MIAUA777
Topic Author
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American Eagle's ATR Replacement When?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:03 am

With ASA retiring their ATRs is there any word as to if AE will begin to retire theirs and replace them with jets?
 
EMBQA
Posts: 7798
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RE: American Eagle's ATR Replacement When?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:10 am

American Eagle has no plans to replace the ATR's. The market they serve is ideal for a turbo prop. Placing a jet on those routes would be a loosing idea.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
walter747
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RE: American Eagle's ATR Replacement When?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:27 am

i would like to see an EMB-170 or -190 or -195 that would look nice
Hussel, Hussel, Husel, Grind, Grind, Grind
 
EMBQA
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RE: American Eagle's ATR Replacement When?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:30 am

Quoting Walter747 (Reply 2):
would like to see an EMB-170 or -190 or -195 that would look nice

...and keep dreaming. Americans pilot unions will never allow it.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
walter747
Posts: 1379
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RE: American Eagle's ATR Replacement When?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:39 am

yea your probably right
Hussel, Hussel, Husel, Grind, Grind, Grind
 
gigneil
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RE: American Eagle's ATR Replacement When?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:41 am

The ATR is the perfect plane for the markets it serves.

If anything, the replacement for those ATRs will be ATR-500s.

NS
 
walter747
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RE: American Eagle's ATR Replacement When?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:43 am

so AE wouldn't want to switch to jets from props
Hussel, Hussel, Husel, Grind, Grind, Grind
 
AlitaliaMD11
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RE: American Eagle's ATR Replacement When?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:56 am

I really love the ATRs and one of my favorite parts of visiting SJU is to watch them and occasionally fly on them like I did this past August to SXM.

The condition of the ATR-72 back to SJU was less then ideal which lead me to think that an upgrade to the newer and quieter 500 versions might be in order.
No Vueling No Party
 
N1120A
Posts: 26468
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RE: American Eagle's ATR Replacement When?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:00 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 3):
...and keep dreaming. Americans pilot unions will never allow it.

Sure they will, they will allow them to be flown in bare metal. AA has stated that it is their firm belief that 100 seat jets belong at mainline and that they likely should have held on to the 717s as opposed to the Fokkers, which ended up getting axed soon after. Further, Eagle is restricted, by AA's pilot contract, to 25 airplanes over 50 seats and no carrier flying as AmericanConnection may fly aircraft over 50 seats for any airline, not just AA. This is why Chautauqua had to pay AA contract fines when they initially flew the E170 for United and why they had to create Republic Airways group and purchase Shuttle America.

Quoting Walter747 (Reply 6):
so AE wouldn't want to switch to jets from props

Not if they are smart
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
EMBQA
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RE: American Eagle's ATR Replacement When?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:05 am

Quoting Walter747 (Reply 6):
so AE wouldn't want to switch to jets from props

On the market that AE flies the ATR no... jets would not work.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
walter747
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RE: American Eagle's ATR Replacement When?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:09 am

they mostly fly them into the caribbean right?
Hussel, Hussel, Husel, Grind, Grind, Grind
 
EMBQA
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Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 3:52 am

RE: American Eagle's ATR Replacement When?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:10 am

Quoting Walter747 (Reply 10):
they mostly fly them into the caribbean right?

They only fly in the Caribbean. All short hauls...
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
atlaaron
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Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 11:30 pm

RE: American Eagle's ATR Replacement When?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:17 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 11):
They only fly in the Caribbean. All short hauls...

Not true, I was recently on one from EYW-MIA.
 
walter747
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RE: American Eagle's ATR Replacement When?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:19 am

thank you thats what i thought
Hussel, Hussel, Husel, Grind, Grind, Grind
 
N1120A
Posts: 26468
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RE: American Eagle's ATR Replacement When?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:23 am

Quoting Atlaaron (Reply 12):
Not true, I was recently on one from EYW-MIA.

EYW is in the Carribean  Wink
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
atlaaron
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RE: American Eagle's ATR Replacement When?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:30 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 14):
EYW is in the Carribean

Since when?
 
EMBQA
Posts: 7798
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RE: American Eagle's ATR Replacement When?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:37 am

Quoting Atlaaron (Reply 12):
Not true, I was recently on one from EYW-MIA.

Key word here MIA....!!!!! They fly only out of MIA.....mainly to support the Caribbean market....... including Key West
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
N1120A
Posts: 26468
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: American Eagle's ATR Replacement When?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:37 am

Quoting ATLAaron (Reply 15):
Since when?

Well, I guess technically they are in the Straits of Florida, but are part of AA's Carribean service.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
DeltaGuy
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RE: American Eagle's ATR Replacement When?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:49 am

After the icing accident, people realized that the ATR isn't a cold weather machine, so they're stuck in south florida.

The 72's are really beat up right now- really a mess, hopefully they replace them one of these days...they are cheap as hell to operate though, I used to fuel them at JAX coming from MIA, they'd only use a few hundred pounds on the trip- cheapo.

DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
flyaas80
Posts: 109
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RE: American Eagle's ATR Replacement When?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:13 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 9):

On the market that AE flies the ATR no... jets would not work.

 checkmark 

I completely agree that no jet could efficently work with the markets that the ATR-72 serves. I also believe that new ATR-72s is not the aircraft to replace the current ATRs. I flew an ATR-72 with AE operated by Exec. Airlines from MIA to RSW and they were asking for volunteers to be vanned to RSW. This has happened to me several times on ATR-72 flights I have taken out of MIA. What about replacing the ATR-72 with the Q400?

ATR-72
Max Cruise speed: 276kts
Max Takeoff weight: 22,000 kg

Q400
Max Cruise speed: 360 kts
Max Takeoff weight: 29,257 kg

Furthermore AE ATR-72s are flown under the AE name but actually operated by Exec. Airlines out of MIA and SJU. So who's decision is this really is this on the aircraft replacement. Does AE or AA own Exec. Airlines?
The only way to fly is by the seat of your pants...
 
N62NA
Posts: 4038
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2003 1:05 am

RE: American Eagle's ATR Replacement When?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:14 am

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 18):
After the icing accident, people realized that the ATR isn't a cold weather machine, so they're stuck in south florida.

Not true - CO flew ATRs out of EWR to lots of small and mid-sized cities in the Northeast year round without any incidents.
 
walter747
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RE: American Eagle's ATR Replacement When?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:19 am

CO is also deciding to operate Q400's also out of EWR
Hussel, Hussel, Husel, Grind, Grind, Grind
 
COERJ145
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RE: American Eagle's ATR Replacement When?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:25 am

Quoting FlyAAS80 (Reply 19):
This has happened to me several times on ATR-72 flights I have taken out of MIA. What about replacing the ATR-72 with the Q400?

I was thinking the exact same thing.
 
ikramerica
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Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: American Eagle's ATR Replacement When?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:27 am

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 18):
The 72's are really beat up right now- really a mess, hopefully they replace them one of these days...

In the late 70s AA was using piston aircraft out of SJU. I remember flying on a DC-something, and one of those flying metal boxcar planes as well. Sorry I don't know the name of those, but they were fun to look at. I wish I could be more specific, but I was 4 years old at the time...  Wink

Something tells me the ATRs will be hanging around for a while longer in SJU.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
konrad
Posts: 466
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2002 3:54 am

RE: American Eagle's ATR Replacement When?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:27 am

Quoting N62NA (Reply 20):
Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 18):
After the icing accident, people realized that the ATR isn't a cold weather machine, so they're stuck in south florida.

Not true - CO flew ATRs out of EWR to lots of small and mid-sized cities in the Northeast year round without any incidents.

Same for Finnair. North of Helsinki gets much colder weather then EWR (though probably not as humid).
 
N1120A
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Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: American Eagle's ATR Replacement When?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:28 am

Quoting FlyAAS80 (Reply 19):
What about replacing the ATR-72 with the Q400?

The Q400, while more capable, is heavier and uses more fuel than the ATR. On the routes they are flown on, the ATR is pretty much the ideal aircraft in the market. A Q400 order could be used as an overall expansion and replacement aircraft in the Saab markets, and could be combined with an introduction of the Q200 to directly replace the Saabs

Quoting FlyAAS80 (Reply 19):
Furthermore AE ATR-72s are flown under the AE name but actually operated by Exec. Airlines out of MIA and SJU. So who's decision is this really is this on the aircraft replacement. Does AE or AA own Exec. Airlines?

Executive is wholy owned by AMR
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: American Eagle's ATR Replacement When?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:50 am

ATR72's were initially pulled from ORD for the first winter following the icing incident, but they did return to ORD for several more winters after that. They were pulled from ORD due to marketing reasons, in order to say they offered an all-jet network out of ORD.

The ATR72's is the right plane for the routes they serve and they are not going anywhere anytime soon.
 
flyaas80
Posts: 109
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RE: American Eagle's ATR Replacement When?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:59 am

Thank you N1120A, I appreciate the information regarding ownership of Exec. Airlines.

The Q400 on a sample fair of $100 has a break-even point of 35% capacity. With regards to a 70 seat aircraft that leaves the roughly 45 seats that remain as profitability as posted on the Q400 specs sheet. That seems like a pretty good profit margin. I would like to see the break-even point for the ATR-72, though i couldn't find it.
The only way to fly is by the seat of your pants...
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 6176
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RE: American Eagle's ATR Replacement When?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:13 am

ATR72's were initially pulled from ORD for the first winter following the icing incident, but they did return to ORD for several more winters after that. They were pulled from ORD due to marketing reasons, in order to say they offered an all-jet network out of ORD.

The ATR72's is the right plane for the routes they serve and they are not going anywhere anytime soon.
 
gigneil
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Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: American Eagle's ATR Replacement When?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:14 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 16):
They fly only out of MIA.....mainly to support the Caribbean market....... including Key West

They operate extensively from SJU as well.

Quoting FlyAAS80 (Reply 19):
What about replacing the ATR-72 with the Q400?

Maybe. The Q400 is a great craft, but the ATR72-500 has been HANDILY outselling it.

N
 
Tangowhisky
Posts: 667
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 2:26 am

RE: American Eagle's ATR Replacement When?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:59 pm

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 18):
The 72's are really beat up right now- really a mess, hopefully they replace them one of these days...they are cheap as hell to operate though,

Are they really?

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 29):
Maybe. The Q400 is a great craft, but the ATR72-500 has been HANDILY outselling it.

As I understand it, the Q400 is a newer design and is designed to go faster than the ATR-72. But the Q400's faster speed comes at a higher price: "Burns More Fuel". In this day and age, I would say if a turboprop is all about lower fuel costs, then the ATR-72 must be winning sales for this very reason. Wasn't the Saab 2000 going to be a fast turboprop at the sexpense of higher fuel burns? Look what happened to that? It got killed by RJs as it's speed and fuel burn tradeoff against and RJ was too close to give it a true edge.
Only the paranoid survive
 
CanadianNorth
Posts: 3142
Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2002 11:41 am

RE: American Eagle's ATR Replacement When?

Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:13 pm

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 18):
After the icing accident, people realized that the ATR isn't a cold weather machine,



Quoting N62NA (Reply 20):
Not true - CO flew ATRs out of EWR to lots of small and mid-sized cities in the Northeast year round without any incidents.

Don't mean to get off topic, but I'll throw in the fact that First Air is currently operating a small fleet of ATR 42-300s out of northern Canada. I've been told they are breaking down all the time, but they seem to be getting the job done.


CanadianNorth
Way to go, nice and slow, never late, 748!
 
NASBWI
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RE: American Eagle's ATR Replacement When?

Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:26 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 23):
In the late 70s AA was using piston aircraft out of SJU. I remember flying on a DC-something, and one of those flying metal boxcar planes as well. Sorry I don't know the name of those, but they were fun to look at. I wish I could be more specific, but I was 4 years old at the time...

There was fabulous book I read a few years back called "Caribbean Props", which illustrated much of the flying going on down in the Caribbean (Puerto Rico and points south and east). Executive (or perhaps its pre-curser) was called American Inter-Island Air, which operated Convair 440s. Soon after, however, Casa 212s (the boxcar you had in mind) from Ocean Air became the new Executive Airlines and rebranded as American Eagle. Casa's and 440s were phased out in favor of ATR-42s, and the rest is history.

As for the ATR vs regional jet in the Caribbean, I think it's been mentioned before, but throughout the Caribbean, the market seems to demand a lot of cargo - something most regional jets cannot offer. The ATR, by contrast, has a vast amount of space in its forward cargo area. That said, the AT7 has become to American Eagle what the A300 has become to American mainline (at least in terms of capacity). As far as a replacement, I'd be willing to say another ATR! After all, they are still being made in newer versions. Perhaps the SJU operations should consider replacing the old -42-300s with -500 series.
Fierce, Fabulous, and Flawless ;)
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13807
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: American Eagle's ATR Replacement When?

Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:11 am

Quoting NASBWI (Reply 32):
Executive (or perhaps its pre-curser) was called American Inter-Island Air, which operated Convair 440s.

Either AA was flying DC3/4s down there or American Inter-Island Air was as well, because we flew on a DC-something with a tail gear. That was sloped when you boarded. Little kids remember that stuff, and how the tail lifted up before you take off. I know it was a Douglas because my Dad and Brother, both plane enthusiasts, said so at the time. And AA flew both DC3 and DC4s over time.

It was an interesting experience to fly an AA 747 JFK-SJU then connect to a piston DC-3/4 to SJU-STT. I don't recall whether this was one of their flights that stopped at St. Croix. I remember a lot of those flights, and they would do a triangle, usually stopping at St. Croix on the way back due to STT's danger runway at the time (short, with mountains to crash into).

I don't think my Mom liked the piston experience though, as after that we flew Eastern a lot to STT, who had jet flights on the 727.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
NASBWI
Posts: 923
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 1:12 am

RE: American Eagle's ATR Replacement When?

Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:34 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 33):
Either AA was flying DC3/4s down there or American Inter-Island Air was as well, because we flew on a DC-something with a tail gear. That was sloped when you boarded. Little kids remember that stuff, and how the tail lifted up before you take off. I know it was a Douglas because my Dad and Brother, both plane enthusiasts, said so at the time. And AA flew both DC3 and DC4s over time.

Definitely won't argue that! lol I had forgotten to mention that the book talked about airlines that operated within a certain time frame - I want to say between the late 60s through early 80s. I didn't see an American DC-3 mentioned, *but* perhaps it was a contract carrier operating as a feeder for AA (especially since Eagle wasn't around then). There WERE a lot of DC-3 operators, both pax and freight, operating around the VI back then.
Fierce, Fabulous, and Flawless ;)
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12495
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: American Eagle's ATR Replacement When?

Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:43 am

The ATR's are excellent for the Carribbean connections market for AA our of SJU. Most of the flights are less than 1 hour, they are excellent cargo aircraft, they are stong and reliable, easy for pax and freight to board and leave, they can land on shorter runways than pure jets, and they can be operated cheaply. In winter of 2003, I was on them between SJU and Tortola/Beef Is. British Virgin Islands, and as it flights at maybe 4000-5000 feet, you got excellent views out the windows of a very nice region. Yes, they didn't work well in areas where subject to icing (due to flaws in the design of the anti-icing device, an expandable rubber bladder on the leading wing edge to break up ice) they have found a great home in the Carribbean for AA and others.
Any replacement, if needed, would probably best by later editions of these workhorse a/c's.
 
access-air
Posts: 1576
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2000 5:30 pm

RE: American Eagle's ATR Replacement When?

Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:57 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 33):
Either AA was flying DC3/4s down there or American Inter-Island Air was as well, because we flew on a DC-something with a tail gear. That was sloped when you boarded. Little kids remember that stuff, and how the tail lifted up before you take off. I know it was a Douglas because my Dad and Brother, both plane enthusiasts, said so at the time. And AA flew both DC3 and DC4s over time.

Well Maybe what you flew on was an Air BVI DC3????? Air BVI flew DC3s in that area to/from the Virgin Islands....the Only Piston engined planes that American Airlines flew in the Caribbean in the 70s and 80s were the Convair 440s of American Inter-Island Air....

Also, you all have to rememebr that in the Caribbean and in Florida, people dont seem to be as "UPTIGHT" about Props versus Jets as much as the rest of the country is....Mainly because they are just happy top be going from Point A to B........
Just because you have the best and most expensive toys doesnt always qualify you for your place in the game...The acronym KISS comes to mind...."KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID"......

Access-Air
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