris30
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RE: EK Sends In Auditors To Assess New A380 Schedule

Tue Oct 17, 2006 4:37 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 32):
I think Airbus is past the denial phase, though, which eliminates the underlying motivation to make it all sound rosy when it's not. They've swollowed their pride (in a sense) and pushed out the delay to allow for the problem to be corrected.

See I just can't believe that. They gave us the 'worst' news at least once already. Sorry but they've totally shot my ability to trust anything that comes out of there..

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 32):
They've swollowed their pride

I still see a decent amount of denial in their releases.. the things they say 'no decisions yet', yada, yada, yada... 'we may have to make tough decisions' instead of 'we ARE MAKING tough decisions'.

Time will tell.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
dvautier
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RE: EK Sends In Auditors To Assess New A380 Schedule

Tue Oct 17, 2006 4:39 am

I think that the biggest problem facing Airbus right now is stabilizing and documenting their assembly process. Every single step in the assembly of a plane has to follow a checklist, and then has to be inspected, sometimes multiple times, and signed off. All this documentation (rooms full of it) has to be kept by the manufacturer for possible future accident investigation. If this documentation is not done properly, the manufacturer runs a real risk of de-certification--not good.

Also when an airplane is delivered there are tons and tons of stuff that go with the plane; wiring manuals, schematic manuals, maintenance, flight manuals, logs, etc, etc. If these documents are not available and accurate, the plane cannot be delivered.

Incidentally there are no two commercial planes that have the same wiring, so you begin to see the difficulties involved in any new model introduction.

I should think that the team going to Airbus from EK will be taking copious notes.  zzz 
 
osiris30
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RE: EK Sends In Auditors To Assess New A380 Schedule

Tue Oct 17, 2006 5:19 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 33):
The grapevine is shaking with rumors of all sorts, some of which I've heard. However, as they are rumors, I will ignore them.

Still, there is a definite plume of smoke bellowing up from Airbus and one has to wonder just what is causing it. It is about time that Tim Clark used due diligence and audited what is going on.

Care to share the rumors? (with appropriate caveats ofcourse). I'd be curious since I've heard little to nothing lately... (although I've been admitedly quite busy with many things and haven't had my ear planted on the ground like I would normally).

Quoting Poitin (Reply 33):
The big issue is the definite lack of concrete decisions. That has many people in the airline industry very upset. For a while, they had hope Streiff would do what was needed.

It just shows the ability of management to manage, which means as things go wrong they will stay wrong until they are a huge problem.. (sound familiar). That would make me nervous too.
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RE: EK Sends In Auditors To Assess New A380 Schedule

Tue Oct 17, 2006 6:10 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 21):
f the decision were mine, based on the information available to me (which is not complete), I would upgrade everyone to CATIA v5.

Are you proposing that all the A380 parts designed in CATIA v4 be redone mannualy in CATIA v5 - to me that would be a HUGE engineering effort.
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RE: EK Sends In Auditors To Assess New A380 Schedule

Tue Oct 17, 2006 6:15 am

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 41):
Are you proposing that all the A380 parts designed in CATIA v4 be redone mannualy in CATIA v5 - to me that would be a HUGE engineering effort.

I meant the wiring. Please accept my apologies for not being more clear. I also meant that new projects e.g. A350 should be done entirely in CATIA v5.
 
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RE: EK Sends In Auditors To Assess New A380 Schedule

Tue Oct 17, 2006 7:11 am

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
Clark says the team of four or five Emirates representatives will be "mainly from the engineering side of the airline." While acknowledging that they are not experts in airframe manufacturing, he says it is hoped they will be able to determine whether Airbus's new delivery schedules are achievable...

Yes... and...

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 35):
According to Flightinternational.com, SQ has a team there at TLS already for the past few months and do believe that so far, the only problem is the stated wiring imbroglio....

Yes.

What I find interesting is that these airlines hadn't placed permanent staff to liaise with the manufacturer.

I know that back in the "olden days" Qantas and TAA had engineers on site as the aircraft were being constructed so they would know of any issues and ensure they were getting the aircraft they wanted.

In the Viscount and VC10 days, the Vickers factory had "airline alley" where all the airlines had offices for their staff that were on site.

Is this no longer common? Or is it particular to Airbus? Or... did Emirates and SQ drop the ball by having no-one there? Strikes me as insane that you'd not have one of your own staff on the ground when you're spending potentially billions of dollars...
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atmx2000
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RE: EK Sends In Auditors To Assess New A380 Schedule

Tue Oct 17, 2006 7:46 am

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 43):
Is this no longer common? Or is it particular to Airbus? Or... did Emirates and SQ drop the ball by having no-one there? Strikes me as insane that you'd not have one of your own staff on the ground when you're spending potentially billions of dollars...

Which plant would you send them to?
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RE: EK Sends In Auditors To Assess New A380 Schedu

Tue Oct 17, 2006 7:46 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 42):
Quoting Baron95 (Reply 41):
Are you proposing that all the A380 parts designed in CATIA v4 be redone mannualy in CATIA v5 - to me that would be a HUGE engineering effort.

I meant the wiring. Please accept my apologies for not being more clear. I also meant that new projects e.g. A350 should be done entirely in CATIA v5.

Part of the problem is the front and rear sections of the airframe where done in Hamburg on V4, so the wiring fits those sections, but not those designed and built in Toulouse. I hope some of you remember the Discovery show when they were fitting the first pieces together and things didn't quite fit. The camera cut and then magically the pieces fit. What they didn't show was the grinding that occured. The first several airframes were in fact "hand fitted" by craftsmen in the true oldworld tradition of fine handcraftsmenship.

Hopefully they have that part of the problem resolved.

Having a handfitted airframe that flys and a production line are two different things. They may well have problems that go beyond wires. I do not know that they do, but the possibility is there.

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 40):
Care to share the rumors? (with appropriate caveats of course).

Of the several RUMORS that I have heard through a personal friend indicate that Airbus may well still have not copped to everything. There are a number of rumors floating around both Toulouse and Hamburg coming from lower-level people. Part of Airbus' problem is it is a top-down organization, so the lower-level people aren't listened to and their managers do a great deal of CYA.

It is in large part to these rumors that Tim Clark sent in his team of trouble finders. I don't have any details.

I think we must wait and let time play this out. Hopefully, we can all get on the first A380 in a year's time.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 42):
I also meant that new projects e.g. A350 should be done entirely in CATIA v5.

They have figured that one out, you will be happy to hear.
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RE: EK Sends In Auditors To Assess New A380 Schedu

Tue Oct 17, 2006 8:10 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 18):

How early can they get? They're already third in line after SQ and QF. EY has four birds already built and flying, but as I understand it they all need significant re-work which is why EY will be later then QF and EK's new builds.

How early? Not ahead of SQ and QF, but by placing enough pressure, EK can ensure that staff that would be utilized getting EY's birds converted are instead focused on expediting the first EK birds. Astute management will expidite 1st-4th delivery by 3 to 5 months.

Quoting Poitin (Reply 45):

Part of the problem is the front and rear sections of the airframe where done in Hamburg on V4, so the wiring fits those sections, but not those designed and built in Toulouse. I hope some of you remember the Discovery show when they were fitting the first pieces together and things didn't quite fit. The camera cut and then magically the pieces fit. What they didn't show was the grinding that occured. The first several airframes were in fact "hand fitted" by craftsmen in the true oldworld tradition of fine handcraftsmenship.

Let me add my voice to the chorus: Get everyone onto V5! Painfull? Yes, but required.

Handcrafted?  wideeyed  That's ok for a production run up to about 10... But after that the expense can no longer be justified. Airbus will fix that problem. However, its going to keep the resale of the first airframes down. I hope EY negotiated as well as rumored...

Quoting ClassicLover (Reply 43):
I know that back in the "olden days" Qantas and TAA had engineers on site as the aircraft were being constructed so they would know of any issues and ensure they were getting the aircraft they wanted.

In the Viscount and VC10 days, the Vickers factory had "airline alley" where all the airlines had offices for their staff that were on site.

Its less common than before. Airlines have cut staff. The reality is that it can take a staff of 10 to 12 to monitor the construction of each airframe; that is assuming that the staff was monitoring components for months before delivery. Thus, were talking an added cost per airframe of a few million dollars.  weeping  For most production aircraft it isn't worth it anymore. Apparently EK is going "old school."

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RE: EK Sends In Auditors To Assess New A380 Schedule

Tue Oct 17, 2006 8:56 am

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 46):
Its less common than before. Airlines have cut staff. The reality is that it can take a staff of 10 to 12 to monitor the construction of each airframe; that is assuming that the staff was monitoring components for months before delivery. Thus, were talking an added cost per airframe of a few million dollars.

Well, there's my dream job; to get paid to watch people build and test airplanes. I'd be a total workaholic and do it for way less than a million. Just give me an AirPass and a per diem. cloudnine 
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RE: EK Sends In Auditors To Assess New A380 Schedu

Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:54 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 20):
As I understand it, the ACE conversion tool does not work, so they have to use one version of CATIA or the other. The "obvious" choice would be to give CATIA V5 to the Hamburg A380 designers. Unfortunately, from what has been said in previous threads. CATIA V5 is very much a different animal than V4, and requires quite a bit of training to use, even if you are using V4, because instead of using wireframe, it uses volumes.

One should consider some recent a.net postings:
RE: A380 Debacle: It's The Software, Stupid! (by Dvautier Oct 3 2006 in Civil Aviation)?searchid=3021239&s=dvautier#ID3021239

Quote:

Airplane wiring is extremely specialized because the FAA has very strict codes for voltages, clearances, interference, drip loops, etc. That’s why it’s so hard to 3D program the things. Ford and GM have been doing successful 3D wiring for many years in cars. But there is a huge difference. If you study a wire bundle in a car and compare it to an airplane bundle, you will see what I mean.

RE: A380 Debacle: It's The Software, Stupid! (by Dvautier Oct 3 2006 in Civil Aviation)?searchid=3019419&s=dvautier#ID3019419

Quote:

1) The wiring features in CATIA were poor at best and Dassault had no plans to spend a lot of money on specialized wiring software for just one user (Boeing). Wires are difficult to program and design in 3D because they are essentially a 2D entity developed for a 3D environment. You go from 3D to 2D for manufacturing, and then back to 3D. It's not easy to conceptualize or even program and it’s way different from CATIA tubing, which did work well.



Quote:
It became obvious to us at Boeing around 1986 that we could not accomplish the wiring on CATIA with the existing software, nor was there any prospect in the near or distant future that Dassault was willing or able to invest in such specialized software. So we used our old WIRS system on the 777 with satisfactory results. We became very good at “workarounds”.

Since my strong interest at the time was in 3D wiring, I got heavily involved in a project called ASGR in 1985 that attempted to do just that: 3D wiring. The project was moderately successful but pointed out many problems inherent in this application (isolation, drip loops, current, voltage, etc.). It was a horrible nightmare. I strongly suggested afterwards to the company that the specialized wiring required in airplane design was not available in CATIA or anywhere else, and should not be considered for future CAD design.

Digital use of CATIA for hard parts on the 777 was quite successful but way over budget, and, thankfully, we never attempted to do 3D wiring on CATIA.

I don’t think that Airbus made any serious mistake using different versions of software for hard parts. That is merely an excuse but it does make good news reporting since people can understand it. But the underlying cause of Airbus troubles is that they did not understand the nature of 3D wiring. Their big mistake was to assume that CATIA could do wiring. Dassault did not have the resources nor the will to do it 30 years ago and I don’t think they have it today.[quote]

Streiff's comments in his 'Power8' speech certainly do not imply use of CATIA v5, instead CATIA v4 and other tools are indicated:[quote]Right Tools: Since the concurrent engineering tools are at the heart of the problem, I took the decision in July to launch the immediate implementation of the best and most uniform tools and practices on all sites. Tools such as CatiaV4, CIRCE and GILDA, which have already demonstrated their robustness on other sites, are being put in place throughout the A380 centres of excellence – and the Airbus professionals in those sites will be trained to use them effectively.

So, it seems to me:

  • Neither Boeing or Airbus are using CATIA v5 for wiring
  • Airbus's recovery plan for the A380 will use CATIA v4, not CATIA v5
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RE: EK Sends In Auditors To Assess New A380 Schedule

Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:01 am

Also from the article:

Quoting Flight International,reply=:
Singapore Airlines (SIA), which is to be the first operator of the A380, says it has also been closely monitoring production-related issues at Airbus. "We've had engineers on the ground in Toulouse for a few months now, because the aircraft that are on the line right now are predominantly going to be delivered to us, so we have a good reason to have teams working with Airbus engineers as the project develops," it says.

"We also have a good understanding of the progress of the aircraft toward certification, which gives us a level of satisfaction that the problems are, as they say, production, not technical."

SIA adds: "We don't so much see their role as supervisory or audit, but to identify and resolve issues - particularly customer-related ones - which arise during the production of our aircraft and the certification of the A380."
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RE: EK Sends In Auditors To Assess New A380 Schedu

Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:59 pm

Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 49):
"We also have a good understanding of the progress of the aircraft toward certification, which gives us a level of satisfaction that the problems are, as they say, production, not technical."

SQ has been repeating this mantra since the second major program program delay was announced this past June. If there aren't any "technical" problems why are their deliveries being deferred a minimum of an additional ten months?
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