jumbojet
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AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:24 pm

The flight was AA 937 from MCO to MIA, an Airbus 300.

A little background for this story. My friend was on this flight and has a private pilots license. He enjoys sitting behind the wing and watching the flaps, and other control surfaces do their thing. In addition to being a private pilot, he flies as a passenger a lot on AA.

Today, during taxi to the runway, my friend is sitting behind the wing and watches the wing for the flap extension before take-off. Friend starts to panic because as the plane approaches the runway and turns for take-off, still no flaps. With one of the F/A's sitting in front him, he tells the FA about the flaps not being set and the FA reaches for the phone to the flight deck but then hangs it up w/o saying anything. My friend now is really in a panic as the plane begings its take-off roll. However, the A300 takes-off with plenty of runway to spare and after landing in MIA, my friend asked the pilot during deplaning why no flaps and the pilot said that sometimes we can do no flaps to save gas!!! However, the pilot did say that slats were used.

Flight was relatively full and we are talking a widebody here. I'm also someone who enjoys sitting behind the wing and watching the flaps on take-off and landing. From everything I've read and heard, I though that flaps were a must and I'd probably have panicked a little to.

After all, how many other people on the flight were looking out the window thinking, oh my god, there's something wrong? Is this something airlines are now doing to save gas or has it always been done? Anyone else here would have thought something was wrong? I got a good laugh out of this and thought Id share with you all!!

[Edited 2006-10-17 05:27:05]
 
474218
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:33 pm

If the pilot (or co-pilot) tries to move the throttles to full power, and the flaps are not in the takeoff position, he will get an audible warning horn.
 
gigneil
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:34 pm

A300s take off daily with only their slats, well their slats and their Krueger flaps.

edit: in fact, SOP for most A300 takeoffs is zero degrees flaps.

NS

[Edited 2006-10-17 05:37:03]
 
Carpethead
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:38 pm

MCO has what 12,000 ft of runway. Some Japanese airfield that JL operates into have runways half that. Short flight=light flight, despite what you see in the cabin.
 
DL WIDGET HEAD
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:44 pm

Quoting Jumbojet (Thread starter):
Friend starts to panic because as the plane approaches the runway and turns for take-off, still no flaps. With one of the F/A's sitting in front him, he tells the FA about the flaps not being set and the FA reaches for the phone to the flight deck but then hangs it up w/o saying anything. My friend now is really in a panic as the plane begings its take-off roll.

I think your friend very much overreacted and probably caused some of the other passengers sitting nearby undue angst.
 
Type-Rated
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:45 pm

I think the reason the F/A did not say anything on the intercom is that most pilots would be very sensitive about a F/A calling the flight deck and telling them that they have no flaps. This would be tanamount to telling the Captain how to fly the plane. If she had said something, I would not have wanted to be in her shoes at the end of the flight.
If you are not on the flight deck all you can do is go along for the ride knowing that your crew is knowledgable about the operational situation of the aircraft during the various phases of flight, hopefully.
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osiris30
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:46 pm

Quoting Jumbojet (Thread starter):
my friend asked the pilot during deplaning why no flaps and the pilot said that sometimes we can do no flaps to save gas!!! However, the pilot did say that slats were used.

I've been on several flights that were flap less. It's not that uncommon. As long as weather and runway are adequate it's low risk and cuts down on drag (thereby saving fuel).
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
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iahcsr
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:46 pm

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 2):
SOP for most A300 takeoffs is zero degrees flaps

To reconfirm.. This is normal for A300s. I saw this alot on CO back in the day...  covereyes   eek 
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Boston92
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:46 pm

Even if I had noticed, my idea of panicing is sitting as close together as I can, eyes closed, and having every single thought I have ever had or ever will have, run through my head.
"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
 
tsaord
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:51 pm

Your friend is a backseat Flyer huh?

Next time tell him to let the Flight Deck crew fly the plane.
there are icons, then there are legends, then there is rick flair
 
speedbird203
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:51 pm

Interesting post, I probably would of thought what's going on, As usually you are expected to see flaps activated before departure. But i would of not worried the crew know what there doing and they have all those warnings for different things these days, However i can see why your friend had that reaction, But telling the F/A Whew, If someone done that next to me then i would start the panic lol.
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captaink
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:51 pm

There was not reason to panic, cause as someone with a PPL, he would be aware that an airplane can take off just fine without flaps, given enough runway. I have been on many many flights that took off with zero degrees flaps. The takeoff speed is a little higher if i am not mistaken.
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speedbird203
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:54 pm

Quoting Captaink (Reply 11):
There was not reason to panic, cause as someone with a PPL, he would be aware that an airplane can take off just fine without flaps, given enough runway. I have been on many many flights that took off with zero degrees flaps. The takeoff speed is a little higher if i am not mistaken.

Very true, i totally forgot about the part of him having a PPL, I think you would be suprised daily to how many aircraft takeoff without flaps, Now how often is it an aircraft will LAND with limited flaps? Is it rare?
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baron95
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:57 pm

Quoting Jumbojet (Thread starter):
My friend now is really in a panic as the plane begings its take-off roll.

That just goes to prove that a little knowledge can be worse than no knowledge at all.

Quoting Jumbojet (Thread starter):
After all, how many other people on the flight were looking out the window thinking, oh my god, there's something wrong?

No one. MCO-MIA is a tourist leg offloading all the Disneywolrd tourists from South America to their connection rides in MIA - they may not have much on their minds, but second guessing an AA flight crew on the proper configuration for take-off is not one of them.
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LTU932
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:00 pm

I have seen this a few times at SJO as well, thanks to AA and their A300s, though I didn't know slats only T/Os were as common as already explained in this thread. Regular AB6 takeoffs at SJO only need about half of the entire runway length at most, though it can get a bit tricky when it's hot.

This reminds me of a previous discussion here, where it was mentioned that AA started using flaps on their old Fokker fleet for their takeoffs because of passenger complaints (though unlike the A300, Fokker 100s are perfectly capable of a takeoff in a clean configuration; and note that unlike the AB6, F100s don't even have slats).
 
We're Nuts
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:01 pm

Quoting Type-Rated (Reply 5):
I think the reason the F/A did not say anything on the intercom is that most pilots would be very sensitive about a F/A calling the flight deck and telling them that they have no flaps. This would be tanamount to telling the Captain how to fly the plane. If she had said something, I would not have wanted to be in her shoes at the end of the flight.

Every captain I've flown with has told me that if I see something that makes me uncomfortable, I should call and tell them about it. If I had one who was "sensitive" about me looking out for my life, I would ask to be removed from the trip.
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alaska737
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:08 pm

you know i agree with your friend for asking the pilots and i would have done the same thing. sorry were not all A300 pilots but i do know that pilots are not always right. maybe if someone had said something on the air flordia flight out of DC, that could have been avoided. i have a tremendous respect for pilots but still they are not right 100% of the time. plus the only stupid question is the question not asked.

also i think i remember some plane crash where the flaps were not lowerd, might have been a DC-9/MD-80
 
Ralgha
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:11 pm

Quoting SpeedBird203 (Reply 12):
Now how often is it an aircraft will LAND with limited flaps?

Constantly.

Quoting SpeedBird203 (Reply 12):
Is it rare?

Not at all. There is, in fact, a regulation stating that turbojet aircraft must use the minimum flap setting required for the conditions.

§ 91.126
(c) Flap settings. Except when necessary for training or certification, the pilot in command of a civil turbojet-powered aircraft must use, as a final flap setting, the minimum certificated landing flap setting set forth in the approved performance information in the Airplane Flight Manual for the applicable conditions. However, each pilot in command has the final authority and responsibility for the safe operation of the pilot's airplane, and may use a different flap setting for that airplane if the pilot determines that it is necessary in the interest of safety.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
 
baron95
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:18 pm

Quoting Alaska737 (Reply 16):
you know i agree with your friend for asking the pilots and i would have done the same thing.



Quoting Alaska737 (Reply 16):
respect for pilots but still they are not right 100% of the time. plus the only stupid question is the question not asked.

Really? So the flight is taking the active runway for take-off and you want the FA to call in with a question? What next? You think the flight is too fast on approach and you ask the FA to call about Vref? You don't see the harm of interupting the sterile cockpit in the most critical moment of the flight (take-off) as a safety hazzard?

Do me a favor will you? Unless you see flames shooting out of the engines or large pieces of metal departing the wing, just stay off the intercom.
Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
 
alaska737
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:34 pm

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 18):
Really? So the flight is taking the active runway for take-off and you want the FA to call in with a question? What next? You think the flight is too fast on approach and you ask the FA to call about Vref? You don't see the harm of interupting the sterile cockpit in the most critical moment of the flight (take-off) as a safety hazzard?

Do me a favor will you? Unless you see flames shooting out of the engines or large pieces of metal departing the wing, just stay off the intercom.

im sorry where in my post did i mention the flight attendent calling the flight deck. i said that i might be a little nurvous and that i would ask the captain on landing.

secondly i have no way of knowing if a plane is overspeed or underspeed on approach, considering i dont have an altimiter in my lap.

Thirdly maybe if passengers were a little more vocal about possible "issues" with the aircraft we could lower passenger fears and accidents. or would you like passengers to just sit back and relax when there is an inch of ice on the wing or terrorists attempting to hijack another plane? remember what they tell you during the saftey briefing, passengers are responsible for their saftey.

fourthly im sorry for asking pilots ''stupid" questions. i suppose its out of the question for a young aviation enthusiast to even attempt to be knowlegeable in his/her field of study.

Reguards

Alaska737
 
DIA
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:36 pm

Just so you know all this flapless t/o talk isn't all hot air...


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BA
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:45 pm

Quoting Ralgha (Reply 17):
Not at all. There is, in fact, a regulation stating that turbojet aircraft must use the minimum flap setting required for the conditions.

§ 91.126
(c) Flap settings. Except when necessary for training or certification, the pilot in command of a civil turbojet-powered aircraft must use, as a final flap setting, the minimum certificated landing flap setting set forth in the approved performance information in the Airplane Flight Manual for the applicable conditions. However, each pilot in command has the final authority and responsibility for the safe operation of the pilot's airplane, and may use a different flap setting for that airplane if the pilot determines that it is necessary in the interest of safety.

This is interesting...

I'm wondering, why exactly are turbojet aircraft supposed to use a limited flap setting?

Quoting Alaska737 (Reply 19):
secondly i have no way of knowing if a plane is overspeed or underspeed on approach, considering i dont have an altimiter in my lap.

You mean speedometer. An altimeter tells your altitude.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
alaska737
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:50 pm

Quoting BA (Reply 21):

You mean speedometer. An altimeter tells your altitude.

thank you, i type faster than i can think
 
LawnDart
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:54 pm

Quoting 474218 (Reply 1):
If the pilot (or co-pilot) tries to move the throttles to full power, and the flaps are not in the takeoff position, he will get an audible warning horn.

A major carrier recently had a 737NG take off from an airport in the northeast, without flaps...accidentally. The warning horn never sounded (malfunction), but the flight lifted off because the runway was long enough, and the aircraft had gained enough speed. The captain filed a "NASA" report.

Quoting Tsaord (Reply 9):
Next time tell him to let the Flight Deck crew fly the plane.

The vast majority of accidents are caused by the flight crew.

Quoting We're Nuts (Reply 15):
Every captain I've flown with has told me that if I see something that makes me uncomfortable, I should call and tell them about it.

Same here...I was at the end of the runway once, and the flaps had not been set. I told the flight attendant, who did call the flight deck, and the flaps were set after that call.

Turns out the flight deck had forgotten to set them, because they had been given a complicated taxi clearance during that part of their checklist. Yes, the warning horn would've let them know, but they would've had to abort take-off and get back in line.

Quoting Alaska737 (Reply 16):
also i think i remember some plane crash where the flaps were not lowerd, might have been a DC-9/MD-80

727-200...MD80...just two I can remember off the top of my head...people died in both.

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 18):
Do me a favor will you? Unless you see flames shooting out of the engines or large pieces of metal departing the wing, just stay off the intercom.

Any airline professional worth his or her salt will respect that some people have real fears about flying...and appreciate input from a set of eyes that can possibly see something their eyes can't. Does a copilot keep quiet when he detects something other than large pieces of metal "departing" the wing? How about a flight attendant?

In an earlier thread, I spoke about an individual I had met who had been a flight attendant on board the DL that crashed at DFW while attempting take-off without it's flaps set. He said he now has no issue checking that flaps are set, and if they are not, going to the flight deck and reminding them.
 
FlyDeltaJets87
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:55 pm

Quoting Tsaord (Reply 9):
Your friend is a backseat Flyer huh?

Next time tell him to let the Flight Deck crew fly the plane.

Not necessarily. The flight crew can make a mistake regardless of what you think.
This was not a mistake by the flight crew but rather the ground personnel, but one of my friends was on a Dash 8, and noticed the underwing gas cap had not been pushed in (The wing was not leaking fuel, as the cap was on, but the outside door had not been closed). My friend pointed it out to the F/A, who notified the Captain, and they returned to the terminal to have it closed. The Captain even came on the intercom later to thank "the passenge" that pointed this out.

Quoting Alaska737 (Reply 16):
you know i agree with your friend for asking the pilots and i would have done the same thing. sorry were not all A300 pilots but i do know that pilots are not always right. maybe if someone had said something on the air flordia flight out of DC, that could have been avoided. i have a tremendous respect for pilots but still they are not right 100% of the time. plus the only stupid question is the question not asked.

also i think i remember some plane crash where the flaps were not lowerd, might have been a DC-9/MD-80

Thank You. Regardless of what some people on here want to think, pilots do make mistakes.
What if one of the passengers on the Comair flight at LEX, being familar with the LEX airport had noticed they were on a wrong runway, one that was too short to be used and wanted to point this out to the flight crew? Would these same people who are saying "let the flight crew fly the plane" be whining then? I would like to think not.
One of the passengers on the Aloha flight that had the roof sucked off noticed cracks in the fuselage when boarding, but chose not to say anything as she figured the aircrew knew about it and knew what was going on. Would you have told her "not to worry about it?"

Now I'm not going to suggesting passengers have the F/A call up the flight deck for every little creak and squeak, but sometimes it's best to ask about something and find it's okay rather than ignore it and it lead to a disaster. If I see something overly suspicious, I am going to point it out, or at least ask about it.
"Let's Roll"- Todd Beamer, United Airlines Flight 93, Sept. 11, 2001
 
FiveMileFinal
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 2:09 pm

Hey, whenever I fly and am sitting window, I always watch to see the flaps drop and the spoilers flip up. I probably would have done the same thing (called and asked). But it's also nice to know that some planes don't need flaps to get airborne...I'll remember that the next time I'm on an A306.
You goin'? We fly you dere! You been? We done already flew up in dere!
 
ULMFlyer
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 2:16 pm

Quoting Jumbojet (Thread starter):
The flight

Interesting post indeed. I have mixed feelings about your friend's reaction.

Obviously, although he's got a PPL, he's not A300 rated and I'd assume that he couldn't see from his position the extended slats. Naturally, one does not want every backseat flyer screaming that there's something wrong on every take off roll.

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 18):
You don't see the harm of interupting the sterile cockpit in the most critical moment of the flight (take-off) as a safety hazzard?

On the other hand, searching the Aviation Safety Network, one can find 3 accidents caused by 0 flaps/slats setting EVEN WITH the aural take-off configuration warning sounding. These would be United B722 at ORD in 1968 (0/3 fatalities), LAPA B732 at AEP in 1999 (63/103 fat.) and Lion Airlines B732 at PKU in 2002 (0/103 fat.) There are a few others where the warning not working was an additional contributing factor.

Source: http://aviation-safety.net/database/dblist.php?Event=LTTW

One cannot help wondering if a PPL saying something would have prevented these accidents. The same can be said about two F-28 accidents due to wing icing described in Macarthur Job's "Air Disaster vol. 3."

What if Gh123 were aboard Comair 191? Being familiar with LEX and noticing the wrong runway, I suppose he would most definitely have yelled something. May it's a case of better safe than sorry.
Let's go Pens!
 
ilikeyyc
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 2:18 pm

Quoting Tsaord (Reply 9):
Your friend is a backseat Flyer huh?

Next time tell him to let the Flight Deck crew fly the plane.

I'm sure the passengers and crew of DL1141 and of NW255 would disagree with that statement.
Fighting Absurdity with Absurdity!
 
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fxramper
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 2:19 pm

Quoting IAHcsr (Reply 7):
To reconfirm.. This is normal for A300s. I saw this alot on CO back in the day

 checkmark 

Prior to push-back, take off power settings are set. The flaps shouldn't have been an issue. Hearsay... confused 
 
baron95
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 2:22 pm

Quoting Alaska737 (Reply 19):
i said that i might be a little nurvous and that i would ask the captain on landing.

My apologies if that is what you meant - by all means, after landing ask any questions you want - it will not affect safety.

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 23):
He said he now has no issue checking that flaps are set, and if they are not, going to the flight deck and reminding them.



Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 24):
What if one of the passengers on the Comair flight at LEX, being familar with the LEX airport had noticed they were on a wrong runway, one that was too short to be used and wanted to point this out to the flight crew?

I'm sorry, but you are all missing the point. There are no actions without consequences. Fact is the absolutely vast majority of the time the flight crew has the proper configuration for take off. Fact is that take-off is the mos t stressful period for the flight crew. Fact is that they need their sterile and undivided attention to execute a safe take-off. Fact is that the vast majority of the time that a passanger of FA interrupted the sterile pre-takeoff routine it would not be reporting an actual problem. Fact is that you make enough interruptions at that critical time in the flight and you WILL CAUSE AND ERROR THAT WILL LEAD TO AN ACCIDENT.

So do me a favor - leave any questions for after landing and engine shut-off, unless you see fire, fuel or large metal pieces departing the aircraft. Even then, either interrupt before the airplane is on the active runway or after the flight has reached about 1000 feet (that is about the height of the Empire State Building).
Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
 
N754PR
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 2:25 pm

Yay... another Aviation expert that has no idea what they are doing or saying. This guy could have delayed this flight IF he made a big thing about this to the attendent... then he would have been in some serious poo poo.

Could it be the same idiot that did that video of the AC 763 aborted takeoff??
Bush, your a sad, sad man.
 
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fxramper
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 2:29 pm

Quoting N754PR (Reply 30):
This guy could have delayed this flight IF he made a big thing about this to the attendent... then he would have been in some serious poo poo.

 checkmark 

It's highly likely the flight attendant was even 'picking up a phone' to discuss an a/c setting with the pilot. An FA isn't gonna know what's right and wrong. The guys up front are in control... twocents 
 
baron95
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 2:35 pm

Oh and one more thing for your flap watchers out there...

Most misconfiguration on flap setting, would be an issue IF the plane also lost an engine during or shortly after take-off. With all engines running, particularly on twin-engine planes like the A300, the flight would safely take-off even if misconfigured. (assuming the flight crew doesn't over rotate the plane and attempts to fly at too high an angle of attack)
Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
 
FlyDeltaJets87
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 2:35 pm

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 29):
I'm sorry, but you are all missing the point. There are no actions without consequences. Fact is the absolutely vast majority of the time the flight crew has the proper configuration for take off. Fact is that take-off is the mos t stressful period for the flight crew. Fact is that they need their sterile and undivided attention to execute a safe take-off. Fact is that the vast majority of the time that a passanger of FA interrupted the sterile pre-takeoff routine it would not be reporting an actual problem.

Let's see here. Passenger notices flaps aren't set for takeoff following pushback (when the flaps are usually set, at least on the flights I've been on) and notifies F/A. F/A then notifies flight deck. I see one of two possible outcomes in this situation.
A) What happened here. Captain says "We won't be using flaps for takeoff," hangs up phone, goes back to preparing aircraft for takeoff.
B) Captain realises the "set flaps" part of the checklist somehow got skipped, and sets the flaps. Potential disaster averted.

I'm sorry. I don't see this as being much different than pointing out to another motorists on the highway that they have a flat tire. They may or may not know about it. You don't know, but it's probably better to point it out anyway.
"Let's Roll"- Todd Beamer, United Airlines Flight 93, Sept. 11, 2001
 
CRFLY
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 4:20 pm

Nothing to be ashamed of, it has happend to me several times on the AB6 taking off from SJO in the morning flight especially, but I've seen several videos on flightlevel350.com of Thai and JAL A300's taking off with flap 0. Actually I've heard this has been discussed between AA and Airbus after the AA300 accident in NYC... there are some differences between AA way and Airbus way...

Anyways, no need to be ashamed! The LAPA passengers and some il-fated passengers of other airplanes that crashed after t/o because the wrong flap configuration would appreciate having an enthusiastic pilot who said "STOP!!! You have no flaps set"!!! That is just my opinion...
With Age comes Wisdom...
 
VEEREF
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 5:58 pm

Advice to all nervous flyers- Instead of sitting behind the wing, sit in front of it. I am not aware of any large airline transport aircraft that are equipped with moveable leading edge devices that are optional for takeoff and landing.
If you happen to be riding in one and the takeoff roll is commenced without slats, then it's time to say something.

On the DC-10, we can land just fine, although a bit faster, if there is a flap malfunction. But if the slats do not come out, it becomes a whole new ball game. At higher landing weights it can add 75-80kt to the landing speeds!
Airplanes are cool. Aviation sucks.
 
gunsontheroof
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 6:04 pm

Quoting Jumbojet (Thread starter):
After all, how many other people on the flight were looking out the window thinking, oh my god, there's something wrong?

Nobody. You could probably takeoff on the taxiway with no flaps and reverse thrust without hearing a peep out of your average passengers.  Wink
 
AJ
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 6:32 pm

The good old 767-200 could also be certified for a slats only takeoff, the -300 couldn't due to tail clearance issues.

Regarding flapless landings they are definately a non-normal situation, but are quite possible providing enough runway is available! Here's an A330 conducting one at Narita a year ago:
 
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BreninTW
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 6:42 pm

Quoting AJ (Reply 37):
Regarding flapless landings they are definately a non-normal situation, but are quite possible providing enough runway is available! Here's an A330 conducting one at Narita a year ago

Why would they be doing a no-flaps landing? Mechanical issues?
 
peachair
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 8:25 pm

Quoting 474218 (Reply 1):
If the pilot (or co-pilot) tries to move the throttles to full power, and the flaps are not in the takeoff position, he will get an audible warning horn.

Or in the case of the 767-400, the throttles "snap" back to idle position as well as an audible warning.
 
GatwickA320
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 8:29 pm

I used to work on an A300 as an F/A and I too had a similar experience. Sat in my crewseat by the window I noticed the flaps hadn't been deployed for take off. I knew the runway at BAH was very long and I assumed the slats would be extended. I was a bit anxious, but decided not to phone the flight deck as I had heard of "flapless" take offs.

After take off I joked with the pilots and said "thanks for scaring the s**t out of me!"

The A300 has a high lift wing (despite being short) and on long runways can go a little faster and rotate on slats only.

The passenger who caused the subject of this thread had every right to be concerned as on most aircraft you must take off using flaps!!
 
UAL777UK
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 8:32 pm

Quoting We're Nuts (Reply 15):
Every captain I've flown with has told me that if I see something that makes me uncomfortable, I should call and tell them about it. If I had one who was "sensitive" about me looking out for my life, I would ask to be removed from the trip.

Exactly true, any FA that is concerned about anything, whether it be flaps through to an unusual noise, should report it to the Captain, prior to, during or after the flight. Thats what is know as a good line of communication between employee's.
 
GatwickA320
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 8:36 pm

From Alaska 737:

Quote:
"or would you like passengers to just sit back and relax when there is an inch of ice on the wing or terrorists attempting to hijack another plane? remember what they tell you during the saftey briefing, passengers are responsible for their saftey."

I quite agree. Remember the Aloha flight where the roof came off? A passenger noticed a crack and thought best not to report it. Dryden? Passngers noticed too much ice on the wing. Had the crew done their job properly this awful accident wouldn't have happened. Passengers aren't stupid - they notice if there's something wrong, although sometimes they think the wing's broken when the spoilers are deployed!!

When securing the cabin we ask passengers to keep their window blinds open as they are the "eyes" of the aircraft. If a passenger ever notices something I can't give an explanation about I will always follow it up and get an explanation.
 
777236ER
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 8:37 pm

Everyone suggesting that the passenger should shut up and let the crew fly the aircraft, G-OBME would still be flying today and 47 people would be alive, had the passengers had the guts to make the flight attendants phone the flight deck. The crew made a PA announcement that the right engine was malfunctioning, while passengers had seen sparks from the left engine.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
ksonderling
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:24 pm

What exactly are "slats"? Does anyone have a picture and/or definition?
 
flyinTLow
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:27 pm

The pilot is very much correct about saving fuel:

When flaps at the trailing edge are extended, besides increasing the wing camber to increase lift they also dramatically increase drag, to a higher extent than the slats / leading edge flaps. This is not bad, or actually desired on landing to get to a slower airspeed before touchdown.

On takeoff though, when aevery knot of airspeed is desired as soon as possible, any unnecessary drag will be eliminated. The camber/lift to drag ratio is better for the slats/leading edge flaps than for the trailing edge flaps, hence they are always used on takeoff, while the trailing edge flaps are normally not extended to more than 15 degrees. Also, if you ever see a short-field takeoff (not that this happens too often) you don't see them using full flaps either.

Cheers,

Thilo
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ReverseThrust
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:28 pm

A300's have an incredibly good performance and climb rate.

Last week I flew on a Monarch A300 to and from Gatwick to Luxor Egypt (MON1942 and MON 1943) (flight times of 4h 40 out and 4h55 back) Monarch's seating capacity in all economy on these aircraft is a very tight 361, yet we made a take off only after half of the runway at Gatwick in an astonishing climb rate.

The the same happened again at Luxor in pretty high, humid evening heat with another full load of passengers on the return.

I have always loved the A300 and have experienced numerous flapless take off's with Lufthansa, who's A300's I have flown on the most.

Cheers,

Reverse.
Flown MD11/81/82/83/87/90,B732/733/734/735/737W/738/739/742/752/753,F70/100,A300/319/320/321/332/333/343,TU134A/154M,L10
 
MiCorazonAzul
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:31 pm

There is nothing wrong with someone questioning what the pilots are doing. I always look for the flaps to be set for take-off. Had I been on this plane, I would have also said something because I didn't know any different. It's not like the guy got up and starting yelling "we're gonna die"! I think we have had a very recent reminder of how pilots are not perfect....Comair.....LEX.....need I say more?

Quoting DIA (Reply 20):
Just so you know all this flapless t/o talk isn't all hot air...

um, I think we have already established that by reply 20.......don't need the pics.  Yeah sure
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fanoftristars
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:51 pm

Long ago I was on a SLC-LAS flight and noticed that there was a small panel missing from the engine. You could see wires and tubes inside. I debated whether or not to say something, and decided while taxiing to ask an FA about it.

She took a look at the engine, then walked across the isle to look at the other. She informed me that the other side had the panel (really??? lol) and went to call the captain.

Interestingly she came back and said the captain would like to thank me for being so observant, but they could still fly the plane at a lower altitude and at a reduced speed with the panel missing. She asked if I'd stop by the flight deck so the captain could meet me at the end of the flight.

I think that was a nice way to handle it, even though I had no need for concern. The pilot was a total gentleman about it, as I'm sure most pilots would be. He made me feel a little less stupid for worrying about the missing panel.
"FLY DELTA JETS"
 
flyingbronco05
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RE: AA Take-0ff W/o Flaps Scares Passenger Today!

Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:56 pm

Quoting Tsaord (Reply 9):
Your friend is a backseat Flyer huh?

Next time tell him to let the Flight Deck crew fly the plane.

I wonder if he thought they were turning at the outer marker and I also wonder if he has logged the same amount of hours as a passenger as a licensed commercial pilot  bigthumbsup   bouncy   box 
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