deltal1011man
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Delta And The Winglet

Wed Oct 18, 2006 11:05 am

will DL put winglets on there 737s and 757s? If so when? What do you guys (and girls ) think that they should do?
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deltagator
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RE: Delta And The Winglet

Wed Oct 18, 2006 11:16 am

Let them get out of bankruptcy and then you might see them on the 757s first and then perhaps the 738 planes. The 757 is the transcon plane of cchoice going forward it seems so they could benefit the most from the winglets.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
ramerinianair
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RE: Delta And The Winglet

Wed Oct 18, 2006 11:51 am

I think they might add the winglets to the 738s after bankruptcy - the 738s will be around for a LOOOONG time. Some of their 757s are getting older now, it may be a waste to put them on now.
I don't think that the 757 is the aircraft of choic for transcons. It seems that DL is putting the 738 on a few transcons too!
SR
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deltagator
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RE: Delta And The Winglet

Wed Oct 18, 2006 11:58 am

Quoting RamerinianAir (Reply 2):
I don't think that the 757 is the aircraft of choic for transcons. It seems that DL is putting the 738 on a few transcons too!

You're correct about the 738 on the transcon flights but they are rolling out the Song improvements with PTVs and such to the 757 fleet as their heavy load transcon equipment first.

I'm sure we'll see those improvements rolled out to the 738 fleet soon enough along with the international fleet.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Delta And The Winglet

Wed Oct 18, 2006 12:14 pm

DL's 738s will be getting winglets.

DL's oldest 757s will start retiring next year (purple tails anyone?)

DL's 757s coming from AA will have winglets and will feature the new design.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
deltagator
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RE: Delta And The Winglet

Wed Oct 18, 2006 12:28 pm

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 4):
DL's oldest 757s will start retiring next year (purple tails anyone?)

You've lost me on this one. Who has purple tails? I'm sure as soon as you tell me it will be obvious but right now the brain isn't functioning fully.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
AirTranTUS
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RE: Delta And The Winglet

Wed Oct 18, 2006 1:01 pm

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 5):
You've lost me on this one. Who has purple tails? I'm sure as soon as you tell me it will be obvious but right now the brain isn't functioning fully.

FedEx. The beginning of the ~90 they want.
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DAL767400ER
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RE: Delta And The Winglet

Wed Oct 18, 2006 5:14 pm

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 6):
FedEx. The beginning of the ~90 they want.

Wouldn't be a surprise, seeing as how FX already feasted on DL retiring their MD-11s and 727s.
 
deltagator
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RE: Delta And The Winglet

Wed Oct 18, 2006 9:07 pm

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 6):
FedEx. The beginning of the ~90 they want.

Ah, ok. I was thinking passenger and the only thing coming to mind was Eos.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
dl757md
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RE: Delta And The Winglet

Wed Oct 18, 2006 9:43 pm

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 4):
DL's oldest 757s will start retiring next year (purple tails anyone?)

Not sure of your rationale behind this. They're not that old and they're in great shape. They are WAAAAAYYY more reliable than the much newer POS MD-90s everyone on these boards seems to love. I know this because I work on both of them every night. The oldest 57 is coming up on 22 years and the first 50 or so are all 16+. If they do start retiring them what does your crystal ball say that they'll be replaced with?

Quoting RamerinianAir (Reply 2):
Some of their 757s are getting older now, it may be a waste to put them on now.

If Alitalia744 is right and they start retiring them soon then maybe they won't put them on them or if they could recoup part of the cost in a resale to FedEx.

DL757Md
757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Delta And The Winglet

Wed Oct 18, 2006 10:10 pm

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 9):
Not sure of your rationale behind this.

He's referring to this newspiece in the thread about DL buying the ex-TWA planes:
http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/new...omm_story.jsp?id=news/DAL10176.xml
The last sentence in that article is
"Delta currently has a fleet of 121 757s, but some of the older 757s will be retired in the coming years, Hauenstein said."
 
RandyWaldron
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RE: Delta And The Winglet

Thu Oct 19, 2006 2:35 am

I am so surprised, with the a.net geeks on here, that NO ONE remembers Delta's winglet program with the 727 in the 90's.

I guess I'll be the geek that posts it.

RW
"Flaps 20, gear down, landing checklist please..."
 
N160LH
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RE: Delta And The Winglet

Thu Oct 19, 2006 2:49 am

Quoting RandyWaldron (Reply 11):
I am so surprised, with the a.net geeks on here, that NO ONE remembers Delta's winglet program with the 727 in the 90's.

I totally remember that... If I remember correctly the company that was making them went out of business, so the program was scraped...

On another note... For some reason I remember hearing that DL had purchased 20 or 30 sets of winglets for the 737-800... I might be wrong... but I am pretty sure I remember hearing something to that affect...

On yet another note... I also heard that a company is doing R & D on winglets for the 767-300... and this would make all kinds of sense for DL...

-160
"I do alright up in the air, its down on the ground that I tend to mess up..."
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Delta And The Winglet

Thu Oct 19, 2006 3:24 am

Quoting RandyWaldron (Reply 11):
I guess I'll be the geek that posts it.

N510DA

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IIRC, they were produced by Valsan, however DL was not satisfied with the test results and dropped the program.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: Delta And The Winglet

Thu Oct 19, 2006 3:49 am

Please excuse this nieve question, but what exactly are the benifits of Winglets?
It is what it is...
 
aeroweanie
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RE: Delta And The Winglet

Thu Oct 19, 2006 4:01 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 14):
Please excuse this nieve question, but what exactly are the benifits of Winglets?

5% drag reduction in cruise.

Quoting N160LH (Reply 12):
On yet another note... I also heard that a company is doing R & D on winglets for the 767-300...

Aviation Partners Boeing announced this long ago...

APB just announced at NBAA that all the US government C-32s (757s) will be getting winglets.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 13):
IIRC, they were produced by Valsan, however DL was not satisfied with the test results and dropped the program.

Delta was pleased, but Boeing wasn't. They said that they would withdraw their warranty on the airframes if Delta kept the Valsan winglets on.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: Delta And The Winglet

Thu Oct 19, 2006 4:39 am

Quoting AeroWeanie (Reply 15):
5% drag reduction in cruise.

Will this make the aircrafts more fuel effecient? Handle turbulence better? I have to admit my knowledge of the functions of the aircrafts themselves is limited.
It is what it is...
 
phollingsworth
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RE: Delta And The Winglet

Thu Oct 19, 2006 4:43 am

Quoting AeroWeanie (Reply 15):
Delta was pleased, but Boeing wasn't. They said that they would withdraw their warranty on the airframes if Delta kept the Valsan winglets on.

This doesn't make a whole lot of sense. The airframes would have been out of Warranty by that point. Boeing could have threatened to not support the aircraft. However, they do have legal obligations to that effect because they hold the TC. The STC holder, Valsan, would have had obligations WRT the winglets and any design/stress changes to the wings.
 
B6WNQX
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RE: Delta And The Winglet

Thu Oct 19, 2006 4:49 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 16):
Will this make the aircrafts more fuel effecient? Handle turbulence better? I have to admit my knowledge of the functions of the aircrafts themselves is limited.

From what I have read it will reduce the overal fuel burn, although it has been argued whether or not the benefits exist on shorter flights. The winglets are also supposed to improve takeoff field performance.

These are just two things that I have heard of.
 
AirTranTUS
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RE: Delta And The Winglet

Thu Oct 19, 2006 5:29 am

Quoting B6WNQX (Reply 18):
From what I have read it will reduce the overal fuel burn, although it has been argued whether or not the benefits exist on shorter flights. The winglets are also supposed to improve takeoff field performance.

I wrote a research paper about winglets two years ago and this is whta I found out. The winglets reduce drag which means that the power setting is less for the same True Airspeed (TAS). With the reduced power setting, fuel burn is less and more fuel is available later in the flight, increasing range. If the pilot does not reduce power, however, there will be no major benefit. It will require more down trim because of the increased lift, so any good pilot will realize he should pull the power back instead.
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Alitalia744
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RE: Delta And The Winglet

Thu Oct 19, 2006 8:50 am

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 10):
He's referring to this newspiece in the thread about DL buying the ex-TWA planes:

thanks ol'german friend  Smile
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
dz09
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RE: Delta And The Winglet

Thu Oct 19, 2006 9:03 am

Improved performance or not, the 727 looks great with them winglets. Big fan of the B727. Only wish Boeing will come up with a new plane that resembles the B727, although I don't expect to see a new trijet ever.
 
gunsontheroof
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RE: Delta And The Winglet

Thu Oct 19, 2006 9:09 am

Delta could be trouble out of JFK across the pond with a fleet full of winglet-equipped 757s...
 
dl757md
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RE: Delta And The Winglet

Thu Oct 19, 2006 9:36 am

Quoting RandyWaldron (Reply 11):
I am so surprised, with the a.net geeks on here, that NO ONE remembers Delta's winglet program with the 727 in the 90's.

I helped install the left winglet on N511DA.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 10):
The last sentence in that article is
"Delta currently has a fleet of 121 757s, but some of the older 757s will be retired in the coming years, Hauenstein said."

Thanks. Hadn't heard that yet but sometimes we on the front lines are the last to know. I still think they have plenty of passenger life left in them.....aging aircraft or not.

DL757Md
757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
 
brettdespain
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RE: Delta And The Winglet

Thu Oct 19, 2006 10:46 am

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 4):
DL's 738s will be getting winglets

Not for sure.

The first dozen or so 738's we got do not have the necessary hard points installed in the wings necessary for the winglet kit. The remaining 738's do.

Here are the reasons we're hearing we may not get winglets on the 738:

1. The older 738's would have to be modified in order to attach winglets, thus it is more expensive to do that.

2. If we added the winglets to the late model 738's we have with the attachments points, it would result in an "uncommon fleet". Meaning some 738's with winglets some without. Why management is concerned about this escapes me, yet it is one of the reasons we've been told.

3. No money set aside for this right now. Winglets are still being actively studied, as is everything else right now that may save dollars, but Delta is still unsure if the large expense of buying and installing the winglets would be recouped by the fuel savings in the short term.

As for 738's flying transcon, you need to check our schedule more closely: They are flying many, many long haul transcon flights. Just flew this morning from IAD to SLC, about 04+38 flying time.

Brett
V1...Rotate.
 
Baron52ta
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RE: Delta And The Winglet

Thu Oct 19, 2006 11:25 am

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 19):
The winglets reduce drag which means that the power setting is less for the same True Airspeed (TAS).

just a note
The drag is lessened by the tip verticle causing a reduction in pressure bleed off the wing tip which in turn reduces wingtip vortecies, the greater the vortex the more the drag QED more power needed.
 
AirTranTUS
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RE: Delta And The Winglet

Thu Oct 19, 2006 12:12 pm

Quoting Baron52ta (Reply 25):
just a note
The drag is lessened by the tip verticle causing a reduction in pressure bleed off the wing tip which in turn reduces wingtip vortecies, the greater the vortex the more the drag QED more power needed.

I knew that but I did not feel like going into specifics that deep. It's been a long day.
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N1120A
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RE: Delta And The Winglet

Thu Oct 19, 2006 12:17 pm

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 1):
Let them get out of bankruptcy

Given how fast the winglets pay for themselves, they would be wise to get them asap.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Delta And The Winglet

Thu Oct 19, 2006 12:19 pm

Quoting Brettdespain (Reply 24):
Here are the reasons we're hearing we may not get winglets on the 738:

Everyone's hearing different things, your points make sense tho...

Quoting Brettdespain (Reply 24):
As for 738's flying transcon, you need to check our schedule more closely: They are flying many, many long haul transcon flights. Just flew this morning from IAD to SLC, about 04+38 flying time.

Never said they weren't flying transcons, flew a 738 a couple of weeks ago in First on JFK-LAX. You must be replying to someone else....
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Delta And The Winglet

Thu Oct 19, 2006 4:45 pm

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 23):
I still think they have plenty of passenger life left in them.....aging aircraft or not.

Very true. As long as the planes are properly maintained, I don't see a problem with the 757s staying until they push 30 years. After all, it's not like DL has tendency to retire their planes when they are still young  Wink *cough*L10, 762, 727, 732, DC-8, etc*cough*

Quoting Brettdespain (Reply 24):
Here are the reasons we're hearing we may not get winglets on the 738:

Interesting points, with cost certainly being the most logical of them. And uncommon fleet or not, winglets are necessary as the number of longer 738 routes continues to grow. Besides, DL will always have a few routes like ATL-LGA or ATL-RDU where winglets on the 738s don't really have much advantages. Keep the old 738s there, and the newer 738s on transcons and international flights. If Flight Scheduling is able to coordinate a 17h/day use out of the 777 next summer, scheduling 2 738 fleets really shouldn't be that hard  Wink .
 
wjcandee
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RE: Delta And The Winglet

Thu Oct 19, 2006 11:02 pm

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 23):
Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 10):
The last sentence in that article is
"Delta currently has a fleet of 121 757s, but some of the older 757s will be retired in the coming years, Hauenstein said."

Thanks. Hadn't heard that yet but sometimes we on the front lines are the last to know. I still think they have plenty of passenger life left in them.....aging aircraft or not.

There's a profound difference between the poster saying that they would be retired "starting next year", which I'll bet money is totally wrong, and "in the coming years", which could be 5 years out. Until their dispatch reliability starts truly sucking, I can't see them going anywhere. DL, thank God, doesn't retire aircraft just because they reach some artificial milestone in years.
 
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litz
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RE: Delta And The Winglet

Thu Oct 19, 2006 11:26 pm

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 29):
Very true. As long as the planes are properly maintained, I don't see a problem with the 757s staying until they push 30 years. After all, it's not like DL has tendency to retire their planes when they are still young Wink *cough*L10, 762, 727, 732, DC-8, etc*cough*

Considering every one of those 757s is getting a complete new interior (well, at least seats) there's not much point in forcibly pushing them out the door.

That's kinda like NWA getting rid of the DC9s 'cause they're old ... remember, they chucked off the eldest members of the fleet due to the costs of implementing RVSM, not because they were underperforming.

DL's 757s will be around for a very, very long time ... about the only reason I can think of that would cause an early departure for the eldest models, is if Fedex offers more for them than DL can turn down ....

Consider this food for thought as well : if you sell off a 757, what are you going to replace it with? The only thing with similar seating capacity is a 739, and it doesn't have the legs a '57 does ... and with DL moving the '67s to international flights, they NEED that capacity on the domestic front.

- litz

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