MEACEDAR
Topic Author
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Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:57 am

United Fleet Update

Sat Oct 21, 2006 12:26 am

When is UA going to update there fleet? Everyone is talking about fleet updates for all the rest of the airlines except UA. I know they are climbing at of bankruptcy, but so are half the other ailrines. What do you'll think?
 
LAXintl
Posts: 20183
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: United Fleet Update

Sat Oct 21, 2006 12:35 am

Is been discussed here several times.

As part of their Ch11 exit, the carrier has covenants that bar capital expenditures and debt for aircraft. Hence the company has repeatedly said, no new aircraft will be on property until very late in the decade

The airline does hold 40 or so A32x options which were affirmed in the Ch11 process so its quite possible they will get exercised in the next few years and could be used for either expansion, or help replace the 737 fleet further.

It could well be that this path allows UA to luck out and miss the next industry down cycle by not expecting new aircraft which can become very severe financial burden during slow times.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
unitednrt
Posts: 261
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2006 3:43 am

RE: United Fleet Update

Sat Oct 21, 2006 1:02 am

Has not changed much.

64 B737.322
30 B737.522
30 B747.422
97 B757.222
35 B767.322/ER
52 B777.222/ER
55 A319.131
97 A320.232


Note.
23 A319.131 are on order for delivery in 2011 as are 18 A320.232.

Also, 56 A320 are designated A32S which operate as United for Ted.
"...That's a lovely name. My name's Milton; Milton Ettenheim, but my friends call me Bubbles."
 
supa7E7
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RE: United Fleet Update

Sat Oct 21, 2006 1:09 am

Do they really have that many planes? Good grief. That is humbling for, oh, just about everybody.
"Who's to say spaceships aren't fine art?" - Phil Lesh
 
bmacleod
Posts: 2453
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2001 3:10 am

RE: United Fleet Update

Sat Oct 21, 2006 1:10 am

Quoting UnitedNRT (Reply 2):
Has not changed much.

64 B737.322
30 B737.522
30 B747.422
97 B757.222
35 B767.322/ER
52 B777.222/ER
55 A319.131
97 A320.232

When did UA retire their 767.222/ERs?
The engine is the heart of an airplane, but the pilot is its soul.
 
LAXintl
Posts: 20183
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: United Fleet Update

Sat Oct 21, 2006 1:12 am

Quoting Bmacleod (Reply 4):
When did UA retire their 767.222/ERs?

Early '05 once they had enough p.s. configured aircraft.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
MEACEDAR
Topic Author
Posts: 682
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RE: United Fleet Update

Sat Oct 21, 2006 1:51 am

No wonder they were in Cha. 11. They have soooo many airplanes with not a lot of people flying them. I think that they should start selling the planes they own, and start to lease instead. This is way to much A/C for an airline. What do you think?
 
zvezda
Posts: 8891
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: United Fleet Update

Sat Oct 21, 2006 2:01 am

Quoting UnitedNRT (Reply 2):
23 A319.131 are on order for delivery in 2011 as are 18 A320.232.

When did delivery dates get set?

Quoting MEACEDAR (Reply 6):
They have soooo many airplanes with not a lot of people flying them.

Loads are high, yields are low.

Quoting MEACEDAR (Reply 6):
I think that they should start selling the planes they own, and start to lease instead.

They are nearly all leased.
 
ord
Posts: 1354
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 1999 10:34 pm

RE: United Fleet Update

Sat Oct 21, 2006 2:03 am

Quoting MEACEDAR (Reply 6):
They have soooo many airplanes with not a lot of people flying them.

They had a 79.5% load factor systemwide in September. How can you say not a lot of people are flying United?
 
MEACEDAR
Topic Author
Posts: 682
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RE: United Fleet Update

Sat Oct 21, 2006 2:05 am

Quoting ORD (Reply 8):

They had a 79.5% load factor systemwide in September. How can you say not a lot of people are flying United?

Why were they in Cha. 11? If they are not making money, people are not flying. Please enlighten me on the facts that you stated above.
 
zvezda
Posts: 8891
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: United Fleet Update

Sat Oct 21, 2006 2:15 am

Quoting MEACEDAR (Reply 9):
Why were they in Cha. 11? If they are not making money, people are not flying. Please enlighten me on the facts that you stated above.

They were (and are, to a lesser extent) filling planes with fares so low that they don't cover their costs.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: United Fleet Update

Sat Oct 21, 2006 2:20 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 1):
The airline does hold 40 or so A32x options which were affirmed in the Ch11 process so its quite possible they will get exercised in the next few years and could be used for either expansion, or help replace the 737 fleet further.

United is currently in a major crunch for mainline domestic capacity, to the point that they have had to use Ted aircraft as part of an interim solution in moving the fleet around and that hasn't helped them with their frequent flyers and higher yield customers. That, and the fact that their 737Classic fleet is among the newest and most advanced flying should combine to mean the 737s are sticking around for quite a while. Further, United has those 735s at a rather low capital cost, giving them a just over 100 seater with a decent CASM, something most of the US majors wish they could have.

Quoting MEACEDAR (Thread starter):
When is UA going to update there fleet? Everyone is talking about fleet updates for all the rest of the airlines except UA

Actually, United has one of the newer fleets out there and probably did the most fleet renewal pre-9/11 of any of the legacies other than CO and US. It just happens they haven't gone for 787s yet.

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 3):
Do they really have that many planes? Good grief. That is humbling for, oh, just about everybody.

Not really. Take a look at the fleets at American, Southwest or Delta sometime

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 7):
When did delivery dates get set?

As part of Ch. 11 emergence

Quoting MEACEDAR (Reply 6):
No wonder they were in Cha. 11. They have soooo many airplanes with not a lot of people flying them.

Actually, plenty of people have been flying, United's revenue management and overreliance on regional flying is what has hurt them. They don't have soooo many airplanes compared to their competition

Quoting MEACEDAR (Reply 6):
This is way to much A/C for an airline. What do you think?

No. And here is why

AMERICAN AIRLINES INC

AIRBUS A-300 34
BOEING B-737 77
BOEING B-757 143
BOEING B-767 78
BOEING B-777 46
DOUG DC-9 353 (All MD80s)

DELTA AIR LINES INC

BOEING B-737 95
BOEING B-757 121
BOEING B-767 107
BOEING B-777 8
DOUG MD-88 120
DOUG MD-90 16

NORTHWEST AIRLINES INC

AIRBUS A-319 66
AIRBUS A-320 75
AIRBUS A-330 21
BOEING B-747 43
BOEING B-757 71
DOUG DC-10 12
DOUG DC-9 152

SOUTHWEST AIRLINES CO

BOEING B-737 475

CONTINENTAL AIRLINES INC

BOEING B-737 254
BOEING B-757 58
BOEING B-767 26
BOEING B-777 18

Quoting MEACEDAR (Reply 6):
I think that they should start selling the planes they own, and start to lease instead.

United has sold or returned more than 20 744s, which has actually hurt them very baddly in their ability to expand, particularly since the ownership costs were so much lower than those of the 772ERs.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 7):
They are nearly all leased.

Actually, that isn't true, particularly for the widebody fleet.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
unitednrt
Posts: 261
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2006 3:43 am

RE: United Fleet Update

Sat Oct 21, 2006 2:25 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 7):
When did delivery dates get set?

Dates were originally set for 2006 delivery but United pushed them back in 2005.

United had around 560 operational aircraft upon entering into bankruptcy and either lessors took aircraft back and United didn't bother pleading for the aircraft back a new rates or United decided they didn't need them.

United was thinking about the future by keeping options open in terms of its fleet, yet at the time of bankruptcy, United needed to take hold of its mounting losses and decrease capacity. So why pay leases for under-to-not utilized aircraft?

Imagine if United hadn't reduced capacity,its DIP loan providers would've seriously doubted United's plan as well as had a proverbial shitfit.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 7):
They are nearly all leased.

No. As it stands now, the fleet is half owned and half leased, with very nice lease rates for most aircraft.

Quoting MEACEDAR (Reply 9):

Why were they in Cha. 11? If they are not making money, people are not flying. Please enlighten me on the facts that you stated above.

Yields..yields...and how should i say...yields. Airlines had very low revenue premium to cover their massive costs. Around 2001 United was flying 75million passengers a year on mainline frames. It wasn't people not flying UA.

Quoting MEACEDAR (Reply 6):
This is way to much A/C for an airline.

American has over 700 aircraft, and had more to boot during 2001-2002, including Fokkers, B717, B767PW, DC9, etc.

Quoting MEACEDAR (Reply 6):
I think that they should start selling the planes they own, and start to lease instead.

One of the reasons bankruptcy was chosen was to lower leases on most of the aircraft. Leases were not competive at the time. United will not sell more aircraft to only lease them back as it brings them to stage 1 yet again.
"...That's a lovely name. My name's Milton; Milton Ettenheim, but my friends call me Bubbles."
 
unitednrt
Posts: 261
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2006 3:43 am

RE: United Fleet Update

Sat Oct 21, 2006 2:29 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 11):
particularly since the ownership costs were so much lower than those of the 772ERs.

the reason they got rid of those said B747-422 was the fact that lessors weren't willing to budge on the lease rates as they new certain carriers were interested in getting 300-400 seat haul rather quickly, ie Corsair.
"...That's a lovely name. My name's Milton; Milton Ettenheim, but my friends call me Bubbles."
 
N1120A
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RE: United Fleet Update

Sat Oct 21, 2006 2:35 am

Quoting UnitedNRT (Reply 13):
the reason they got rid of those said B747-422 was the fact that lessors weren't willing to budge on the lease rates as they new certain carriers were interested in getting 300-400 seat haul rather quickly, ie Corsair.

Some of them were direct sales as I recall. All the 747s left in their fleet are owned AFAIK.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
LAXintl
Posts: 20183
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: United Fleet Update

Sat Oct 21, 2006 2:36 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 11):
That, and the fact that their 737Classic fleet is among the newest and most advanced flying should combine to mean the 737s are sticking around for quite a while. Further, United has those 735s at a rather low capital cost, giving them a just over 100 seater with a decent CASM, something most of the US majors wish they could have.

UA's 735/733 CASM are higher than their A319/A320 fleet. This has been the achilles heal to the 737 fleet. Check out the DOT stats.

The airline on several occasions has said, they would like to sunset the 737 fleet sooner rather than later, and thus was quite aggresive with lease returns opportunities during its Ch11 filling.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
LAXintl
Posts: 20183
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: United Fleet Update

Sat Oct 21, 2006 2:40 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 14):
All the 747s left in their fleet are owned AFAIK.

Several were leased from Bristol Associates, same party to some the 777s that were returned. Bristol was unwilling to play ball with lease rates to the extent of some of the other companies.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
zvezda
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RE: United Fleet Update

Sat Oct 21, 2006 2:43 am

Quoting UnitedNRT (Reply 12):
No. As it stands now, the fleet is half owned and half leased, with very nice lease rates for most aircraft.

By, units, about half. By value, not so. The aircraft that UA own are predominantly older and less valuable. The newer, more valuable aircraft tend to be leased. Yes, the lease rates are nice.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: United Fleet Update

Sat Oct 21, 2006 2:50 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 17):
The aircraft that UA own are predominantly older and less valuable.

Value is relative. United has stated that their fully owned 744s are actually cheaper by trip cost as well as CASM than their 772ERs based on CASM.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
N1120A
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RE: United Fleet Update

Sat Oct 21, 2006 2:52 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 16):
same party to some the 777s that were returned. Bristol was unwilling to play ball with lease rates to the extent of some of the other companies.

The interesting thing is, United was able to keep most of their 777 fleet intact and was able to rid themselves of some of their unnecessary 772As.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 15):
UA's 735/733 CASM are higher than their A319/A320 fleet. This has been the achilles heal to the 737 fleet. Check out the DOT stats

Naturally the CASM is higher as they are smaller aircraft.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 15):
The airline on several occasions has said, they would like to sunset the 737 fleet sooner rather than later, and thus was quite aggresive with lease returns opportunities during its Ch11 filling.

They did, however, return quite few of them and were able to move the rates down simply by threatening to RTL
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: United Fleet Update

Sat Oct 21, 2006 2:58 am

This has been a rather informative thread. It was particularly interesting to see the fleet comparisons - thanks N1120A.

So when exactly are they "allowed" to place a new aircraft order? I was assuming that after exiting bk they could do whatever they chose in that regard. Are there existing restrictions (beyond the obvious financial requirements) to ordering new aircraft?

Thanks for the interesting thread,

-Dave
-Dave
 
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AA777223
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RE: United Fleet Update

Sat Oct 21, 2006 3:10 am

As for all the leasing talk, if I had to guess, and I am just guessing now, but I would bet that UA has some pretty smart and well paid analysts who have looked over their fleet plan and know exactly what aircraft should be leased, which should be owned and why. I bet they know what they are doing, and probably have a little more information than we are able to access.

Owning the aircraft certainly increases the equity of the company by increasing the assets, because as we all know equipment leases are liabilities on balance sheets. Now as to whether this proves to be beneficial to UA in their current financial situation is up to investors.
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unitednrt
Posts: 261
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RE: United Fleet Update

Sat Oct 21, 2006 3:12 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 14):
All the 747s left in their fleet are owned AFAIK.

you may very well be correct. I recall leased B747 frames being disgarded first as I could not find financial data relating to the sale of B747 equipment from work as its rather limited.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 15):
UA's 735/733 CASM are higher than their A319/A320 fleet.

in terms of CASM yes, but on certain routes its been proven that the B733/735 are more cost effective than the A32X subtypes..such as ORD-MSP/PIT..routes within 500 miles.
"...That's a lovely name. My name's Milton; Milton Ettenheim, but my friends call me Bubbles."
 
roseflyer
Posts: 9606
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:34 am

RE: United Fleet Update

Sat Oct 21, 2006 3:20 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 11):
That, and the fact that their 737Classic fleet is among the newest and most advanced flying should combine to mean the 737s are sticking around for quite a while. Further, United has those 735s at a rather low capital cost, giving them a just over 100 seater with a decent CASM, something most of the US majors wish they could have.

The Embraer 170s and CRJ-700s are effectively replacing 737s on many many routes. The 70 seat Ex Plus regional jets have basically the same offerings as the 737s, but are newer and have subsidiaries operating them. Many routes from ORD to the Midwest are now served with E170s instead of 737s.

The 737s aren't bad, but people often forget that United does have tons of planes entering their fleet under the United Express banner. These jets are flying routes that use to be flown by mainline jets. Yes competitors like Continental has a newer fleet, but you also get many ERJ-145s where United operates more comfortable larger regional jets.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
ourboeing
Posts: 328
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2004 7:52 pm

RE: United Fleet Update

Sat Oct 21, 2006 3:30 am

I think UA has aircraft in its current fleet that a lot of airlines still don't.

My opinion? I think UA is fine with what it has at this point.

OURBOEING
 
MEACEDAR
Topic Author
Posts: 682
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:57 am

RE: United Fleet Update

Sat Oct 21, 2006 3:46 am

Quoting OURBOEING (Reply 24):
I think UA has aircraft in its current fleet that a lot of airlines still don't.

My opinion? I think UA is fine with what it has at this point.

OURBOEING

Like what airlines?  Smile
 
mptpa
Posts: 401
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 4:34 am

RE: United Fleet Update

Sat Oct 21, 2006 3:58 am

Quoting MEACEDAR (Reply 9):
Why were they in Cha. 11? If they are not making money, people are not flying. Please enlighten me on the facts that you stated above.

You can have 100% load factor and still go bankrupt. Why? Because you are not making money, but burning money. If the yields are not there, you will such money and have negative cashflow. Basically, you need to have your costs under control, so given where the fare prices are (which are set and accepted by flying public from competitors), UA has to make the cost lower and revenue higher hence a decent yoeld and profit to afloat.

You can be profitable with 50% yield: it all depends on what your cost basis and the money you are charging are.

Quoting UnitedNRT (Reply 12):
United will not sell more aircraft to only lease them back as it brings them to stage 1 yet again

This will bring their current ratio down and debt ratio up as the assets are removed from the balance sheet; not a good thing when you calculate ratios and effective health of the company as well as ratings.
 
zvezda
Posts: 8891
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: United Fleet Update

Sat Oct 21, 2006 4:49 am

Quoting UnitedNRT (Reply 22):
in terms of CASM yes, but on certain routes its been proven that the B733/735 are more cost effective than the A32X subtypes..such as ORD-MSP/PIT..routes within 500 miles.

On very short routes, there is not much difference in CASM between the B737-300/500 and the A319/A320. On longer routes, the A319/A320 have a significant advantage.
 
unitednrt
Posts: 261
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2006 3:43 am

RE: United Fleet Update

Sat Oct 21, 2006 4:57 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 27):

I have seen first hand that the B737-500/300 is cheaper to run on routes <500miles due to costs which don't affect CASM. Cost per aircraft departure is lower for the B737s, which is why United uses the frames in the manner they do.

CASM wise the B737-300/500 both average in the low 8cent CASM, with the A319 at 6, the A320 at 5.6cents.
"...That's a lovely name. My name's Milton; Milton Ettenheim, but my friends call me Bubbles."
 
zvezda
Posts: 8891
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: United Fleet Update

Sat Oct 21, 2006 5:06 am

Quoting UnitedNRT (Reply 28):
I have seen first hand that the B737-500/300 is cheaper to run on routes <500miles due to costs which don't affect CASM.

What costs are you not counting in CASM?
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: United Fleet Update

Sat Oct 21, 2006 5:21 am

There are more current statistics available for aircraft costs based on airline filings to the DOT but the general them is that none of the older generation 100 seat aircraft are competitive with new generation aircraft from a cost perspective. UA’s 737 classics are only marginally more cost effective than NW’s DC9s.

The reason other airlines like AA and DL got rid of their 100 seaters is because they can’t be operated profitably at mainline costs. If rumors of DL’s order of E190/195s turns out to be true, it will mark the first time in at least 5 years that a US network carrier will be able to operate a 100 seat aircraft cost effectively.

The A319 and 737-700 are cost competitive with larger aircraft but they aren’t true 100 seaters.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: United Fleet Update

Sat Oct 21, 2006 6:06 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 20):
So when exactly are they "allowed" to place a new aircraft order?

Anytime they can come up with a deposit

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 20):
Are there existing restrictions (beyond the obvious financial requirements) to ordering new aircraft?

Not particularly.

Quoting UnitedNRT (Reply 22):
in terms of CASM yes, but on certain routes its been proven that the B733/735 are more cost effective than the A32X subtypes..such as ORD-MSP/PIT..routes within 500 miles.

The 737s are lighter, which decreases their relative CASM on shorter routes vis a vis the A320 Family. For the sake of that discussion, it also makes them cheaper than 737NGs

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 23):
The Embraer 170s and CRJ-700s are effectively replacing 737s on many many routes. The 70 seat Ex Plus regional jets have basically the same offerings as the 737s, but are newer and have subsidiaries operating them. Many routes from ORD to the Midwest are now served with E170s instead of 737s.

Here is the problem. First, those aircraft don't have audio entertainment (a bit of a minor thing). Second, they are NOT operated by subsidiary companies, rather they are operated by independent companies operating under a fee per departure contract with United, which means they are operating under a cost plus profit model, which means United has to actually yield more to run the flights than if they were operating the aircraft on their own. It should be United running those flights, no matter what aircraft they are on. Regionals should have been kept to flights of 50 or less and props.

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 23):
The 737s aren't bad, but people often forget that United does have tons of planes entering their fleet under the United Express banner. These jets are flying routes that use to be flown by mainline jets

Again, they are still NOT mainline and are not operated or owned by any part of United Air Lines or UAL. The massive influx of regional capacity has hurt, not helped carriers.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 29):

What costs are you not counting in CASM?

Ownership is a big one

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 30):
The reason other airlines like AA and DL got rid of their 100 seaters is because they can’t be operated profitably at mainline costs.

AA has said time and time again that they have a massive hole in their fleet that was left when the F100s left. 100 seaters have been and can be operated profitably at mainline costs because they aren't subsidizing the profits of a regional.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
LAXintl
Posts: 20183
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: United Fleet Update

Sat Oct 21, 2006 6:28 am

Quoting UnitedNRT (Reply 22):
but on certain routes its been proven that the B733/735 are more cost effective than the A32X subtypes..such as ORD-MSP/PIT..routes within 500 miles



Quoting Zvezda (Reply 27):
On very short routes, there is not much difference in CASM between the B737-300/500 and the A319/A320



Quoting UnitedNRT (Reply 28):
CASM wise the B737-300/500 both average in the low 8cent CASM, with the A319 at 6, the A320 at 5.6cents.

The 737s have poorer operating economics versus the A319/A320s at UA. Here are the companies per block hour cost numbers for the last 12months ending in Q2.

737-500
Crew:$482
Fuel:$1364
Ownership:$213
Insurance & Taxes:$97
Maintenance:$694
TOTAL:$2850
CASM:8.0

A319
Crew:$485
Fuel:$1311
Ownership:$253
Insurance & Taxes:$101
Maintenance:$562
TOTAL:$2712
CASM:5.7

737-300
Crew:$483
Fuel:$1354
Ownership:$353
Insurance & Taxes:$92
Maintenance:$788
TOTAL:$3070
CASM:7.6

A320
Crew:$495
Fuel:$1459
Ownership:$374
Insurance & Taxes:$102
Maintenance:$605
TOTAL:$3035
CASM:5.3

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 23):
The Embraer 170s and CRJ-700s are effectively replacing 737s on many many routes.

 checkmark  Indeed with more on the way.

UA will try to rid itself of the remaing portion of its 737 fleet at the first opportunity. This has been mentioned several times at employee meetings.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
AADC10
Posts: 1507
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2004 7:40 am

RE: United Fleet Update

Sat Oct 21, 2006 6:31 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 18):

Value is relative. United has stated that their fully owned 744s are actually cheaper by trip cost as well as CASM than their 772ERs based on CASM.

That is only if you include the cost of the lease. That is like saying your paid off SUV has a lower operating cost than your leased Prius that you are still making payments on. 772s are more expensive to begin with and they are leased but they burn less fuel per passenger than a 744. Mainteance on a 772 is probably higher because of the ETOPS maintenance requirements. The 774 is cheaper than the 772 parked on the ground.

Still, compared to CO or DL, UA has a pretty good long haul fleet that is also competitive with AA. The 737s will be slowly sent to retirement and replaced with A319/320s. New flights will mostly be UAX. That should be good enough for the next ten years.
 
LAXintl
Posts: 20183
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: United Fleet Update

Sat Oct 21, 2006 6:39 am

Since you guys have started to dabate the 777 vs 744, here are UA per block hour cost for the types.

747-400
Crew:$1100
Fuel:$5818
Ownership:$1094
Insurance & Taxes:$249
Maintenance:$1478
TOTAL:$9739
CASM:5.5

777-200
Crew:$941
Fuel:$3781
Ownership:$983
Insurance & Taxes:$213
Maintenance:$1619
TOTAL:$7537
CASM:5.9
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: United Fleet Update

Sat Oct 21, 2006 6:51 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 32):
The 737s have poorer operating economics versus the A319/A320s at UA. Here are the companies per block hour cost numbers for the last 12months ending in Q2.

737-500
Crew:$482
Fuel:$1364

That doesn't make a damn bit of sense, given that the 735 should be burning less fuel per block hour than the 733 on weight alone.

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 33):
772s are more expensive to begin with and they are leased but they burn less fuel per passenger than a 744.

Wrong, and their CASM is higher anyway.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 34):
Since you guys have started to dabate the 777 vs 744, here are UA per block hour cost for the types.

747-400
Crew:$1100
Fuel:$5818
Ownership:$1094
Insurance & Taxes:$249
Maintenance:$1478
TOTAL:$9739
CASM:5.5

777-200
Crew:$941
Fuel:$3781
Ownership:$983
Insurance & Taxes:$213
Maintenance:$1619
TOTAL:$7537
CASM:5.9

United crew on the 772 and 744 are on exactly the same pay scale. The reason the 744s have a higher crew rate is because they are operated on more flights that require 3 and 4 crew because of relief pilot requirements, particularly when you consider that there is a subfleet of 772As that run all 2 pilot flights. Further, the 772As bring down the CASM because they run in a 2-class, all domestic configuration as well as burning less fuel than the 772ERs because of their significantly lower weight and thrust. Even more, the far lower ownership costs of the 772A bring dwn the relative cost of ownership of the 772 fleet generally. It would be nice to see the 772A and 772ER separated.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
LAXintl
Posts: 20183
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: United Fleet Update

Sat Oct 21, 2006 7:16 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 35):
United crew on the 772 and 744 are on exactly the same pay scale

Remember DOT crew numbers also include cabin crew. Its not just flight deck.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 35):
That doesn't make a damn bit of sense, given that the 735 should be burning less fuel per block hour than the 733 on weight alone.

Thats what the DOT 12mos numbers reflect.

One thing to keep in mind is the UA 735 operates overall shorter stage lenghts then the 733 and also has slightly lower daily utilization so the per hour block cost for fuel could seem higher due to larger portion of overall flight hours are in the take off/climb portion rather than cheaper cruise portion.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
supa7E7
Posts: 1360
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 2:05 am

RE: United Fleet Update

Sat Oct 21, 2006 7:18 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 35):

That doesn't make a damn bit of sense, given that the 735 should be burning less fuel per block hour than the 733 on weight alone.

If they are used for exactly the same mission, but they aren't.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 35):
Quoting AADC10 (Reply 33):
772s are more expensive to begin with and they are leased but they burn less fuel per passenger than a 744.

Wrong, and their CASM is higher anyway.

349 pax on a UA 744. It does appear 744s burn more fuel per pax at UA. Doubt the 744 is suffering short missions, either.
"Who's to say spaceships aren't fine art?" - Phil Lesh
 
leothedog
Posts: 113
Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2005 2:45 am

RE: United Fleet Update

Sat Oct 21, 2006 7:22 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 10):
They were (and are, to a lesser extent) filling planes with fares so low that they don't cover their costs.

That's known as..."Selling below cost and making it up by volumn".
I've got things to see and people to do.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: United Fleet Update

Sat Oct 21, 2006 7:33 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 36):
Remember DOT crew numbers also include cabin crew. Its not just flight deck.

Yes, I understand that, but the flight deck differences are huge when you consider the relative percentage of 3 and 4 pilot flights on each fleet (I doubt the 772ER even has 4 pilot ones).

Quoting Supa7e7 (Reply 37):
If they are used for exactly the same mission, but they aren't.

The 737s operate almost the same mission

Quoting Supa7e7 (Reply 37):
349 pax on a UA 744. It does appear 744s burn more fuel per pax at UA. Doubt the 744 is suffering short missions, either.

Again, the numbers are skewed because the 772As are factored in, which lowers the fuel burn for the overall 772 fleet significantly.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
LAXintl
Posts: 20183
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: United Fleet Update

Sat Oct 21, 2006 8:10 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 39):
(I doubt the 772ER even has 4 pilot ones).

There are multiple double augmented (4 person) UA 772 flights. Basically anything approching 12hrs+ block time including ORD/IAD-Asia, West Coast-Europe.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
ual757
Posts: 745
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:58 pm

RE: United Fleet Update

Sat Oct 21, 2006 8:18 am

Didn't any of you hear about the big 787 order? HEHEHE  stirthepot  HEHEHE

-UAL757  Wink
 
ual757
Posts: 745
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:58 pm

RE: United Fleet Update

Sat Oct 21, 2006 8:19 am

For those of you with no sense of humor, I was joking with my previous post! Big grin

[Edited 2006-10-21 01:22:03]
 
joeljack
Posts: 491
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2005 12:38 pm

RE: United Fleet Update

Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:02 am

What does the current united express fleet look like? Can anyone tell me how it will compare to the end of this year 2006, and the next couple of years, 2007 and 2008? Is there going to be significant capacity growth within the UX system during the next 2 or 3 years?
 
jfk777
Posts: 5830
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

RE: United Fleet Update

Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:05 am

United needs some 773ER for expansion and should place a 787 order while doing Business with Boeing.
 
zvezda
Posts: 8891
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 8:48 pm

RE: United Fleet Update

Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:17 am

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 44):
United needs some 773ER for expansion and should place a 787 order while doing Business with Boeing.

A B787 order is a lot more likely than a B777-300ER order.
 
ual777
Posts: 1491
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:18 am

RE: United Fleet Update

Sat Oct 21, 2006 10:01 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 7):
They are nearly all leased.

Wrong.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 17):

By, units, about half. By value, not so. The aircraft that UA own are predominantly older and less valuable. The newer, more valuable aircraft tend to be leased. Yes, the lease rates are nice.

Not true.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 45):
B787 order is a lot more likely than a B777-300ER order.

They will probably do both. UA has wanted the 773 for some time.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
ContinentalEWR
Posts: 3619
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 2:50 am

RE: United Fleet Update

Sat Oct 21, 2006 11:16 am

United's 737-300 and 737-500 are not newer classics. They are actually quite old.
 
United767
Posts: 349
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:16 am

RE: United Fleet Update

Sat Oct 21, 2006 11:30 am

I was told from high up at work (world headquarters) that they are not even thinking abut it till after 2010(which has been sugested on this post numerous times).

Also on another note, as for the repainting, they said they will be 35 percent complete by the end of the year and it will take another 2 and a half years past that to complete. So mid 2009 till complete(5 and a half years total for entire fleet)
I wish UA flew mainline to MYR, that way you wouldn't be stuck in a smelly Saturn for 12 hours.
 
UAL777UK
Posts: 2107
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:16 am

RE: United Fleet Update

Sat Oct 21, 2006 5:04 pm

But surely they need to comsider placing deposits on aircraft in the very near future for delivery say 2010 or thereabouts otherwise they will miss the show?

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