pdxintl
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PDX To 2nd And 3rd Tier Hubs

Tue Oct 17, 2006 7:40 am

Thinking about the PDX domestic route network, I noticed that it lacks service to a variety of 2nd and 3rd tier hubs throughout the United States. The cities that come to mind are:

AA: STL (discontinued in STL downsizing)
CO: CLE
NW: MEM, DTW (while not 2nd or 3rd tier it is nonetheless seasonal)
DL: JFK (discontinued after Asia pullout)
US/HP: CLT


Wondering if the addition of the above mentioned routes might jeapordize those already in place? Would DL sink B6 if they offered JFK, ect.? PDX is underserved and I would think that the demand would be there if these routings were offered. I applaud AS for two new Mexico destinations, but they have definitly dropped the ball with service to the East Coast from PDX. Thoughts?
 
B6WNQX
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RE: PDX To 2nd And 3rd Tier Hubs

Tue Oct 17, 2006 8:22 am

B6 definitely has a great load factor for their PDX-JFK flight, although I do not know how the yields are. I think DL could fly that route, but I think that many people will connect on them in CVG or ATL. Faremeasure.com says that the daily traffic for PDX to NYC is 927 passengers. CO also flies daily to EWR and the fares are averaging $220.

NW I know has "DIRECT" (for whatever they define it as) service to DTW from PDX and I think F9 may even (it might be MSP and I am confused). I think DTW could work being that the demand shows 318 daily passengers. They could offer a 319 or 320 and if it performs really good then they can go double daily. This would also help feed the NRT flight, but from what I hear they don't need the extra feed.

US/HP just started their PHL back in June? Don't know how the flight is doing (anyone know?) but I am sure that if they see a lot of people connecting to CLT from PDX they may give it a try when they have metal that is free to do the flight. Faremeasure.com shows only 65 daily passengers going to CLT so it may not have the adequate demand to warrant a non-stop.

Other flights that I think could work because of demand (they may not be hubs) are:

TUS - 160 daily passengers - WN, HP/US, AS
SLT - 250 daily passengers - AA, WN, AS(unlikely before SEA)
MCO - 282 daily passengers - AS, DL?
New Orleans - 174 daily passengers - WN, DL?
BNA - 167 daily passengers - WN, AA
IND - 187 daily passengers - FL, NW
Columbus - 175 daily passengers - ?
BOS - 256 daily passengers - B6, DL, AA?
BWI - 357 daily passengers - WN
AUS - 212 daily passengers - WN, AA

I think that next year we could see some more non-stop flights hopefully to the east coast. With WN and AS/QX the west coast is pretty much covered but the east coast has a lot of room still. PDX to Florida has demand(maybe seasonally) but the distance is around 2500+ miles so during heavy jetstream months there could be fuel stops involved. Let's hope for more flights out of PDX and let me know what you all think of the list.


http://www.faremeasure.com/airports/Airport-Portland_Oregon.html
 
AirTranTUS
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RE: PDX To 2nd And 3rd Tier Hubs

Tue Oct 17, 2006 8:25 am

Quoting B6WNQX (Reply 1):
TUS - 160 daily passengers - WN, HP/US, AS

Horizon used to have double-daily CR7's but they were discontinued a few years back. I forget why. If that data is accurate, then they should do well.
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alaska737
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RE: PDX To 2nd And 3rd Tier Hubs

Tue Oct 17, 2006 8:26 am

Quoting Pdxintl (Thread starter):
but they have definitly dropped the ball with service to the East Coast from PDX.

I agree but looking at it from their standpoint why add extra flights to the east coast when people could just take the 30 minute flight to seattle?

plus AS is short on planes right now, espically ones with the range to make it to the east coast. once some more of those stunning -800's come in we might see a PDX-EWR or PDX-D.C.

also planes like the ERJ-170/190/195 and if it ever happens CRJ-C series will help the cause at PDX. i also think that after AS gets in A/C situation in order some of the QX CRJ flights to california will be changed for 737's.
 
A330323X
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RE: PDX To 2nd And 3rd Tier Hubs

Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:44 am

Quoting Pdxintl (Thread starter):
Thinking about the PDX domestic route network, I noticed that it lacks service to a variety of 2nd and 3rd tier hubs throughout the United States. The cities that come to mind are:

AA: STL (discontinued in STL downsizing)
CO: CLE
NW: MEM, DTW (while not 2nd or 3rd tier it is nonetheless seasonal)
DL: JFK (discontinued after Asia pullout)
US/HP: CLT

I didn't realize that CLT was a "2nd or 3rd tier" hub.  Yeah sure

Word is, though, that US will begin BOS-PDX before CLT-PDX.
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
 
rwsea
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RE: PDX To 2nd And 3rd Tier Hubs

Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:51 am

Quoting Pdxintl (Thread starter):
Would DL sink B6 if they offered JFK, ect.?

I think DL would do very well on the route. There is precisely one daily PDX-JFK flight, and it is a red-eye on B6. A daylight DL flight would be successful and have two distinct advantages over B6: 1) it would be daylight and not a red-eye, and 2) it would connect to DL's European operation.

Quoting B6WNQX (Reply 1):
MCO - 282 daily passengers - AS, DL?

Makes sense as an AS route, perhaps with the 73G. However, the problem with AS's red-eyes is that they turn around and come back to SEA at 8 in the morning. This is in contrast to airlines like B6 which run the red-eye, then fly up and down the east coast during the day, then fly back west in the evening. Thus, the red-eye schedule isn't as convenient for business travel because you don't get that last full day. That said, it would be really cool if AS added SEA-MCO-STT and PDX-MCO-SJU or something like that to increase utilization, improve flight times on red-eyes, and add a few new markets  Smile. Not likely though, unfortunately.
 
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ERJ170
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RE: PDX To 2nd And 3rd Tier Hubs

Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:59 am

I wish AS would offer PDX/SEA-RDU to connect with the RDU-LGW flight since AA and AS are codeshare partners.. it would help get some booties on the LGW flight and give RDU the much needed PDX/SEA flights.. even if each are only once daily! Have them arrive between 3-4.. then depart on the 6:40 LGW flight.. which arrives back at 4:30.. it could work... drop off some, pick up another..
Aiming High and going far..
 
HVNandrew
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RE: PDX To 2nd And 3rd Tier Hubs

Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:01 am

While the PDX focus city didn't work for DL, I felt like they cut back on too much at that airport, similar to their entire pull-down of DFW. A JFK flight would do well for them. An MCO flight might work, also.
 
mrstl
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RE: PDX To 2nd And 3rd Tier Hubs

Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:05 am

Quoting Pdxintl (Thread starter):
AA: STL (discontinued in STL downsizing)

I think you will see WN serving this non-stop before AA

Quoting B6WNQX (Reply 1):

http://www.faremeasure.com/airports/....html

Anyone else notice these numbers have not changed in over a year- I question faremeasures stats at this point.
 
B6WNQX
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RE: PDX To 2nd And 3rd Tier Hubs

Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:07 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 6):
I wish AS would offer PDX/SEA-RDU

PDX - RDU - 163 daily passengers
SEA - RDU - 304 daily passengers

They look like it could work especially if they could time it well enough to connect to AA to the destinations they serve from RDU. I could see PDX one daily with a 73G and SEA with a 738 or double daily 73G. Would be cool for them to start more transcons.

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 2):
Horizon used to have double-daily CR7's

I wonder if with the return of the 9 CR7's that are currently in F9 Express colors if TUS will open back up. I know the CR7's will start to return early in 2007 and proceed throughout the year. That would help provide a lot of much needed life here on the west coast considering AS MD80 retirement schedule.

It will be an interesting year for AS/QX in 2007 because of the MD80 retirement and QX taking more Q400's and I believe they are selling some Q200's to a regional back east (correct me if I'm wrong).
 
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ERJ170
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RE: PDX To 2nd And 3rd Tier Hubs

Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:13 am

Quoting B6WNQX (Reply 9):
I could see PDX one daily with a 73G and SEA with a 738 or double daily 73G.

I would love even just a once daily from each. Have PDX arrive at 4:45 and SEA arrive at 5:00. AA has plenty of gates to share so that would not be a problem. They could drop off the individuals wanting to travel to London cheap on a 777, and pick up the Londoners who wanted to go to SEA/PDX for cheap. Sounds like a win/win situation to me.

Who do I need to email? I think I have just made a brilliant idea!
Aiming High and going far..
 
pdxintl
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RE: PDX To 2nd And 3rd Tier Hubs

Tue Oct 17, 2006 2:40 pm

Quoting Alaska737 (Reply 3):
AS is short on planes right now

good point. I think once we see more -800 or -900's we could (hopefully) see DCA or MCO on AS. WAS is extremely underserved with currently only one UA 319 or 320 to IAD. This flight is very expensive and some competition to the market would serve UA good. Perhaps B6 to IAD, AS to DCA, or WN to BWI? RDU is a long shot but I thought FRA was too (increased from 3x to 5x weekly this winter due to demand). TUS should be restored on QX and Calgary or Edmonton should be added on QX as well (to connect to the NRT flight?) Also happy to see HA increasing OGG to daily!

Anyone know how WN's MCI and ABQ flights perform from PDX?
 
FlyDeltaJets87
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RE: PDX To 2nd And 3rd Tier Hubs

Tue Oct 17, 2006 2:51 pm

Quoting Pdxintl (Reply 11):
I think once we see more -800 or -900's we could (hopefully) see DCA or MCO on AS

Won't see DCA, at least non-stop. PDX is well outside the 1250 mile perimeter rule.
"Let's Roll"- Todd Beamer, United Airlines Flight 93, Sept. 11, 2001
 
AirTranTUS
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RE: PDX To 2nd And 3rd Tier Hubs

Tue Oct 17, 2006 3:19 pm

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 12):
Won't see DCA, at least non-stop. PDX is well outside the 1250 mile perimeter rule.

So are PHX, LAX, and SEA, but they have nonstop service. I believe this rule was done away with a few years ago.

Quoting B6WNQX (Reply 9):
I wonder if with the return of the 9 CR7's that are currently in F9 Express colors if TUS will open back up.

I think that would be a good decision on QX's part. The flight was not cancelled for the F9 partnership, it ended before that. IIRC it was because of low loads, but that could have been the SJC flight; I believe they operated that too.

Now I'm confused. I can't remember if QX operated to SJC, PDX, or both.  Confused I know at least one of you do though.
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MAH4546
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RE: PDX To 2nd And 3rd Tier Hubs

Tue Oct 17, 2006 3:29 pm

Quoting B6WNQX (Reply 9):

They look like it could work especially if they could time it well enough to connect to AA to the destinations they serve from RDU. I could see PDX one daily with a 73G and SEA with a 738 or double daily 73G. Would be cool for them to start more transcons.

RDU-PDX has zero chance of working. SEA-RDU possibly, not more than one daily. Raleigh is not a hub, and Seattle is not a large hub, so the flights would be heavily-O&D reliant. There is no AA feed to speak of, because what AA runs from RDU are hub routes, London, Austin, and Northeast businesss centres.

The thought of running the flight to feed the RDU-LGW flight is ridiculous. SEA and PDX passengers have plenty of connecting oppurtunities to better geographically situated hubs to get to London (not to mention SEA's non-stops to Heathrow) and connecting in Raleigh to get to London would likely add 3-4 hours travel time to more direct routes via Vancouver, Chicago, or San Francisco.
a.
 
m180up
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RE: PDX To 2nd And 3rd Tier Hubs

Tue Oct 17, 2006 3:34 pm

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 13):
So are PHX, LAX, and SEA, but they have nonstop service. I believe this rule was done away with a few years ago.

This is the info that I got from : http://www.metwashairports.com/reaga...out_reagan_national/faqs_about_dca

What is the Perimeter Rule?
Federal law limits aircraft flights to nonstop distances of 1,250 miles or less. In 2000, Congress permitted the FAA to allow six round-trip flights to points outside the perimeter.

So that is why there are flights outside the perimeter rule.

Edited to add link and correct typo

[Edited 2006-10-17 08:40:37]
Werner from SAL
 
AirTranTUS
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RE: PDX To 2nd And 3rd Tier Hubs

Tue Oct 17, 2006 3:49 pm

Quoting M180up (Reply 15):
In 2000, Congress permitted the FAA to allow six round-trip flights to points outside the perimeter.

I don't doubt you because I know the link says that. These were nonstop flights operating today out of DCA that land outside the 1250 mile perimeter:


  • DEN 3 F9, 1 UA
  • PHX 3 HP/US
  • SEA 2 AS
  • LAX 1 AS
  • SLC 1 DL


That makes 11 so something somewhere is wrong. I have an Airways magazine that has an article about DCA and it said something about this, but it is at my parent's house while I am at school.
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QXRamperMEII
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RE: PDX To 2nd And 3rd Tier Hubs

Tue Oct 17, 2006 3:51 pm

Quoting B6WNQX (Reply 9):
It will be an interesting year for AS/QX in 2007 because of the MD80 retirement and QX taking more Q400's and I believe they are selling some Q200's to a regional back east (correct me if I'm wrong).

You are correct. QX is getting back the 9 CRJs on this schedule (all 2007)
* 2 aircraft in January
* 1 aircraft in September
* 1 aircraft in October
* 1 aircraft in November
* 4 aircraft in early December (before the holidays)

The Q400s (13 if I remember correctly) are coming over the next year. The Q200s (16 of them) will be sub-leased to CommuitAir to fly CO Connection flights out of CLE. They will be handed over at a rate of one frame a month, starting in March 2007

Where the additional CRJs will be used is still a matter of hot debate in the company. Right now the gouge is they will be used (in addition to the new -400s) to shore up existing routes (the PDX-SEA market will go to one 70/74 seat aircraft per hour in the next few months); however the lean is to eventually throw QX's new equipment on AS routes and let AS expand...and that's an entirely new set of rumors


[Edited 2006-10-17 08:55:25]
 
MAH4546
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RE: PDX To 2nd And 3rd Tier Hubs

Tue Oct 17, 2006 3:51 pm

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 16):
That makes 11 so something somewhere is wrong. I

Nothing is wrong. Over the years, DOT has very slowly increased the number of beyond-perimter flights allowed.
a.
 
AirTranTUS
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RE: PDX To 2nd And 3rd Tier Hubs

Tue Oct 17, 2006 3:57 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 18):
Nothing is wrong. Over the years, DOT has very slowly increased the number of beyond-perimter flights allowed.

That makes sense. Here is what wikipedia says on the issue:

Quote:
Similarly, Senator John McCain of Arizona introduced legislation in 1999 to remove the 1250-mile perimeter restriction, infuriating local residents concerned about noise and traffic from increased service by larger, long-haul aircraft. McCain argued the move would improve competition, while critics charged he was supporting the interests of Phoenix, Arizona-based America West Airlines (AWA). In the end the restriction remained, but the FAA was permitted to add additional exemptions, which went not to AWA but to competitor Alaska Airlines. AWA would later gain an exemption for non-stop service to Phoenix in 2004.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Reagan_Washington_National_Airport
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ERJ170
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RE: PDX To 2nd And 3rd Tier Hubs

Tue Oct 17, 2006 8:52 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 14):
Raleigh is not a hub, and Seattle is not a large hub, so the flights would be heavily-O&D reliant.

There's sufficient O&D for at least a once daily SEA flight. But AS would have to be very interest, and Im not sure that is the case... unfortunately.


Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 14):
There is no AA feed to speak of, because what AA runs from RDU are hub routes, London, Austin, and Northeast businesss centres.

I never said anything about an AA feed. I was just thinking it would give AS another option to LON, since the LGW is a backup flight and usually falls between 65-85% full year round (more in summer, less in winter).

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 14):
not to mention SEA's non-stops to Heathrow

Ohhh.. didn't know this part. Doesn't BA codeshare on the RDU-LGW flight, even though they have non-stops all over the place? And I know AS codeshare to RDU.. Do they not put a flight number on the RDU-LGW flight already? I could be mistaken..
Aiming High and going far..
 
HPRamper
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RE: PDX To 2nd And 3rd Tier Hubs

Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:33 pm

Quoting B6WNQX (Reply 1):
NW I know has "DIRECT" (for whatever they define it as) service to DTW from PDX and I think F9 may even (it might be MSP and I am confused).

NW has had flights from PDX-DTW for as long as I can remember. I've flown that route a number of times. F9, however, only flies to DEN at this point nonstop, although MSP is a common thru city.

Quoting B6WNQX (Reply 1):
US/HP just started their PHL back in June? Don't know how the flight is doing (anyone know?) but I am sure that if they see a lot of people connecting to CLT from PDX they may give it a try when they have metal that is free to do the flight. Faremeasure.com shows only 65 daily passengers going to CLT so it may not have the adequate demand to warrant a non-stop.

Faremeasure is extremely outdated. Believe me, there's a lot more than 65 daily pax to CLT. We have a ton of connects going there via PHX and LAS every day. I have no doubt a nonstop could work and it's only the computer system merger we are waiting on for that.

Quoting B6WNQX (Reply 1):
BOS - 256 daily passengers - B6, DL, AA?



Quoting A330323X (Reply 4):
Word is, though, that US will begin BOS-PDX before CLT-PDX.

 checkmark  although talk has cooled down a bit lately, at this point CLT may in fact come first, but I'd still expect US to do BOS before the other airlines, especially as the new aircraft come into the system.

Quoting B6WNQX (Reply 9):
It will be an interesting year for AS/QX in 2007 because of the MD80 retirement and QX taking more Q400's and I believe they are selling some Q200's to a regional back east (correct me if I'm wrong).

I've heard that the Q400s will be based at DEN for F9 and the CR7s will be coming back west to fly under the Horizon name again.
 
B6WNQX
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RE: PDX To 2nd And 3rd Tier Hubs

Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:52 pm

Quoting QXRamperMEII (Reply 17):
however the lean is to eventually throw QX's new equipment on AS routes and let AS expand...and that's an entirely new set of rumors

That would be great as AS hasn't expanded into new US cities much here lately.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 21):
Faremeasure is extremely outdated. Believe me, there's a lot more than 65 daily pax to CLT. We have a ton of connects going there via PHX and LAS every day. I have no doubt a nonstop could work and it's only the computer system merger we are waiting on for that.

When is the computer system merger sypposed to be complete? It would be nice to have that non-stop. I figured out that faremeasure was out of date, but someone in another thread posted a link to current information that I will use in the future.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 21):
I've heard that the Q400s will be based at DEN for F9 and the CR7s will be coming back west to fly under the Horizon name again.

The 13 Q400's that QX will receive in 2007 will be staying with QX. F9 has created a subsidiary that ordered 10 Q400's that they will base in DEN. It will be a wholly owned an operated subsidiary of Frontier Holdings. I think they named it something like Lynx Aviation if I remember correctly.

Thanks for all the info.
 
MAH4546
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RE: PDX To 2nd And 3rd Tier Hubs

Wed Oct 18, 2006 1:27 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 20):
Doesn't BA codeshare on the RDU-LGW flight, even though they have non-stops all over the place?

No. BA and AA are not allowed to codeshare on USA-London flights.

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 20):
Do they not put a flight number on the RDU-LGW flight already? I could be mistaken..

No, they don't.
a.
 
HPRamper
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RE: PDX To 2nd And 3rd Tier Hubs

Wed Oct 18, 2006 4:39 am

Quoting B6WNQX (Reply 22):
When is the computer system merger sypposed to be complete?

Supposedly by the end of 1Q 2007. The operating certificates should be a quarter later. So, if everything goes as planned, all should be well by the end of next summer at the latest.

Thanks for the info about F9/QX. I should know better than to eavesdrop on F/As.
 
B6WNQX
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RE: PDX To 2nd And 3rd Tier Hubs

Wed Oct 18, 2006 5:18 am

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 24):
Thanks for the info about F9/QX.

That's why we are all here! To learn and give insight.
 
pdxcof9
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RE: PDX To 2nd And 3rd Tier Hubs

Wed Oct 18, 2006 5:38 am

Quoting B6WNQX (Reply 1):
NW I know has "DIRECT" (for whatever they define it as) service to DTW from PDX and I think F9 may even (it might be MSP and I am confused).

F9's 620am flight is direct to MSP.

Sometimes I work the CO bagroom in PDX and I see a lot of the same bags. On the red eye flight to EWR I see a lot connect to BOS. On the IAH red eye I see a lot of CLE and MCO. Those are some options for making nonstops. And that's only 2 of Continental's flights. I wonder how many people go to those destinations on other airlines.
Flown:733,4,7,8,752,763,TU3,CRJ,7,EM2,ER3,4,318,19,346,M80,90 Worked:CRJ,7,9,EM2,ER4,733,5,7,8,9,752,3,318,9
 
pdxtriple7
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RE: PDX To 2nd And 3rd Tier Hubs

Wed Oct 18, 2006 7:04 am

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 6):
I wish AS would offer PDX/SEA-RDU

Me too. It'd make it so much easier to travel back and forth between school and PDX. But this isn't a logical reason to have the flight. However, the RDU market is underserved in transcontinental flights in my opinion. There is the RDU-SLC DL flight, but nothing to the west coast. I'm sure at least a SEA-RDU flight could be supported.

PDX-CLT would be nice and would work well to accomodate RDU as the connecting flight is only about 20 minutes.

Basically, it looks like PDX's growth will be to the NE, with a flight or two to the south (Florida, MSY, or Mid-Atlantic region).
 
pdxintl
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RE: PDX To 2nd And 3rd Tier Hubs

Wed Oct 18, 2006 8:09 am

what equipment is used on PDX-EWR?
 
as739x
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RE: PDX To 2nd And 3rd Tier Hubs

Wed Oct 18, 2006 8:21 am

AirTranTUS: Horizon flights to TUS were very low yeild. That is the reason they discontinued PDX/SFO-TUS. The mileage people would use there miles for free tickets on this route and therfor the route was losing money. QX saw higher yeild route to use the CR7, and so they went!

ASLAX
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
pdxcof9
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RE: PDX To 2nd And 3rd Tier Hubs

Wed Oct 18, 2006 8:34 am

Quoting Pdxintl (Reply 28):
what equipment is used on PDX-EWR?

for now the 2 daily flights use 738's, october 29th-dec 14th redeye is a 73G, dec 15-january 7th the red eye is a 753, Jan 8th-?: no red eye, Morning flight stays 738 for a long time.
Flown:733,4,7,8,752,763,TU3,CRJ,7,EM2,ER3,4,318,19,346,M80,90 Worked:CRJ,7,9,EM2,ER4,733,5,7,8,9,752,3,318,9