goomba
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KLM MD-11 At SFO This Morning

Sun Oct 22, 2006 12:04 pm

I am wondering if anyone can explain why there was a KLM MD-11 at SFO this morning at 8:30 am PT?

I realize that the KLM MD-11 is a daily arrival into SFO, but why was she here so early? Was this yesterday's flight that didn't go out for some reason? If so, why not?
 
walter747
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RE: KLM MD-11 At SFO This Morning

Sun Oct 22, 2006 12:24 pm

where else do their md-11's operate
Hussel, Hussel, Husel, Grind, Grind, Grind
 
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legacyins
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RE: KLM MD-11 At SFO This Morning

Sun Oct 22, 2006 12:25 pm

KL 606 went mechanical on Friday. Something wrong with the #3 engine. At about 1530 today, they taxied it out to a holding area at the end of 1L/R and fired up the engines. It was a very calm and warm day today and I heard the engines all the was back at Terminal A. It departed at about 1830 tonight from G99.

KL 605 arrived as usual this afternoon.
 
HB-IWC
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RE: KLM MD-11 At SFO This Morning

Sun Oct 22, 2006 2:08 pm

As said KL606/20OCT had a technical issue which first delayed the flight until noon/21OCT but finally the flight didn't take off until late at night. It is currently expected to arrive at AMS at 16.44LT or just about 30 hours behind schedule.
 
ikramerica
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RE: KLM MD-11 At SFO This Morning

Sun Oct 22, 2006 3:02 pm

What happens when a plane is delayed more than 24 hours and the same flight leaves the next day. How are pax reaccomodated? I assume they were put on other flights, but if I were forced to stick around till the next day and then saw the next day's flight leave before my original flight, I'd be a little bit annoyed.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
leelaw
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RE: KLM MD-11 At SFO This Morning

Sun Oct 22, 2006 3:45 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 4):
What happens when a plane is delayed more than 24 hours and the same flight leaves the next day. How are pax reaccomodated?

It's happened to me a half dozen times on flights to the mainland departing from Kona when there was NO possibility of being re-accommodated on an earlier flight, in one case the delayed flight departed more than 36 hours late. Such are the joys of being a frequent flyer from an isolated station.
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
HB-IWC
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RE: KLM MD-11 At SFO This Morning

Sun Oct 22, 2006 4:02 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 4):
What happens when a plane is delayed more than 24 hours and the same flight leaves the next day. How are pax reaccomodated? I assume they were put on other flights, but if I were forced to stick around till the next day and then saw the next day's flight leave before my original flight, I'd be a little bit annoyed.

I would imagine that the station would do its best to reaccomodate a many passengers as possible, and that the original flight, which is currently returning to AMS, would be virtually empty because of that.
 
PHKLM
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RE: KLM MD-11 At SFO This Morning

Sun Oct 22, 2006 4:50 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 3):
As said KL606/20OCT had a technical issue which first delayed the flight until noon/21OCT but finally the flight didn't take off until late at night. It is currently expected to arrive at AMS at 16.44LT or just about 30 hours behind schedule.

I know A/C tend to go MX at times, but it's *again* the M11...
We've said this many times; but KL must operate the birds for free, otherwise there is no economic sense to update and refurbish such an unreliable set of M11's.
Who owns these birds? KLM, ILFC?
What is the sales value of an M11 in 2015? This must be virtually 0, especially because a whole lot of airplanes will enter the second hand market at that time, when the 787 and 350 have hit steady production rates.
Why don't they order the 767-400 as a replacement?  duck   Wink
 
HB-IWC
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RE: KLM MD-11 At SFO This Morning

Sun Oct 22, 2006 5:18 pm

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 7):
I know A/C tend to go MX at times, but it's *again* the M11...

While the MD11 has regular hickups in the KLM longhaul fleet, and as a result of that probably features the lowest dispatch reliability of all KLM longhaul components, I don't think the problem should be exaggerated.

There are sometimes issues with other aircraft as well. Just last week, an A332 was unserviceable for a couple of days and later there were some issues with the B74Es as well, resulting in the cancelation of a KWI service (A332) and after that a KUL-CGK roundtrip (B74E).

KLM boasts high utilization for its longhaul fleet, and while this is commercially beneficial, the downside is that the operation becomes relatively more prone to operational instabilities in case of maintenance related issues because high utilization inevitably entails less spare capacity and a loss of operational degrees of freedom.

Add to that the relatively small 10-strong MD11 fleet - industry standard for a stable operation would be more than 10 frames - and the ongoing program of cabin refurbishment for the MD11s, which keeps at least one frame on the ground at all times, and it isn't hard to realize that the operation is prone to irregularities.
 
WSOY
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RE: KLM MD-11 At SFO This Morning

Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:14 am

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 8):
Add to that the relatively small 10-strong MD11 fleet - industry standard for a stable operation would be more than 10 frames


Can name a couple of enterprises that are not up that industrial standard and hence must be unstable.
"Nukkuessa tulee nälkä" (Nipsu)
 
HB-IWC
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RE: KLM MD-11 At SFO This Morning

Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:23 am

Quoting WSOY (Reply 9):
Can name a couple of enterprises that are not up that industrial standard and hence must be unstable.

That's right, and that is the reason why limited fleet size - typically less that ten identically configured frames - very often goes hand in hand with somewhat lower utilization rates. Operational instability is reinforced by the combination of a limited fleet size with high utilization rates. KLM, for one, champions high utilization rates.
 
WSOY
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RE: KLM MD-11 At SFO This Morning

Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:53 am

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 10):
That's right, and that is the reason why limited fleet size - typically less that ten identically configured frames - very often goes hand in hand with somewhat lower utilization rates

Can you quote me some of those rates for selected MD11 operators?
"Nukkuessa tulee nälkä" (Nipsu)
 
N1120A
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RE: KLM MD-11 At SFO This Morning

Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:17 am

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 5):
It's happened to me a half dozen times on flights to the mainland departing from Kona when there was NO possibility of being re-accommodated on an earlier flight, in one case the delayed flight departed more than 36 hours late. Such are the joys of being a frequent flyer from an isolated station.

They couldn't just ship you up to HNL or OGG?

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 7):
What is the sales value of an M11 in 2015? This must be virtually 0, especially because a whole lot of airplanes will enter the second hand market at that time, when the 787 and 350 have hit steady production rates.

The sales value on an M11 will still be strong because the cargo carriers will still want them for their ability to lift heavy and relatively low cost. Further, the commercial value to KLM of having a still efficient, long range aircraft far outweighs that of selling them now and having to invest even more in expensive new aircraft.

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 7):
Why don't they order the 767-400 as a replacement?

Range, range, range and did I mention range?
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
PHKLM
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RE: KLM MD-11 At SFO This Morning

Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:55 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 12):
Range, range, range and did I mention range?

Although I was just kidding about the 764, isn't the range of the 764 enough for all the routes that KLM operates the M11 on?
I thought the range was 5600nm, that brings you to a lot of places from AMS.

Anyway, a pity KLM did not decide to replace the M11's with 777's.
 
N1120A
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RE: KLM MD-11 At SFO This Morning

Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:00 am

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 13):
Although I was just kidding about the 764, isn't the range of the 764 enough for all the routes that KLM operates the M11 on?
I thought the range was 5600nm, that brings you to a lot of places from AMS.



As it is, 763ERs have trouble at times of the year making West Coast-CDG, a 764ER would find it even more troublesome

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 13):
Anyway, a pity KLM did not decide to replace the M11's with 777's.

Actually, they are.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
jacobin777
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RE: KLM MD-11 At SFO This Morning

Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:01 am

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 13):

Anyway, a pity KLM did not decide to replace the M11's with 777's.

While possible not a direct replacement (dont' know that)..KL has added 777's to their fleet (and will be adding more in the future).. biggrin 


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warreng24
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RE: KLM MD-11 At SFO This Morning

Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:36 am

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 7):
What is the sales value of an M11 in 2015? This must be virtually 0, especially because a whole lot of airplanes will enter the second hand market at that time, when the 787 and 350 have hit steady production rates.

Used MD-11's are in VERY high demand for conversion into freighters.
 
leelaw
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RE: KLM MD-11 At SFO This Morning

Mon Oct 23, 2006 1:35 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 12):
They couldn't just ship you up to HNL or OGG?

That doesn't seem to be a viable option when the delayed/cancelled flight is scheduled to leave Kona after 9PM local time (overnight/red-eye flights) when inter-island service has ended or is about to end for the day. Even if they send the passengers on to HNL or OGG the next day to catch flights to the mainland, assuming there's space available on the requisite inter-island and mainland flights to provide such "re-accommodations," the delayed passengers still won't depart for the mainland until the next afternoon or evening anyway.
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
N1120A
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RE: KLM MD-11 At SFO This Morning

Mon Oct 23, 2006 1:47 pm

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 17):
That doesn't seem to be a viable option when the delayed/cancelled flight is scheduled to leave Kona after 9PM local time (overnight/red-eye flights) when inter-island service has ended or is about to end for the day. Even if they send the passengers on to HNL or OGG the next day to catch flights to the mainland, assuming there's space available on the requisite inter-island and mainland flights to provide such "re-accommodations," the delayed passengers still won't depart for the mainland until the next afternoon or evening anyway.

You have a point, though you could say that is true of almost any red-eye situation
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
HB-IWC
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RE: KLM MD-11 At SFO This Morning

Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:43 pm

Sunday night's KL606 SFO again faced technical problems, and left SFO over 6 hours late.

Quoting WSOY (Reply 11):
Can you quote me some of those rates for selected MD11 operators?

Will get back to you on that one as soon as I get some numbers together.
 
copaair737
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RE: KLM MD-11 At SFO This Morning

Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:50 pm

Does KLM fly the 747 to SFO at all? I seem to recall them saying they were adding them for the summer season, but did they? And do the 777s fly there anymore?

-Copa
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WSOY
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RE: KLM MD-11 At SFO This Morning

Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:03 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 19):
Can you quote me some of those rates for selected MD11 operators?

Will get back to you on that one as soon as I get some numbers together.

Thanks, I'd appreciate that. Some hard work that, if the numbers are not precompiled. My hunch is that some with the largest MD-11 fleet have the lowest utilisation rate.
"Nukkuessa tulee nälkä" (Nipsu)
 
PHKLM
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RE: KLM MD-11 At SFO This Morning

Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:34 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 15):
While possible not a direct replacement (dont' know that)..KL has added 777's to their fleet (and will be adding more in the future)..

I know, love watching them on take-off from the viewing terrace at AMS when they use runway 24.
My point is, the 777 is not an M11 replacement, as they (M11) will stay in the fleet until 2015. By that time, KLM will choose between the 350 and 787, it's highly unlikely they go for the -by that time- almost 20 year old 777.
Can't wait to fly the 77W on KLM though, that will be a stunning looking bird.
 
HB-IWC
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RE: KLM MD-11 At SFO This Morning

Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:54 pm

Quoting Copaair737 (Reply 20):
Does KLM fly the 747 to SFO at all?

KLM will operate the B744 in full pax version on KL605/606 AMS SFO AMS during the summer season 2007. The flight has been operated by MD11 ever since the B772 was taken of the route at the end of the summer schedule 2005.
 
HB-IWC
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RE: KLM MD-11 At SFO This Morning

Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:57 pm

Quoting WSOY (Reply 21):
Thanks, I'd appreciate that. Some hard work that, if the numbers are not precompiled. My hunch is that some with the largest MD-11 fleet have the lowest utilisation rate.

I have some of those numbers available because of previous research. Your intuition is not correct. As I predicted, the larger fleet mostly results in the greater utilization rate. Anyway, here are some numbers:

KLM (10 frames) - based on data from earlier this summer, (read about it here) average daily utilization for the MD11 fleet is 16 hours 58 minutes

Finnair (7 frames) - based on data for this week, average daily utilization for the MD11 fleet is 16 hours 00 minutes

Swissair (19 frames) - based on data of 5 years ago (read about it in this old thread), the airline had an average daily utilization rate of 17 hours 16 minutes

Sabena (2 frames) - based on data of the same time, Sabena had an average daily utilization of 14 hours 57 minutes

All of these numbers reflect utilization in the northern summer season, which are typically higher than those during the calmer winter season. I somewhere have numbers for Alitalia's MD11 utilization, which I remember to be in the 13 hours range, but I somehow can't seem to find them.

Larger fleets typically allow the airlines involve to jack up utilization without jeopardizing operational stability. It is clear, though, that all utilization rates quoted above are above industry average, partly because they concern peak season figures, but also partly because these airlines squeeze maximum utilization out of their fleet. As a result, both Finnair's and KLM's MD11 operation is not particularly stable, and relatively prone to delays.
 
lamedianaranja
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RE: KLM MD-11 At SFO This Morning

Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:06 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 4):
if I were forced to stick around till the next day and then saw the next day's flight leave before my original flight, I'd be a little bit annoyed.

But you have already experienced some annoyance because of your delay and if at that point the airline starts bumping off passengers to accommodate delayed passengers they have 2 bunches of annoyed passengers Sad

So they try to find good alternatives for the delayed pax without disadvantaging more people.
I wish that all skies were orange and blue!!
 
WSOY
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RE: KLM MD-11 At SFO This Morning

Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:25 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 24):
Thanks, I'd appreciate that. Some hard work that, if the numbers are not precompiled. My hunch is that some with the largest MD-11 fleet have the lowest utilisation rate.

Nice work HB-IWC! Actually with "a large fleet" I was hoping the numbers for FedEx and the like might be revelead. Think I saw somewhere a number of 8 hours mentioned for FedEx. Now the other, hard part, would be to collect all tech delays and
cancellations and correlate them with the utilization data.
Forgive me, but I'm still sceptical that if your plane goes tech at Nagoya, a "spare" airframe in Helsinki would not help at all. If you have a fleet of 20, your management might have allocated the work for the 20 precisely? Perhaps on short routes you could combine and rearrange, but not on long haul flights.

[Edited 2006-10-23 13:37:11]
"Nukkuessa tulee nälkä" (Nipsu)
 
HB-IWC
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RE: KLM MD-11 At SFO This Morning

Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:31 pm

Quoting WSOY (Reply 26):
I was hoping the numbers for FedEx and the like might be revelead. Think I saw somewhere a number of 8 hours mentioned for FedEx

I don't have the utilization rates for FedEX, and I am not saying that the rate you quote is impossible, but at the very least it seems highly unlikely to me. Someone on this forum once said that low utilization is praticed either by the very wealthy or by the very stupid, and I don't think that FedEx belongs in either category. Still, I can't dispute the numbers as I don't have the data.
 
WSOY
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RE: KLM MD-11 At SFO This Morning

Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:39 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 27):
Someone on this forum once said that low utilization is praticed either by the very wealthy or by the very stupid, and I don't think that FedEx belongs in either category

I see that. But if someone says they have much of a "peak traffic", I'd agree.
"Nukkuessa tulee nälkä" (Nipsu)
 
HB-IWC
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RE: KLM MD-11 At SFO This Morning

Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:09 pm

Another bad streak of delays in the KLM MD11 operation yesterday when 3 MD11 operated flight left AMS multiple hours late, and hence are returning with similar delays today. KL873/HYD, KL671/YUL and KL553/CAI all left Schiphol between 3.5 and 5 hours late because of a follow up of technical problems. Not a good day for Schiphol ground staff today, for sure, dealing with all those miscons...
 
jacobin777
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RE: KLM MD-11 At SFO This Morning

Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:35 pm

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 22):
Can't wait to fly the 77W on KLM though, that will be a stunning looking bird.

damn right...I can't either... biggrin 

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 22):
My point is, the 777 is not an M11 replacement, as they (M11) will stay in the fleet until 2015. By that time, KLM will choose between the 350 and 787

ahh..got you.. thumbsup ....certainly they will go either with the A350 or B787....will be interesting to see how they do this..if they need a smaller family of planes, they will go with the 787, but if they need a larger family of planes, the A350 might be the better fit....of course, I'm hoping they will go with the 787... Wink

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 23):
KLM will operate the B744 in full pax version on KL605/606 AMS SFO AMS during the summer season 2007.

ooohh..here comes some new photos with my brand new equipment.. bigthumbsup  bigthumbsup 

In the meantime, I think they should send a few A330's our way too... Smile

Oddly enough, besides NW's A330, there are no A330's @ SFO... Sad

Maybe EI will come one day to SFO... Smile
"Up the Irons!"
 
ehho
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RE: KLM MD-11 At SFO This Morning

Wed Oct 25, 2006 4:21 pm

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 22):
Can't wait to fly the 77W on KLM though, that will be a stunning looking bird.

I heard it's going to be a low-yield pax plane mostly, with 3-4-3 seating. Good luck!
"Get your facts first. Then you may distort them as much as you please" -- Mark Twain
 
PHKLM
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RE: KLM MD-11 At SFO This Morning

Wed Oct 25, 2006 5:19 pm

Quoting EHHO (Reply 31):
I heard it's going to be a low-yield pax plane mostly, with 3-4-3 seating. Good luck!

Trying to rain on my parade right?  grumpy 
I can't see why KLM would order 3 77W's (not exactly a cheap airplane), and then deploy them on low-yielding routes while they no problems filling their planes on high yielding routes...
Let's just hope for the best; if true it's another reason to go AF long-haul, sometimes it seems that's what they're after anyway.
 
WSOY
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RE: KLM MD-11 At SFO This Morning

Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:09 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 29):
KL873/HYD, KL671/YUL and KL553/CAI all left Schiphol between 3.5 and 5 hours late because of a follow up of technical problems.

But if these planes had been members of a fleet of 20 instead, they would have sensed it and repaired themselves...  Smile
"Nukkuessa tulee nälkä" (Nipsu)
 
HB-IWC
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RE: KLM MD-11 At SFO This Morning

Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:04 pm

Quoting WSOY (Reply 33):
But if these planes had been members of a fleet of 20 instead, they would have sensed it and repaired themselves...

If these planes had been members of a 20-strong fleet instead, the odds that some spare capacity was on the ground would have been way better and chances are that a simple equipment change would have sufficed to solve this problem and minimize outbound delays.
 
ehho
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RE: KLM MD-11 At SFO This Morning

Wed Oct 25, 2006 11:08 pm

Sorry, posted in wrong thread. Please ignore.

[Edited 2006-10-25 16:09:59]
"Get your facts first. Then you may distort them as much as you please" -- Mark Twain
 
WSOY
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RE: KLM MD-11 At SFO This Morning

Thu Oct 26, 2006 11:28 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 34):
If these planes had been members of a 20-strong fleet instead, the odds that some spare capacity was on the ground would have been way better and chances are that a simple equipment change would have sufficed to solve this problem and minimize outbound delays.

At any given moment, are there really planes waiting to be acting as a replacement with the major companies? Where are they located?
"Nukkuessa tulee nälkä" (Nipsu)
 
ehho
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RE: KLM MD-11 At SFO This Morning

Thu Oct 26, 2006 11:37 pm

Quoting WSOY (Reply 36):
At any given moment, are there really planes waiting to be acting as a replacement with the major companies? Where are they located?

At the hub of the airline?

Just my  twocents 
"Get your facts first. Then you may distort them as much as you please" -- Mark Twain
 
PHKLM
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RE: KLM MD-11 At SFO This Morning

Thu Oct 26, 2006 11:41 pm

Quoting WSOY (Reply 36):
At any given moment, are there really planes waiting to be acting as a replacement with the major companies? Where are they located?

HB-IWC meant that if you own a larger number of planes of the same type, the chances you have a spare frame available at any given time are much higher.
There are such spare frames available that operate for any given carrier, but this basically comes down to a charter flight.
I've once seen a Monarch plane operating easyJet CDG-GVA.
 
mk777
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RE: KLM MD-11 At SFO This Morning

Thu Oct 26, 2006 11:56 pm

When are KLM's 763 being retired, if at all? AMS-IAD-AMS (KL 651/652) currently gets 763 (days 1,2,4,5&6) or the 332 (days 3&7). I am wondering if this flight will permanently be the 332 if and when the 763 are retired!
come fly with me
 
PHKLM
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RE: KLM MD-11 At SFO This Morning

Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:39 am

Quoting Mk777 (Reply 39):
When are KLM's 763 being retired, if at all? AMS-IAD-AMS (KL 651/652) currently gets 763 (days 1,2,4,5&6) or the 332 (days 3&7). I am wondering if this flight will permanently be the 332 if and when the 763 are retired!

The 763 is replaced by the 332.
Current schedule:
11/2006 PH-BZG
01/2007 PH-BZH
02/2007 PH-BZI
03/2007 PH-BZO
03/2007 PH-BZM
04/2007 PH-BZK
 
HB-IWC
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RE: KLM MD-11 At SFO This Morning

Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:51 am

Quoting Mk777 (Reply 39):
When are KLM's 763 being retired, if at all? AMS-IAD-AMS (KL 651/652) currently gets 763 (days 1,2,4,5&6) or the 332 (days 3&7).

Here are the remaining B763 destinations for the upcoming winter schedule as well as the dates the last B763 flight on those routes:

Tehran - last flight KL433/434 on 26NOV
Atlanta - last flight KL621/622 on 30DEC
Kano/Abuja - last flight KL577 on 15 FEB
Entebbe - last flight KL561/562 on 17FEB
Dammam/Doha - last flight KL439/440 on 17FEB
Washington - last flight KL651/652 on 03MAR

It seems therefore that IAD will get the last KLM B763ER longhaul flight. All B763ER destinations will transfer to A332. Also note that KL651/652 after running daily with A332 from early March will be upgraded to B772ER from July 2007 onward.
 
WSOY
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RE: KLM MD-11 At SFO This Morning

Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:02 am

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 38):
HB-IWC meant that if you own a larger number of planes of the same type, the chances you have a spare frame available at any given time are much higher.

I understood that point. But, I see no real evidence that such "spare" airframes exist in reality at all! The point that he makes about "the larger carriers always having some spare capacity against technical faults", if I paraphrase him correctly, seems not valid to me at all.

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 38):

There are such spare frames available that operate for any given carrier, but this basically comes down to a charter flight.
I've once seen a Monarch plane operating easyJet CDG-GVA.

That would confirm what I suspected, would it not? My point is that, generally, there are no idle airframes around at short notice. Not with the smaller companies. Not with the larger companies. Not with anyone. Economics dictate that.
"Nukkuessa tulee nälkä" (Nipsu)
 
mk777
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RE: KLM MD-11 At SFO This Morning

Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:12 am

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 41):
Also note that KL651/652 after running daily with A332 from early March will be upgraded to B772ER from July 2007 onward.

Thanks for the info HB-IWC..very much appreciated. It will be nice to see the B772ER in KLM colours from my patio on approach 19L in July 2007.
come fly with me
 
HB-IWC
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RE: KLM MD-11 At SFO This Morning

Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:24 am

Quoting WSOY (Reply 42):
The point that he makes about "the larger carriers always having some spare capacity against technical faults", if I paraphrase him correctly, seems not valid to me at all.



Quoting WSOY (Reply 42):
My point is that, generally, there are no idle airframes around at short notice. Not with the smaller companies. Not with the larger companies. Not with anyone. Economics dictate that

Well, one more time, your suspicion is wrong. Some of us here actually do work in airline operations and are involved in scheduling and network design. A larger fleet of identically configured airframes allows for higher utlization while retaining the stability of the operation because of increased availability of spare frames.

Smaller fleet sizes impact either utilization rates or operational stability or a combination of both. That is what elementary operational economics dictate, no matter what you might think. Remarks like

Quoting WSOY (Reply 33):
But if these planes had been members of a fleet of 20 instead, they would have sensed it and repaired themselves..

are really not adding anything substantial to the discussion here. Again, some people in here actually do work in this industry and know what they are talking about. If still not convinced, read more about airline operational aspects in the following extensive threads:

http://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/2903482

http://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/2925290

http://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/2963292
 
mk777
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RE: KLM MD-11 At SFO This Morning

Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:30 am

One more thing...does KLM do AMS-DEL on an MD-11 still or did they change to B772ER? I remember 2 years ago, i almost missed my flight from DEL to AMS and it was an MD-11.
come fly with me
 
HB-IWC
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Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2000 1:09 am

RE: KLM MD-11 At SFO This Morning

Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:32 am

Quoting Mk777 (Reply 45):
One more thing...does KLM do AMS-DEL on an MD-11 still or did they change to B772ER? I remember 2 years ago, i almost missed my flight from DEL to AMS and it was an MD-11.

KL871/872 AMS DEL changes back to B772ER this winter, but is again scheduled with MD11 for next summer. A lot of airlines upgrade capacity to India during the busier winter season. Air France is once again changing from B772ER to B744 on CDG-DEL this winter as well.
 
WSOY
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RE: KLM MD-11 At SFO This Morning

Fri Oct 27, 2006 4:08 am

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 44):
Some of us here actually do work in airline operations and are involved in scheduling and network design. A larger fleet of identically configured airframes allows for higher utlization while retaining the stability of the operation because of increased availability of spare frames.

Some of me just wonder where these "spare" airframes are at any given moment, and why are they not making money to their owners like they are supposed to? Are the crew really just waiting somewhere ready to man an aircraft at a couple of hours' notice? Sounds not very likely to me. Sounds not very economical to me either. If some are doing it, no wonder if they're losing money.

I beg everyone's pardon, but I don't think an airframe knows whether it's a member of a larger fleet or not, and mysteriously improves its reliability accordingly. Some other factors than the fleet size matter.

[Edited 2006-10-26 21:12:21]
"Nukkuessa tulee nälkä" (Nipsu)
 
HB-IWC
Posts: 4033
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2000 1:09 am

RE: KLM MD-11 At SFO This Morning

Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:54 am

Quoting WSOY (Reply 47):
I beg everyone's pardon, but I don't think an airframe knows whether it's a member of a larger fleet or not, and mysteriously improves its reliability accordingly.

We are not talking about the performance of one individual aircraft here. It is the performance of the overall system which improves with increasing fleet size making the operation as a whole more stable and less prone to delays and operational irregularities. Although the techinical characteristics of one aircraft are identical, if this aircraft is part of a larger fleet of identically configured frames, the operation as a whole will perform better and passengers may firsthand notice that because there tend to be fewer long delays at homebase because of increased potential for aircraft swaps. All of these are really elementary concepts of logistic operations, but I guess I should have looked at your age range earlier before engaging in this discussion.

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