744
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I Am Seeing Air Canada CEO Next Week Help!

Sat Oct 21, 2006 2:59 pm

I am so excited to have an opportunity to see Air Canada CEO Ms. Chantal Baril next week  Smile?Could anyone please give me any possible suggestions that I can ask her personally? Also, if you have any questions realted to Air Canada, I will be more than happy to ask her. Any comments/suggestions are welcome?  Cool . I will try my best to reply all of your questions.
Thank you,
744

[Edited 2006-10-21 08:00:44]
 
asianguy767
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RE: I Am Seeing Air Canada CEO Next Week Help!

Sat Oct 21, 2006 4:30 pm

 
crogalski
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RE: I Am Seeing Air Canada CEO Next Week Help!

Sat Oct 21, 2006 4:40 pm

A319 A320 A321 A330 B717 B727 B737 B747 B757 B767 CRJ200 CRJ700 CRJ900 DC9 E145 E190 MD88 Q400 | AA AB B6 CO DL EI FL NK
 
Thorben
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RE: I Am Seeing Air Canada CEO Next Week Help!

Sat Oct 21, 2006 6:42 pm

Quoting 744 (Thread starter):
Could anyone please give me any possible suggestions that I can ask her personally?

Why does AC have such a bad fleet policy?
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
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NZ107
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RE: I Am Seeing Air Canada CEO Next Week Help!

Sat Oct 21, 2006 6:45 pm

Are they planning to fly to AKL with their 772LRs or 787s or will Air NZ be flying this route, with some sort of agreement?
It's all about the destination AND the journey.
 
Cruiser
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RE: I Am Seeing Air Canada CEO Next Week Help!

Sat Oct 21, 2006 8:54 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 3):
Why does AC have such a bad fleet policy?

Thorben, care to explain? I am trying to fathom what you mean by that.
Leahy on Per Seat Costs: "Have you seen the B-2 fly-by at almost US$1bn a copy? It has only 2 seats!"
 
FLYACYYZ
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RE: I Am Seeing Air Canada CEO Next Week Help!

Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:49 pm

Ms. Baril is President & CEO of ACGHS - Air Canada Ground Handling Services, and on a side note, is a terrific lady.

Find it a bit curious though that news of your meeting her would be posted on this forum

 Confused  Confused
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FLYACYYZ
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RE: I Am Seeing Air Canada CEO Next Week Help!

Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:52 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 3):
Why does AC have such a bad fleet policy?

.

Don't think that she would concede that AC has such a a bad fleet policy. 60 Embraers are arriving, 777's are replacing 340's, and all other aircraft in the fleet are being refurbished with state of the art amenities. Explain???
Above and Beyond
 
jacobin777
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RE: I Am Seeing Air Canada CEO Next Week Help!

Sat Oct 21, 2006 10:01 pm

Quoting Cruiser (Reply 5):
Thorben, care to explain? I am trying to fathom what you mean by that.

He thinks that dumping of their Airbus widebodies for Boeing widebodies and choosing the 787 over the 350 was a very poor choice....go figure.. sarcastic 
"Up the Irons!"
 
Thorben
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RE: I Am Seeing Air Canada CEO Next Week Help!

Sat Oct 21, 2006 10:29 pm

Quoting Cruiser (Reply 5):
Thorben, care to explain? I am trying to fathom what you mean by that.



Quoting FLYACYYZ (Reply 7):
Don't think that she would concede that AC has such a a bad fleet policy. 60 Embraers are arriving, 777's are replacing 340's, and all other aircraft in the fleet are being refurbished with state of the art amenities. Explain???



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 8):
He thinks that dumping of their Airbus widebodies for Boeing widebodies and choosing the 787 over the 350 was a very poor choice....go figure.. sarcastic

Honestly, how smart is that? A340 and 777 are planes of the same generation. With all the A320/30/40 they have, getting some more A345 and A346 would have been the much smarter option, no matter what Boeing says. Now they are changing horses in the middle of the race. Their airbus WBs are still good planes, they could use them until A350s arrive. No need to buy 777NGs, which will be completely obsolete by 2015. With all their airbus pilots and mechanics, it is hard to understand what they want with 787s. That's what I call bad fleet policy, ask her about it.
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Cruiser
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RE: I Am Seeing Air Canada CEO Next Week Help!

Sat Oct 21, 2006 11:01 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 9):
Honestly, how smart is that? A340 and 777 are planes of the same generation. With all the A320/30/40 they have, getting some more A345 and A346 would have been the much smarter option, no matter what Boeing says. Now they are changing horses in the middle of the race. Their airbus WBs are still good planes, they could use them until A350s arrive. No need to buy 777NGs, which will be completely obsolete by 2015. With all their airbus pilots and mechanics, it is hard to understand what they want with 787s. That's what I call bad fleet policy, ask her about it.

How smart is it to renew the leases on older, fuel guzzling planes? Also, why wait until 2015 when you can have 787's in 2010 and even then, the 787 is likely to be more fuel efficient than the A350. You forget that the Airbus widebodies only make up on third of the WB fleet. The rest are 767's. I cannot wait to see the 'completely obselete 777NG's' which will serve them for almost 8 years before anything comes close in terms of economics.

Thorben, you also forget that AC ordered about 11 772LR's. This will allow them to fly to destinations much further and more profitably than any Airbus is able to offer. You seem to make it sound so cut and dry - but it is a very complex puzzle and it certainly makes sense that AC did what they did and I would not be surprised to see a follow-on order for another 35 787's and another 10-15 777's. It all comes down to money, and let's face it, the Boeing solution was cheaper even after factoring in all of those factors at the time (a year or so ago!). The A350XWB is still slipping to the right, so it certainly makes even more sense now that AC went the Boeing route.

James

[Edited 2006-10-21 16:07:24]
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MSYYZ
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RE: I Am Seeing Air Canada CEO Next Week Help!

Sat Oct 21, 2006 11:09 pm

I am not sure if she can answer this question as she is CEO of ground handling services but i would like to know if they are planning any expansion into Dubai and Cairo .
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sebring
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RE: I Am Seeing Air Canada CEO Next Week Help!

Sat Oct 21, 2006 11:37 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 9):


Honestly, how smart is that? A340 and 777 are planes of the same generation. With all the A320/30/40 they have, getting some more A345 and A346 would have been the much smarter option, no matter what Boeing says. Now they are changing horses in the middle of the race. Their airbus WBs are still good planes, they could use them until A350s arrive. No need to buy 777NGs, which will be completely obsolete by 2015. With all their airbus pilots and mechanics, it is hard to understand what they want with 787s. That's what I call bad fleet policy, ask her about it.

Air Canada wants to transition to an all-Boeing widebody fleet by the middle of the next decade for scheduling and maintenance commonality, crew training and other reasons. Considering it has 45 Boeing 767s some of which are getting a little long in the tooth, and considering Airbus does not have an adequate 767 replacement, the A350 probably being too large for most Air Canada missions, the game was probably over right there. If not for Airbus being consumed - some would say literally - by the A380 project, perhaps they would have a 767 replacement candidate the way they introduced the 320 to take away part of the 737 market.

AC also found the range of the A340-300 to be slightly less than required to make certain key routes work profitably, and that the 777-300ER would do a better job of those situations with a significantly lower seat-mile cost. The alternative was the A340-600HGW, and I am fairly certain AC gave this plane a hard look, and generally liked it especially on price, but Airbus couldn't make the total package work. A key part of Air Canada's rationale was to do a package deal to begin replacing some 767s, which is where the 787s come in. In anticipated that if it made a buy of both 200-seater and 300-seater aircraft, rather than purchasing them separately at different times, it could lock in better pricing and better delivery positions.

In the end, AC's decision is now to take 11 777-300ERs and six 777-200LR - there is another thread here that it explains this very recent change. The 787 and A350 do not challenge the 777-300ER like they do the 777-200LR. AC has probably decided, based on the decision to take 11 777-300ERs, that they will have more versatility in the fleet and a better resale value. I believe AC, upon reflection, found fewer situations out there to support a 300-seat ULH aircraft and will use the 787-8 to develop new long-thin markets. It also found it could likely fill a 773 more often. Having spoken to one of the airline's top honchos a while ago, I learned that the airline feels the lack of a 350-seater for several routes. The A340s carry just under 280 passengers. The original appeal of the 772 was the development of long-thin routes where people would pay a premium for a nonstop rather than travel on a one-stop or connecting service. In reality, such premiums are hard to come by. But AC has proven the past couple of summers that when serving several markets where it has multiple daily flights, it can consolidate a pair of 763s a day into a single 773, sell a bit less low-yield traffic and reap significant cost savings.
 
jacobin777
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RE: I Am Seeing Air Canada CEO Next Week Help!

Sun Oct 22, 2006 12:02 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 9):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 8):
He thinks that dumping of their Airbus widebodies for Boeing widebodies and choosing the 787 over the 350 was a very poor choice....go figure..  sarcastic 

Honestly, how smart is that? A340 and 777 are planes of the same generation. With all the A320/30/40 they have, getting some more A345 and A346 would have been the much smarter option, no matter what Boeing says. Now they are changing horses in the middle of the race. Their airbus WBs are still good planes, they could use them until A350s arrive. No need to buy 777NGs, which will be completely obsolete by 2015. With all their airbus pilots and mechanics, it is hard to understand what they want with 787s. That's what I call bad fleet policy, ask her about it.

As I said, you are upset that they are going for Boeing widebodies over Airbus....its really as simple as that... Wink

Quoting Cruiser (Reply 10):

How smart is it to renew the leases on older, fuel guzzling planes? Also, why wait until 2015 when you can have 787's in 2010 and even then, the 787 is likely to be more fuel efficient than the A350. You forget that the Airbus widebodies only make up on third of the WB fleet. The rest are 767's. I cannot wait to see the 'completely obselete 777NG's' which will serve them for almost 8 years before anything comes close in terms of economics.

 checkmark 
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Cruiser
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RE: I Am Seeing Air Canada CEO Next Week Help!

Sun Oct 22, 2006 1:44 am

Quoting Sebring (Reply 12):
11 777-300ERs and six 777-200LR

Sebring, I think you have that reversed - either that or Boeing has not updated its Orders Page for the month and you know something that the rest of us don't! I know they recently changed one more 772LR to a 773ER.

James
Leahy on Per Seat Costs: "Have you seen the B-2 fly-by at almost US$1bn a copy? It has only 2 seats!"
 
jamincan
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RE: I Am Seeing Air Canada CEO Next Week Help!

Sun Oct 22, 2006 1:49 am

Quoting Sebring (Reply 12):
In the end, AC's decision is now to take 11 777-300ERs and six 777-200LR - there is another thread here that it explains this very recent change. The 787 and A350 do not challenge the 777-300ER like they do the 777-200LR. AC has probably decided, based on the decision to take 11 777-300ERs, that they will have more versatility in the fleet and a better resale value. I believe AC, upon reflection, found fewer situations out there to support a 300-seat ULH aircraft and will use the 787-8 to develop new long-thin markets. It also found it could likely fill a 773 more often. Having spoken to one of the airline's top honchos a while ago, I learned that the airline feels the lack of a 350-seater for several routes. The A340s carry just under 280 passengers. The original appeal of the 772 was the development of long-thin routes where people would pay a premium for a nonstop rather than travel on a one-stop or connecting service. In reality, such premiums are hard to come by. But AC has proven the past couple of summers that when serving several markets where it has multiple daily flights, it can consolidate a pair of 763s a day into a single 773, sell a bit less low-yield traffic and reap significant cost savings.

That's an interesting development. As I recall, there was some debate about the capacity of the 773 having too much capacity for AC except for a few routes. Do you have any idea what routes they are feeling the capacity pinch on?
 
CanadianNorth
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RE: I Am Seeing Air Canada CEO Next Week Help!

Sun Oct 22, 2006 1:59 am

I have one, not sure if it applies but it is about luggage so I'll post it anyway.

It's about using the CRJ to YXY. The route is YVR-YXY, and the flight is just over 2 hours in length. Currently Air Canada serves the route via Jazz, using CRJs twice a day. Now heres the problem: CRJs have a small baggage capacity, which is fine for shorter routes and for routes with lots of business traffic. But... for years and years Yukoners have been known to have more than the average ammount of baggage. This is because, like anywhere in the north, Alot of our shopping is done down south and also we like to bring gifts for family down south, and need big bags to fit these things. Also we get alot of people coming up here for camping and hunting, which requires a fair ammount of gear.

From what I've been told, Air Canada Jazz has been leaving bags behind every other day, and has been ever since they started using CRJs up here. This of course after they stopped using A319s and before that 737-200s, neither of which ever had any issues with luggage on the route. People here whine about it every day, and have been told several times over the last year or two that this is due to increased security and whatnot, and not told how its actually because the cargo hold of their airplane is too damn small to fit everyones luggage.

Just one more reason to forget about Air Canada and its regional partner Jazz, and "fly Air North" instead.



Thanks
CanadianNorth
Way to go, nice and slow, never late, 748!
 
ebbuk
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RE: I Am Seeing Air Canada CEO Next Week Help!

Sun Oct 22, 2006 4:30 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 3):
Why does AC have such a bad fleet policy?

I think he has a valid point. AC is beholden to one manufacturer, they're now sitting ducks for B to make very uncompetitive deals with them.

The most successful airllines use a mixed fleet on their medium and/or longhaul routes. It seems AC don't want to be part of the gang.

I think it is a reasonable question to ask 744.

[Edited 2006-10-21 21:55:14]
 
Cruiser
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RE: I Am Seeing Air Canada CEO Next Week Help!

Sun Oct 22, 2006 4:50 am

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 17):
I think he has a valid point. AC is beholden to one manufacturer, they're now sitting ducks for B to make very uncompetitive deals with them.

The most successful medium to longhaul world airlines operate a mixed fleet. It seems AC don't want to be part of the gang.

I think it is a reasonable question to ask 744.

I see, I must have missed the class where a 100 strong fleet of Airbus Narrowbodies and a potential 60 strong fleet of Boeing Widebodies means that AC is now strictly a Boeing Airline.

I would actually go out on a limb and say that AC will have one of the most competitive and ideally suited fleets (in the world) for the type of airline they are.

James
Leahy on Per Seat Costs: "Have you seen the B-2 fly-by at almost US$1bn a copy? It has only 2 seats!"
 
sebring
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RE: I Am Seeing Air Canada CEO Next Week Help!

Sun Oct 22, 2006 4:56 am

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 17):
I think he has a valid point. AC is beholden to one manufacturer, they're now sitting ducks for B to make very uncompetitive deals with them.

Airbus was actually more beholding to Airbus before it signed the Boeing deal, yet I am sure Airbus negotiated really, really hard to keep its business. In fact I am sure of that. But it didn't have the right products. At some point in the future, however, it will have the right products, and if AC is looking for new narrowbodies, I am sure it will give Airbus a great shot at keeping the narrowbody fleet. If there is one thing for certain, it's that Airbus negotiates hard at the best of times, and these are not the best of times for Airbus.
 
ebbuk
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RE: I Am Seeing Air Canada CEO Next Week Help!

Sun Oct 22, 2006 4:56 am

Quoting Cruiser (Reply 18):
I see, I must have missed the class where a 100 strong fleet of Airbus Narrowbodies and a potential 60 strong fleet of Boeing Widebodies means that AC is now strictly a Boeing Airline.

corrected my original post. My apologies for not being clear the first time around.
 
sebring
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RE: I Am Seeing Air Canada CEO Next Week Help!

Sun Oct 22, 2006 5:02 am

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 17):

The most successful airllines use a mixed fleet on their medium and/or longhaul routes. It seems AC don't want to be part of the gang.

If airlines are beholding to Boeing, it's because Airbus has no true competitor for the 787. The A350 might appeal to the market for 250 seats and up, but Air Canada and a number of other airlines wanted a true 767-300 replacement. Blame Airbus for any market imbalance.
 
ebbuk
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RE: I Am Seeing Air Canada CEO Next Week Help!

Sun Oct 22, 2006 5:31 am

Quoting Sebring (Reply 21):
but Air Canada and a number of other airlines wanted a true 767-300 replacement. Blame Airbus for any market imbalance.

I would love it if AC blamed Airbus for its failure to be a successful airline.
 
LHR777
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RE: I Am Seeing Air Canada CEO Next Week Help!

Sun Oct 22, 2006 6:27 am

Quoting FLYACYYZ (Reply 6):
Find it a bit curious though that news of your meeting her would be posted on this forum

I agree. An odd decision, IMHO. You're going to get loads of questions that Ms Baril may not be able to answer. She's the CEO of Air Canada Ground Handling Services, not the CEO of Air Canada. Is she going to be able to answer questions about fleet policy and route structure, in her present capacity? Maybe she will, maybe she wont. Who knows?
 
cnz3
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RE: I Am Seeing Air Canada CEO Next Week Help!

Sun Oct 22, 2006 6:31 am

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 22):

WTF? How do you come up with AC not being a successful airline? They've been posting quarterly profits consistently for a couple years now. I'm pretty sure that counts as successful in the North American marketplace. Sure its not like they're EK or anything but they serve their markets effectively.

Also, refresh my memory but doesn't BA have an all-Boeing widebody fleet? I take it BA is an unsuccessful carrier as well.

Back on topic, 744, you can ask Ms. Baril about what ACGHS did with all the eels they dropped on the apron here at YYZ last week. biggrin 

Steve
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motopolitico
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RE: I Am Seeing Air Canada CEO Next Week Help!

Sun Oct 22, 2006 7:41 am

If I were the CEO of AC, I'd be very slow to do a major widebody deal with Airbus after the kickback scandal. Mulroney may have escaped the blame, but there is much about that dirty, dirty deal that we still don't know. It's still going to be a while before any headline including "Air Canada" and "Airbus" won't incite snorts of derision from BC to Newfoundland. For PR purposes alone, I wouldn't order airbus for a long time, just to be above suspicion in the Canadian public eye. I'd argue that this does make them partially beholden, in a way, to Boeing.
Garbage stinks; trash don't!
 
beechnut
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RE: I Am Seeing Air Canada CEO Next Week Help!

Sun Oct 22, 2006 7:50 am

Quoting Motopolitico (Reply 26):
If I were the CEO of AC, I'd be very slow to do a major widebody deal with Airbus after the kickback scandal. Mulroney may have escaped the blame, but there is much about that dirty, dirty deal that we still don't know. It's still going to be a while before any headline including "Air Canada" and "Airbus" won't incite snorts of derision from BC to Newfoundland. For PR purposes alone, I wouldn't order airbus for a long time, just to be above suspicion in the Canadian public eye. I'd argue that this does make them partially beholden, in a way, to Boeing.

As a Canadian I think this is nonsense. Regardless of what happened at the political level, the A320 was hands-down the best aircraft for AC at the time, keeping in mind that it had to be able to do YUL-YVR with a full payload in winter (against stronger headwinds). The competition at the time the order was placed, was the 737-300/400/500 and MD88/MD90.

That any of these could compete with the A320 on AC's mission profile is laughable. They all had either range/speed/payload restrictions that didn't fit the mission profile. On top of that the requirement was for strong cargo capacity which again the A320 won hands-down.

Now the 737NG is a much more able competitor to the A320 as sales figures will confirm. But it was not available in the late '80s when AC made it's narrowbody selection to replace the 727. The scandal simply isn't on Canadian's (read: the media's) radar screens anymore, being FAR overshadowed by the Liberal's sponsorship scandal that leaked taxpayer money like a sieve.

Regardless of whether there were kickbacks or not in the deal, AC did at least end up with solid aircraft. On the other hand, the sponsorship scandal simply hemorrhaged cash to benefit a few party cronies. But that too is fading into memory as other issues grab the public's attention. Most Canadians, in any case, don't even have a clue what they're flying on.

Beech.
 
kmh1956
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RE: I Am Seeing Air Canada CEO Next Week Help!

Sun Oct 22, 2006 7:52 am

Quoting 744 (Thread starter):
any possible suggestions that I can ask her personally?

Boxers or briefs??


(Sorry....just saw the pic of the actual CEO and couldn't help myself!)

[Edited 2006-10-22 00:53:21]
'Somebody tell me why I'm on my own if there's a soulmate for everyone' :Natasha Bedingfield
 
ebbuk
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RE: I Am Seeing Air Canada CEO Next Week Help!

Sun Oct 22, 2006 7:53 am

Quoting CNZ3 (Reply 24):
Also, refresh my memory but doesn't BA have an all-Boeing widebody fleet? I take it BA is an unsuccessful carrier as well.

For a long time, BA has dropped out of the premier league of successful airlines.

BA has struggled getting its fleet to suit its route network, it's Boeings are all too often either too big or too small for some of its routes. It's let this slip because of the large chunk of cash it makes comes from its transatlantic routes. for the longest time it shored up its loss making domestic and european network with those profits, that's until competition from LCCs forced it into action. How long can it ignore this fatal business flaw on its medium and longhaul fleet? A mixed fleet would make BA even more profitable.

Quoting CNZ3 (Reply 24):
Back on topic, 744,

yes please
 
jamincan
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RE: I Am Seeing Air Canada CEO Next Week Help!

Sun Oct 22, 2006 8:14 am

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 29):
A mixed fleet would make BA even more profitable.

If you could actually provide a logical explanation for why a mixed fleet of widebody aircraft is particularly important for the success of an airline, I'd like to hear it. As far as I can tell, there isn't one.

Just because a few large successful airlines have mixed fleets does not mean that success is tied to having a mixed fleet. More likely a mixed fleet is possible because of their success since their size allows them to economically operate more fleets than AC could.
 
ebbuk
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RE: I Am Seeing Air Canada CEO Next Week Help!

Sun Oct 22, 2006 8:23 am

Quoting Jamincan (Reply 30):
If you could actually provide a logical explanation for why a mixed fleet of widebody aircraft is particularly important for the success of an airline, I'd like to hear it. As far as I can tell, there isn't one.

Just because a few large successful airlines have mixed fleets does not mean that success is tied to having a mixed fleet.

I want to stay on topic but will quickly address this.

ALL the large successful airlines have mixed fleets and not the "a few" as you see it. The logical explanation lies in this truth.
 
jacobin777
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RE: I Am Seeing Air Canada CEO Next Week Help!

Sun Oct 22, 2006 8:35 am

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 31):
ALL the large successful airlines have mixed fleets and not the "a few" as you see it. The logical explanation lies in this truth.

BA IS a large successful airline..... Wink

Besides the A345 for a couple of its routes (LAX/EWR), SQ has basically an all-Boeing widebody fleet (of course that will change with the A380, but its not in service yet)...
"Up the Irons!"
 
NW727251ADV
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RE: I Am Seeing Air Canada CEO Next Week Help!

Sun Oct 22, 2006 8:38 am

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 17):
The most successful airllines use a mixed fleet on their medium and/or longhaul routes. It seems AC don't want to be part of the gang.

I think it is a reasonable question to ask 744.



Quoting EbbUK (Reply 31):
ALL the large successful airlines have mixed fleets and not the "a few" as you see it. The logical explanation lies in this truth

You make absolutely no type of logical sense whatsoever. Most major carriers who have mixed fleets--which tend to be European and Asian carriers--have MUCH different route structures than North American carriers. Asian carriers, more specifically, tend to have very large regional networks that require 767-sized aircrafts. The only aircraft suitable for these missions are 767s, A330s, and 777-200 (non-ER) aircraft. Unfortunately, up until the advent of the 787, Boeing has not been able to effectively compete in this market with is 767. So, for most airlines the only other alternative is a mixed fleet with A330 aircraft and some even use A340s but these generally have too much range. Large capacity, long range Boeings are used for a lot of Asian carriers international networks. Air Canada doesn't have have extensive, high capacity regional networks. So for them, a mixed fleet of Boeing AND Airbus widebodies aren't necessary. The 767 was found "good enough" and AC went with it. If you are going to spout a bunch of baseless claptrap, at least provide some evidence other than "most successful airlines have mixed fleets", to support your ridiculous argument. I digress.
NWA   N O R T H W E S T A I R L I N E S
 
777ER
Crew
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RE: I Am Seeing Air Canada CEO Next Week Help!

Sun Oct 22, 2006 8:40 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 9):
Honestly, how smart is that? A340 and 777 are planes of the same generation. With all the A320/30/40 they have, getting some more A345 and A346 would have been the much smarter option, no matter what Boeing says. Now they are changing horses in the middle of the race. Their airbus WBs are still good planes, they could use them until A350s arrive. No need to buy 777NGs, which will be completely obsolete by 2015. With all their airbus pilots and mechanics, it is hard to understand what they want with 787s. That's what I call bad fleet policy, ask her about it.

A340s are the worst built airplanes in terms of gas usuage. Its no wonder the B777 is outselling the A340 by 1 to 3. Airbus are now having to offer free fuel and discounted A340s. Choosing the B777s and B787s was the best decision AC has ever made for their long haul routes. The B777s have the signature interior, and is the only aircraft to ever win an award for its interior and passenger comfort. The B787 will also have theis award winning interior. Maybe thats one of the reasons why passengers prefer flying the B777. Its no brain teaser that the B777 was an excellent choice
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ebbuk
Posts: 844
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 6:47 am

RE: I Am Seeing Air Canada CEO Next Week Help!

Sun Oct 22, 2006 10:07 am

Quoting Nw727251adv (Reply 33):
The 767 was found "good enough" and AC went with it. If you are going to spout a bunch of baseless claptrap, at least provide some evidence other than "most successful airlines have mixed fleets", to support your ridiculous argument. I digress.

Be careful before you say I spout claptrap. You may disagree but it isn't claptrap.

Quoting Nw727251adv (Reply 33):
Air Canada doesn't have have extensive, high capacity regional networks. So for them, a mixed fleet of Boeing AND Airbus widebodies aren't necessary.

so why they've ordered the 773ER and 772LR in such large numbers? do you want to tell them that they've made the dumbest order in the history of aviation?

Anyway we do know that the 330s will be the last out of it's fleet when their B planes arrive. we all know why, it's a great plane for AC
 
boeingfever777
Posts: 1990
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:35 am

RE: I Am Seeing Air Canada CEO Next Week Help!

Sun Oct 22, 2006 10:38 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 8):

He thinks that dumping of their Airbus widebodies for Boeing widebodies and choosing the 787 over the 350 was a very poor choice... go figure..

Doesn't he always think that about Boeing orders?

Quoting Thorben (Reply 9):
they could use them until A350s arrive.

When exactly would that be 2015-2016? O' wait... It's not even launched yet.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: I Am Seeing Air Canada CEO Next Week Help!

Sun Oct 22, 2006 10:47 am

Quoting Boeingfever777 (Reply 36):

Doesn't he always think that about Boeing orders?

Basically, and Boeing basically wins orders because of "political considerations"....go figure.. sarcastic 

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 35):
Anyway we do know that the 330s will be the last out of it's fleet when their B planes arrive. we all know why, it's a great plane for AC

Sure, but there are better planes coming in-line...cough, cough...787's... Wink
"Up the Irons!"
 
timeair
Posts: 421
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 1:41 am

RE: I Am Seeing Air Canada CEO Next Week Help!

Sun Oct 22, 2006 11:16 am

Quoting CanadianNorth (Reply 16):
It's about using the CRJ to YXY

They fly 1 CRJ and 1 CR7 daily.

Expect to see more CR7/E90 aircraft next spring and once all of the E-jets have been delivered, mainly E90 aircraft for summer ops.
The CRJ/CR7 may be an additional lift for summer months if waranted, but I hate to say, you will likely see mainly CRJ/CR7 for winter ops unless a large group is booked for Aurora Borealis tours.
You can't get there from here.
 
CF188A
Posts: 680
Joined: Sun May 07, 2006 12:27 am

RE: I Am Seeing Air Canada CEO Next Week Help!

Sun Oct 22, 2006 12:32 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 3):
Why does AC have such a bad fleet policy?

The worlds most state of the art fleet... your an airbus loyalist and refuse to look beyond the fact that airlines are trying to save money.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 9):
Honestly, how smart is that? A340 and 777 are planes of the same generation. With all the A320/30/40 they have, getting some more A345 and A346 would have been the much smarter option, no matter what Boeing says. Now they are changing horses in the middle of the race. Their airbus WBs are still good planes, they could use them until A350s arrive. No need to buy 777NGs, which will be completely obsolete by 2015. With all their airbus pilots and mechanics, it is hard to understand what they want with 787s. That's what I call bad fleet policy, ask her about it.

To my knowledge... mechanics are mechanics based on their specialization whether it be general electric, prat and Whitney, etc... not AIRBUS ... BOEING... ETC. To be honest I use to LOVE airbus before the 777LRs proved to be one of the most technological aviation advances we have ever seen. Also the 320 lease has been renewed, the lease is up and BELIEVE IT OR NOT the original plan was to get rid of all airbus and possibly purchase 737NGs... (seeing as how AC gave them a possible 50 + of their desired airframe). I have also heard that perhaps more Embraer (190+), could be purchased as the 320 begins to phase out. It would be stupid IDEA to keep the 345s, and even a more dim witted idea to purchase the 346 as it does indeed have four engines which is four times the cost, and four times the maintenance, and four times the jobs. Has it not hit you that possibly purchasing aircraft from Boeing also produces jobs here and in the United States rather than overseas? Airlines try to save money...........can you believe that! There is NO other airline like Air Canada in the world. Dash 8s (great for their mission), CRJs (GREAT FOR THEIR MISSION, EMBRAER LOYALISTS and RJ bashers are not welcomed to quote this. The aircraft is far beyond successful), Embraer 170/190 ( self explanatory ... just a great efficient choice), A320 family, (right now the 320 is still the backbone of the AC fleet. I think it would be fair to say this aircraft brings in most of the $? Please feel free to comment), 7672/3(another beast which in all fairness, is quite cost effective given its task, you do not fly a 340 from Toronto to Rome if there are only 170 seats booked...im sure thorben would ob-eject to this because .... well like just buy 40 A346s for no reason and send them everywhere!...), the 340/330 . Air Canada will in fact keep the 330 for many more years to come. I think they are making a decision similar to that of KLM when it comes to both the 777 and 330. The 340 on the other hand is not very cost efficient for Air Canada's liking.... and of course, they are removing all quad aircraft (which is a brilliant idea). Dash 8s, CRJs, EMBs, A320s, 330s, 777s, 787s.... who can beat this fleet... honestly?

What i posted is just common sense and simple fact. Just for the record before you post something so uneducated and bias, make sure you acknowledge it first. Wink I love Boeing, Airbus, Bombardier, Embraer, Tupolev, DeHavilland, ETC.... flying is flying Smile
Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die tomorrow~ RIP ... LJFM
 
klm672
Posts: 2514
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 1999 6:09 am

RE: I Am Seeing Air Canada CEO Next Week Help!

Sun Oct 22, 2006 12:37 pm

I just scrolled down so I am sorry if this has been discussed, if so please let me know..
Flying AC in May and June on the 767, will they have ptvs?
 
DC10Forever
Posts: 81
Joined: Tue Oct 18, 2005 10:25 pm

RE: I Am Seeing Air Canada CEO Next Week Help!

Sun Oct 22, 2006 2:18 pm

Please, congratulate her for buying our Brazilian aircraft instead of the Canadian ones. We appreciate that !  Wink
Better one flying than two grounded
 
virgin747
Posts: 289
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 1999 12:20 am

RE: I Am Seeing Air Canada CEO Next Week Help!

Sun Oct 22, 2006 2:46 pm

Quoting Cityguy (Reply 25):
Quoting Thorben (Reply 3):
Why does AC have such a bad fleet policy?

Sore Loser. Case Closed.

Highly agreed...

Back to topic....
we also have to look at how underpowered those A343s are.... Putting 4 A320/737ng engines on a widebody isn't any justice in my opinon. They can't do Canada-India without the technical stop. Hence the T7 will give them that capability. Atleast those birds had some power. And i'm sure those T7s will open more doors that ACA needs that the 343s couldn't. Thank you GE90.
The 345 was a good purchase.... just too late. And if i'm right they also had 346s on the order but was canned during the bankruptcy protection.
But not to sound bias... since the 345 is very capable.... its sad to see them leaving before the 330s. I'm sure they are pulling their load for the airline on the HKG-YYZ runs.

And maitenance wise the 777ER/LR 787 mix is good since its going to be the General Electric show.... vs whats on now... a mix of Rolls Royce and CFM engines. Not saying Air Canada doesnt deal with other types... the V2500s of Jetblue 320s out here in Winnipeg.

And about this stuff about BA? What about Cathay Pacific.... Which had a 747/L1011 mix... For a very long time I might add.... Until '95 when the A340 was introduced into the fleet and the L1011s retired. Since that they've ordered the whole restaurant menu really..... 330s 340s and T7s.
And then there is JAL.... No A340s or 330s for long haul.... They have the A300 for their smaller routes and companies... and even then they have custom made 747s and T7s doing domestic runs....
 
aircanada014
Posts: 1224
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 2:24 pm

RE: I Am Seeing Air Canada CEO Next Week Help!

Sun Oct 22, 2006 3:17 pm

Quoting CF188A (Reply 39):
What i posted is just common sense and simple fact. Just for the record before you post something so uneducated and bias, make sure you acknowledge it first. I love Boeing, Airbus, Bombardier, Embraer, Tupolev, DeHavilland, ETC.... flying is flying

You are absolutely right CF188A. I couldn't agree more. Maintenance cost, fuel costs, training costs saves alot if they keep to minimal type of fleet and engines.. Don't need all of those engine types RR, CFM, PW, Pratt Whitney, GE

Can you imagine having so many different a/c if all combined in AC fleet of Lockheeds, Boeings and Airbus and MacDonald Douglass fleets.. too expensive for cross training from narrowbody MacDonald to widebody Boeing or Airbus. 3 engines or 4 engines will eat up the fuel costs.. heavy maintenance for each different a/c and engine types.. It all makes sense to try to keep it to minimal types and commonality flight deck. The only advantage of cost savings if it were all airbus fleets of narrow and widebody were the commonality flight deck so the training is shorter days required than longer days.. 2 engines will burn less than 3 or 4 engines..

AC made good choices.
all airbus narrow have same engines and same flight deck features so cost savings are there including the maintenance is a big savings too they share all same. All new B777 and B787s have same engine company GE and they are twin engines save on fuel and flight deck will almost be the same too.. B777 have a similar flight deck as the B767-300ER as to B747-400 if I'm not mistaken...
 
aviasian
Posts: 1244
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2001 8:11 am

RE: I Am Seeing Air Canada CEO Next Week Help!

Sun Oct 22, 2006 6:22 pm

How about asking her of Air Canada's plans for Asia . . . this is a region that has been booming for some time already and Canadian carriers have thus far steered clear of the economic upturn.

Many thanks.

KC Sim
 
Thorben
Posts: 2713
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 10:29 pm

RE: I Am Seeing Air Canada CEO Next Week Help!

Mon Oct 23, 2006 1:25 am

Quoting Cruiser (Reply 10):
How smart is it to renew the leases on older, fuel guzzling planes?

Their only gas guzzlers are the 767s, which are too small anyway, which you can see in AC's past financial troubles.

Quoting Cruiser (Reply 10):
the 787 is likely to be more fuel efficient than the A350.

With the A350 using four years newer technology, that is a pretty bold statement.

Quoting Cruiser (Reply 10):
I cannot wait to see the 'completely obselete 777NG's' which will serve them for almost 8 years before anything comes close in terms of economics.

Only eight years, that is not very long for an airplane to serve.

Quoting Cruiser (Reply 10):
It all comes down to money, and let's face it, the Boeing solution was cheaper

Let's just see how AC does in the future. (Moneywise)

Quoting Sebring (Reply 12):
Considering it has 45 Boeing 767s some of which are getting a little long in the tooth, and considering Airbus does not have an adequate 767 replacement, the A350 probably being too large for most Air Canada missions

Like the 787 was any smaller than the A350.

Quoting Sebring (Reply 12):
The alternative was the A340-600HGW, and I am fairly certain AC gave this plane a hard look, and generally liked it especially on price, but Airbus couldn't make the total package work.

They actually have still three A346 on order. I suspect Boeing sold their planes at a very low price in order to win back a major Airbus customer.

Quoting Sebring (Reply 12):
The 787 and A350 do not challenge the 777-300ER like they do the 777-200LR.

No? The A350-1000 does, in my opinion.

Quoting Sebring (Reply 12):
The A340s carry just under 280 passengers.

Which ones? The -600 can carry 380 people, although their common seating is around 320.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 13):
As I said, you are upset that they are going for Boeing widebodies over Airbus....its really as simple as that... Wink

I'm not upset, I just think they went wrong. And if somebody sees a senior manager of AC, he can ask questions about it.

Quoting 777ER (Reply 33):
A340s are the worst built airplanes in terms of gas usuage.

 laughing   laughing   laughing   laughing 

Worst of all times, I suspect. Why does LH then state, that their A346 have the best fuel burn of their whole fleet? A fleet that includes A332s, A333s, and 747s?

Quoting 777ER (Reply 33):
The B777s have the signature interior, and is the only aircraft to ever win an award for its interior and passenger comfort.

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 

The interior depends on what you put into it. I's take an EK A345 with its first claas suites over a trashe Varig T7 anytime.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 36):
Basically, and Boeing basically wins orders because of "political considerations"....go figure.. sarcastic

No, Boeing has never had help by US politicians selling overpriced aircraft to countries that need US help, or have a huge trade surplus with the US, have relationships, etc. No US politician would ever do something for US jobs. Nonono.

Quoting CF188A (Reply 38):
The worlds most state of the art fleet... your an airbus loyalist and refuse to look beyond the fact that airlines are trying to save money.

I believe money played a role, yes. Why does Boeing have high list prices for T7s, when the Japanese and Washington state government pay them to build airplanes? To make rebates look HUGE?
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
CanadianNorth
Posts: 3142
Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2002 11:41 am

RE: I Am Seeing Air Canada CEO Next Week Help!

Mon Oct 23, 2006 1:44 am

Quoting TIMEAIR (Reply 37):
They fly 1 CRJ and 1 CR7 daily.

Expect to see more CR7/E90 aircraft next spring and once all of the E-jets have been delivered, mainly E90 aircraft for summer ops.
The CRJ/CR7 may be an additional lift for summer months if waranted, but I hate to say, you will likely see mainly CRJ/CR7 for winter ops unless a large group is booked for Aurora Borealis tours.

Ok, I was wrong, it is 1x CRJ and 1x CRA. Sorry about that.

But from what I understand the CRJ705 isn't really any better than the 200 for luggage, so I can't see that helping much.

Another point I would like to make is that YXY is now an all-Jazz base, so next summer will most likely be the same as this last summer, still CRJs and CRAs, just more frequency. Over the last year its basically been 2x daily CRJ/CRA in winter and then about 4x CRJ/CRA come summer.


CanadianNorth
Way to go, nice and slow, never late, 748!
 
sebring
Posts: 1323
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:08 am

RE: I Am Seeing Air Canada CEO Next Week Help!

Mon Oct 23, 2006 1:52 am

To Thorben:

1. The 787-8 is smaller than the A350 and it is closely matched to AC's 767-300s.

2. Those three A346s have been cancelled

3. The A343s and A345s that AC has are configured as 275-seats, give or take a seat. AC uses a loser configuration than many carriers. It's 777-300ERs will have 320 seats.

4. Is AC wrong? Not when Airbus does not have a true 767-300 replacement. The A350 is a larger aircraft, and 20 seats more than the 787-8 means it is optimized for a different type of customer. AC bought the A320 back in the late 1990s because it range was optimized for longer haul services, whereas Boeing was optimizing its 737 product at the time for US carrier hub operations, and could not offer transcontinental range.

Boeing was so desperate to get the AC deal because AC is a large Western airline, respected for its technical analytical capability and being neither U.S. nor European, had no inherent politically-inspired bias for either manufacturer. Taking away such a big Airbus client would send a major message.

I can assure you that Air Canada not only got a great price for the 777s and 787s, but it also got some contract features that have never been published or discussed that were certainly unique at the time (and may still be unique). These features will translate into additional cost certainty in the areas of fuel consumption and maintenance expense, meaning that it is highly unlikely that AC will have "nasty surprises" if any of the Boeing planes fail to live up to specifications. In other words, if there are an extraordinary failures with these Boeing products, Boeing will be doing what Airbus is doing today with the A380 customers - cutting cheques or conferring other offsetting benefits to those airlines.

Airbus offered a reasonable product to counter the 777-300ER: priced aggressively, the A346HGW comes off as a competitive purchase, but the 787 portion of the deal was unmatchable. Keep in mind that the A350 that Airbus was showing customers two years ago when these negotiations were happening in earnest is not the plane Airbus may now produce. Even now, the A350 is a paper airplane whose launch may well be deferred to the middle of the next decade, well past when Air Canada would have wanted deliveries to begin.

AC also liked the idea of a freighter based on the large widebody it was ordering, which Boeing had but Airbus didn't at the time.

Today, with a new A350 and an A330 freighter, Airbus might make a more coherent pitch, but at the time, it could meet only one of Air Canada's three major requirements.

From almost every conceivable angle, it was the right decision.

[Edited 2006-10-22 18:53:24]
 
sebring
Posts: 1323
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:08 am

RE: I Am Seeing Air Canada CEO Next Week Help!

Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:06 am

Quoting Motopolitico (Reply 25):
If I were the CEO of AC, I'd be very slow to do a major widebody deal with Airbus after the kickback scandal. Mulroney may have escaped the blame, but there is much about that dirty, dirty deal that we still don't know. It's still going to be a while before any headline including "Air Canada" and "Airbus" won't incite snorts of derision from BC to Newfoundland. For PR purposes alone, I wouldn't order airbus for a long time, just to be above suspicion in the Canadian public eye. I'd argue that this does make them partially beholden, in a way, to Boeing.

Air Canada acquired A319s, A321s, A330-300s, A340-300s and A340-500s, all after the A320 purchase scandal, which, by the way, never implicated anyone at the airline or appears to have influenced the A320 purchase. Your analysis is totally flawed.

AC ordered the A320 because, as I have stated elsewhere, it had the range to replace the 727-200 fleet which was being eliminated (sold to FedEx). Boeing, hung up on designing planes for U.S. hub carriers and Southwest which didn't need transcontinental range, could only offer 737s with less than transcontinental range - defined as the abiliity to fly Montreal-Vancouver nonstop with a full payload in all weather conditions - or the 757, which was deemed by AC to be way too large for its requirements.

The A320 was a nice compromise - a 130-seater with transcontinental range or the ability to fly deep into the Caribbean, which is optimal for many Canadian markets. A 190-seater would fly around a lot of time with 100-120 passengers, and AC also wanted to offer max frequencies on key long-haul routes.

It would be several years before Boeing corrected this flaw in its fleet with the 737NG series. The 737-700 offers all of the right characteristics for a Canadian long-haul aircraft, which is why Westjet is using it as the backbone of its fleet.

At one point in the late 1990s, most Canadian carriers - AC, Canadian Airlines, Transat, Skyservice and Canada 3000 - were flying A320s because it was the most versatile plane available.

It had nothing to do with bribed officials, but because the A320 was deemed the right plane for the Canadian marketplace.
 
PlaneHunter
Posts: 6518
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:17 am

RE: I Am Seeing Air Canada CEO Next Week Help!

Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:15 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 9):
Now they are changing horses in the middle of the race. Their airbus WBs are still good planes, they could use them until A350s arrive. No need to buy 777NGs, which will be completely obsolete by 2015.

I'm sure AC managers have evaluated all options and I guess they were convinced by the option to replace their A330s, A340s and B767s by B787s and B777s.

The B777-300ER and -200LR (there's no "B777NG") obsolete in 2015? That's based on what?

Quoting Thorben (Reply 9):
With all their airbus pilots and mechanics, it is hard to understand what they want with 787s. That's what I call bad fleet policy, ask her about it.

You seem to forget that they operate one of the largest B767 fleets in the world...and the B787-8 is significantly smaller than the smallest A350 version (if Airbus doesn't change specifications again).

Quoting 777ER (Reply 33):
Maybe thats one of the reasons why passengers prefer flying the B777.

Can you present a neutral survey to prove that? Most passengers don't even know which plane they're flying on.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 44):
Their only gas guzzlers are the 767s, which are too small anyway, which you can see in AC's past financial troubles.

First of all, when you call "B767s gas guzzlers", then please present a source. If the B763ERs were gas guzzlers, the deserts would be full of them.
Secondly, when you claim the B767s are related to AC's financial problems in the past, then please present a source.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 44):
Let's just see how AC does in the future.

The B777s' fuel bill will be lower than the A340s'...that's a certainty.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 44):
Like the 787 was any smaller than the A350.

Yes it is, depending on the version. Unlike Airbus, Boeing offers a true A300/B767 replacement.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 44):
They actually have still three A346 on order. I suspect Boeing sold their planes at a very low price in order to win back a major Airbus customer.

Probably, probably not. At least Boeing doesn't need to offer "cashback" deals in order to sell planes...

Quoting Thorben (Reply 44):
Which ones? The -600 can carry 380 people, although their common seating is around 320.

The A380 can carry 555 pax in a typical layout - as suggested by Airbus. So how many airlines are going to install so many seats?

Quoting Thorben (Reply 44):
Why does LH then state, that their A346 have the best fuel burn of their whole fleet? A fleet that includes A332s, A333s, and 747s?

Can you post a link?

Quoting Thorben (Reply 44):
The interior depends on what you put into it. I's take an EK A345 with its first claas suites over a trashe Varig T7 anytime.

You seem to mix something up. Here's an explanation:

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/777family/background/back3.html

Quoting Thorben (Reply 44):
Why does Boeing have high list prices for T7s, when the Japanese and Washington state government pay them to build airplanes?

High demand, high prices.


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
boeingfever777
Posts: 1990
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:35 am

RE: I Am Seeing Air Canada CEO Next Week Help!

Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:57 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 44):
They actually have still three A346 on order.

Only in your mind and Airbus order/delivery sheet it shows they are still on order.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 44):
Worst of all times, I suspect. Why does LH then state, that their A346 have the best fuel burn of their whole fleet? A fleet that includes A332s, A333s, and 747s?

Link?
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