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PanAm_DC10
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Lufthansa Fleet Planning Update

Thu Oct 19, 2006 10:38 pm

LHs CEO has spoken more on their fleet procurement

Fair use excerpt

By Susanna Ray
Oct. 19 (Bloomberg) -- Deutsche Lufthansa AG, Europe's second-biggest airline, will wait until Airbus SAS decides whether to proceed with its planned A350 airplane before choosing between that model and Boeing Co.'s 787. ``We'd like to first see what the A350 looks like and then we'll decide which one to buy,'' Chief Executive Officer Wolfgang Mayrhuber said in an interview

[snip]

A decision about buying Boeing's 747-8 is ``not affected'' by Airbus's plans, Mayrhuber said. ``That's a different ballgame.'' The company's fleet manager, Nico Buchholz, said then that a decision would probably come in December. The carrier is also considering Boeing's 777-300ER model.


[END - Fair use excerpt http://www.bloomberg.net ]

Seems as though we may still get some of the order announced by December and when Airbus provide a final proposal for the A350-XWB we'll see a later decision.

Regards, PanAm_DC10
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NYC777
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RE: Lufthansa Fleet Planning Update

Thu Oct 19, 2006 10:52 pm

My opinion, take it for what it's worth, is that this order is going all Airbus. A350XWB, A380 maybe even a smattering of A330/A340s. This is a political order given all the trouble Airbus is having there will be some pressure on LH to order Airbus to keep jobs allive in Germany.

it won't matter if Boeing has a better offer or better aircraft. This order will go to Airbus.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
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USAF336TFS
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RE: Lufthansa Fleet Planning Update

Thu Oct 19, 2006 11:19 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 1):
it won't matter if Boeing has a better offer or better aircraft. This order will go to Airbus.

NYC777, I'd agree with you if we were just talking about a pax order, but what I'm hearing, is that the order will include freighters. If that proves true, then at best, it will be a mixed buy. Cargo has all but ruled out the A380F and all but said that their choices are between the 777F and/or 747-8F. Their competitors are ordering and the longer they put off the decision, the farther out their delivery dates. Something that Mayrhuber himself said he wants out of his fleet, is to not be beholden to either manufacturer. I personally take the man at his word.
I'm told that delivery slots are a major factor, as well. Politics aside, LH will buy the aircraft that best suits them. 10 years ago, I would say political pressure was much more of a factor, then today, in LH's case, at least.
I think it's safe to say, that both Boeing and Airbus will pull out all the stops to get this one.
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columba
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RE: Lufthansa Fleet Planning Update

Thu Oct 19, 2006 11:24 pm

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter):
A decision about buying Boeing's 747-8 is ``not affected'' by Airbus's plans, Mayrhuber said. ``That's a different ballgame.'' The company's fleet manager, Nico Buchholz, said then that a decision would probably come in December. The carrier is also considering Boeing's 777-300ER mode

I have said that in various threads before I guess that LH is now only evaluating which one fits their needs better as a 747-400 replacement the 777-300ER and the 747-8I.
Buchholz just recently said that they are not intending to buy more A380 at the moment. I guess in December we will see an order for either the 777-3000ER or the 747-8I.
A350 and 787 is going to be interesting.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
ZRH
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RE: Lufthansa Fleet Planning Update

Thu Oct 19, 2006 11:26 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 1):
This is a political order given all the trouble Airbus is having there will be some pressure on LH to order Airbus to keep jobs allive in Germany.



Quoting NYC777 (Reply 1):
it won't matter if Boeing has a better offer or better aircraft. This order will go to Airbus.

This is absolute nonsense. LH is a completely private owned airline. They are solely responsible to their share-holders. The management must absolutely not make any political decision. They only must do what is best for the company. If Boeing has better planes for their purposes they have to buy them!

[Edited 2006-10-19 16:29:03]
 
Leskova
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RE: Lufthansa Fleet Planning Update

Thu Oct 19, 2006 11:34 pm

Quoting ZRH (Reply 4):
This is absolute nonsense. LH is a completely private owned airline. They are solely responsible to their share-holders. The management must absolutely not make any political decision. They only must do what is best for the company. If Boeing has better planes for their purposes they have to buy them!

Don't worry - while most of us know that, some will always chose to remain living in their "everything in Germany and France is decided by politics"-dreamworld... and even if, god forbid, Airbus actually did offer the plane better suited for Lufthansa or, even worse, actually offered the 'better plane', an order for Airbus aircraft by LH will, by them, always be called a purely political decision - regardless of the facts.

I've given up even trying to convince these members - since, whatever you say, they will not believe you anyhow.
Smile - it confuses people!
 
fraport
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RE: Lufthansa Fleet Planning Update

Thu Oct 19, 2006 11:56 pm

I don't belong to those who always presume politics in LHs fleet plans but slowly I begin to wonder if their decisions are really that objective as they always claim. I'm just curious why they can wait for such a long time for a plane that may never be built, while they could not wait for Boeing in the early 90s when the A340 was some years ahead of the B777.
 
ZRH
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RE: Lufthansa Fleet Planning Update

Fri Oct 20, 2006 12:07 am

Quoting Fraport (Reply 6):
I'm just curious why they can wait for such a long time for a plane that may never be built, while they could not wait for Boeing in the early 90s when the A340 was some years ahead of the B777.

I think this relatively easy to answer. In the 90s they had old planes to replace soon. Now the 340, which would be replaced by the 787/350 are all relatively new and can be flown easily for 10 more years. In this case it is really reasonable to wait and see which aircraft would better fit to their need. BTW I think when LH ordered the 340 the 777 wasn't even launched (though not sure).
 
columba
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RE: Lufthansa Fleet Planning Update

Fri Oct 20, 2006 12:14 am

Quoting ZRH (Reply 7):
BTW I think when LH ordered the 340 the 777 wasn't even launched (though not sure).

At least the -200ER was not launched. Also ETOPS was an issue .
The race back then was more MD 11 vs. A340. LH did evaluate the MD 11 in the beginning but did not find it sufficient and went rather quick towards the Airbus TA11 program which later became the A340.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
eatmybologna
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RE: Lufthansa Fleet Planning Update

Fri Oct 20, 2006 12:22 am

Quoting ZRH (Reply 7):
BTW I think when LH ordered the 340 the 777 wasn't even launched (though not sure).

I doubt this to be true. You're saying that Boeing did not reveal any of their plans to LH during the order of 340's? Come on now.

Quoting Leskova (Reply 5):

I've given up even trying to convince these members - since, whatever you say, they will not believe you anyhow.

Because you are probably biased and closed minded when it comes to a national airline. Why don't you pull off the wool covering your eyes.

Quoting ZRH (Reply 4):
This is absolute nonsense. LH is a completely private owned airline. They are solely responsible to their share-holders.

Considering most of LH's stakeholders are German, they must consider appeasing them with a grass routes decision.

Cheers,

E-M-B
Isn't knowledge more than just the acquisition of information? Shouldn't the acquired information be correct?
 
ZRH
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RE: Lufthansa Fleet Planning Update

Fri Oct 20, 2006 12:26 am

Quoting Columba (Reply 8):
The race back then was more MD 11 vs. A340.

Yes, you are absolutely right. I now remember, in those days Swissair had to make the decision between the MD 11 and the A 340. They chose the MD 11. There was still the ETOPS question and nobody new yet if it will be possible to fly long over-sea legs with only two engines. This was also the reason why Airbus built an four holer and not only the 330.
 
fraport
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RE: Lufthansa Fleet Planning Update

Fri Oct 20, 2006 12:28 am

Quoting ZRH (Reply 7):
BTW I think when LH ordered the 340 the 777 wasn't even launched (though not sure).

Is the A350XWB officially launched? Enders publicly philosophises about a possible end of the whole program. To say it again, I don't want to imply politics but it seems not very logical to me to wait for a plane that's far away from design freeze while assembly of the prototype of its competitor has already begun.
 
ZRH
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RE: Lufthansa Fleet Planning Update

Fri Oct 20, 2006 12:32 am

Quoting Fraport (Reply 11):
To say it again, I don't want to imply politics but it seems not very logical to me to wait for a plane that's far away from design freeze while assembly of the prototype of its competitor has already begun.

As I already said, it is only a question of time. LH is not in a hurry at all. They have enough time to wait and see which will be the better aircraft. If they had to replace aircrafts very soon they of course should order the 787.
 
columba
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RE: Lufthansa Fleet Planning Update

Fri Oct 20, 2006 12:36 am

Quoting Eatmybologna (Reply 9):
I doubt this to be true. You're saying that Boeing did not reveal any of their plans to LH during the order of 340's? Come on now.

I imagine reading an old article from the late 80s in which it was stated that LH is evaluating Airbus TA11 program (later A340) and the MD 11 as a replacement for their DC 10s.
Boeing followed Airbus and MD much later with the 777 and the first version the 777-200A was of no interest of LH.
Much later -must have been 1993/1994 LH was already flying the A340- I have read in a German Aviation magazine called Aero International that LH was thinking of ordering 777s.
I remember searching the following issues of Aero International for more news on this but never found anything regarding this matter.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: Lufthansa Fleet Planning Update

Fri Oct 20, 2006 12:36 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 1):
This is a political order given all the trouble Airbus is having there will be some pressure on LH to order Airbus to keep jobs allive in Germany.

Yet again the usual "LH orders = political" drivel...  Yeah sure

If there were any political pressure on LH by German politicians, the media would find it out and jump on it. And don't even start to suggest the media are also under pressure...

Fact is LH has been privately owned and professionally run for many years - people who suggest "political influence" should either present a reliable source or stop spreading nonsense.

Btw - Lufthansa has just announced to create more than 700 new jobs at its MUC hub. They don't need save jobs elsewhere, they create them.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 1):
it won't matter if Boeing has a better offer or better aircraft.

Source? Have you talked to Mr. Mayrhuber lately?

Quoting Fraport (Reply 6):
I'm just curious why they can wait for such a long time for a plane that may never be built, while they could not wait for Boeing in the early 90s when the A340 was some years ahead of the B777.

Apart from the fact that they needed a replacement as soon as possible, LH is a totally different company today.

Quoting Eatmybologna (Reply 9):

Because you are probably biased and closed minded when it comes to a national airline. Why don't you pull off the wool covering your eyes.

LH isn't even Frank's national airline...  Smile

Quoting Eatmybologna (Reply 9):
Considering most of LH's stakeholders are German, they must consider appeasing them with a grass routes decision.

The stakeholders are interested in profits and that's what LH's management has been delivering for years.


PH
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Stitch
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RE: Lufthansa Fleet Planning Update

Fri Oct 20, 2006 12:38 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 1):
My opinion, take it for what it's worth, is that this order is going all Airbus. A350XWB, A380 maybe even a smattering of A330/A340s. This is a political order given all the trouble Airbus is having there will be some pressure on LH to order Airbus to keep jobs alive in Germany.

If the order does go all-Airbus, it will have nothing to do with "preserving German jobs at Airbus" and everything to do with "preserving German jobs at LH" by purchasing the right equipment to keep LH profitable over the next two decades.

Quoting Columba (Reply 3):
I have said that in various threads before I guess that LH is now only evaluating which one fits their needs better as a 747-400 replacement the 777-300ER and the 747-8I. Buchholz just recently said that they are not intending to buy more A380 at the moment. I guess in December we will see an order for either the 777-3000ER or the 747-8I. A350 and 787 is going to be interesting.

I really wish I knew why Boeing decided to go with making the 747-8I the same length as the 747-8F. Is it because that is what airlines want? Or is it to try and leverage more of the 747-8F's development costs and workload to the 747-8I to make it cheaper to launch the model?

I can't see LH buying the 777-300ER. It has nothing to do with the quality of the plane. It's just that LH has a large A346 fleet and they can get more real fast with EK no longer taking theirs. That LH hasn't jumped on them makes me think they don't need additional capacity in that segment.

As such, while I have stated in the past I thought the longer 747-8I would make it unappealing to LH, perhaps LH only wants the A380 for a few core trunk routes to/from FRA and LHR where slots and capacity really are going to be an issue? Could they feel the 744 is "just fine" for everything else and wanted a bigger 747-8I to give them extra space to put in nicer future cabins or a few extra seats? A large 748I and 748F order (two dozen of each?) would offer them commonality and probably get a great deal from Boeing in both price and delivery dates.

LH has nothing to lose to see where the A350XWB and 787-10 programs end up. As noted, their A343s and A346s are hardly ancient so they are not in an immediate need to replace them. The current A3510 is closer to the 787-10 in size then the A346, so I do see the 787-10 as much a viable replacement for the A346 fleet as the A3510 is.

[Edited 2006-10-19 17:45:26]
 
AA777
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RE: Lufthansa Fleet Planning Update

Fri Oct 20, 2006 12:42 am

Oh man. How I would love to see a 77W in LH colors. Same goes with the 787...... and 748i. I'm sure they will order at least ONE of these... but who knows which one(s) they will select.

-AA777
 
columba
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RE: Lufthansa Fleet Planning Update

Fri Oct 20, 2006 12:43 am

Quoting Fraport (Reply 6):
I don't belong to those who always presume politics in LHs fleet plans but slowly I begin to wonder if their decisions are really that objective as they always claim. I'm just curious why they can wait for such a long time for a plane that may never be built, while they could not wait for Boeing in the early 90s when the A340 was some years ahead of the B777.

Also keep in mind that they critised both airplanes the A350 and the 787.
The 787 would be too small for their needs -the -9 being the minimum they would need and the A350 (VS 1.0  Wink ) having not enough range.
Airbus has done some re-work now and could live up to LH expectations while we still not now what Boeing is planning with the 787-10.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
ZRH
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RE: Lufthansa Fleet Planning Update

Fri Oct 20, 2006 12:45 am

Quoting Eatmybologna (Reply 9):
Considering most of LH's stakeholders are German, they must consider appeasing them with a grass routes decision.

Do you really believe what you say? When I am a stakeholder then it is my money and I only want a good decision for the company and my shares and for sure no nationalistic decisions.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Lufthansa Fleet Planning Update

Fri Oct 20, 2006 12:49 am

Quoting Eatmybologna (Reply 9):
Considering most of LH's stakeholders are German, they must consider appeasing them with a grass routes decision.



Quoting ZRH (Reply 18):
Do you really believe what you say? When I am a stakeholder then it is my money and I only want a good decision for the company and my shares and for sure no nationalistic decisions.

 checkmark 

And to add to that, consider the actions Boeing and the US airlines have taken to outsource and offshore much of their workforce, none of which are "grass root" decisions.

Or is your assertion that only German shareholders care about keeping jobs local?
 
columba
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RE: Lufthansa Fleet Planning Update

Fri Oct 20, 2006 12:52 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 15):
I really wish I knew why Boeing decided to go with making the 747-8I the same length as the 747-8F. Is it because that is what airlines want? Or is it to try and leverage more of the 747-8F's development costs and workload to the 747-8I to make it cheaper to launch the model?

There are rumors floating around that LH was one of the airlines pushing Boeing to make the 747-8I the same length as the 747-8F.
LH was looking for an aircraft that is filling the gap between the A346 and A380. A longer 747-8I would make indeed sense:

LH flies its 747-400s now with 330 seats (16F+80C+234Y) before 390.
The A340-600 has 306 seats and the A380 will have around 500-550 seats. The stretched 747-8 would now have around 400 seats and would now fill this gap between the A380 and A346 perfectly.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
eatmybologna
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RE: Lufthansa Fleet Planning Update

Fri Oct 20, 2006 1:01 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 19):

Or is your assertion that only German shareholders care about keeping jobs local?

No.

Stakeholders/shareholders wish for many things. Profit, of course, is one. Keeping jobs local is another. It comes down to a reaching a balance, and the executive board keeps this in mind when making decisions.

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 14):
LH isn't even Frank's national airline... Smile

I'm sorry if I made a mistake, but the last time I checked, I thought the black, gold, and red flag next to his name was Deutsch.

Cheers,

E-M-B
Isn't knowledge more than just the acquisition of information? Shouldn't the acquired information be correct?
 
columba
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RE: Lufthansa Fleet Planning Update

Fri Oct 20, 2006 1:02 am

Well I had to hold my breath for a second as I have read the following headline:
"Lufthansa Technik shows luxury cabin of Boeing 787"
It was refering to the 787 business jet which LH will convert

Source in German:
http://www.welt.de/data/2006/10/19/1076805.html
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
AirSpare
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RE: Lufthansa Fleet Planning Update

Fri Oct 20, 2006 1:02 am

The only "politik" that I have heard with my own ears, was from a Lufthansa pilot, we spent a few days BSing at SVX (ex Luftwaffe F-4, GIB as they say in the USAF for Guy in Back, or WSO, call sign Jumbo).

We're both married to Brasilians, had the Cold War in common so we had some good conversations about Brasil, the Soviet threat, F-4s, etc. He said most Lufthansa pilots preferred the B product, but that was changing as the average pilot age was getting younger.

Whatever LH chooses, I hope they make you a ton of money!
Get someone else for your hero worship fetish
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: Lufthansa Fleet Planning Update

Fri Oct 20, 2006 1:04 am

Quoting Eatmybologna (Reply 21):
Stakeholders/shareholders wish for many things. Profit, of course, is one. Keeping jobs local is another. It comes down to a reaching a balance, and the executive board keeps this in mind when making decisions.

That's all fine - but is there any piece of evidence in LH's case?

Quoting Eatmybologna (Reply 21):
I'm sorry if I made a mistake, but the last time I checked, I thought the black, gold, and red flag next to his name was Deutsch.

Yes, the flag is German...and?


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
eatmybologna
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RE: Lufthansa Fleet Planning Update

Fri Oct 20, 2006 1:08 am

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 24):
That's all fine - but is there any piece of evidence in LH's case?

Yes.

Past behavior has set a precedent.

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 24):
Yes, the flag is German...and?

His profile lists his country as German.

Is there something that you want to tell that's different, because his profile states otherwise.

E-M-B
Isn't knowledge more than just the acquisition of information? Shouldn't the acquired information be correct?
 
boeingbus
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RE: Lufthansa Fleet Planning Update

Fri Oct 20, 2006 1:13 am

These statements by LH is only to push Airbus to invest in a new twin so that there is no monopoly in long range twin jets. Smart if you ask me... For LH is concerned they will get a better pricing and product if competition is involved.

just my 2 cents.
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
Johnny
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RE: Lufthansa Fleet Planning Update

Fri Oct 20, 2006 1:14 am

@ Columba
"Also keep in mind that they critised both airplanes the A350 and the 787.
The 787 would be too small for their needs -the -9 being the minimum they would need and the A350 (VS 1.0 Wink ) having not enough range.
Airbus has done some re-work now and could live up to LH expectations while we still not now what Boeing is planning with the 787-10."

Not to forget that LH is just trying to push Airbus on a bigger A350-1000 than currently planned!

It is one of the most interesting and open fleet replacements.They really seem to have no preference for B or A - they are really looking at both.

 Smile
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: Lufthansa Fleet Planning Update

Fri Oct 20, 2006 1:17 am

Quoting Eatmybologna (Reply 25):
Past behavior has set a precedent.

Interesting - which one? And even if - is that a piece of evidence for today's strategy?

Quoting Eatmybologna (Reply 25):

His profile lists his country as German.

Flags can also inform about users' current locations, not just about nationality.


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
Ken777
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RE: Lufthansa Fleet Planning Update

Fri Oct 20, 2006 1:23 am

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter):
`We'd like to first see what the A350 looks like and then we'll decide which one to buy,'' Chief Executive Officer Wolfgang Mayrhuber said in an interview

Sort of an odd phrase - it seems to imply that LH has finalized its review of the 787 and is ready to buy it if Airbus doesn't impress them more than a little with the XWB.

While the 340s in LH's fleet may be relatively new the airline might be looking at replacement reasonably fast simply because they have learned that fuel costs can have some wild swings these days. We're certainly not protected from another increase in the future, or even $100 oil. If an airline can handle the financing then moving to fuel efficiency is at the top of smart management's list of things to do.

My bet is that LH goes with the 748i to some degree, with options for more. The 787 will depend on how the XWB looks to them, but I believe that they are impressed with the 787. The 777 might get orders, but I believe that the 748i has the upper hand.

Against the Boeing potential I believe it is important to remember that Airbus has had a difficult year in terms of sales and they are going to be working very hard for this order. It may well be that Airbus will be sufficiently aggressive in winning the order that they will get, at a minimum, a nice chunk. If they do then we'll know where Leahy has been recently.
 
eatmybologna
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RE: Lufthansa Fleet Planning Update

Fri Oct 20, 2006 1:31 am

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 28):

Interesting - which one? And even if - is that a piece of evidence for today's strategy?

Why don't you read and consider the aforementioned and unbiased replies from this thread?

As far as whether past set precedence is evidence on how they'll strategize and act today, they'll most likely continue the status quo IMHO.

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 28):
Flags can also inform about users' current locations, not just about nationality.

Thanks for the tidbit. I didn't know that.


Is there something you can share with me that his profile states otherwise? Or, am I not worth your effort?

Regards,

E-M-B

[Edited 2006-10-19 18:33:29]
Isn't knowledge more than just the acquisition of information? Shouldn't the acquired information be correct?
 
Leskova
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RE: Lufthansa Fleet Planning Update

Fri Oct 20, 2006 1:34 am

Quoting Eatmybologna (Reply 9):
Quoting Leskova (Reply 5):

I've given up even trying to convince these members - since, whatever you say, they will not believe you anyhow.

Because you are probably biased and closed minded when it comes to a national airline. Why don't you pull off the wool covering your eyes.

Oh well... what can I say... or what can I say that PlaneHunter hasn't already said... Big grin

Quoting Eatmybologna (Reply 21):
Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 14):
LH isn't even Frank's national airline... Smile

I'm sorry if I made a mistake, but the last time I checked, I thought the black, gold, and red flag next to his name was Deutsch.



Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 28):
Quoting Eatmybologna (Reply 25):

His profile lists his country as German.

Flags can also inform about users' current locations, not just about nationality.

Sorry if it seems strange to you, but though I live in Germany, I'm not a German national... I've also lived in the US for a few years, yet I'm no US national...

So if you'd take off your nationalistic glasses, you might recognize that there just could be some truth in what I've posted up there...

Up to now, there's evidence to support the claim that LH's fleet decisions have been, and will be, motivated purely by what is the best decision for them regarding the overall package.

I'm not doubting that the B777 is, in terms of economics, superior to the A340 when viewed on a stand-alone basis... but that's always been just one part of the decision - there's much more involved.
Smile - it confuses people!
 
krisyyz
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RE: Lufthansa Fleet Planning Update

Fri Oct 20, 2006 1:39 am

Airbus is in a horrible position at the moment.

The A380 delay causing Airbus to delay the A350, right when BA and LH start looking to replace a large part of their wide body fleets. If Airbus doesn't produce reasonable and promising targets/specs for the A350, both airlines may order the B787 because there is no reasonable alternative.

LH currently operates the biggest aircraft Airbus and Boeing has to offer. A mixed A380 and B748 fleet would be inline with their current fleet make-up.

KrisYYZ
 
Johnny
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RE: Lufthansa Fleet Planning Update

Fri Oct 20, 2006 1:41 am

I still believe LHs biggest problem to order the B787 is the lack of crew commonality with the rest of the medium sized widebodies.
We have to see that after all currently ordered A330s/340s for both LH and LX we are talking about 83 airplanes!

A332 11 LX
A333 15 LH
A343 40 LH/LX
A346 17 LH

If they really decide to order it, they would need a big fleet to justify the costs for a additional subtype OR they have make a complete cut and give all the A330s/340s away for a single B787-fleet in different versions.That is very expensive!

In contrast if they go the A350-way, we can expect a short conversion time and most probably a common A330/340/350 Type-Rating.So it would be easier to introduce one A350-version after the other to replace the A330/340-Family step by step.

In case of the B747-400-replacement the situation is different as we can see that as combined LH/Cargo order either with the B747-8I/F or B777-300ER/-200F.So they build up a family with the new airplanes, they do not have one already!

Johnny

If i could decide it i think a B747-8I/F-order AND the A350XWB makes more and more sense to me.As much as i would like to see the B777-300ER!!!
 
AirbusA6
Posts: 1484
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RE: Lufthansa Fleet Planning Update

Fri Oct 20, 2006 1:49 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 29):
While the 340s in LH's fleet may be relatively new the airline might be looking at replacement reasonably fast simply because they have learned that fuel costs can have some wild swings these days. We're certainly not protected from another increase in the future, or even $100 oil. If an airline can handle the financing then moving to fuel efficiency is at the top of smart management's list of things to do.

But then selling relatively new aircraft at a significant loss isn't good business either...

The way people talk about the A346, you'd have thought it was a 707 or VC10. It's less efficient than the 77W, but I presume it's better than the 744 or MD11?
it's the bus to stansted (now renamed National Express a6 to ruin my username)
 
PlaneHunter
Posts: 6512
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:17 am

RE: Lufthansa Fleet Planning Update

Fri Oct 20, 2006 1:57 am

Quoting Eatmybologna (Reply 30):
Why don't you read and consider the aforementioned and unbiased replies from this thread?

Which one exactly? Where's the evidence?

Quoting Eatmybologna (Reply 30):
As far as whether past set precedence is evidence on how they'll strategize and act today, they'll most likely continue the status quo IMHO.

Which status quo - "political orders"?


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
MEACEDAR
Posts: 682
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RE: Lufthansa Fleet Planning Update

Fri Oct 20, 2006 2:06 am

I would love to see LH in a B764. And maybe a B787.
 
ZRH
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RE: Lufthansa Fleet Planning Update

Fri Oct 20, 2006 2:08 am

Quoting Johnny (Reply 33):
If i could decide it i think a B747-8I/F-order AND the A350XWB makes more and more sense to me.As much as i would like to see the B777-300ER!!!

I absolutely agree. The 777-300ER does not make sense because it is the same generation of aircraft as the 340. Why replace an aircraft which is relatively new (340) with an aircraft which is the same generation (although more efficient) when you can get all new aircrafts as the 787 and 350 are? Again: LH can wait probably up to 8 to 10 years still to replace the 340.
 
eatmybologna
Posts: 375
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RE: Lufthansa Fleet Planning Update

Fri Oct 20, 2006 2:08 am

Quoting Leskova (Reply 31):
Sorry if it seems strange to you, but though I live in Germany, I'm not a German national... I've also lived in the US for a few years, yet I'm no US national...

No, it doesn't seem strange to me. I've also lived in other parts of the world, Marburg, Germany and Flekkefjord, Norway to name a few. When living in those locations, I grew an affinity for the each of the communities and cared for the wellfare of these societies.

Nationalism could be defined as devotion to the interests or culture of one's nation. Not necessarilly where you were born and raised.

Quoting Leskova (Reply 31):
So if you'd take off your nationalistic glasses, you might recognize that there just could be some truth in what I've posted up there...

I don't have to remove my glasses as I already recognize this as a possibility. I suggest you remove the vise from your head and recognize that what I posted could have some merit as well.

~E-M-B
Isn't knowledge more than just the acquisition of information? Shouldn't the acquired information be correct?
 
scaledesigns
Posts: 199
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:12 am

RE: Lufthansa Fleet Planning Update

Fri Oct 20, 2006 2:13 am

Lets just say LH seems to have a softspot for Airbus,no matter what
they offer.As said before,they have every major non military type produced
by Airbus(A318-A321 are basically the same type).Its a free world,so thats their right!!
F1 Tommy
 
columba
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Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:12 pm

RE: Lufthansa Fleet Planning Update

Fri Oct 20, 2006 2:16 am

Quoting ZRH (Reply 37):
I absolutely agree. The 777-300ER does not make sense because it is the same generation of aircraft as the 340. Why replace an aircraft which is relatively new (340) with an aircraft which is the same generation (although more efficient) when you can get all new aircrafts as the 787 and 350 are? Again: LH can wait probably up to 8 to 10 years still to replace the 340.

Well the 777-300ER is a bit newer than the A340-300 and many impovements have been made since the early 90s.
I see the possibility of LH choosing the 777 as high as BA choosing the A330.
Neither the A330 and the 777 are outdates aircraft even if some people always are claiming that the 777 is dead because of the A350 or the A330 is dead because of the 787.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
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Stitch
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RE: Lufthansa Fleet Planning Update

Fri Oct 20, 2006 2:20 am

Quoting Johnny (Reply 33):
I still believe LHs biggest problem to order the B787 is the lack of crew commonality with the rest of the medium sized widebodies...If they really decide to order it, they would need a big fleet to justify the costs for a additional subtype OR they have make a complete cut...for a single B787-fleet in different versions. That is very expensive!

Yes, crew re-training costs going to the A350 will be cheaper then going to the 787, but I imagine LH's pilots are skilled enough to cross-train on the 787 while still flying their A330s and A340s during the transition period should LH feel that an all-787 fleet is the prudent choice.  Smile
 
ZRH
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RE: Lufthansa Fleet Planning Update

Fri Oct 20, 2006 2:24 am

Quoting Columba (Reply 40):
Neither the A330 and the 777 are outdates aircraft even if some people always are claiming that the 777 is dead because of the A350 or the A330 is dead because of the 787.

You are right, they are not outdated when you need new aircrafts in the next few years, but when you only need them in 8 to 10 years then I see no sense to buy the 330 or 777.
 
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N328KF
Posts: 5806
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 3:50 am

RE: Lufthansa Fleet Planning Update

Fri Oct 20, 2006 2:24 am

Quoting Johnny (Reply 33):
I still believe LHs biggest problem to order the B787 is the lack of crew commonality with the rest of the medium sized widebodies.

Yeah, right. On a large carrier like LH, I have serious reservations about the notion that they would ditch the 787 just because it had a new cockpit. If that were the case, why isn't Lufthansa flying Ju-52s?

There are many factors that are more important than this.

Quoting ZRH (Reply 37):
I absolutely agree. The 777-300ER does not make sense because it is the same generation of aircraft as the 340. Why replace an aircraft which is relatively new (340) with an aircraft which is the same generation (although more efficient) when you can get all new aircrafts as the 787 and 350 are? Again: LH can wait probably up to 8 to 10 years still to replace the 340.

While I don't see LH going with a 777, I don't think this is a valid argument. Just look at all of the A340 operators that have gone the way of the 777.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
BR076
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RE: Lufthansa Fleet Planning Update

Fri Oct 20, 2006 2:25 am

Quoting Scaledesigns (Reply 39):
Lets just say LH seems to have a softspot for Airbus,no matter what
they offer.As said before,they have every major non military type produced
by Airbus(A318-A321 are basically the same type).Its a free world,so thats their right!!

And they are a very profitable airline , so they must be do something right.
ú
 
eatmybologna
Posts: 375
Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 3:21 am

RE: Lufthansa Fleet Planning Update

Fri Oct 20, 2006 2:28 am

You know Udo, for an editor, you certainly have difficulties make sense of others’ writing.

But I’ll make it easier for you.

I wrote the following:

1. Considering most of LH's stakeholders are German, they must consider appeasing them with a grass routes decision.

2. Stakeholders/shareholders wish for many things. Profit, of course, is one. Keeping jobs local is another. It comes down to a reaching a balance, and the executive board keeps this in mind when making decisions.

I’ll recapitulate by stating that IMHO, I believe LH will most likely behave in a nationalistic manner when it comes to strategic decisions on future orders due to their devotion and interests to the peoples and stakeholders of their nation.

Just my two pfennig.

E-M-B

[Edited 2006-10-19 19:29:54]
Isn't knowledge more than just the acquisition of information? Shouldn't the acquired information be correct?
 
scaledesigns
Posts: 199
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:12 am

RE: Lufthansa Fleet Planning Update

Fri Oct 20, 2006 2:30 am

BRO76,your right...But they could be doing even better with 777s on the A340 routes!!!Maybe they will have them soon!
F1 Tommy
 
columba
Posts: 5043
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:12 pm

RE: Lufthansa Fleet Planning Update

Fri Oct 20, 2006 2:31 am

Quote:
BERLIN (Reuters) - Deutsche Lufthansa Chief Executive Wolfgang Mayrhuber said he would wait for more information on Airbus's planned A350 XWB mid-sized aircraft before making a decision on renewing its long-haul fleet.
"We do have some information (about the A350) but (Airbus) are not yet in a situation where we can make a decision," Mayrhuber told Reuters on the fringes of an air transport conference in Berlin on Thursday.
The chief executive said he would not put himself under any time pressure to make a decision and that it would not matter if it was "in December or in March".
Lufthansa last month announced it was buying 30 Airbus A320-family aircraft with options for 30 more, as well as 5 A330s to offset delays to the A380 superjumbo, of which it has ordered 15.
The carrier said then it would make a decision on further long-haul aircraft before the end of the year.
Airbus has said it plans to make a decision on the future of the A350 XWB in the next weeks. Production problems with the A380 that have led to two-year delays have plunged the planemaker into a crisis and forced it to re-examine its projects and restructure the business.
Lufthansa wants to weigh up the A350 against Boeing's 787 Dreamliner, which is set to enter service in 2008, at least 4 years ahead of the rival Airbus model should it go ahead.
"We don't mind having two different manufacturers (in long-haul)," Mayrhuber said. "We choose on what has the best equipment at the time we buy."
Lufthansa is Europe's second-biggest airline.


http://in.news.yahoo.com/061019/137/68my9.html
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
PlaneHunter
Posts: 6512
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:17 am

RE: Lufthansa Fleet Planning Update

Fri Oct 20, 2006 2:37 am

Quoting Eatmybologna (Reply 45):
1. Considering most of LH's stakeholders are German, they must consider appeasing them with a grass routes decision.

2. Stakeholders/shareholders wish for many things. Profit, of course, is one. Keeping jobs local is another. It comes down to a reaching a balance, and the executive board keeps this in mind when making decisions.

I’ll recapitulate by stating that IMHO, I believe LH will most likely behave in a nationalistic manner when it comes to strategic decisions on future orders due to their devotion and interests to the peoples and stakeholders of their nation.

You are free to have an opinion, but I have requested facts. Where's a reliable source that backs your view? Where's the ultimate evidence that LH orders European because its shareholders care about local jobs?

Btw - no need to get personal over that, but I guess you have your reasons to do so...  Yeah sure


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
Leskova
Posts: 5547
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 3:39 pm

RE: Lufthansa Fleet Planning Update

Fri Oct 20, 2006 2:45 am

Quoting Eatmybologna (Reply 45):
1. Considering most of LH's stakeholders are German, they must consider appeasing them with a grass routes decision.

They certainly must consider appeasing their shareholders, but last time they published the respective quotas, 40% were non-German. Add to that the fact that quite a lot of shares are in the hands of institutional investors, and you'll see that 'keeping it local' is a distant second to 'making profit'.

Quoting Eatmybologna (Reply 45):
Just my two pfennig.

Those haven't existed for quite a few years now...  Wink

And, by the way, I'm not saying that there's absolutely no chance that LH will, indeed, make political decisions instead of financial decisions - it's just that all evidence I have point firmly in the other direction. I apologise for my rather harsh tone in my previous post, it's just that I do occasionally get tired of reading these comments again and again, while (as mentioned) the evidence I have seen doesn't support those claims. But, hey, you're certainly entitled to your own opinion... and while I completely disagree with your assesment, it could as well be who's way from the truth.
Smile - it confuses people!

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