9252fly
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SAA Expansion To North America

Sat Oct 21, 2006 12:15 pm

I read today that SAA is looking for two widebody aircraft to open a new route to the USA. There have been rumblings for months about SAA opening new routes to North America. Representatives from SAA have at sometime over the last few months visited SAL to evaluate it as tech stop for their new flights. SAA is also looking for four narrowbody aircraft,which is likely related to the start-up of their new low-cost carrier at the end of the month. Does anyone have information when the 2 or 3 A343E aircraft that were leased to Jet Airways are scheduled to return? Speculation continues on the possibility of CPT-MIA restarting as well as ORD and YYZ,which would likely use SAL as a tech stop,at least north-bound.
 
PanAm747
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RE: SAA Expansion To North America

Sat Oct 21, 2006 12:22 pm

Considering how horrendous connecting times are at IAD for west coast cities, SAA needs to do something to compete with Delta's ATL-JNB service. The IAD flights, while high in O&D passengers, I'm sure, can't fill the entire plane. Some connecting passengers are needed.

ORD would be a great feed for Star Alliance customers. Best of luck to them whatever they do!
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LAXintl
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RE: SAA Expansion To North America

Sat Oct 21, 2006 12:33 pm

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 1):
Considering how horrendous connecting times are at IAD for west coast cities

Flight times have been rescheduled this winter. Flight departs IAD at 5pm along with UA's first Atlantic wave allowing for nationwide connections. Flight returns to IAD at 6am.

The adjustment however does hurt some regional connections ex JNB which were possible prior.

As apparent it can be quite hard to align schedules on intra-hub flying. Often something must be sacrificed.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
PanAm747
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RE: SAA Expansion To North America

Sat Oct 21, 2006 12:36 pm

Quote:
As apparent it can be quite hard to align schedules on intra-hub flying.

Good point!!
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SA7700
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RE: SAA Expansion To North America

Sat Oct 21, 2006 4:12 pm

Quoting 9252fly (Thread starter):
Does anyone have information when the 2 or 3 A343E aircraft that were leased to Jet Airways are scheduled to return?

As far as I know the planes are supposed to come back to SA about March-April 2007. The sub-lease was signed in 2005 for 2 years.


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SA7700

[Edited 2006-10-21 09:15:59]
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ZRH
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RE: SAA Expansion To North America

Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:09 pm

Quoting 9252fly (Thread starter):
Speculation continues on the possibility of CPT-MIA restarting as well as ORD and YYZ,which would likely use SAL as a tech stop,at least north-bound.

I think ORD as being a Star hub is more likely than MIA.
 
airbusfanyyz
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RE: SAA Expansion To North America

Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:34 pm

YYZ, with what equipment? source?

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jfk777
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RE: SAA Expansion To North America

Sat Oct 21, 2006 10:37 pm

Miami dioes have two advantages, its has been served before by SAA to great success. Geographrically speaking it can be flown from CPT nonstop both ways by A343 or A346 or even the 744, again.
 
SA7700
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RE: SAA Expansion To North America

Sun Oct 22, 2006 12:39 am

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 7):
Geographrically speaking it can be flown from CPT nonstop both ways by A343 or A346 or even the 744, again.

Which make me think that SA is looking more intently at ORD. Why would they:

Quoting 9252fly (Thread starter):
Representatives from SAA have at sometime over the last few months visited SAL to evaluate it as tech stop for their new flights.

when a non-stop CPT-MIA route is on the cards?


Rgds

SA7700
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PA110
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RE: SAA Expansion To North America

Sun Oct 22, 2006 1:11 am

There have been numerous rumors floating around SA that they will recommence MIA-CPT service at least 3-4 times per week. The concern is that there will not be sufficient O&D traffic to keep this flight profitable. When SA last served MIA, they were allied with AA for domestic feed. Current partners UA and US do not have nearly the lift to/from MIA to provide enough connecting traffic to support what O&D demand there might be.

There have also been persistant rumors about ORD. In fact, just prior to the move from ATL, there had been considerable speculation that the ATL flight would be shifted to ORD. Many U.S. staff were dissapointed when it was announced that the service would be moved over to IAD instead. Some still hold out hopes for opening up ORD

Personally, I don't think there's enough demand in the slower months to support both ORD and IAD, especially if ORD is routed over SID. It would be far smarter to route over DKR to generate additional traffic.
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boeingfever777
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RE: SAA Expansion To North America

Sun Oct 22, 2006 1:19 am

Quoting 9252fly (Thread starter):
I read today that SAA is looking for two widebody aircraft to open a new route to the USA.

Would SA be intrested in AC's A345's for future expansion to North America?
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airportplan
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RE: SAA Expansion To North America

Sun Oct 22, 2006 1:45 am

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 8):
Which make me think that SA is looking more intently at ORD. Why would they:

Because ORD is one of the largest Star Alliance Hubs on earth and has much, much more feed than IAD.
 
SA7700
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RE: SAA Expansion To North America

Sun Oct 22, 2006 2:48 am

Quoting Airportplan (Reply 11):
Because ORD is one of the largest Star Alliance Hubs on earth and has much, much more feed than IAD.

CEO Khaya Ngqula at one stage talked about possible ORD / MIA service alongside with the current SA services to IAD and JFK. I do realise that ORD has more feed than IAD - my guess is as good as yours why SA chose IAD as a gateway to the States, instead of ORD.


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SA7700
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EddieDude
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RE: SAA Expansion To North America

Sun Oct 22, 2006 2:57 am

9252fly, do you mean SSA as the techstop? Or maybe Ihla do Sal? I think SAL is a bit less well located (and would be an odd stop).
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9252fly
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RE: SAA Expansion To North America

Sun Oct 22, 2006 3:24 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 13):
9252fly, do you mean SSA as the techstop?

Some time ago I looked at the flight route mapping website and discovered CPT-MIA routes over northeastern Brazil. As far as I know,no tech stop is required for that route. When looking at a potential JNB-ORD route,it looks like SAL and DKR would be closer to a direct routing if a tech-stop is required.

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 4):
As far as I know the planes are supposed to come back to SA about March-April 2007. The sub-lease was signed in 2005 for 2 years.

Thanks SA7700 for the information,I knew someone had to know. Was the lease comprised of two or three aircraft? If these aircraft are due to be returned early next year,then it's unlikely SAA will need to source the required aircraft on the open market?
 
SA7700
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RE: SAA Expansion To North America

Sun Oct 22, 2006 4:02 am

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 14):
Was the lease comprised of two or three aircraft? If these aircraft are due to be returned early next year,then it's unlikely SAA will need to source the required aircraft on the open market?

Only a pleasure 9252fly.  Smile It is three aircraft - ZS-SXD, ZS-SXE and ZS-SXF. The need for additional aircraft will most likely depend on the number of new routes SA are planning to start. ORD / MIA and EZE comes to mind...


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SA7700
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jfk777
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RE: SAA Expansion To North America

Sun Oct 22, 2006 8:54 am

PA110,

Marginal O & D in Miami is untrue. When SAA started that route once a week in 1992 it didn't have any feed, except what passenger naturally connected to it in Miami. Then it went twice a week then three until daily, this all with a 744. AA didn't start feeding SAA until 1996. Remember alliances were still in their infancy until the mid 1990's. In 2000 they went to Atlanta with Delta and we know the rest. History shows development of this route as one from low expectation to overwelmingly successful results. Feed from United and Usair is marginal but it should not chabge the fact Miami-CPT works. IF feed is so important then Charlotte should be the next destination fro SAA in the USA.
 
walter747
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RE: SAA Expansion To North America

Sun Oct 22, 2006 10:44 am

why doesnt SAA make the tech stops in Sal, Cape Verde (SID) when they flew from ATL
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jmc1975
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RE: SAA Expansion To North America

Sun Oct 22, 2006 11:11 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 13):
I think SAL is a bit less well located (and would be an odd stop).



Quoting 9252fly (Reply 14):
When looking at a potential JNB-ORD route,it looks like SAL and DKR would be closer to a direct routing if a tech-stop is required.

SAL (San Salvador, El Salvador) would certainly be an odd tech stop location.
.......
 
walter747
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RE: SAA Expansion To North America

Sun Oct 22, 2006 11:16 am

i think they mean Sal, Cape Verde they used to have a tech stop there but discontinued it. I don't know why they stopped it but i would like to see them restart it again. <script LANGUAGE='JavaScript' SRC='http://www.airliners.net/photoLink.inc?id=0225429' TYPE='text/javascript'></script>
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thomasphoto60
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RE: SAA Expansion To North America

Sun Oct 22, 2006 11:50 am

Well considering that SA had a 2-3 history at IAH, there might be a slight chance that IAH could re-considered. That said, most here seem to believe that the flight will be 'Oneworld' driven thus ORD is frequently mentioned and I would probably agree.

While I was not living in Houston at the time, from old timers (ex PA employees who worked the flight), SA's IAH service was doing fairly well and the reason for the closing of the route was political. The city of Houston (as many US cities were doing during the Aparthied era) divesting itself with all things South Africa including air links and the closing of the S.Af consulate there.



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flydreamliner
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RE: SAA Expansion To North America

Sun Oct 22, 2006 12:09 pm

So long as non-stops aren't in the cards (why a non-stop isn't worked for JNB-JFK, I just don't get), ORD seems by far the best choice for SAA. CPT-MIA makes little sense, JNB-IAD makes little sense, likewise, because of the JFK flight. Too bad they don't have any A340-500s to do this all non-stop.
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MAH4546
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RE: SAA Expansion To North America

Sun Oct 22, 2006 2:00 pm

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 21):
CPT-MIA makes little sense,

Miami-South Africa had 220 daily passengers in 2005, and Miami has the largest South African community in North America. It definitley makes sense.
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andz
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RE: SAA Expansion To North America

Sun Oct 22, 2006 2:23 pm

Quoting Walter747 (Reply 17):
why doesnt SAA make the tech stops in Sal, Cape Verde (SID) when they flew from ATL

When I flew to ATL we stopped there. I came back from JFK so that was non-stop.
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SA7700
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RE: SAA Expansion To North America

Sun Oct 22, 2006 4:42 pm

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 21):
So long as non-stops aren't in the cards (why a non-stop isn't worked for JNB-JFK, I just don't get),

The lift of pax and cargo in-and-out of DKR are quite profitable for SA, however the IAD-JNB service will go non-stop in the near future.


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SA7700
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sflaflight
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RE: SAA Expansion To North America

Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:10 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 21):
CPT-MIA makes little sense

what? As MAH said, South Florida has the largest South African Ex pats in the US. Plus, it's the natural first stop to the US.

Lets' not forget that before the flight went to MIA (to get AA feed), it went to FLL. Try that. It was one of the most successful international (save Canada and Bahamas as they are pre-clearance) routes FLL has seem. BTW, if ever you are in South FLorida, you need to check out some of our South African restaurants. The meats and wines are incredible!

I'm ready to see SAA in South Florida again, that's for sure!
 
SA7700
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RE: SAA Expansion To North America

Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:26 am

Quoting Sflaflight (Reply 25):
Lets' not forget that before the flight went to MIA (to get SA)">AA feed), it went to FLL.

That is incorrect. SA started CPT-MIA services in 1992, with the American Airlines relationship developing later that year. In 1999 SA "moved shop" to ATL and started their relationship with Delta. SA only arrived in FLL in 2000.


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SA7700
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sflaflight
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RE: SAA Expansion To North America

Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:12 am

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 26):

That is incorrect. SA started CPT-MIA services in 1992, with the American Airlines relationship developing later that year. In 1999 SA "moved shop" to ATL and started their relationship with Delta. SA only arrived in FLL in 2000.

That is correct! It was MIA first then moved it to FLL because it started code sharing with DL and DL had more feed/rotes to FLL (DL Express I think at the time) Could it have been a triangle route to at some point? Only 2000? It seems much longer than that! I can't believe I got it all confused! What year was FLL dropped from FLL, 2 years later maybe?
 
MAH4546
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RE: SAA Expansion To North America

Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:15 am

Quoting Sflaflight (Reply 27):
Could it have been a triangle route to at some point?

Always a triangle route. CPT-FLL-ATL-CPT.

Quoting Sflaflight (Reply 27):
What year was FLL dropped from FLL, 2 years later maybe?

After 9/11, because new security rules meant that all passengers on SAA's flight had to get off in FLL, clear immigration, and then get back on. This was a logistical nightmare. SAA tried, twice, to get the FAA to exempt them, but was denied.
a.
 
kiramakora
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RE: SAA Expansion To North America

Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:18 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 2):
The adjustment however does hurt some regional connections ex JNB which were possible prior.

Passengers in other cities in southern Africa do not have competing airlines for their business. Many cities have only got JNB as their true hub link. Thus, I think they have no option than take SA. However, this is not true for many cities in North America. Rescheduling is very sensible.
 
2travel2know
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RE: SAA Expansion To North America

Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:00 am

Quoting PA110 (Reply 9):
I don't think there's enough demand in the slower months to support both ORD and IAD, especially if ORD is routed over SID. It would be far smarter to route over DKR to generate additional traffic.

Instead of a DKR stop, I wonder if Brazil would let SA 5th rights traffic between SSA/REC/FOR and U.S.A. destinations (ORD/IAD/IAH/LAX ?); SID could work well if SA is to fly to BOS (or PVD !) and there's some leisure traffic from South Africa to Sal Island (Cape Verde Islands in general).
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MAH4546
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RE: SAA Expansion To North America

Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:11 am

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 30):
Instead of a DKR stop, I wonder if Brazil would let SA 5th rights traffic between SSA/REC/FOR and U.S.A. destinations (ORD/IAD/IAH/LAX ?);

Dakar is a far better stop than anywhere in Brazil, and the idea of IAD-REC, LAX-FOR, or ORD-SSA as actually being substainable is ridiculous.

Dakar is one of the biggest US-Africa markets. Strong traffic, and great yields.
a.
 
flydreamliner
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RE: SAA Expansion To North America

Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:19 am

Quoting Sflaflight (Reply 25):
what? As MAH said, South Florida has the largest South African Ex pats in the US. Plus, it's the natural first stop to the US.

Lets' not forget that before the flight went to MIA (to get AA feed), it went to FLL. Try that. It was one of the most successful international (save Canada and Bahamas as they are pre-clearance) routes FLL has seem. BTW, if ever you are in South FLorida, you need to check out some of our South African restaurants. The meats and wines are incredible!

I'm ready to see SAA in South Florida again, that's for sure!

I'm acutely aware of the South African population in south florida.... part of my family lived in South Africa for some number of years before emigrating back to the US - in South Florida. The issue is, as a star alliance member, they really aren't doing much in the way of serving north american star hubs. Since they'll be hooked into US and UA in the United States, MIA being an AA hub isn't really much use at all to them, so besides O and D, they really aren't going to get much of anything from MIA, and 200 pax daily through there, pre joining star alliance just isn't in my mind, a good reason to send a 350 passenger jet there every day. IAD, ORD, and JFK as regular flights makes good sense - to me. Perhaps MIA service a few times a week, but I just don't see them getting much of any connecting traffic through MIA if they are serving IAD, ORD, and JFK.
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MAH4546
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RE: SAA Expansion To North America

Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:57 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 32):
Perhaps MIA service a few times a week, but I just don't see them getting much of any connecting traffic through MIA if they are serving IAD, ORD, and JFK.

You are ignoring many key details.

Firstly, they would not fly to Miami daily. It would be 3x - maybe 4x - a week with an A340. That is pretty healthy capacity for the O&D demand that the Miami market has.

Secondly, despite being part of an alliance, given the limited number of US-Africa service, South African Airways is still very heavy on interline customers from the US. Even though the relationship with AA ended, you can realisticly expect AA to possibly contribute 25-30 interlining passengers per flight. Yes, the Star Alliance feed would be very minimal, but with a strong local market, the ability to make the flight non-stop, and the limited amount of US-Africa service in general, it will work.

That being said, it is debateable if it will work better than O'Hare. Both Miami and O'Hare present their own strengths and weaknesses that make each a strong choice.
a.
 
walter747
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RE: SAA Expansion To North America

Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:55 am

i think they should do stopovers in both Darkar and Sal because Sal is a tourist destination and could be much leisre travel form the us to SID. Some family friends are from Cape Verde and we explored on how to get there and its difficult and expensive and i do hope they do stopover in sal again. I'm hopping they do go to PVD since im from aorund there!!!!
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LAXdude1023
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RE: SAA Expansion To North America

Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:31 pm

I think LAX might be feasible for SAA. Im not exactly sure what routeing would be good for them, but I think LAX-GRU-JNB might be lucrative. Although I concede that ORD is a more likely destination because of Star Alliance Connections. MIA could work, but only if they stregthend ties with AA or had the flight continuing to ORD on a nonstop from CPT.
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zvezda
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RE: SAA Expansion To North America

Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:39 pm

ORD is very far north and rather far west for connecting to JNB. CLT might be a better option despite less O+D traffic. Star Alliance doesn't really have a north american hub that is well-located for SAA.

I don't think we'll see a lot of JNB-USA nonstops until SA get the B787.
 
flydreamliner
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RE: SAA Expansion To North America

Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:52 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 36):
ORD is very far north and rather far west for connecting to JNB. CLT might be a better option despite less O+D traffic. Star Alliance doesn't really have a north american hub that is well-located for SAA.

ORD is somewhat far, but not any real stretch for a flight coming out of Sal or Dakar. ORD has the most solid all around north american hub, and is the busiest Star Alliance airport in the US.

Bear in mind also that JFK is closer to JNB than MIA or ATL are. CLT is a fairly small hub compared to ORD.... plus then you would have CLT, IAD, and JFK. I don't know, in terms of connections, ORD puts you one flight away from any population center worth noting in the US, MIA and CLT, JFK and IAD just don't do that.
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WA707atMSP
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RE: SAA Expansion To North America

Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:22 pm

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 30):
Instead of a DKR stop, I wonder if Brazil would let SA 5th rights traffic between SSA/REC/FOR and U.S.A. destinations (ORD/IAD/IAH/LAX ?);

SAA already has fifth freedom rights between Brasil and the USA. In the late '60s, SAA flew US-South Africa via GIG. The route was shifted to SSA in the mid '70s when the 747SPs were delivered.
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swissgabe
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RE: SAA Expansion To North America

Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:40 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 36):
I don't think we'll see a lot of JNB-USA nonstops until SA get the B787.

787 for SA? Did I miss something?
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2travel2know
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RE: SAA Expansion To North America

Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:28 pm

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 38):
SAA already has fifth freedom rights between Brasil and the USA. In the late '60s, SAA flew US-South Africa via GIG. The route was shifted to SSA in the mid '70s when the 747SPs were delivered.

If SA does have 5th rights for Brazil-U.S.A. traffic and currently JNB-GRU is on of SA most profitable routes, I doubt SA would add a U.S. (or any other Southamerican) tag-on to GRU; however a CPT-GIG-LAX and a JNB-SSA-ORD (!) are something SA could study, anyhow I would have my doubts for the SSA-ORD traffic.
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