masseybrown
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CO Seeks Renewal Of Moscow Route

Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:43 am

http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/pdf98/420505_web.pdf

CO asked the DOT for renewal of Moscow authority, saying they intend to request allocation of US-Russian frequencies "shortly". Maybe Moscow is Plan B if they don't get Shanghai.
 
DeltaGuy
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RE: CO Seeks Renewal Of Moscow Route

Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:46 am

Not that it's really competition per-se since DL is Skyteam as well, but this is competition on the route for DL- why don't they just do some codeshare (if they aren't already)

If they do get the route, maybe they'll codeshare then and Skyteam overall would benefit.

DeltaGuy
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LAXintl
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RE: CO Seeks Renewal Of Moscow Route

Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:01 am

Funny timing. I believe this is a defensive move by CO to both lock in its designation and also posture a little bit as their is another US carrier looking at serving Moscow and is likely to file for its own authority this winter.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
A330323X
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RE: CO Seeks Renewal Of Moscow Route

Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:16 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 2):
Funny timing. I believe this is a defensive move by CO to both lock in its designation and also posture a little bit as their is another US carrier looking at serving Moscow and is likely to file for its own authority this winter.

A defensive move to posture, sure. It's no secret (or at least it shouldn't be, since I've been blabbing about it for a few weeks) that US desperately wanted to fly to ATH this year, and that they were willing to use very-inappropriate equipment on the route specifically so that they could beat CO into the market; since it appears that US won't be able to get its planes all the way to ATH regardless of how much it might want to weight-restrict them, US has set its sights on SVO, again with the intention of beating CO into the MOW market even if it meant using sub-optimal equipment. While I'm sure CO would have been interested in the cities anyway, it might be trying to do the same and get into the cities quickly to beat US to the punch. CO could make the first move, though, if it wanted to, as I don't expect US to make an announcement until it completes talks with Boeing regarding the possible increase of the MTOW on their 762ERs.

As for keeping the designation/frequencies, that's not an issue here, as there are more than ample of both available.
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
 
PanAm747
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RE: CO Seeks Renewal Of Moscow Route

Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:25 am

Didn't CO want to fly into Domodedovo Airport? And what has been holding them back - lack of equipment? Bureaucracy?

And how is Delta doing with its SVO flights?
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worldtraveler
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RE: CO Seeks Renewal Of Moscow Route

Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:06 am

DL's SVO flights are some of the most profitable on its system. ATL has spooled up very quickly which was part of the motivation for expanding its Eastern European presence.

CO and DL may both be in Skyteam but they are fierce competitors. I don't believe either codeshare on any flights over the Atlantic but even if they do, they do not participate in any way on originating traffic from any hubs or gateways. The government would not approve any codeshare arrangement between domestic carriers that involves cooperating for local passengers but no airline wants to share its hard earned local business with anyone. And neither CO, NW, or DL share any revenues at all. DL and CO both operate independent gateways and they compete for local passengers very aggressively.
 
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mbm3
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RE: CO Seeks Renewal Of Moscow Route

Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:08 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 4):
Didn't CO want to fly into Domodedovo Airport? And what has been holding them back - lack of equipment? Bureaucracy?

I think a lack of equipment, some bureaucracy, and Aeroflot joining SkyTeam put things on hold.
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Aeroflot777
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RE: CO Seeks Renewal Of Moscow Route

Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:08 pm

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 4):
Didn't CO want to fly into Domodedovo Airport? And what has been holding them back - lack of equipment? Bureaucracy?

Because SU joined SkyTeam and are opening up a brand new terminal in Moscow next year, Co will definitely have to serve SVO. It's going to be a SkyTeam terminal (as well as a few other airlines). There is no longer a logical reason for serving DME. SkyTeam will be brought together.

Aeroflot777
 
A330323X
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RE: CO Seeks Renewal Of Moscow Route

Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:16 pm

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 5):
The government would not approve any codeshare arrangement between domestic carriers that involves cooperating for local passengers

The government would indeed approve codeshares between domestic carriers for local traffic; they do it all the time. What they generally don't allow is carriers codesharing on local traffic on *routes where the two carriers each compete with nonstop flights*, but even then there are exceptions.
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: CO Seeks Renewal Of Moscow Route

Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:06 pm

CO is a great airline and this is wonderful news for them. Does anyone know what kind of equipment would be used? My first guess is a 762. Im sure CO would fly a 757 (or even a regional jet) if it had the range.  crowded 
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tsnamm
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RE: CO Seeks Renewal Of Moscow Route

Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:27 pm

I think this has to be a Plan B...Moscow has been on the plate for a number of years...in fact DME was planned for last summer and then was pulled off...as far as equipment goes a 767 will have to be pulled from another destination again, as the 757 will never cut it...the 787's can come fast enough!!
 
masseybrown
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RE: CO Seeks Renewal Of Moscow Route

Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:42 pm

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 1):
why don't they just do some codeshare (if they aren't already)

Because they don't make any money on a codeshare. I'm not even sure they get a standard agency fee for selling the ticket.
 
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nighthawk
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RE: CO Seeks Renewal Of Moscow Route

Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:00 pm

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 1):
Not that it's really competition per-se since DL is Skyteam as well, but this is competition on the route for DL- why don't they just do some codeshare (if they aren't already)

Continental has served Edinburgh for a couple of years now, but last summer Delta launched their own service to EDI, much to the annoyance of CO. There wa sno codeshare in this instance, and both carriers have continued to do well on the route.
 
flydreamliner
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RE: CO Seeks Renewal Of Moscow Route

Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:43 am

Quoting Tsnamm (Reply 10):
the 787's can come fast enough!!

The way they are expanding internationally, it sounds like they might even need a seccond order of them! It seems like between Aeroflot, DL, and CO, and possibly US as discussed here, service from NY-Moscow might get a bit crowded.....
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
EWRandMDW
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RE: CO Seeks Renewal Of Moscow Route

Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:39 am

I hope CO gets the route. Not everyone on the planet wants to fly thru JFK you know!
 
UAL777UK
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RE: CO Seeks Renewal Of Moscow Route

Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:46 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 2):
Funny timing. I believe this is a defensive move by CO to both lock in its designation and also posture a little bit as their is another US carrier looking at serving Moscow and is likely to file for its own authority this winter.

And that airline is?
 
UN_B732
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RE: CO Seeks Renewal Of Moscow Route

Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:53 am

CO has had this route for so long, hopefully the DOT will tell thim this is their last renewal, or AA/US/whatever will get the route
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A330323X
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RE: CO Seeks Renewal Of Moscow Route

Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:54 am

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 11):
Because they don't make any money on a codeshare. I'm not even sure they get a standard agency fee for selling the ticket.

While I couldn't comment on the CO/DL codeshare, the UA/US codeshare gives the booking carrier a 2-3% commission when all travel is on the other airline's metal.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 13):
It seems like between Aeroflot, DL, and CO, and possibly US as discussed here, service from NY-Moscow might get a bit crowded.....

Any US service would be PHL-SVO, not NYC-SVO.

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 15):
And that airline is?

Read my reply 3.  Wink
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walter747
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RE: CO Seeks Renewal Of Moscow Route

Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:03 am

i thin PHL-SVO for US is a good move
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vega
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RE: CO Seeks Renewal Of Moscow Route

Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:58 am

Quoting A330323X (Reply 3):
CO could make the first move, though, if it wanted to, as I don't expect US to make an announcement until it completes talks with Boeing regarding the possible increase of the MTOW on their 762ERs.

How are they going to increase the MTOW? Is it just a paper re-certification process or do they need to make new structural changes, or are the MTOWs going to be recertified to existing changes which occured after the last certification, which I assume was at delivery? Does US use the center 762ER fuel tank and was it assumed to be used (or not used) for the initial MTOW certification?
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BigGSFO
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RE: CO Seeks Renewal Of Moscow Route

Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:04 am

Too bad AA isn't showing much interest in Moscow. I would think ORD-SVO would be a very good flight for them.
 
UN_B732
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RE: CO Seeks Renewal Of Moscow Route

Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:22 am

Didn't AA try to enter Russia in the 90s and have trouble with the government?
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sw733
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RE: CO Seeks Renewal Of Moscow Route

Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:11 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 9):
My first guess is a 762. Im sure CO would fly a 757 (or even a regional jet) if it had the range.

Doubtful...CO is using 757's on routes that otherwise wouldn't have service for the most part...places where a 757 is maximum capacity on the route. Moscow is far from this - they should have no problem filling a 767.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: CO Seeks Renewal Of Moscow Route

Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:46 am

Quoting SW733 (Reply 22):
Doubtful...CO is using 757's on routes that otherwise wouldn't have service for the most part...places where a 757 is maximum capacity on the route. Moscow is far from this - they should have no problem filling a 767.

I was being sarcastic. A 757 much less a regional jet would never have the range. I occasionally poke fun at CO for flying narrowbodies like the 757 for very long distances as well as flying EMB145's for flights that are over 3 hours long. I have no doubt that CO can fill a 767 between SVO and EWR.
It is what it is...
 
sw733
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RE: CO Seeks Renewal Of Moscow Route

Wed Oct 25, 2006 10:01 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 23):
I was being sarcastic

Well you said if it had the range, and I could totally see CO opening up a TON of eastern european routes if the 757 had the legs. Not necesarilly Moscow, but St. Petersburg, Helsinki, Warsaw, Budapest, maybe even Kiev...the list goes on and on.
 
A330323X
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RE: CO Seeks Renewal Of Moscow Route

Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:15 am

Quoting Vega (Reply 19):
How are they going to increase the MTOW? Is it just a paper re-certification process or do they need to make new structural changes, or are the MTOWs going to be recertified to existing changes which occured after the last certification, which I assume was at delivery?

Just a software change, nothing structural. And it certainly won't get them to anything near the MTOW of CO's birds, just more than they have now--when PI ordered the birds, they were even at the time not the fanciest ones available. And, of course, it's still subject to them agreeing with Boeing over how much money they'll need to fork over for it.
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
 
worldtraveler
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RE: CO Seeks Renewal Of Moscow Route

Thu Oct 26, 2006 9:21 am

Quoting A330323X (Reply 8):
The government would indeed approve codeshares between domestic carriers for local traffic; they do it all the time. What they generally don't allow is carriers codesharing on local traffic on *routes where the two carriers each compete with nonstop flights*, but even then there are exceptions.

I believe you pretty much repeate exactly what I said although I didn't include exceptions because there aren't a whole lot of them, esp. in markets where both carriers compete in the same market.

DL and CO are both considered to serve the NYC market and thus it is doubtful they will ever codeshare on any local markets.

Quoting A330323X (Reply 17):
While I couldn't comment on the CO/DL codeshare, the UA/US codeshare gives the booking carrier a 2-3% commission when all travel is on the other airline's metal.

Most codeshare arrangements include some sort of commission as long as the selling carrier pays the cost of CRS and credit card fees.

Quoting SW733 (Reply 24):
I could totally see CO opening up a TON of eastern european routes if the 757 had the legs. Not necesarilly Moscow, but St. Petersburg, Helsinki, Warsaw, Budapest, maybe even Kiev...the list goes on and on.

It is doubtful that CO will be able to expand much in Eastern Europe. Most of the markets are one carrier only markets and DL specifically entered the markets knowing there was little chance for another carrier to get in there. While DL's eastern Europe flights are meeting expectations, none of them are barn-burners yet with the exception of SVO.

CO's next move should be to use the 787s to expand into markets that DL cannot because of a shortage of long-range aircraft; those markets likely include NYC to Asia, the Middle East, or Africa. Right now DL seems content to do much of that flying from ATL.

Quoting A330323X (Reply 25):
And it certainly won't get them to anything near the MTOW of CO's birds, just more than they have now-

what type of engines do US' 762s have? that COULD be the primary limiting factor if the engines are not powerful enough for the full 406/412K lb MTOW.
 
sw733
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RE: CO Seeks Renewal Of Moscow Route

Thu Oct 26, 2006 10:11 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 26):
Most of the markets are one carrier only markets and DL specifically entered the markets knowing there was little chance for another carrier to get in there

Well...not long ago most people thought Bristol-Newark was a zero carrier market...but with the 757, they made it work. I'm not arguing that they will start eastern european routes, i'm simply saying that if the 757's had the legs, I wouldn't be surprised if they had ambitious eastern european plans. it's all really a moot point since the 757 can't make it though.
 
klwright69
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RE: CO Seeks Renewal Of Moscow Route

Thu Oct 26, 2006 12:15 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 23):
Quoting SW733 (Reply 22):
Doubtful...CO is using 757's on routes that otherwise wouldn't have service for the most part...places where a 757 is maximum capacity on the route. Moscow is far from this - they should have no problem filling a 767.

I was being sarcastic. A 757 much less a regional jet would never have the range. I occasionally poke fun at CO for flying narrowbodies like the 757 for very long distances as well as flying EMB145's for flights that are over 3 hours long.

That was just hysterical, we were all laughing our heads off! We haven't seen that kind of humor here in a long time.

Quoting SW733 (Reply 24):

Well you said if it had the range, and I could totally see CO opening up a TON of eastern european routes if the 757 had the legs. Not necesarilly Moscow, but St. Petersburg, Helsinki, Warsaw, Budapest, maybe even Kiev...the list goes on and on.

But they don't have the range.. Next??
 
levg79
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RE: CO Seeks Renewal Of Moscow Route

Thu Oct 26, 2006 5:01 pm

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 5):
DL's SVO flights are some of the most profitable on its system. ATL has spooled up very quickly which was part of the motivation for expanding its Eastern European presence.

NYC has the biggest Russian community in the US so JFK-SVO flights just simply have to be profitable. But what about ATL? Do they have a lot of continuing passengers on their SVO-ATL routes? I wouldn't assume that they can fit a full plane of ATL passengers to go to SVO. Anyone have more info on this?

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 20):
Too bad AA isn't showing much interest in Moscow. I would think ORD-SVO would be a very good flight for them.

Is SU still flying to ORD? I don't think that route has much potential. ORD-KBP would probably make more sense due to the big Ukrainian community in the Chicago area.

Leo.
A mile of runway takes you to the world. A mile of highway takes you a mile.
 
worldtraveler
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RE: CO Seeks Renewal Of Moscow Route

Thu Oct 26, 2006 10:34 pm

as I said, ATLSVO has quickly become one of DL's best transatlantic routes... the DL insiders will have to tell you how they do it but DOT statistics bear it out.
 
UN_B732
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RE: CO Seeks Renewal Of Moscow Route

Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:51 am

SU is not flying to ORD.
UA might have a chance with ORD-SVO, but I don't know.
VV (AeroSvit) has applied to fly ORD-KBP, but since ukraine is a category 2 (?) FAA country, ukrainian carriers can't add any more frequencies to the US, at least that's the last I've heard, unless it's changed.
There is a fair Russian population at EWR, and tons and tons and tons of connection traffic to be had. A 762 on EWR-DME will be full, i think both in the back and the front, does the 764 have the legs?
-Mr. X
What now?