leelaw
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Emirates Questions Boeing's 748I Stretch Decision

Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:57 pm

24 October 2006:

...Emirates would prefer Boeing to build the shorter, longer-range variant it originally proposed.

...We have made it clear to Boeing that we prefer the [original] stretch because of its greater range at maximum payload," he [Tim Clark] says, adding that he has suggested to Boeing that it should consider building both versions "to increase the product spread within the family..."

...Boeing does not rule out studies of auxiliary fuel versions for range-challenged carriers, but says "right now the focus is on how to get the lowest operating costs and the best economics while fulfilling a normal range of 8000nm..."


Looks like Mr. Clark is looking for Los Angeles/Dubai "with a meaningful payload."

Additionally, FI reports that Boeing's original delivery schedule has slipped: final configuration of the 747-8I is due to be frozen in mid-2007, with initial deliveries in mid-to-late 2010, rather than April 2010, thought the 748F remains on track for the first delivery in October 2009.
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scouseflyer
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RE: Emirates Questions Boeing's 748I Stretch Decision

Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:01 pm

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
Additionally, FI reports that Boeing's original delivery schedule has slipped: final configuration of the 747-8I is due to be frozen in mid-2007, with initial deliveries in mid-to-late 2010, rather than April 2010, thought the 748F remains on track for the first delivery in October 2009.

Pretty accademic realy as there's currently going to only be one plane (the Qatari government) delivered.

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
he [Tim Clark] says, adding that he has suggested to Boeing that it should consider building both versions "to increase the product spread within the family..."

Someone needs to order the India version before they consider offerring it in two versions.
 
bringiton
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RE: Emirates Questions Boeing's 748I Stretch Decision

Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:16 pm

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 1):
he [Tim Clark] says, adding that he has suggested to Boeing that it should consider building both versions "to increase the product spread within the family..."

Very wishful thinking indeed on his part . I guess boeing has gone in with a configuration which according to them and their clients appeals to the widest possible market . The I isnt going to sell in huge no.s anyways so making 2 versions is pretty much out of the window . making the strech adds savings as the aircraft increases commonality with the F version which will be the real money maker for boeing !!
 
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keesje
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RE: Emirates Questions Boeing's 748I Stretch Decision

Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:01 am

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
FI reports that Boeing's original delivery schedule has slipped


"Will 747-8i be further delayed?"

"Boeing forced to delay the ailing 747-8i program after critics":

"Clark : 747-8i simply too long!! "

"Will Boeing 747-8i delay influence the 787?"

"New 747 delayed, Turn of fortunes for Boeing?"

just jooking..
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airfrnt
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RE: Emirates Questions Boeing's 748I Stretch Decision

Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:08 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 3):
just jooking..

Or wishful thinking.

Clark is the most exposed of all of the Airline CEOs to problems with the A380 since his company has more then 40% of the backorders for the platform. Anything that competes with that from his point of view, or that gives his competitors a CASM advantage is going to be a threat from his point of view.

Not that I think there is much of a market for either the 747-8i or the A380 in the first place.
 
sparkingwave
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RE: Emirates Questions Boeing's 748I Stretch Decision

Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:11 am

Suspiciously, this sounds like posturing by EK to gain more leverage against Airbus and the A380.

After all, why is it that EK is so gung-ho about the A380 and its max. passenger count, and yet when it comes to the 747-8, it shifts gears and goes for range over pax?

Let EK put its money where its mouth is and actually offer orders instead of just making things "clear" to Boeing. An order for, perhaps, 43 of the original sized 747-8s?  Wink

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RE: Emirates Questions Boeing's 748I Stretch Decision

Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:14 am

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
...Emirates would prefer Boeing to build the shorter, longer-range variant it originally proposed.

Then they should have ordered it while it was offered.
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RE: Emirates Questions Boeing's 748I Stretch Decision

Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:16 am

Quoting Mdorbust (Reply 6):
Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
...Emirates would prefer Boeing to build the shorter, longer-range variant it originally proposed.

Then they should have ordered it while it was offered.

Good point. Makes the current comments from Emirates ring hollow.....
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eatmybologna
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RE: Emirates Questions Boeing's 748I Stretch Decision

Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:20 am

Quoting Mdorbust (Reply 6):
Then they should have ordered it while it was offered.

But the design has yet to be frozen. Would competant airline management do this?
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Stitch
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RE: Emirates Questions Boeing's 748I Stretch Decision

Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:27 am

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 1):
Pretty academic really as there's currently going to only be one plane (the Qatari government) delivered.

At least three, actually.  Smile

Quoting Keesje (Reply 3):
...

Touché.  Silly

Quoting Eatmybologna (Reply 8):
But the design has yet to be frozen. Would competent airline management do this?

Boeing is going to build the version that has the most interest. If EK is the only one of the 25 (?) airlines said to be "interested" in the 748I that desires the one with more range then payload, unless he's ready to order a few dozen (or score), Boeing is going to tailor the model to the "majority opinion".
 
Johnny
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RE: Emirates Questions Boeing's 748I Stretch Decision

Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:29 am

Three years after the EIS of the A388 - for a derivative of a late 1960s design.

WHY ?!?!?
 
leelaw
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RE: Emirates Questions Boeing's 748I Stretch Decision

Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:30 am

Quoting SparkingWave (Reply 5):
Let EK put its money where its mouth is and actually offer orders instead of just making things "clear" to Boeing. An order for, perhaps, 43 of the original sized 747-8s?

EK has made a significant firm order for 748Fs, hasn't Mr. Clark earned the right to publicly comment on his preferences for the nascent 748I.
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NYC777
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RE: Emirates Questions Boeing's 748I Stretch Decision

Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:30 am

It's so funny..Clark demands all these custom made planes from Boeing (787-10, 747-8I) yet he has to pull he trigge. If he wants to buy the 747-8 then he should have bouht the version that Boeing originally offered when it was out there. Now he's saying Boeinghas to spend money to build two verisons for a niche market. Just this guy has to learn that it's not that easy to spend other people's money.

When he buys 100 787s then he could talk to Boeing about the 748I (original. Till then he's stuck with the A3late80.
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Stitch
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RE: Emirates Questions Boeing's 748I Stretch Decision

Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:42 am

Quoting Johnny (Reply 10):
Three years after the EIS of the A388 - for a derivative of a late 1960s design. WHY?!?!?

Because it's a great freighter that is selling strongly and there is a potential market in the hundreds for it, even though it will compete against the A388, A350, A340, 787 and 777 in that market.

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 11):
EK has made a significant firm order for 748Fs, hasn't Mr. Clark earned the right to publicly comment on his preferences for the nascent 748I.

Yes he has, but just like all the airlines and lessors that carped about the A350 not being "right", he should step-up and buy it if he wants it.

And that he wants range more then payload makes it seem likely to me that EK will be more likely to not buy the 748I as a hedge to the A380. It may be he desires more capacity and range then his 773ER fleet can provide him to open up some high-traffic routes that are not "A380-ready".
 
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RE: Emirates Questions Boeing's 748I Stretch Decision

Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:48 am

@ Stitch
"Because it's a great freighter that is selling strongly and there is a potential market in the hundreds for it, even though it will compete against the A388, A350, A340, 787 and 777 in that market."

That is the reason for the delay? Strange - they must feel very confident to secure a huge part of the market with the B748I.

Johnny
 
ikramerica
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RE: Emirates Questions Boeing's 748I Stretch Decision

Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:49 am

Here's the thing.

Clark has the right to say what he wants.

But When proposed, Boeing offered a 450 seat jet with 8000nm range. The range only increased due to aerodynamics, to 8300nm, and that didn't lead to one firm order.

Now it's a 465 seat jet with 8000nm range.

They are offering the same performance as before, but with a bigger jet. This has always been EK's mantra. Size, size, size.

8000nm is the same range as the A388, and the original range offered.

While I still think they should be offering a 747-7i at 410 seats as well, Boeing seems to have target customers for the 748i and EK was not part of the group. Now maybe if EK were to cancel 25 A380s and order 30 748is, they'd change their mind?
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travelin man
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RE: Emirates Questions Boeing's 748I Stretch Decision

Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:53 am

I thought when Boeing made the decision to stretch the 748i, they said they were "listening to the airlines" and responding to their requirements. Did "airlines" they listened to in this instance not include EK? That would seem very strange to me.

Unless, Boeing were responding to specific airline(s) with the capacity to order a lot of them (i.e. BA).
 
Johnny
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RE: Emirates Questions Boeing's 748I Stretch Decision

Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:56 am

I think the main goal of the stretch was to bring down the seat-miles-cost of the B748 to the value of the A388.
 
PolymerPlane
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RE: Emirates Questions Boeing's 748I Stretch Decision

Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:02 am

Quoting Johnny (Reply 14):
That is the reason for the delay? Strange - they must feel very confident to secure a huge part of the market with the B748I.

No airlines has ordered the I, so it's not really a delay is it?

How does the 748 line do? With F orders coming by the dozen, when is the earlier anyone can take delivery of 748I?

Quoting Johnny (Reply 10):
Three years after the EIS of the A388 - for a derivative of a late 1960s design.

WHY ?!?!?

Because... A388 was developed from 12 years ago, and B748 was conceived last year. That's 11 years difference. yet the EIS only 3 years apart

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Stitch
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RE: Emirates Questions Boeing's 748I Stretch Decision

Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:05 am

Quoting Johnny (Reply 14):
That is the reason for the delay?

No, I imagine it's a delay due to Boeing not committing resources to the 748I program while it's sales remain slim so they can commit them to other projects with more immediate returns (787) as well as additional changes needing to be made now that the 748I is longer. They did the same thing with the 772LR after 9/11, moving resources to get the 773ER out because it had better immediate prospects.

As to why the 748's EIS is three years later then the A388's (assuming the A388 actually EIS' in 2007), since the 747-8 was launched in November 2005, I would expect it's EIS to be later then the A388's, which was launched in December 2000. Also, since Boeing had already sold out the 744 line till 2009, they had no reason to rush the program since production lines are not going to be sitting idle.

Quoting Johnny (Reply 17):
I think the main goal of the stretch was to bring down the seat-miles-cost of the B748 to the value of the A388.

If you believe Zvezda and Widebodyphotog(?), they already had that and a stretch should make the disparity even greater in favor of the 748.

I also believe some of the reason for the stretch is to make development and production easier since the plane frames will now be identical.
 
Poitin
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RE: Emirates Questions Boeing's 748I Stretch Decis

Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:12 am

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
.We have made it clear to Boeing that we prefer the [original] stretch because of its greater range at maximum payload," he [Tim Clark] says, adding that he has suggested to Boeing that it should consider building both versions "to increase the product spread within the family..."

I suppose if he firm ordered 45 copies of the "747-8 SP", Boeing would make them.

So open your check book Timmy and put your money on the table.

[Edited 2006-10-23 18:13:25]
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baron95
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RE: Emirates Questions Boeing's 748I Stretch Decision

Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:45 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 19):
I also believe some of the reason for the stretch is to make development and production easier since the plane frames will now be identical.

Check again. The 748F and 748I frames are not identical. The 4.6m strech ahead of the wing are in different positions. On the I it streches the upper deck, on the F it does not and is behind the upper deck. The frames are no more common now then they were before the latest redesign of the I. From the wing back, they are the same, but they were the same previously as well. Ahead of the wing the two frames are different now, as they were before.

Regarding the "delay".... What delay. Boeing is delivering 744/744ERF till 2009, then they start delivering 748Fs already on order, then they can have some slots available in late 2010 and early 2011 for the 748I.

It would be stupid of Boeing to spend resources and freeze configuration on the 748I prior to the point needed to meet earliest possible delivery slots. Keeping options open until a decision is called for is smart business.

For example (and this is just to illustrate). If EK or LH or QF or BA or more than one of them comes to Boeing and say, we'll order 50 748I if it has a range of 8,500nm, you can bet that there will be an 8,500nm version built, and that may even be the new baseline (744 length with 8500 nm range).

As in any project, early customers will define what the 748I will be - money (orders) talks.
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airmailer
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RE: Emirates Questions Boeing's 748I Stretch Decision

Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:53 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 3):
just jooking..

You know how to joke Keesje? When did this happen?

How 'bout this one:
"Emirates Fears Stretched Boeing 748i Will Trounce Their 43 A380s on Costs and Put Them Out of Business"?

How does that one hit ya'?

 Wink
 
Gr8Circle
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RE: Emirates Questions Boeing's 748I Stretch Decision

Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:54 am

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 1):
Someone needs to order the India version before they consider offerring it in two versions.

What's an "India" version....  Confused
 
airmailer
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RE: Emirates Questions Boeing's 748I Stretch Decision

Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:06 am

Quoting Eatmybologna (Reply 8):
Quoting Mdorbust (Reply 6):
Then they should have ordered it while it was offered.

But the design has yet to be frozen. Would competant airline management do this?

Have you ever heard of a little plane called the A350?
How many "orders" does that have again?
 
scouseflyer
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RE: Emirates Questions Boeing's 748I Stretch Decision

Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:07 am

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 23):
Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 1):
Someone needs to order the India version before they consider offerring it in two versions.

What's an "India" version....

Sorry was reading a Dale Brown book last night where they referred to models of aircraft in the USAF with a letter using a word (Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, Delta, Echo, Foxtrot, Golf, Hotel, INDIA)

Intercontinental!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Phoenetic_Alphabet

[Edited 2006-10-23 19:10:30]
 
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N328KF
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RE: Emirates Questions Boeing's 748I Stretch Decision

Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:19 am

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 25):
Sorry was reading a Dale Brown book last night where they referred to models of aircraft in the USAF with a letter using a word (Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, Delta, Echo, Foxtrot, Golf, Hotel, INDIA)

It's a common NATO thing. For example, The Tupolev Tu-95 "Bear F" ("F" being the variant) is often referred to as a "Bear Foxtrot."
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halls120
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RE: Emirates Questions Boeing's 748I Stretch Decision

Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:22 am

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 21):
As in any project, early customers will define what the 748I will be - money (orders) talks.

and bull**t - or in this case, hot air - walks.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
BoomBoom
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RE: Emirates Questions Boeing's 748I Stretch Decis

Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:23 am

Quoting Johnny (Reply 10):
Three years after the EIS of the A388 - for a derivative of a late 1960s design.

WHY ?!?!?

Airbus will deliver ONE A380 in 2007! You call that an EIS?

For all of 2008 they will deliver only 13!

WHY ?!?!?

[Edited 2006-10-23 19:27:15]
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leelaw
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RE: Emirates Questions Boeing's 748I Stretch Decision

Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:25 am

The text of the Flight International article quoted in the threadstarter is now available online:

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...tes+questions+747-8I+decision.html

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ikramerica
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RE: Emirates Questions Boeing's 748I Stretch Decision

Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:34 am

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 16):
I thought when Boeing made the decision to stretch the 748i, they said they were "listening to the airlines" and responding to their requirements. Did "airlines" they listened to in this instance not include EK? That would seem very strange to me.

At the time, they said airlines were in TWO camps:

One wanted the same length and increased range
One wanted the same range and increased length.

It was obvious at that time they couldn't please everyone without offering two versions. At the time, that's what I suggested, but not 450 vs. 475, but 410 vs. 475 (475 being the number thrown about at the time).

Boeing listened to the customers it feels will actually by the plane, and my guess is EK was not on that list. EK talks a LOT about stuff. And they buy a lot of planes, but they also don't buy a lot of planes (748, 787, A350) and don't take delivery of planes they order (A346). Clark may be louder, but he's not the only customer in the world.

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 21):
Regarding the "delay".... What delay. Boeing is delivering 744/744ERF till 2009, then they start delivering 748Fs already on order, then they can have some slots available in late 2010 and early 2011 for the 748I.

I think this has a lot to do with at. The more F models they sell, the fewer I slots available. At this point, rushing EIS forward for April 2010 makes no sense if they can't deliver any jets besides the 3 test frames until late 2010 at the earliest.

As B have said before, the A380 problems don't help Boeing too much as they can't deliver 787s, 777s or 747s any sooner or in any greater numbers because of it...
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sk736
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RE: Emirates Questions Boeing's 748I Stretch Decision

Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:43 am

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
Additionally, FI reports that Boeing's original delivery schedule has slipped:

What - Boeing is going to deliver an aircraft later than it promised? Oh no, it must mean that Boeing is about to go out of business. No doubt there are lots of red faced Airbus bashing a-netters out there right now! Can't wait to hear the excuses they'll come up with over this one!
 
Johnny
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RE: Emirates Questions Boeing's 748I Stretch Decision

Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:50 am

@ SK736

This airplane reminds me more and more to the B747-500x and -600x.

Endless talks with potential customers, more and more changes and at the end - no orders.

As i mentioned a lot of times now, Boeing should stop it and go the B777-400-way.An airplane which fits nicely in existing and still growing 777-fleets.

The B748F will find its own market with or without the 748I-version

Just my 2 cents.

Johnny
 
ikramerica
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RE: Emirates Questions Boeing's 748I Stretch Decision

Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:53 am

I still wonder if anyone is going to buy this plane.

One thing to consider though is that over time, planes seem to get more range. The 777 is a recent example. Throughout the family, they have tweaked more range from in service models. The 773ER has gained 300nm since launch.

The 748i may end up earning some it's range back by 2010.

But planes don't grow a few feet over time.

My bet is that if the plane does find customers, by 2012 or so, the range will end up being 8300nm anyway...

Quoting SK736 (Reply 31):
What - Boeing is going to deliver an aircraft later than it promised?

Promised to who? Are there signed contracts for 159 of these planes, and are they delaying delivery of those 159?

No, they are not. They are delivering (as of now) all their signed orders on time, since they are all for the F version. The three VIP jets are unknown entities, as only B and the customers know when they are promised.

Again, the "slip" of the program is due to the continued sales of the F version and no I sales. They are selling out delivery slots, and couldn't deliver 748is in early 2010 if they wanted to at this point, without postponing deliveries for F orders at least.
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bringiton
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RE: Emirates Questions Boeing's 748I Stretch Decision

Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:58 am

Quoting Johnny (Reply 10):
Three years after the EIS of the A388 - for a derivative of a late 1960s design.

WHY ?!?!?

You do realize that since the launch of the 747 in the 60's there have been several follow up models ? Did you think that boeing has been working on the 747-8I since the 60's ?? Boeing has talked to airlines , gained insight , tested the basic design and come up with a way to utilize the effeciencies that came out of testing and refining into something that they thought a wide enough market would appreciate . Look at the Launch to EIS time of the A380 ( 2000 launch and EIS in 2007 end) thats a 7 year developmental period between launch and EIS , IIRC the I hasnt even been oficially launched yet !!

Quoting Stitch (Reply 19):
Also, since Boeing had already sold out the 744 line till 2009, they had no reason to rush the program since production lines are not going to be sitting idle.

BINGO even if they had it earlier they would not have been able to deliver it earlier unless they invested in increasing the production line (or rate) in which case there would need to be a long term high rate sustained run to justify pouring in recources into the project .
 
miamix707
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RE: Emirates Questions Boeing's 748I Stretch Decision

Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:07 am

Quoting Mdorbust (Reply 6):
Then they should have ordered it while it was offered



Quoting NYC777 (Reply 12):
When he buys 100 787s then he could talk to Boeing about the 748I (original. Till then he's stuck with the A3late80.

Good points.

No doubt an important customer but I wouldn't trust the common sense of Tim Clark/EK when they have ordered 45! A380s.

Have they ordered 787-10s yet? They should order those first and only then demand Boeing to also make the 748I to their specific needs.
 
B2707SST
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RE: Emirates Questions Boeing's 748I Stretch Decision

Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:13 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 15):
While I still think they should be offering a 747-7i at 410 seats as well, Boeing seems to have target customers for the 748i and EK was not part of the group. Now maybe if EK were to cancel 25 A380s and order 30 748is, they'd change their mind?

Although this is pretty unlikely, a 747-7I with the same length as the -400 along with the longer -8I and -8F would be an interesting program, in that it it would come full circle to the cancelled 747-500/600 and 747X/ Stretch programs, both of which featured two similarly-sized 747 derivatives (though both the -600 and -X Stretch were considerably larger than the -8I).

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/boe135.shtml

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 30):
Boeing listened to the customers it feels will actually by the plane, and my guess is EK was not on that list. EK talks a LOT about stuff. And they buy a lot of planes, but they also don't buy a lot of planes (748, 787, A350) and don't take delivery of planes they order (A346). Clark may be louder, but he's not the only customer in the world.

Agree as well; Boeing said many times that whoever placed the first -8I order would get to choose the fuselage length:
"We are not going to build two -Intercontinental sizes. The length will be determined either at firm configuration [due in mid- to late 2007], or when the first customer makes an order at a certain length."

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...+747-8+Intercontinental+sales.html

EK did not order or apparently come close enough to an order for Boeing to hold off, while BA and other potential customers (CX? LH?) have pushed hard for the longer fuselage. If EK wants a shorter 747-8I badly enough to order in bulk, Boeing would probably build it. Until then, they are wise to listen to all potential customers.

--B2707SST

[Edited 2006-10-23 20:27:40]
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Stitch
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RE: Emirates Questions Boeing's 748I Stretch Decision

Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:24 am

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 21):
The 748F and 748I frames are not identical. The 4.6m stretch ahead of the wing are in different positions.

Indeed. I wonder, however, if the non-personal-HVAC wiring, cabling and ducting runs below the upper deck would be identical across both models?

Quoting Johnny (Reply 32):
This airplane reminds me more and more to the B747-500x and -600x. Endless talks with potential customers, more and more changes and at the end - no orders.

Well the "Asian Financial Flu" affected the most likely customers for the plane. Customers like SQ, QF, KE, and CX. This delay gave Airbus time to bring forward the A380 and sweep up those customers.

If not for that "flu", the A3XX program may never have been launched as the 745 and (especially) 746 would have secured many of those orders.

Quote:
As i mentioned a lot of times now, Boeing should stop it and go the B777-400-way. An airplane which fits nicely in existing and still growing 777-fleets.

Except the 777-300ER is already bumping up against the 80x80m dimensional limits. I also don't know how close she is to wing-loading and undercarriage loading limits. GE was able to get another 5,000lbs or so of thrust out of the GE90-115 in test, so perhaps Boeing can increase the MTOW of the 773ER to push her range past 8000nm.
 
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autothrust
Posts: 1460
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RE: Emirates Questions Boeing's 748I Stretch Decis

Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:24 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 3):
"Will 747-8i be further delayed?"

"Boeing forced to delay the ailing 747-8i program after critics":

"Clark : 747-8i simply too long!! "

"Will Boeing 747-8i delay influence the 787?"

"New 747 delayed, Turn of fortunes for Boeing?"

just jooking..

Funny one !

Im sure the 748 will be a very efficient aircraft altough that doesnt mean the A380 couldnt match his CASM. Airbus could upgrade the A380 with some "A350XBW" adapted GenNext/Trent Engines and the whole game would look totally diffrent.
We will see.

[Edited 2006-10-23 20:26:27]
“Faliure is not an option.”
 
DAYflyer
Posts: 3546
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: Emirates Questions Boeing's 748I Stretch Decision

Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:26 am

Quoting Mdorbust (Reply 6):
Then they should have ordered it while it was offered.

Agreed. If he was all for it, then he should have bought it after the second A-380 delay was announced.
One Nation Under God
 
Ken777
Posts: 9103
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: Emirates Questions Boeing's 748I Stretch Decision

Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:36 am

Quoting Johnny (Reply 10):
WHY ?!?!?

To make money over the long term with a replacement plane for 747 fleets. It will be interesting to see, way down the road when the last 748 is delivered, which line will have generated the highest profits to date: the 748 or the 380.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 15):
Now maybe if EK were to cancel 25 A380s and order 30 748is, they'd change their mind?

If EK was to tell Airbus that they wanted to transfer 25 388s to 389s how fast would Airbus react? A 748i "SP" might have a better chance, but even that chance is slim.
 
baron95
Posts: 1106
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 10:19 am

RE: Emirates Questions Boeing's 748I Stretch Decision

Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:47 am

Quoting Autothrust (Reply 38):
Airbus could upgrade the A380 with some "A350XBW" adapted GenNext/Trent Engines and the whole game would look totally diffrent.

They haven't even gotten the A380 Mk1 out yet and you are already talking to an upgrade? And this for a plane that has not been getting any meaningful additional orders? Not to mention a program that will be under water financially until at least 2010?

At some point you need to stop just throwing more money at the problem, don't you think?

You got things reversed. Boeing ONLY launched the 747-8 because more efficient engines were on hand. Similarly, Boeing has said they will ONLY launch the 737RS once more fuel efficient engines are on hand. That is how it has always been in aviation: powerplant evolution drives aiframe evolution.

Only Airbus decided to launch the A380 with previous generation engines and previous generation airframe materials. And you wonder were the general rule of bigger=lower CASM is not holding for them.
Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
 
justloveplanes
Posts: 871
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2004 5:38 am

RE: Emirates Questions Boeing's 748I Stretch Decision

Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:49 am

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 35):
No doubt an important customer but I wouldn't trust the common sense of Tim Clark/EK when they have ordered 45! A380s.

I think Mr. Clark would like a more exact alternative to the A380 to fill in the delivery delay gap. If EK was planning for a low density A380, could it get longer than standard ranges, which a standard density, 8300 nm 747-7I could match?

SQ has said their growth plans are cut in half because of the A380 delay. EK is probably even worse, since they are so 380 heavy. I don't see why EK hasn't committed to at least some 747-8's at this point to stem the bleeding. It's not going to be a new type for them, they are buying plenty of 8F's.
 
sk736
Posts: 550
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2006 4:47 am

RE: Emirates Questions Boeing's 748I Stretch Decision

Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:49 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 33):
Quoting SK736 (Reply 31):
What - Boeing is going to deliver an aircraft later than it promised?

Promised to who? Are there signed contracts for 159 of these planes, and are they delaying delivery of those 159?

Oh dear, looks like I rattled a few cages!
 
travelin man
Posts: 3204
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 10:04 am

RE: Emirates Questions Boeing's 748I Stretch Decision

Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:52 am

Quoting SK736 (Reply 43):
Oh dear, looks like I rattled a few cages!

Only by being completely off-base in your "assessment".
 
ebbuk
Posts: 844
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 6:47 am

RE: Emirates Questions Boeing's 748I Stretch Decision

Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:20 am

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
Additionally, FI reports that Boeing's original delivery schedule has slipped: final configuration of the 747-8I is due to be frozen in mid-2007, with initial deliveries in mid-to-late 2010, rather than April 2010

Sounds like Boeing's got a touch of the 380itus! Seems neither manufacturer can stick to targets when it comes to the VLA market, although one has orders for both their pax and freighter versions and one hasn't... yet
 
RAPCON
Posts: 651
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2006 7:20 am

RE: Emirates Questions Boeing's 748I Stretch Decision

Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:36 am

...while agree with the lot of you in saying to Emirates to put your money where your mouth is, one always has to play at least "lip service" to your customer. It would not hurt Boeing to sit down for a pow-wow with Clark and listen to his opinion.
MODS CAN'T STOP ME....THEY CAN ONLY HOPE TO CONTAIN ME!!!
 
Poitin
Posts: 2651
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:32 am

RE: Emirates Questions Boeing's 748I Stretch Decision

Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:00 am

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 46):
while agree with the lot of you in saying to Emirates to put your money where your mouth is, one always has to play at least "lip service" to your customer. It would not hurt Boeing to sit down for a pow-wow with Clark and listen to his opinion.

I am sure they have talked to him and asked him the magic question "how many?" and didn't hear a large enought number.

If he said "40", then he's have them. If he said "10" then unless there are enough others wanting such range over load, then they have to say, sorry. Unlike Airbus, they are a business.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
User avatar
N328KF
Posts: 5810
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 3:50 am

RE: Emirates Questions Boeing's 748I Stretch Decision

Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:04 am

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 45):
Sounds like Boeing's got a touch of the 380itus! Seems neither manufacturer can stick to targets when it comes to the VLA market, although one has orders for both their pax and freighter versions and one hasn't... yet

I think you are irreprehensibly misreading the situation. As someone else said (Zvezda?), the 747-8I issue is not technical as much as it is the fact that they're selling 747-8Fs hand-over-fist. This is exactly the reason that the 787-9 EIS is delayed as much as it is; yet people were trying to make that into a negative, too.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13812
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Emirates Questions Boeing's 748I Stretch Decision

Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:16 am

Quoting SK736 (Reply 43):
Oh dear, looks like I rattled a few cages!

No, you made a stupid comment and were called on it.  Wink

Now, if Boeing announced the 748F would not EIS in Q4 2009 but instead in Q3 2010, you'd be on target.

The 748 is progressing as planned. Except for, of course, a complete lack of orders for the 748i.  Wink

Why build and test an aircraft that nobody wants?

I'm of the firm belief that unless a larger order comes in for the 748i, it will never even get built. They were sure of 20-25 frames before they launched the 748F. I think the same will be true for the 748i. They'll need contracts from 2 carriers for at least 20 frames before they do anything more than talk and draw pretty pictures.

The 3 VIP frames sold, IMHO, look to be the test frames, and I am guessing that the stipulation is that "they will be delivered when they are delivered, if they are delivered."

Just a guess there, but a VIP cares not about the test cycles a jet goes through, or the "uniqueness" of it's configuration as a test aircraft. But a large carrier who orders 10 may not want 3 of the 10 to be different, especially after what's happened with the A380. I doubt SQ or EK are happy that their first frames will be "unique" in design. (QR isn't as affected, since their whole order is for test frames.)
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.

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