SkyvanMan
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No LAX-LGA Direct?

Tue Oct 17, 2006 4:26 pm

I was looking at airports closer to me than BDL and found LEB but when I looked for LEB-LAX everything had 2 stops, LGA (the only place serviced from LEB) and then another place. I checked for seperate flights and couldn't find anything direct LGA-LAX. Anyone know why there is no direct flight, I mean there is one from BDL, many form JFK, flights EWR but none LGA. I've tried to find out why but I couldn't figure out why, anyonne know?
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GSM763
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RE: No LAX-LGA Direct?

Tue Oct 17, 2006 4:36 pm

LAX (I think) is too far away for direct flights to LaGuadria to be allowed. Denver needs special permission
 
zrs70
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RE: No LAX-LGA Direct?

Tue Oct 17, 2006 4:36 pm

Well, in terms of true definitions, there are a few "direct" LGA-LAX flights (same flight number, but a stop or change of plane). But there are no nonstops.

The reason has to do with the perimeter rule at LAX. I believe that DEN (or SLC) is the farthest distance a commercial flight can go from LGA.
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MAH4546
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RE: No LAX-LGA Direct?

Tue Oct 17, 2006 4:36 pm

There is a perimeter rule that restricts the distance of flights out of LGA to 1,500mi. The two exceptions are flights to Denver and flights on Saturdays. Delta Airlines flies LGA-LAX, only on Saturdays.
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jdwfloyd
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RE: No LAX-LGA Direct?

Tue Oct 17, 2006 4:40 pm

DL runs LGA-LAX direct on Saturday only.
 
Cactus739
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RE: No LAX-LGA Direct?

Tue Oct 17, 2006 4:42 pm

LGA has a 1500 mile perimeter rule....no nonstops that go farther than that.. MCI is the farthest west I know of to have daily LGA service.

Saturday is the only day exempt from that rule.... anything goes on Saturdays apparently. Anyone know why?

[Edited 2006-10-17 09:46:15]
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DAL767400ER
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RE: No LAX-LGA Direct?

Tue Oct 17, 2006 4:49 pm

Quoting Cactus739 (Reply 5):
Even DEN is outside the perimeter.

DEN may be outside, but it has been grandfathered in, so to say, when the restrictions were started. Same in the case of the perimeter at DCA.
 
Viscount724
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RE: No LAX-LGA Direct?

Tue Oct 17, 2006 5:11 pm

Quoting Cactus739 (Reply 5):
Saturday is the only day exempt from that rule.... anything goes on Saturdays apparently. Anyone know why?

I believe it's because LGA is much less busy on Saturday (not much shorthaul business travel on Saturday), thus the same congestion/delay issues don't apply.
 
BHMNONREV
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RE: No LAX-LGA Direct?

Tue Oct 17, 2006 5:15 pm

Quoting Cactus739 (Reply 5):
Saturday is the only day exempt from that rule.... anything goes on Saturdays apparently. Anyone know why?

Most likely because Saturdays are traditionally the slowest days of the week for flight ops, which would open up slots for flights not normally available on other days of the week...

Could LGA be a possibility for Saturday only 757 service across the pond??
 
SkyvanMan
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RE: No LAX-LGA Direct?

Tue Oct 17, 2006 5:48 pm

Thanks, I was thinking there might be some rule of some sort, just couldn't find anything on it. Also didnt know aobut the DL saturday flight but doesn't ammter since I avoid flying on weekends anyways.
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DAL767400ER
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RE: No LAX-LGA Direct?

Tue Oct 17, 2006 6:34 pm

Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 8):
Could LGA be a possibility for Saturday only 757 service across the pond??

IIRC, LGA doesn't have any FIS, as pretty much all int'l traffic is from airports that have pre-clearance, so DUB/SNN would be the only option. That said, I doubt that any airline would choose LGA over JFK/EWR for longhaul lights.
 
TurkishWings
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RE: No LAX-LGA Direct?

Tue Oct 17, 2006 8:42 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 3):
There is a perimeter rule that restricts the distance of flights out of LGA to 1,500mi.

What exactly is the reason for that?
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Art at ISP
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RE: No LAX-LGA Direct?

Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:16 pm

The Port Authority of NY and NJ wanted to steer long range traffic away from LaGuardia, forcing the use of JFK and/or EWR. LaGuardia has only 7000 foot runways, and they are partially on pilings which extend out into Flushing Bay. There are weight limits for aircraft operating in and out of LGA as well, which make some long range flights impractical.

So the PANY/NJ is responsible--to basically force the use of the other two airports.

It has been challenged in court and upheld, by the way, but I think it's ripe for another challenge.
 
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STT757
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RE: No LAX-LGA Direct?

Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:35 pm

Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 8):
Could LGA be a possibility for Saturday only 757 service across the pond??

There are no facilities to handle International arrivals, flights to Laguardia from Bermuda, Nassau, Aruba, Toronto and Montreal are pre-screened prior to departure for LGA.
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timz
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RE: No LAX-LGA Direct?

Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:02 pm

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 6):
DEN may be outside, but it has been grandfathered in, so to say, when the restrictions were started. Same in the case of the perimeter at DCA.

DEN never got grandfathered at DCA.

I still haven't figured out whether the original questioner was actually asking about nonstops LGA-LAX, or direct flights. Aren't there any one-stops?
 
Art at ISP
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RE: No LAX-LGA Direct?

Wed Oct 18, 2006 4:28 am

There are plenty of one stop flights to many locations on the west coast--even SNA if memory serves correctly.

The Perimeter Rule only applies to non stop flights from LGA, and due to the exemption, there is a nonstop LGA-LAX flight on Saturdays.

US was going to have an LGA-LAS flight as well, but I believe it was a non starter.
 
N1120A
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RE: No LAX-LGA Direct?

Wed Oct 18, 2006 5:45 am

Quoting GSM763 (Reply 1):
LAX (I think) is too far away for direct flights to LaGuadria to be allowed

Yes, LAX is too far, given that it is almost as far as you can get from LGA without leaving the lower 48

Quoting GSM763 (Reply 1):
Denver needs special permission

Denver is grandfathered in

Quoting Zrs70 (Reply 2):
The reason has to do with the perimeter rule at LAX.

LAX has no perimeter rule, you are thinking about LGA

Quoting Zrs70 (Reply 2):
I believe that DEN (or SLC) is the farthest distance a commercial flight can go from LGA.

DEN. Otherwise, it has to be within 1500 statute miles or on Saturday

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 6):
Same in the case of the perimeter at DCA.

Actually, DCA's perimeter has 2 very different rules. First, the perimeter is 1250 statute miles and second, there is no Saturday exemption. Additionally, Congress and the DOT may, from time to time, create exemptions to the perimeter rule at DCA and then the DOT may award an airline's application to run those flights. No such procedure occurs at LGA.

Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 8):
Could LGA be a possibility for Saturday only 757 service across the pond??

Saturday only service is just too limited.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 10):
LGA doesn't have any FIS,

Yes it does.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 10):
That said, I doubt that any airline would choose LGA over JFK/EWR for longhaul lights.

Sure they would, if they could

Quoting STT757 (Reply 13):
There are no facilities to handle International arrivals

Yes there are. Biz jets go to the LGA FIS all the time and pre-cleared flights from Canada and elsewhere would not be allowed into LGA is there was no FIS, just as was the case when AS actually had a pre-cleared YVR-SNA flight in the air and had to divert because SNA has no FIS at all. LGA's FIS is indeed too limited to clear anything much more than a GA aircraft, but it does have one.

Quoting Timz (Reply 14):
Aren't there any one-stops?

Yes, particularly by AA
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STT757
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RE: No LAX-LGA Direct?

Wed Oct 18, 2006 10:43 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 16):
Yes there are. Biz jets go to the LGA FIS all the time and pre-cleared flights from Canada and elsewhere would not be allowed into LGA is there was no FIS, just as was the case when AS actually had a pre-cleared YVR-SNA flight in the air and had to divert because SNA has no FIS at all.

More like the DHS will send a crew over to LGA from JFK to greet a VIP Corporate flight, they do not have an established facility for processing International arrivals.
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SFORunner
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RE: No LAX-LGA Direct?

Wed Oct 18, 2006 11:54 am

Quoting Timz (Reply 14):
DEN never got grandfathered at DCA.

The DOT awarded 12 "Beyond the Perimeter" slots for DCA in 2004.

http://ostpxweb.dot.gov/aviation/Dat...02004-4-1%20Beyond%20Perimeter.pdf

4 to AS (SEA & LAX)
2 to the former HP (PHX)
4 to F9 (DEN)
2 to UA (DEN)

[Edited 2006-10-18 04:54:58]
 
aaflt1871
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RE: No LAX-LGA Direct?

Wed Oct 18, 2006 12:09 pm

Quoting SFORunner (Reply 18):
The DOT awarded 12 "Beyond the Perimeter" slots for DCA in 2004.

http://ostpxweb.dot.gov/aviation/Dat...02004-4-1%20Beyond%20Perimeter.pdf

4 to AS (SEA & LAX)
2 to the former HP (PHX)
4 to F9 (DEN)
2 to UA (DEN)

Uh you forgot flight 119 nonstop to LAS
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SHUPirate1
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RE: No LAX-LGA Direct?

Wed Oct 18, 2006 12:46 pm

Quoting Art at ISP (Reply 15):
US was going to have an LGA-LAS flight as well, but I believe it was a non starter.

Performance issues. US Airways was planning on using the A321, which has roughly the range of that paper airplane you made in third grade when the substitute teacher was there because the regular teacher called in sick.
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SFORunner
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RE: No LAX-LGA Direct?

Wed Oct 18, 2006 1:19 pm

Quoting AAFLT1871 (Reply 19):
Uh you forgot flight 119 nonstop to LAS

D'oh!

Add: I believe Vegas was part of an earlier or subsequent allocation. It was not allocated in the 2004 proceedings (?).

[Edited 2006-10-18 06:21:07]

[Edited 2006-10-18 06:22:28]
 
N1120A
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RE: No LAX-LGA Direct?

Wed Oct 18, 2006 1:22 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 17):
More like the DHS will send a crew over to LGA from JFK to greet a VIP Corporate flight, they do not have an established facility for processing International arrivals.

Lots of international airports share CBP people with other facilities. MSY shares its CBP crew with the Port of New Orleans/South Louisiana. Still, LGA is considered an international airport with a sterile FIS, hence why it is allowed to have pre-cleared flights land.
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ikramerica
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RE: No LAX-LGA Direct?

Wed Oct 18, 2006 3:32 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 16):
Yes, LAX is too far, given that it is almost as far as you can get from LGA without leaving the lower 48

Almost, but of course SFO/OAK/SJC are a little further. Farther? And they usually take longer to fly westbound due to more headwinds (unless the jetstream dips way south).

Quoting SFORunner (Reply 18):
The DOT awarded 12 "Beyond the Perimeter" slots for DCA in 2004.

Yes, but that is not grandfathering. Grandfathering is keeping "exceptions" to new rules because they pre-date the rules, and those exceptions only apply to specifically delineated operations/businesses/people.
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SFORunner
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RE: No LAX-LGA Direct?

Wed Oct 18, 2006 3:40 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 23):
Yes, but that is not grandfathering. Grandfathering is keeping "exceptions" to new rules because they pre-date the rules, and those exceptions only apply to specifically delineated operations/businesses/people.

Yawn.

I never said it was grandfathering. I was backing up Timz's claim that DEN was never part of any DCA grandfathering.

You'll note that the rest of my post indicates exemptions were created DEN for both UA and F9.
 
N1120A
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RE: No LAX-LGA Direct?

Wed Oct 18, 2006 3:45 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 23):
Almost, but of course SFO/OAK/SJC are a little further. Farther? And they usually take longer to fly westbound due to more headwinds (unless the jetstream dips way south).

Yes, but that wasn't my point.
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iowaman
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RE: No LAX-LGA Direct?

Wed Oct 18, 2006 4:40 pm

Quoting Art at ISP (Reply 15):
US was going to have an LGA-LAS flight as well, but I believe it was a non starter.



Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 20):
Performance issues. US Airways was planning on using the A321, which has roughly the range of that paper airplane you made in third grade when the substitute teacher was there because the regular teacher called in sick.

In addition to DL operating Saturday only LAX-LGA non-stop, they also operate a Saturday only LAS-LGA. That may have detoured US even more.
 
WesternA318
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RE: No LAX-LGA Direct?

Wed Oct 18, 2006 4:54 pm

TWA used to have 2 daily LAX-LGA flights, I'm assuming with 757's. These were started after our re-branding from the twin red stripes to our final colors. I think LGA-LAX came in around 97-98 or so...
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N1120A
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RE: No LAX-LGA Direct?

Wed Oct 18, 2006 5:17 pm

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 27):
TWA used to have 2 daily LAX-LGA flights, I'm assuming with 757's. These were started after our re-branding from the twin red stripes to our final colors. I think LGA-LAX came in around 97-98 or so...

They would have had to stop somewhere, likely STL
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STT757
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RE: No LAX-LGA Direct?

Wed Oct 18, 2006 9:55 pm

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 27):
TWA used to have 2 daily LAX-LGA flights, I'm assuming with 757's.

They could not be nonstop, only on Saturday could an airline fly nonstop LGA-LAX.
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A330323X
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RE: No LAX-LGA Direct?

Thu Oct 19, 2006 12:49 am

Quoting Iowaman (Reply 26):
In addition to DL operating Saturday only LAX-LGA non-stop, they also operate a Saturday only LAS-LGA. That may have detoured US even more.

Or not, seeing as how US announced its flights about 2 years before DL announced theirs.  Wink
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ikramerica
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RE: No LAX-LGA Direct?

Thu Oct 19, 2006 12:59 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 25):
Yes, but that wasn't my point.

Yeah, I know. I was "correcting" you for no reason, ignoring your "almost," something you do to me on a regular basis.

Annoying, isn't it?  Wink
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FoxBravo
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RE: No LAX-LGA Direct?

Thu Oct 19, 2006 1:03 am

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 27):
TWA used to have 2 daily LAX-LGA flights, I'm assuming with 757's. These were started after our re-branding from the twin red stripes to our final colors. I think LGA-LAX came in around 97-98 or so...

Perhaps you are thinking of the LAX-DCA flights that were awarded to TWA when they awarded exemptions to the perimeter rule? Those were operated with 757s after the re-branding. The DOT ruled that those exemptions were not transferable to AA in connection with AA's purchase of most of TWA's assets.

As others have noted, LAX-LGA was not operated nonstop by TWA.
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timz
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RE: No LAX-LGA Direct?

Thu Oct 19, 2006 6:52 am

Quoting FoxBravo (Reply 32):
As others have noted, LAX-LGA was not operated nonstop by TWA.

Except maybe in 1947. The summer timetable showed a fuel-stop-may-be-needed "nonstop".
 
gigneil
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RE: No LAX-LGA Direct?

Thu Oct 19, 2006 7:53 am

Quoting SFORunner (Reply 18):
The DOT awarded 12 "Beyond the Perimeter" slots
for DCA in 2004.

And several in 2001. There are lots

Quoting AAFLT1871 (Reply 19):
Uh you forgot flight 119 nonstop to LAS

That's one of the lots.

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 20):
US Airways was planning on using the A321, which has roughly the range of that paper airplane you made in third grade when the substitute teacher was there because the regular teacher called in sick.

Yet it flies transcons all day every day.

NS
 
FoxBravo
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RE: No LAX-LGA Direct?

Thu Oct 19, 2006 8:02 am

Quoting Timz (Reply 33):
Except maybe in 1947. The summer timetable showed a fuel-stop-may-be-needed "nonstop".

Haha, good call.  Smile
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