CF188A
Topic Author
Posts: 680
Joined: Sun May 07, 2006 12:27 am

Honda Aerospace: A Threat To Aviation?

Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:17 am

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1127670/L/

http://hondajet.honda.com/

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2006/10/19/025665.html

http://world.honda.com/news/2006/c061017HondaJetNBAA/

I have been thinking lately, could this prove beneficial for the aviation industry or a total disaster? In the past we have seen Honda spawn from a little egg to this enormous monster which dominates the world market in the automotive industry. Is it possible that Honda will do the same type of action but in the aviation world? Could it be possible this will start a chain reaction to other automotive corporations getting involved in aviation design? Wouldn't this on a realistic level, make aviation less appealing and interesting to the common person?. Please dont quote me in a negative manner , but who wants to see these little Honda jets flying around EVERYWHERE! They are reporting over 100 orders in three days! Couldn't this just spark ideas for other automotive cooperation's and possibly in the future change the uniqueness of aviation? I also posted a link which states it will take production in the United States in 2010!!! Could we see the end of Learjet, Cessna(citations), Gulfstream? I understand these are VERY fuel efficient, very revolutionary, but could this inflate aviation and create a jammed interstate / QEW / Motorway in the air?

Your inputs please

[Edited 2006-10-23 03:26:16]
Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die tomorrow~ RIP ... LJFM
 
bond007
Posts: 4423
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

RE: Honda Aerospace: A Threat To Aviation?

Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:20 am

Quoting CF188A (Thread starter):
but who wants to see these little Honda jets flying around EVERYWHERE!

Well, VLJs are here and Honda has little to do with it right now. Hundreds of Eclipses have been sold and it's now fully certified I believe.

Sure Honda may play a role in the future, but they have some catching up to do right now.


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
dz09
Posts: 360
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 1:20 am

RE: Honda Aerospace: A Threat To Aviation?

Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:25 am

I often wondered why the japanese did not get in the business of building airplanes. Were they, until recently, restricted from this field? they do, after all, have a long tradition in aviation, at least until WWII.
 
User avatar
falstaff
Posts: 5565
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 6:17 am

RE: Honda Aerospace: A Threat To Aviation?

Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:53 am

If Honda can build great cars, motorcycles, outboards, lawn mowers, etc, then they should be able to build a quality airplane.

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 1):
Sure Honda may play a role in the future, but they have some catching up to do right now

It took them a while to break into the car industry too. Their first cars were not all that great. But after a while they earned a great reputation. I agree they have a lot of catching up to do, but I bet they will catch up rather quickly.


I have a very tired 85 Accord. I drive it around when the weather is too bad for either of my two good cars. While they are safe in the garage, the Honda comes out (actually it is always out, It doesn't deserve the garage). It was free because the owner thought it was junk. $98 later it was back on the road. Everything works, including the A/C and power antenna. If they can build a plane like that they may give everyone a run for their money.
Big version: Width: 793 Height: 354 File size: 155kb
Very tired 85 Honda Accord
My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
 
CF188A
Topic Author
Posts: 680
Joined: Sun May 07, 2006 12:27 am

RE: Honda Aerospace: A Threat To Aviation?

Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:01 am

that thing is going to give me nightmares!
Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die tomorrow~ RIP ... LJFM
 
bond007
Posts: 4423
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

RE: Honda Aerospace: A Threat To Aviation?

Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:13 am

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 3):
Their first cars were not all that great. But after a while they earned a great reputation.

Right, but you cannot compare the 70's and 80's car industry to the 21st century aviation industry.

The Japanese cars win because of quality over price ...the quality of a Camry or Accord is second to none...but they don't win on price..a comparable Saturn is much cheaper. The aviation industry doesn't currently have a quality gap that needs filling...like the automobile industry did. Cessna have been making quality aircraft for decades, as have the other manufacturers. The VLJ business today is largely based on price...getting a small jet for one million bucks.

Time will tell....for Honda and the other VLJs.

Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
DLKAPA
Posts: 7962
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:37 am

RE: Honda Aerospace: A Threat To Aviation?

Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:22 am

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 1):
Hundreds of Eclipses have been sold and it's now fully certified I believe.

Nowhere near full certification. Actually the only certification it technically has is the FAA acknowledging that the Eclipse 500 can fly. It doesn't have certification above FL250 or flight into known icing among other things, and it's still a good 2 years away from full production. By comparison, their nearest compeditor, Adam Aircraft, is just about to have full certification completed with their A700 VLJ.
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
olympic707
Posts: 193
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2004 5:12 am

RE: Honda Aerospace: A Threat To Aviation?

Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:44 am

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 3):
If Honda can build great cars, motorcycles, outboards, lawn mowers, etc, then they should be able to build a quality airplane.

Honda products are overrated. When it comes to cars, and anything mechanical, German made products are #!. Good example: BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Porsche,
AIRBUS.

Yanni
Fly Olympic - Aviation GREEK STYLE!
 
CF188A
Topic Author
Posts: 680
Joined: Sun May 07, 2006 12:27 am

RE: Honda Aerospace: A Threat To Aviation?

Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:47 am

back to the topic at hand please !
Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die tomorrow~ RIP ... LJFM
 
SuseJ772
Posts: 654
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:13 am

RE: Honda Aerospace: A Threat To Aviation?

Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:02 pm

Quoting Olympic707 (Reply 7):
Honda products are overrated. When it comes to cars, and anything mechanical, German made products are #!. Good example: BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Porsche,

You have GOT TO BE KIDDING ME! You seriously think a German made car is better than a Honda (or Toyota) for that matter. My family has been a BMW family for 20+ years and a Honda family for 8 years. We have had one Honda CRV that I have personally driven (quite hard actually, I am a bit of a lead foot) for 187,000 miles and NEVER HAD A PROBLEM. Now that is quality. Our BMWs seem to break at least ever 20,000 miles (and this has been more than one BMW). Don't get me wrong, BMW are nice, super nice, but they don't have the quality.

I say ALL of this of course to say that I can't wait for Honda Jets...it is practically the reason I am pursuing my pilots license. If you can own one of these jets for under 2 million, and SUPER fuel efficent, with HONDA quality, MAN THAT'S EXCITING!
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
bond007
Posts: 4423
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

RE: Honda Aerospace: A Threat To Aviation?

Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:07 pm

Quoting Olympic707 (Reply 7):
BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Porsche,

You'd better check the JD Power ratings before you make such comments.

I've owned 3 Lexus's (Lexii ?) and now a Mercedes, and the difference in quality is huge and very clear (with Lexus being the clear leader by far).

The Merc looks good, and performance is fine ...but reliability no.

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 6):
By comparison, their nearest compeditor, Adam Aircraft, is just about to have full certification completed with their A700 VLJ.

Yes, but I guess the hype is with the numbers, and if you believe the Eclipse guys, they have orders for many more aircraft than Adam, and plan to produce around 4-5 times as many a year.

Like I said....early days yet...we'll see.


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
redflyer
Posts: 3881
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Honda Aerospace: A Threat To Aviation?

Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:22 pm

Quoting CF188A (Thread starter):
Wouldn't this on a realistic level, make aviation less appealing and interesting to the common person?.

Why? Isn't [more] competition a good thing?

Quoting CF188A (Thread starter):
Please dont quote me in a negative manner ,

Ok, I won't, but...

Quoting CF188A (Thread starter):
Couldn't this just spark ideas for other automotive cooperation's and possibly in the future change the uniqueness of aviation?

I can't help but wonder that you have issues when it comes to change.

Quoting Olympic707 (Reply 7):
When it comes to cars, and anything mechanical, German made products are #!. Good example: BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Porsche,
AIRBUS.

I'll give you Airbus, but I have to say, BMW, Mercedes, and Porsche are highly over-rated in my opinion.
My other home is a Piper Cherokee 180C
 
MD-90
Posts: 7835
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 12:45 pm

RE: Honda Aerospace: A Threat To Aviation?

Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:22 pm

Quoting DZ09 (Reply 2):
Were they, until recently, restricted from this field? they do, after all, have a long tradition in aviation, at least until WWII.

Japan does not have a long tradition in civil aviation. GA as we know it is severely restricted in Japan.

Honda does not pose a threat (yet) to the Gulfstreams and Cessnas of aviation, because they have a tremendous history of success and knowledge behind them, which Honda doesn't have (yet). I think it's great that Honda's selling an aircraft for the first time, especially since my school (Miss. State) and Honda partnered to develop the prototype for it.
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13730
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Honda Aerospace: A Threat To Aviation?

Mon Oct 23, 2006 1:44 pm

Honda does not dominate automotive sales around the world. The premise is faulty.

VW, Toyota, GM, Ford are the biggest.

Anyway, I don't really get the question.

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 3):
I drive it around when the weather is too bad for either of my two good cars.

I don't get people like you.

The "beater" owners. You drive an old car with poor braking, poor handling, etc. during the bad weather to protect your nice car. But it's during the bad weather when you NEED the modern features, including air bags, crumple zones, etc. The only accident I've ever had was in the snow, and if I was in your car, I would have been dead. You voluntarily drive a metal death trap during the highest risk weather, and are proud of it.

I don't get people like you...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
SJCRRPAX
Posts: 961
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:29 am

RE: Honda Aerospace: A Threat To Aviation?

Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:08 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 13):
Honda does not dominate automotive sales around the world. The premise is faulty.

 wave  Hi Ikramerica,

You need to ignore Honda lovers. They are brain washed at birth. I have never seen anything like it. I expect it on the car forums, but I was hoping I could have a break from it on an airline forum. No use to argue, just agree with them that hondas last 1,000,000,000 miles and never break down and out perform everything else on the road and cost less to purchase and have a far higher resale value and that way you can avoid a confrontation with the H people.

For the record the worlds largest car companies.

GM
Toyota
Ford
Renault-Nissan
Volkswagon
Damiler-Chrysler
Peugeot-Citron
Honda
Hundai (Sales about equal to Honda)
Fiat (Honda sales 1.5x bigger)
 
BandA
Posts: 318
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:34 am

RE: Honda Aerospace: A Threat To Aviation?

Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:08 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 13):
I don't get people like you.

The "beater" owners. You drive an old car with poor braking, poor handling, etc. during the bad weather to protect your nice car. But it's during the bad weather when you NEED the modern features, including air bags, crumple zones, etc. The only accident I've ever had was in the snow, and if I was in your car, I would have been dead. You voluntarily drive a metal death trap during the highest risk weather, and are proud of it.

I don't get people like you...

I agree, I used to be the same. Now I drive the heck out of any car I buy.

Regarding HondaJet's, they've got some catching up to do but already the engineers have done well and their partnership with GE has atleast some benefits. Time will tell. Afterall people really doubted honda cars at first but look at them now, keep in mind they are a very small company compared to the big 3 and the euro big players but they have done well.

and finally regarding the statement made earlier about german cars being more reliable than Honda/Toyota, based solely on personal experience and not on heresay I disagree, in our family we have an almost even mix or domestics, german and japanese cars... I would rate in terms of most relaible to the least reliable as

1) Lexus and Toyota (Though lexus has a far superior customer service than toyota),

2) Honda,

3) BMW,

4) GM TRUCK,

5) Mercedes,

6) AUDI

This is from personal experience from atleast the last 20 years with our oldest car being a 1992 Toyota Camry. Most of the BMW, MB and AUDIS (330, 540, 740iL, M6, E320, S600, A8, A6), are 1-5 years old while Lexus, Toyota and Honda cars between 1-20+ years old and GM Trucks being 3 and 5 years old.
"They [Terrorists] never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." - GWB
 
planemaker
Posts: 5411
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:53 pm

RE: Honda Aerospace: A Threat To Aviation?

Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:12 pm

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 6):
Nowhere near full certification. Actually the only certification it technically has is the FAA acknowledging that the Eclipse 500 can fly.

Eclipse Community Celebrates as Eclipse 500 Earns Full FAA Type Certification

http://www.eclipseaviation.com/index...oom&task=viewpr&id=1142&Itemid=348

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 6):
and it's still a good 2 years away from full production.

Eclipse spokesman Andrew Broom said 23 of the aircraft are in production in addition to two that already have rolled off the assembly line. He said the first delivery to a customer would take place in a matter of days.

Over the next few years, the company will aim on fulfilling more than 2,500 orders customers have placed for this jet,


http://www.eclipseaviation.com/index...ask=viewarticle&id=1145&Itemid=347

If what you say is true, then Eclipse is truly BS-ing.

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 6):
By comparison, their nearest compeditor, Adam Aircraft, is just about to have full certification completed with their A700 VLJ.

I would have said the Cessna Mustang that beat Eclipse to full type certificate.

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 12):
Japan does not have a long tradition in civil aviation.

Not nearly as extensive as the US but still fairly impressive nevertheless. Certainly their programs for Boeing and the 3 major engine manufacturers have been very successful.

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 12):
Honda does not pose a threat (yet) to the Gulfstreams and Cessnas of aviation, because they have a tremendous history of success and knowledge behind them, which Honda doesn't have (yet).

As was suggested in another thread... suppose another Japanese "car manufacturer" just happens to buy an existing player?
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
User avatar
falstaff
Posts: 5565
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 6:17 am

RE: Honda Aerospace: A Threat To Aviation?

Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:49 pm

Quoting Olympic707 (Reply 7):
German made products are #!. Good example: BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Porsche,

Mercedes-Benz are nice cars, I have one of those too. 240,000 miles and it still looks and runs great!
Big version: Width: 900 Height: 546 File size: 102kb
1980 Mercedes-Benz 300TD, Blue Water Ferry, in MI.
My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
 
Gr8Circle
Posts: 2378
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:44 am

RE: Honda Aerospace: A Threat To Aviation?

Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:56 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 13):
Honda does not dominate automotive sales around the world. The premise is faulty.

VW, Toyota, GM, Ford are the biggest.

GM and Ford dominate only in terms of numbers....thanks to their (now dwindling) US market.....in terms of quality, the Toyota's and Honda's of the world are head and shoulders above any American company.....
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 13761
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: Honda Aerospace: A Threat To Aviation?

Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:26 pm

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 18):
GM and Ford dominate only in terms of numbers....

As the old saying goes: eat shit - billions of flies can't be wrong!
Inspiration, move me brightly!
 
bond007
Posts: 4423
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

RE: Honda Aerospace: A Threat To Aviation?

Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:17 pm

Quoting Sjcrrpax (Reply 14):
You need to ignore Honda lovers. They are brain washed at birth. I have never seen anything like it. I expect it on the car forums, but I was hoping I could have a break from it on an airline forum. No use to argue, just agree with them that hondas last 1,000,000,000 miles and never break down and out perform everything else on the road and cost less to purchase and have a far higher resale value and that way you can avoid a confrontation with the H people.

Unfortunately, unlike the A vs B debate, there are very many reports/studies/ratings that prove the point that Japanese cars are far superior than most others when it comes to quality...and yes, true for resale value (although German cars the same). Actually nobody said they cost less to purchase, in fact I said they were more expensive than a comparable American car....hence not really what people are looking for in the aviation industry when comparing the two.

In business and VLJ jets, quality, which like it or not, is where the Japanese car makers have won over most others, is not really an issue. The reliability of small jets and engines is excellent...from all manufacturers, so it's not easy to bring a new model to the market just on quality. The VLJ market is based much on the price to the customer (with expected performance of course), and to compare with cars again, the Japanese actually charge more for their cars on average....so again, it's a tough world to compete in and very different from competing with GM, Ford etc. in the car markets.


Jimbo

[Edited 2006-10-23 15:19:43]
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
congaboy
Posts: 258
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2006 3:48 am

RE: Honda Aerospace: A Threat To Aviation?

Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:46 pm

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 12):
Honda does not pose a threat (yet) to the Gulfstreams and Cessnas of aviation, because they have a tremendous history of success and knowledge behind them, which Honda doesn't have (yet).



Quoting Bond007 (Reply 20):
The VLJ market is based much on the price to the customer

In the spirit in which "CF" started this thread, I believe Honda, and the VLJ manufacturers at large, are targeting a new niche market. It does not threaten GA, corporate, and luxury. It is after new market potential, admittedly at the expense, if anything, of the upper end of commercial aviation.

Honda, Eclipse, Adams, and others seem to want to sell jet aircraft for primarily air taxi. They can certainly serve a second-tier corporate market as well, but the biz traveller who wants to fly from local airport to local airport for a slight premium in cost is the sweet spot...and when someone finds the right biz plan using these jets, I predict this will be rather popular.
"Joey, you like movies about gladiators?"
 
olympic707
Posts: 193
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2004 5:12 am

RE: Honda Aerospace: A Threat To Aviation?

Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:21 pm

Quoting SuseJ772 (Reply 9):

You have GOT TO BE KIDDING ME! You seriously think a German made car is better than a Honda (or Toyota) for that matter. My family has been a BMW family for 20+ years and a Honda family for 8 years. We have had one Honda CRV that I have personally driven (quite hard actually, I am a bit of a lead foot) for 187,000 miles and NEVER HAD A PROBLEM. Now that is quality. Our BMWs seem to break at least ever 20,000 miles (and this has been more than one BMW). Don't get me wrong, BMW are nice, super nice, but they don't have the quality.

Look at my profile under "occupation" it says TECHNICIAN. I worked on all cars. I don't think German cars are better I know they are built and engineered better. I owned a Bimmer with 250,000 hard trouble free miles, and will blow the doors off any Honda.  yes 

Yanni
Fly Olympic - Aviation GREEK STYLE!
 
olympic707
Posts: 193
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2004 5:12 am

RE: Honda Aerospace: A Threat To Aviation?

Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:29 pm

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 17):

Mercedes-Benz are nice cars, I have one of those too. 240,000 miles and it still looks and runs great! 1980 Mercedes-Benz 300TD, Blue Water Ferry, in MI.

Nice Benz! And no rust like those Hondas, Toyotas, etc.

How many 1980's Accords and Civics you see still on the road?

I don't think that Honda jet will be successful. Too much competition in the biz jet market.

Yanni
Fly Olympic - Aviation GREEK STYLE!
 
olympic707
Posts: 193
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2004 5:12 am

RE: Honda Aerospace: A Threat To Aviation?

Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:36 pm

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 10):

You'd better check the JD Power ratings before you make such comments.

I could care less what JD power says. They are "brain washed" like the rest of the Honda lovers.

Yanni
Fly Olympic - Aviation GREEK STYLE!
 
eatmybologna
Posts: 375
Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 3:21 am

RE: Honda Aerospace: A Threat To Aviation?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:05 am

Quoting Olympic707 (Reply 22):
and will blow the doors off any Honda.

Will it blow the doors off this?
Big version: Width: 400 Height: 210 File size: 246kb


[Edited 2006-10-23 17:05:49]
Isn't knowledge more than just the acquisition of information? Shouldn't the acquired information be correct?
 
bond007
Posts: 4423
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

RE: Honda Aerospace: A Threat To Aviation?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:22 am

Quoting Olympic707 (Reply 22):
I worked on all cars. I don't think German cars are better I know they are built and engineered better. I owned a Bimmer with 250,000 hard trouble free miles, and will blow the doors off any Honda.

Stories and anecdotes about the car you owned really don't 'prove' anything (even though I did it myself  Smile).

Like I said, you might not like studies and ratings, perhaps because they disagree with your view and are based on more than "I had a Bimmer...", or "I had a Honda..."

"Toyota ranks highest in overall customer satisfaction in Germany for the fourth consecutive year"

...and that's in Germany !

Now 'better' is very subjective of course (I love the look of my Merc), but we were talking about quality and reliability, and you'd not find too many reports where Japanese cars don't come top every time.




Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
User avatar
N328KF
Posts: 5807
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 3:50 am

RE: Honda Aerospace: A Threat To Aviation?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:23 am

Quoting Olympic707 (Reply 23):
Nice Benz! And no rust like those Hondas, Toyotas, etc.

The Germans use a different grade of steel. That's why it's rare to see rusted German cars. I could never figure out why more manufacturers didn't use that same type.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
CF188A
Topic Author
Posts: 680
Joined: Sun May 07, 2006 12:27 am

RE: Honda Aerospace: A Threat To Aviation?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:36 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 11):
Why? Isn't [more] competition a good thing?

Competition is a good thing to an EXTENT. If flight bookings begin to have 1 year waiting lists due to time restraints / take off times at airports because the runways and taxiways are jammed with GA traffic because Honda, Toyota, etc have made it so easy to pursue..... then we will have a problem. I understand there is enough delay as it is at some airports. Just recently here in Ontario, a small air taxi group is now purchasing these Honda jets and plans to run a YHM to YYZ service daily ....! Flying just wouldn't be an unique, like I dont know many who want to be pilots, and those who have the passion share a unique bond with others. If everyone one day could fly it wouldn't be as unique as it is now. You could consider it possibly being like a taxi driver. I dont mean to sound bias / start an argument over nothing ... I understand change will happen whether we like it or not . As for me, I just hope aviation remains as it is for my lifetime.

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 11):
I can't help but wonder that you have issues when it comes to change.

Yes, indeed. With aviation i HATE change. You have people in flying colleges around the world wanting to do it because they thing its cool. You have people just walking around saying they want to be fighter pilots because their ego is larger than some other things. i DO HAVE A PROBLEM with change when it comes to this hobby. I personally cannot see how it is changing for the better. Obviously though we have to make the best out of what we have given the changes which can and will occur in the future.

Quoting Congaboy (Reply 21):

In the spirit in which "CF" started this thread, I believe Honda, and the VLJ manufacturers at large, are targeting a new niche market. It does not threaten GA, corporate, and luxury. It is after new market potential, admittedly at the expense, if anything, of the upper end of commercial aviation

Thank you for being like 1 of three who stayed on topic and keeping to the topic at hand Smile

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 12):
Japan does not have a long tradition in civil aviation. GA as we know it is severely restricted in Japan.

Honda does not pose a threat (yet) to the Gulfstreams and Cessna's of aviation, because they have a tremendous history of success and knowledge behind them, which Honda doesn't have (yet). I think it's great that Honda's selling an aircraft for the first time, especially since my school (Miss. State) and Honda partnered to develop the prototype for it.

This could very well turn out to be a good thing . I am just curious on possible problems as well benefits that may occur as a result of this. Aviation is booming... for better or for worse...? lets let the future decide Smile
Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die tomorrow~ RIP ... LJFM
 
bond007
Posts: 4423
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

RE: Honda Aerospace: A Threat To Aviation?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:46 am

Quoting CF188A (Reply 28):
I personally cannot see how it is changing for the better.

OK, but the reasons you think that are?? Because flying is no longer unique? It's not as cool anymore to be a pilot?

It might not be cool to you, but these VLJs have the very latest in technology, including manufacturing techniques, avionics, engine etc. The progress made in engine design is remarkable, and one might argue this wouldn't have happened if not for VLJs, and perhaps the Cessna CJs.

IMO although VLJs may change the face of aviation (I think not ...we'll see), it can be nothing but good for the future of the industry. There will be more aviation jobs, yes more pilots needed, and more expertise and bigger workforce required in manufacturing.

Will there be ATC issues, maybe, but I think that's being blown out of proportion, as is the case with "in 5 years time we'll have 10 thousand VLJs in the skies".

IMO this isn't as huge a change as some may want us to believe. You'll still need 1.5 million bucks to own one of these...and everything that goes with it.


Jimbo

Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
User avatar
tjwgrr
Posts: 1988
Joined: Fri Mar 24, 2000 4:09 am

RE: Honda Aerospace: A Threat To Aviation?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:01 am

Quoting CF188A (Thread starter):
Honda spawn from a little egg to this enormous monster which dominates the world market in the automotive industry.

And that would be a bad thing like what happened to the automotive industry? We all drive higher quality cars today thanks to competition from Honda, Toyota & Nissan in the 70's which forced the domestic automotive industry to improve their quality and become more creative with their product development. Let the consumer decide what the best product is for the price......

I'm proud to say I drive an American built Acura- built by American non-union workers in Marysville, Ohio. NO, all the parts don't come from Japan- my car is 80% domestic content.....and NO all the profits don't go back to Japan- Honda is investing $550 million for a new plant in Greensburg, Indiana. Honda will then have over $9 billion in domestic capital investment.
Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
 
SJCRRPAX
Posts: 961
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:29 am

RE: Honda Aerospace: A Threat To Aviation?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:36 am

I hate to break this to you Honda lovers, but if the Japanese make a commercial airliner of significance Honda will most likely not be involved. The three lead compaines would be, Fuji Heavy Industries (FHI), Kawasaki Heavy Industries (KHI) and Mitsubishi Heavy Industries (MHI). FHI builds the center wingbox of the B787, the gear wheel is being built by KHI, and MHI is building the main wing BOX. Altogether these three companies build about 35% of the 787, which is another reason Airbus will have a real tough time making Japanese sales. Also, quite a few people in Japan still do not like Honda. The Japanese government did not approve of Honda building cars orginally, and I think bitter feelings still exist. If a fourth company joins those three it would be Toyota, and Sony would be fifth partner for the entertainment systems. Honda would be left out.
 
Gr8Circle
Posts: 2378
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:44 am

RE: Honda Aerospace: A Threat To Aviation?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:37 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 19):
As the old saying goes: eat shit - billions of flies can't be wrong!

Read the market reports and JD Powers surveys, buddy....you'll know who's right and who's wrong.....and please take a lesson in 'good language'....
 
planemaker
Posts: 5411
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:53 pm

RE: Honda Aerospace: A Threat To Aviation?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:54 am

Quoting CF188A (Reply 28):
With aviation i HATE change.

i DO HAVE A PROBLEM with change when it comes to this hobby. I personally cannot see how it is changing for the better.

WARNING: Watching this NASA video will cause feelings of hate!  Wink

http://sats.larc.nasa.gov/downloads/SATS_Vision.mov

You can get ill watching more movies at this site...

http://www.ncam-sats.org/movies.htm

Joking aside... the following link is to a very interesting NASA presentation on 21st Century Air Travel: Life After Airliners...

http://sats.larc.nasa.gov/Life_After_Airliners_VI.pdf
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
olympic707
Posts: 193
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2004 5:12 am

RE: Honda Aerospace: A Threat To Aviation?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:56 am

Quoting Eatmybologna (Reply 25):
Will it blow the doors off this?

What's "this"? Looks like a piece of crap.

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 26):
Stories and anecdotes about the car you owned really don't 'prove' anything (even though I did it myself  ).

Like I said, you might not like studies and ratings, perhaps because they disagree with your view and are based on more than "I had a Bimmer...", or "I had a Honda..."

Not all studies and ratings are correct.
I still own a Bimmer. I'm ready for another one.

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 26):
"Toyota ranks highest in overall customer satisfaction in Germany for the fourth consecutive year"

...and that's in Germany !

Your joking right?  rotfl 

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 26):
Now 'better' is very subjective of course (I love the look of my Merc), but we were talking about quality and reliability, and you'd not find too many reports where Japanese cars don't come top every time.

Why did you buy a M-B? It has to be more than just looks. Otherwise you would bought a Honda, etc. You know that the M-B is a better all around car.

Quoting N328KF (Reply 27):

The Germans use a different grade of steel. That's why it's rare to see rusted German cars. I could never figure out why more manufacturers didn't use that same type.

Exactly. Better metal, better engineering.
This Honda jet has not flown yet, but just because it is made by Honda it has to be good.
Get real.

Yanni
Fly Olympic - Aviation GREEK STYLE!
 
bond007
Posts: 4423
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

RE: Honda Aerospace: A Threat To Aviation?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:38 am

Quoting Olympic707 (Reply 34):
Your joking right?

No, that's why we keep saying to read the studies and facts rather than quoting personal preferences. It's obvious tens of thousands of people love Mercedes otherwise they wouldn't sell them. Are they better quality and more reliable than Japanese cars...the facts say not.

There are many reasons for buying a car ...some are tangible, many are not. With aircraft it's very different. An aircraft is chosen less for the fact that it's a Cessna (although that does exist), but more for the performance, price and service.

Quoting Olympic707 (Reply 34):
Why did you buy a M-B? It has to be more than just looks. Otherwise you would bought a Honda, etc. You know that the M-B is a better all round car.

IMO (and the studies) it's not 'a better all round car' ....it's extremely stylish, has a nice engine, nice sound system, but I'm probably going to buy a Lexus next time. I didn't like the look of the old LS430 shape (new one wasn't out then), and of course the 'look' is a big factor with a car. It's been in the shop 3 times since March!

I actually didn't do all my homework. I 'assumed', like some here, that the reliability was awesome, but when I checked the ratings, that wasn't the case.


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
planemaker
Posts: 5411
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:53 pm

RE: Honda Aerospace: A Threat To Aviation?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:11 am

Quoting Olympic707 (Reply 34):
This Honda jet has not flown yet, but just because it is made by Honda it has to be good.
Get real.

Please, try to know something about the thread before you post. This post is littered with links to the HondaJet in flight.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
CF188A
Topic Author
Posts: 680
Joined: Sun May 07, 2006 12:27 am

RE: Honda Aerospace: A Threat To Aviation?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:55 am

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 29):
It might not be cool to you, but these VLJs have the very latest in technology, including manufacturing techniques, avionics, engine etc. The progress made in engine design is remarkable, and one might argue this wouldn't have happened if not for VLJs, and perhaps the Cessna CJs.

The point of the thread was to create a discussion so please do not make it personal. Now does over productions / bringing more public make aviation that much less unique... I think it does. However by the time I'm long retired there will be a noticeable change. I personally think being a pilot is the best job in the world and nobody can really ever change my mind on that.

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 33):
Watching this NASA video will cause feelings of hate!

space in my books is 85 plus thousand feet. Not 370 across the Atlantic in an old classy 747. If you can introduce space travel around the globe then hell im up for it Smile
Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die tomorrow~ RIP ... LJFM
 
bond007
Posts: 4423
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

RE: Honda Aerospace: A Threat To Aviation?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:05 am

Quoting CF188A (Reply 37):
The point of the thread was to create a discussion so please do not make it personal.

Sorry, didn't mean to, but after all you did say one of the reasons you thought Honda was a threat was because you thought they'd be so many planes and pilots, it just wouldn't be cool anymore. It's hard not to be personal when you start the thread with your own personal opinions that some may or may not agree with  Wink

Quoting CF188A (Reply 37):
Now does over productions / bringing more public make aviation that much less unique... I think it does.

Not sure what you mean by 'over productions'. Sure, there might be a lot of VLJs being produced, but there are around 50-60 THOUSAND flights a day (just IFR not VFR GA) in the USA. How much percentage wise, will VLJs affect this? A few hundred VLJs produced a year, times a few flights/day...maybe a few percent increase that's all in the first few years. It's not like the volume change is going to be huge.


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
planemaker
Posts: 5411
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:53 pm

RE: Honda Aerospace: A Threat To Aviation?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:25 am

Quoting CF188A (Reply 37):
space in my books is 85 plus thousand feet. Not 370 across the Atlantic in an old classy 747. If you can introduce space travel around the globe then hell im up for it

CF188A,

Awww, you obviously didn't look at ANY of the videos!!!!! Nor the presentation.

They have NOTHING to do with 85k+ altitude travel and EVERYTHING to do with VLJs of the future!

P.S. Spell out NASA... and, BTW, the first "A" in NASA isn't "atmosphere".  Wink
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
727200er
Posts: 301
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 5:18 pm

RE: Honda Aerospace: A Threat To Aviation?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:29 am

I wish Honda (or Toyota) would build a GA piston engine. 5000 hr TBOs anyone?

 Smile
"they who dream by day are cognizant of many things which escape those who dream only at night" - Edgar Allen Poe
 
SuseJ772
Posts: 654
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:13 am

RE: Honda Aerospace: A Threat To Aviation?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:32 am

Quoting Sjcrrpax (Reply 14):
You need to ignore Honda lovers. They are brain washed at birth. I have never seen anything like it. I expect it on the car forums, but I was hoping I could have a break from it on an airline forum. No use to argue, just agree with them that hondas last 1,000,000,000 miles and never break down and out perform everything else on the road and cost less to purchase and have a far higher resale value and that way you can avoid a confrontation with the H people.

You crack me up. Yeah, we are a violent group sometimes  Smile

Quoting Olympic707 (Reply 22):
Look at my profile under "occupation" it says TECHNICIAN. I worked on all cars. I don't think German cars are better I know they are built and engineered better. I owned a Bimmer with 250,000 hard trouble free miles, and will blow the doors off any Honda.

That's amazing. You are the first person (out of probably 20) that I have talked with about the fact their BMW has gone 50,000 miles with out a problem, let alone 250,000. That's great.

Back to point. The sucess of the VLJs isn't going to be based on "quality" or "dependability" (after all, if your plane falls apart, you have more to worry about than a $2,000 mechanics bill). They are going to be sold on speed and range when compared to other SIMILARLY priced planes (so don't go quoting me the speed and range of a G5 since from what I have heard they cost about $40,000,000). In the end, people will buy this because they like the idea of getting a 1700 mi range plane, that can fly at 400 kts for $1-2 million.

I think the "problems" that may arise due to the increased air traffic will solve themselves. Even IF it gets to that point, you will start to see higher landing fees at large, commercial airports, to deter flights from landing there. Keep in mind, most of us who are considering buying one of these planes are doing so to AVOID places like ATL, LAX, ORD. The last thing we want to do is fly right back in there.
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
virgin747
Posts: 289
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 1999 12:20 am

RE: Honda Aerospace: A Threat To Aviation?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:00 am

I havent read this thread.... I just wanted to comment on the title for this thread.... Whoever though of that has to be crazy..... come on lets be reasonable with manufactures popping out new planes every year.... aviation isnt dead.... hey the A380 has been around... is aviation dead yet? Nope... Boeing responded by offering planes to counter it..... So if this honda jet thing takes off.... i'm sure Lear and the other folks will counter... So in the mean time... cool your jets buddy....
 
ThePRGuy
Posts: 1833
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:07 am

RE: Honda Aerospace: A Threat To Aviation?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:21 am

Quoting Olympic707 (Reply 7):
Honda products are overrated.

Did you know that NOT ONE v-tech civic engine has ever been returned as faulty or malfunctioning?
Thats a fact.
Thanks
Alex
Heathrow has been described as the only building site to have its own airport.
 
sccutler
Posts: 5556
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 12:16 pm

RE: Honda Aerospace: A Threat To Aviation?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:55 am

Quoting 727200er (Reply 40):
I wish Honda (or Toyota) would build a GA piston engine. 5000 hr TBOs anyone?

You're dreaming.

The reason you find so little changing in the aviation engine designs, is that hey are awfully good as it is. Remember when Porsche was going to revolutionize aviation engines? Are there even any airworthy Porsche engines left in Mooney PFMs?

Honda will likely be a viable competitor in their market space, but they are unlikely to revolutionize anything. Indeed, it is significant that, when they wanted to look at designing an airplane for possible production, they came to the US for the engineering and design work to be done.

And, by the way, for those who proclaim that US auto makers cannot build decent cars, well, bias can blind the truth. From J. D. Powers, generally-acknowledged source for such information (and note, quite a few US nameplates there...):

2005 Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS) : Awardees

Award Recipient
Most Dependable Compact Car Chevrolet Prizm
Most Dependable Entry Luxury Car Ford Thunderbird
Most Dependable Entry Luxury Sport Utility Vehicle Lexus RX 300
Most Dependable Entry Midsize Car Chevrolet Malibu
Most Dependable Entry Sport Utility Vehicle Honda CR-V
Most Dependable Full Size Car Buick LeSabre
Most Dependable Full-Size Sport Utility Vehicle GMC Yukon/Yukon XL
Most Dependable Full-Size Van Ford E-Series
Most Dependable Heavy-Duty Full-Size Pickup Chevrolet Silverado HD
Most Dependable Light-Duty Full-Size Pickup Cadillac Escalade EXT
Most Dependable Midsize Luxury Car Lincoln Town Car
Most Dependable Midsize Pickup Chevrolet S-10 Pickup
Most Dependable Midsize Sport Utility Vehicle Toyota 4Runner
Most Dependable Midsize Van Ford Windstar
Most Dependable Premium Luxury Car Lexus LS 430
Most Dependable Premium Luxury Sport Utility Vehicle Lexus LX 470
Most Dependable Premium Midsize Car Buick Century
Most Dependable Premium Sports Car Porsche 911
Most Dependable Sporty Car Mazda Miata
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
irobertson
Posts: 409
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2006 11:35 am

RE: Honda Aerospace: A Threat To Aviation?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:01 am

Is this an aviation thread or a car thread??!  Wink

I can see it now, we'll go from A vs B wars to Honda vs Eclipse. Has anyone mentioned Embraer's slick little jet or is that too big for this category?
 
SuseJ772
Posts: 654
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:13 am

RE: Honda Aerospace: A Threat To Aviation?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:08 am

Quoting Irobertson (Reply 45):
Is this an aviation thread or a car thread??!

I knew someone would say that sooner or later.

Quoting Irobertson (Reply 45):
I can see it now, we'll go from A vs B wars to Honda vs Eclipse. Has anyone mentioned Embraer's slick little jet or is that too big for this category?

I haven't heard much about Embraer's jet. Is it a VLJ? Although this brings up a good question, how do you define a VLJ? I know the highlights of the Eclipse and Honda is that it is a 5 or 6 passanger jet, that cost under 2 million, that has a 1700 mile range, and is very fuel efficent. Those are kind of "relative" qualifications. But we know that Citations and Gulfstreams aren't under 2 mil, and while they have better range, my understanding is that they aren't as fuel efficent. So...all that to say is, I don't know if the Embraer's qualify or not.
Currently at PIE, requesting FWA >> >>
 
bond007
Posts: 4423
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

RE: Honda Aerospace: A Threat To Aviation?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:16 am

Quoting SCCutler (Reply 44):
From J. D. Powers, generally-acknowledged source for such information (and note, quite a few US nameplates there...):

...and apart from Porsche, the next German manufacturer, BMW is #11 on the overall list, Mercedes #28, with Audi and VW even lower!

From the Initial Quality Study.. a JD Power 2006 similar study on initial car problems:

"Honda also maintains its position as a quality leader. Although Honda does not receive any awards outright, five Honda models rank among the top three of their respective segments."

"Toyota remains a quality benchmark, capturing five model-level awards—for the Corolla, Solara, Camry, Highlander and Sequoia—more than any other non-luxury brand."

"Lexus and Toyota models continue to dominate initial quality rankings, capturing 11 out of 19 segment awards in 2006. Lexus models rank highest in every segment in which they compete. "

...and just to be fair, the Porsche Cayman gets excellent results, but Mercedes, Audi, BMW are again at the bottom half of the lists.





Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
User avatar
N328KF
Posts: 5807
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 3:50 am

RE: Honda Aerospace: A Threat To Aviation?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:29 am

Quoting 727200er (Reply 40):
I wish Honda (or Toyota) would build a GA piston engine. 5000 hr TBOs anyone?

The aerospace firms are more driven by engineering and performance than by marketing and consumer flash. It's a different philosophy and it's one where engine performance and mileage are mission critical.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_TAA-1
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Crew
Posts: 11747
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: Honda Aerospace: A Threat To Aviation?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:43 am

Honda has an interesting product:

From the 3rd link:

Quote:
onda Aircraft Company today announced that it received well over 100 individual customer orders with deposits for the $3.65 million HondaJet during the National Business Aviation Association (NBAA) convention in Orlando, Florida.

So now they oficially have their foot in the door. Will their first aircraft have honda car reliability? Maybe. They've learned something about testing. I wonder if Honda will do a extra-long series of flight tests to prove the aircraft. Oh, wait, they already have!  bigthumbsup  They've been flying the aircraft for a while before seeking type certification! Might they have debugged it a bit?  scratchchin 

Quoting SuseJ772 (Reply 9):
Our BMWs seem to break at least ever 20,000 miles (and this has been more than one BMW).

Unfortunately true. My first two cars were Japanese and took abuse like nothing else. My BMW? In the shop at least once a year for an expensive repair. Its never been anything major, but I've spent more on the darn "window regulators" than a Honda transmission would have cost me. (I've switched mechanics too.)

My mechanics shop is loaded with Porches needing new engines. You do know about the non-turbo's tendency to throw a crank bearing, don't you?

And don't get me on MB quality since that union contract was signed that prohibs firing incompetents... You can correlate the problems per car by how many days has it been since that stupid contract was signed.

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 17):
Mercedes-Benz are nice cars, I have one of those too. 240,000 miles and it still looks and runs great!

The old diesels last forever! Great cars. But the new ones spend far too much time in the shop.

Quoting SuseJ772 (Reply 41):
That's amazing. You are the first person (out of probably 20) that I have talked with about the fact their BMW has gone 50,000 miles with out a problem, let alone 250,000. That's great.

Me too. I love my BMW, but the MX costs hurt.

Quoting SuseJ772 (Reply 41):
Back to point. The sucess of the VLJs isn't going to be based on "quality" or "dependability" (after all, if your plane falls apart, you have more to worry about than a $2,000 mechanics bill). They are going to be sold on speed and range when compared to other SIMILARLY priced planes (so don't go quoting me the speed and range of a G5 since from what I have heard they cost about $40,000,000). In the end, people will buy this because they like the idea of getting a 1700 mi range plane, that can fly at 400 kts for $1-2 million.

Actually, plane down time is a significant cost for the fractional fleets. Planes don't tend to "fall out of the sky." But some aircraft are known to need MX work almost every night (as in two mecanics, one full shift) and some just need the specified RON.

I'm curious how the Embraer Phenom, Adam A700, Eclipse 500, Cesna Mustang, and Hondajet do in the VLJ market. Call me a spoilsport, but I think that is two too many. So who will be the winners?

Will the Pratt's be the safe bet? Will Honda's first engine make it a winner? Will Adam sticking with the williams engine provide the "time to market" advantage needed to become estabilished?

The eclipse has the lowest price, but there is a range niche... The Adam has more range. But the Phenom & Mustang have just a little more range and the Hondajet a fraction more. Personally, it looks like the Honda design has the most capacity to grow the range... but that's my best guess (pure speculation).

Quoting SuseJ772 (Reply 41):
I think the "problems" that may arise due to the increased air traffic will solve themselves.

 checkmark  Most are just engineering problems. The added fees from the added flights will just pay for more engineers.  bigthumbsup  I hope to see GPS based flight control, soon!

Quoting SuseJ772 (Reply 41):
Keep in mind, most of us who are considering buying one of these planes are doing so to AVOID places like ATL, LAX, ORD.

Dude, you are in a high socio-economic group than I. I hope to just engineer neat stuff!  Wink But I agree, why go to LAX when LGB, BUR, Van Nuys, SNA, Hawthorne, Compton, Santa Monica (ok, its impacted...) and others are available!  hyper  Heck, these jets could even use Torrance (note, no Jet-A sales there... to it would be tankering flights).

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 388crazy, 817Dreamliiner, aflyingkiwi, Baidu [Spider], Bing [Bot], Dutchy, eidvm, Gemuser, Google [Bot], iahcsr, NZdsgnr, PanHAM, qfflyer, RohanDXB, Someone83, SXDFC, tomofutah, UAEflyer, UAinAUS, xiaotung and 216 guests