N62NA
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AF 95 MIA-CDG With Gear Down!

Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:51 am

I took a break a few minutes ago from staring at the computer here in Miami Beach to see AF 95 headed out to sea with it's nose landing gear down!

Don't know if the mains were down as well.

Since we're about 4 minutes / 12 miles from MIA, doesn't this seem a bit unusual?

I've never seen this before out here!
 
CPH-R
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RE: AF 95 MIA-CDG With Gear Down!

Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:53 am

From an armchair captain:
They could have been left out to cool of, if there has been a good amount of braking while taxiing from the gate to the runway.
 
speedbird128
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RE: AF 95 MIA-CDG With Gear Down!

Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:55 am

Aircraft often leave the gear down on departure for cooling purposes. If the brakes were used a lot during the ground manouevring, then they may have become hot....
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Spacepope
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RE: AF 95 MIA-CDG With Gear Down!

Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:51 am

The initial post makes it sould like it only had the nose gear down, but not the main gear. In that case, sounds a little odd. I'd like a few more details/clarification.
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OPNLguy
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RE: AF 95 MIA-CDG With Gear Down!

Thu Oct 26, 2006 8:04 am

Assuming all of them weren't down for cooling purposes as others of mentioned, they may have needed to re-cycle the gear for some reason.

In any event, if there had been a major problem where the gear would not retract, they'd have come back to MIA (or maybe gone to IAD or JFK) since you're not going to make it to CDG with gear hanging out. If they're continuing MIA-CDG, you can rest assured that whatever they needed to work out got worked out...

[Edit]
..and off to Paris they are:
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/AFR95

[Edited 2006-10-26 01:06:44]
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
twal1011727
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RE: AF 95 MIA-CDG With Gear Down!

Thu Oct 26, 2006 9:26 am

1) I seriously doubt a B747-400 can purposely leave a specific gear down (I.E. nose gear only etc.)

2) Unless the B747-400 is different than other past Boeings...they may not have nose gear brakes installed to need cooling off.

3) If the gear was stuck down after re-cycling it, they would either have to dump alot (and I mean ALOT) of fuel for a return to MIA or divert to another airport (airports already suggested.)

The flight tracker posted doesn't show a divert and the plane is past BDA, so it looks like they successfully mediated the problem and are pressing on to CDG.

Good luck AF

KD
 
legacy135
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RE: AF 95 MIA-CDG With Gear Down!

Thu Oct 26, 2006 9:42 am

I personally never flew a 747, but had on a C550 s/II as also on a IAI1125 one of the main gears not retracted after the cycle was completed. In both cases we lowered the gear again, retracted again and the problem was already solved.

I personally disagree with the theory of having them down for cooling:

1. This aircraft was heavy on take off, going for CDG. So take off performance is only granted by keeping to the procedures and this means "positive rate - gear up", otherwise the calculated profile can never ever be met.

2. If the brakes should be that hot by the time, the plane reaches the runway, then fire the crew immediately. This bird was completely mishandled. A take off under such circumstances wouldn't be possible, as hot brakes don't give the necessary performance at all. To be able to take off, brakes need to be fully functional, otherwise it's an unsafe procedure and forbidden. The only thing to do would be, to delay the take off until the brakes are cooled down to an acceptable temperature.

So it most probably was just a gear cycle, that didn't terminate properly, which was then corrected by the crew.


Cheers
Legacy135 Wink
 
OPNLguy
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RE: AF 95 MIA-CDG With Gear Down!

Thu Oct 26, 2006 10:01 am

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 6):
I personally never flew a 747,


Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 6):
then fire the crew immediately.



Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 6):
This bird was completely mishandled.

If you're really a corporate flight manager as your profile indicates, I find it odd that you'd make such sweeping statements, since, by your own admission, you've never flown the type aircraft involved. Neither have I, but that's besides the point, which is that there are things that are fully permissible and legal based upon the AFMs, MELs, QRHs and other documents of a particular aircraft type that can easily be different from your own.

There was just a thread in Tech Ops about the practice:
http://www.airliners.net/discussions/tech_ops/read.main/167602/

[Edited 2006-10-26 03:02:41]
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
delawareusa
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RE: AF 95 MIA-CDG With Gear Down!

Thu Oct 26, 2006 10:26 am

Could have blown an tire late in take off run, and left gear down to cool tire. It is safer to cool tire, then fly on to destination to burn off fuel then to return for a heavy landing.
 
TokyoNarita
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RE: AF 95 MIA-CDG With Gear Down!

Thu Oct 26, 2006 11:09 am

Just as a reference, there is an item on B757 landing gear system that may be inoperative if the flight kept the landing gear down for certain amount of time after departure to allow cooling. It is something out of the ordinary but certainly not an emergency. Same goes for the CRJ200. On certain occasions, the takeoff has to be conducted with landing gear down for the first 10 minutes due to an inoperative item in its landing gear system, also to allow cooling with all of the necessary penalties applied in performance for leaving the gear down. All safe operation and in compliance.

TokyoNarita.

[Edited 2006-10-26 04:15:02]
 
Pihero
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RE: AF 95 MIA-CDG With Gear Down!

Thu Oct 26, 2006 11:35 am

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 6):
1. This aircraft was heavy on take off, going for CDG. So take off performance is only granted by keeping to the procedures and this means "positive rate - gear up", otherwise the calculated profile can never ever be met.

...and after having established a clean climb, one gets the gear down for cooling. Simple . Only non professionals assume otherwise.

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 6):
2. If the brakes should be that hot by the time, the plane reaches the runway, then fire the crew immediately

What do you know about handling a taxying airplane ?
We see "brakes hot " everyday . A long taxy to the runway and the brakes could reach 150°c. If you have a down slope, it could be much higher.

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 6):
A take off under such circumstances wouldn't be possible, as hot brakes don't give the necessary performance at all.

I've got news for you : hot brakes work better than cold ones. Our limiting factor is reaching 200°c on the take off roll. In this case, you're very likely be seeing a brakes hot message during climb, and the procedure is to lower the gear for cooling, but a pilot worthy of that name would already planned for that maneuver.

Regards
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777
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RE: AF 95 MIA-CDG With Gear Down!

Thu Oct 26, 2006 5:54 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 10):
Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 6):
1. This aircraft was heavy on take off, going for CDG. So take off performance is only granted by keeping to the procedures and this means "positive rate - gear up", otherwise the calculated profile can never ever be met.

...and after having established a clean climb, one gets the gear down for cooling. Simple . Only non professionals assume otherwise.

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 6):
2. If the brakes should be that hot by the time, the plane reaches the runway, then fire the crew immediately

What do you know about handling a taxying airplane ?
We see "brakes hot " everyday . A long taxy to the runway and the brakes could reach 150°c. If you have a down slope, it could be much higher.

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 6):
A take off under such circumstances wouldn't be possible, as hot brakes don't give the necessary performance at all.

I've got news for you : hot brakes work better than cold ones. Our limiting factor is reaching 200°c on the take off roll. In this case, you're very likely be seeing a brakes hot message during climb, and the procedure is to lower the gear for cooling, but a pilot worthy of that name would already planned for that maneuver.

Regards

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dispatchguy
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RE: AF 95 MIA-CDG With Gear Down!

Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:58 pm

According to the Boeing B747-400 Dispatch Deviation Guide (dated 6/29/2000):

M32-41-1 Wheel Brakes, 16 installed, 14 required

If this MEL is applied, you are to keep the gear extended for 2 minutes minimum after takeoff to allow the affected wheels to spin down before retraction, as in normal conditions, the main wheel brakes are applied upon gear retraction to slow the main gear down before retraction, whereas the nose gear wheels have snubbers to rub against in the nose wheel well. There are performance restrictions when this MEL is applied to insure adequate second segment climb performance with the gear extended. The weight penalty for main wheel brakes deactivated or capped is only about 5500 kgs per brake. There are other MEL items which also require a brake to be deactivated - the worst in terms of performance penaly is anti-skid.

Someone opines that the aircraft was "heavy" on takeoff, since it was going to CDG. I am sure that AF adhered to all of the requirements of their minimum equipment list, and the Airplane Flight Manual before dispatching the aircraft.
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boeingfixer
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RE: AF 95 MIA-CDG With Gear Down!

Thu Oct 26, 2006 8:36 pm

The 744 Non Normal Checklist states that if the crew receives an EICAS BRAKE TEMP message they do the following;

1. Lower Landing Gear
2. Leave extended for 8 minutes.
3. Raise Landing Gear

Usually if it's a long, heavy weight taxi, the brake temps will be high. The crew can't take off with a BRAKE TEMP message illuminated(70 minute minimum cool down period) but if they are good at their job, they will anticipate getting the EICAS message in flight, if the temps are up there, and leave the gear down for 8 minutes. If they retracted them right away they are likely to get the BRAKE TEMP message and will have to lower the gear again according to the BRAKE TEMP NNC.
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Curmudgeon
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RE: AF 95 MIA-CDG With Gear Down!

Thu Oct 26, 2006 9:22 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 10):



Quoting Pihero (Reply 10):
Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 6):
1. This aircraft was heavy on take off, going for CDG. So take off performance is only granted by keeping to the procedures and this means "positive rate - gear up", otherwise the calculated profile can never ever be met.

Bizarre statement, Legacy135. In a multi-engined aircraft, as I'm sure it has by now dawned on you, the take-off and departure profiles assume a performance degradation due to thrust loss, so ample buffer exists for a higher drag profile. If a subsequent thrust loss were to occur the gear would have to be retracted, but the risk of this would be factored into the procedure.
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jfk777
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RE: AF 95 MIA-CDG With Gear Down!

Thu Oct 26, 2006 9:31 pm

Hey its been hot in Miami for obvious reasons. If this had been some true emergency the local tablood new channel would have been all over this. "Air France Jumbo whose wheels don't work"
 
miamiair
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RE: AF 95 MIA-CDG With Gear Down!

Thu Oct 26, 2006 10:03 pm

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 15):
Hey its been hot in Miami for obvious reasons

Actually, it has been pretty cool the past two days...

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 6):

You call out "Positive Rate" before you raise the gear...
In this case, the gear was left out in the breeze to cool off.

Your post is: redflag 
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flylku
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RE: AF 95 MIA-CDG With Gear Down!

Thu Oct 26, 2006 10:55 pm

I was on my way to Singapore by way of ORD-HKG. The captain was emphatic that we get "32 Left full length". At the time this was the longest flight in the world and for a while they actually towed the aircraft out to the end of the runway and started the engines there to save fuel until they (United) realized this was potentially damaging to the airplane.

Anyway, the controller cleared us to taxi across 27 Left (?). We did so very slowly and I attribute this to the bird's weight and the Captain's desire to minimize the heat that breaking would generate when we would have to stop immediately on the other side of the crossing runway.

An AMR MD-80 was on final to 27 Left and given our slow progress across the runway performed a go around. Needless to say he was not pleased with the controller and let him know it.

Did I mention that we didn't make HKG non-stop. We landed in TPE for an unscheduled pit-stop.
...are we there yet?
 
Geo772
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RE: AF 95 MIA-CDG With Gear Down!

Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:05 am

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 16):
In this case, the gear was left out in the breeze to cool off.

Although a more normal reason to leave the gear down after takeoff would be a a brake is physically locked out (hydraulics removed from it) due to a leak. This is so the gear has a chance to drop spinning prior to retraction. Otherwise the gyroscopic effect of the wheel can cause all sorts of problems.
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Leezyjet
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RE: AF 95 MIA-CDG With Gear Down!

Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:30 am

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 6):
I personally disagree with the theory of having them down for cooling:

1. This aircraft was heavy on take off, going for CDG. So take off performance is only granted by keeping to the procedures and this means "positive rate - gear up", otherwise the calculated profile can never ever be met.

2. If the brakes should be that hot by the time, the plane reaches the runway, then fire the crew immediately. This bird was completely mishandled. A take off under such circumstances wouldn't be possible, as hot brakes don't give the necessary performance at all. To be able to take off, brakes need to be fully functional, otherwise it's an unsafe procedure and forbidden. The only thing to do would be, to delay the take off until the brakes are cooled down to an acceptable temperature.

I've never heard so much rubbish my life from a supposed proffesional.

As you stated :-

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 6):
I personally never flew a 747

How can you make such sweeping generailised statements that you would "fire the crew immediately" when you have no idea about the operating proceedures if that particular a/c type, and by the sounds of it any a/c type !!. I hope that you are never in charge of a flight operations department, as with your attitude you are a serious hazard to flight safety.

As has been stated multiple times, leaving the gear down is a common problem on a/c and happens on a daily basis due to hot brakes, as does malfunctions in the gear retraction cycle calling for a re-cycle of the landing gear to resolve the problem.

Quoting TWAL1011727 (Reply 5):
I seriously doubt a B747-400 can purposely leave a specific gear down

The A340 can, it is possible to leave the centre gear retracted.

 Smile
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CaptSkibi
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RE: AF 95 MIA-CDG With Gear Down!

Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:50 am

Perhaps it was to fly through a rain cloud, so AF thought they'd get the main gear washed, too?  mischievous 
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Pihero
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RE: AF 95 MIA-CDG With Gear Down!

Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:56 am

Quoting Dispatchguy (Reply 12):
M32-41-1 Wheel Brakes, 16 installed, 14 required



Quoting Dispatchguy (Reply 12):
There are performance restrictions when this MEL is applied to insure adequate second segment climb performance with the gear extended. The weight penalty for main wheel brakes deactivated or capped is only about 5500 kgs per brake. There are other MEL items which also require a brake to be deactivated

Quite right. On the 343, this deactivated main gear brake is the most limiting as you do not retract the gear and your climb segments performance fall to pieces. The fall in TOW could be in the region of forty,40, tons !
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ptharris
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RE: AF 95 MIA-CDG With Gear Down!

Fri Oct 27, 2006 4:07 am

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 6):

Wow. I'm in no way an expert and what you say doesn't make any sense. Please let us know when you're behind the controls so I can take the next flight.

Oh my...  scared 
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Captain.MD-11
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RE: AF 95 MIA-CDG With Gear Down!

Fri Oct 27, 2006 4:23 am

It is also possible on the DC-30 and (I believe) MD-11 to retract the centre gear unit, baring in mind certain weight restrictions.
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legacy135
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RE: AF 95 MIA-CDG With Gear Down!

Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:06 am

Wow, my post really attacted the experts. Additionally many of you are that charming and objective, it's just a pleasure. But sure, running after a modest guy who calls himself somewhat similar like "Pilot Hero" makes complete sense:

I do appologize, I didn't realize that this aircraft was on a taxi, down the slopes at MIA Intl airport. Here for sure, the brakes will get real hot.

I do appologize, I didn't realize that real aircrafts do have individual gear selectors for each single gear. This plane we are talking about obviously did have one gear down, the others up. So this obviopusly was the hot one, the others for sure were retracted....

I do appologize, I didn't realize that it is an absolutely normal procedure to leave the gears down for cooling. Even though, if I don't fly an aircraft that has such a procedure, I spent roughly 5000 hours on commercials as passenger the past years. It is obvious, that with such little time of ground, I never could run into such a situation.

I do appologize that I didn't realize that a good brake needs to be hot to work, as Pilot Hero says. That's why annunciators start to flush. Amber is the color that stuff needs to be, otherwise ti's no good.
Maybe somebody mixed somthing here with temperatures of carbon brakes. They indeed get sharper, becoming hotter. But they run out of effectifiness as well, once they are real hot. But that's a detail and nothing else.

I do appologize I didn't realize that it is a real good practice to stand all the way down on the brakes and heating them up. It is for sure a great procedure, t least for the manufacturer of the brakes, as he can ship an new set out right away!

If there is anything else I can appologize for, I sure do it.............



Now lets come back to the serious part: I do admit, I didn't realize that it can come to situations, the gear on certain heavy needs to be lowered after take off, in order to cool the brakes down. This is a fact.
But I am pretty sure, it's a fact as well, this is an abnormal procedure, following an abnormal situation. Something went wrong before, otherwise those brakes would not be that hot. If there is no dirt in the linings and if they were not fitted wrong by the mechanics, it is hard to see, that the crew did just all great. It is a simple truth, standing all time on the brakes isn't the best technique. There might be a situation asking for this, but its not the normal case.

And sorry guys, if you crew stands on those rakes all the way down to the runway, untill they are overheat and takes off like this, having those brakes in an overtemp situation, I can't see what should be good about that. Just to make it clear, I never assumed that the crew of the flight, discussed here did so. Obviously they had one gear down, what looks like a malfunction, at least to me....... I am happy to learn more if some of you disagree anyhow.

To come to an end:

I did NOT assult the crew of this AF flight. I never assumed that they did something wrong.
I did NOT realize that a heavy can come in an ABNORMAL situation they need to lower the gear. I do appologize for and I am always happy to learn more.
I did express that a crew, violating a brake into overtemp, taking off out of permissable values and cooling then wheels down, can be laid off or what ever. They are not assumed to intentionally violate rules period.

Thats about it......... all the nice flowers came then from other great aviators. They might recommend me to look up technical publications of heavy equipement. I eventually will, it's always a good thing to know more than necessary. I for my part would recommend those guys, using their time to study maybe something about teamwork and communication. This can prevent you from crashing as well  Smile

Now I hope you all have a great evening. See you guys,

Legacy135 Wink
 
N62NA
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RE: AF 95 MIA-CDG With Gear Down!

Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:43 am

Wow, in just 24 hours this thread has logged 12258+ reads! All from little old me looking out my Miami Beach balcony on a Wednesday afternoon!  Smile
 
EMBQA
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RE: AF 95 MIA-CDG With Gear Down!

Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:53 am

Quoting N62NA (Reply 25):
Wow, in just 24 hours this thread has logged 12258+ reads

That is because your title is VERY misleading and inaccurate. What you saw last night is a very-very common departure technique. The gear are left down to cool after a longer then normal taxi. If you look at last nights flight track then plane was up to 36,000 feet and crusing at .85 mach. NONE of which could accure with the gear down.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
N62NA
Topic Author
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RE: AF 95 MIA-CDG With Gear Down!

Fri Oct 27, 2006 9:16 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 26):
That is because your title is VERY misleading and inaccurate.

As they used to say in the Southern part of the USA, "Them's fighting words!"

However, I won't get into a fight with you. I didn't think it was a misleading title when I wrote it and still don't think it is.

I've lived here for 3+ years and have a birds-eye view of MIA departures which is one of the reasons I love the location I live in so much. I spend WAAAYYYY too much time with my binoculars watching departures each day.

I have never seen this before, so while it might be a fairly common event around the world, it's the first time I ever saw something like that and I would venture to say most people on here can't say that they've ever seen a commercial plane on departure 12 miles from the airport at 5,000 feet headed out to sea with at least the front landing gear still down.
 
EMBQA
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RE: AF 95 MIA-CDG With Gear Down!

Fri Oct 27, 2006 9:28 am

Quoting N62NA (Reply 27):
I didn't think it was a misleading title when I wrote it and still don't think it is.

Your title is worded as a statement and as fact. Neither of which is true.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
OPNLguy
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RE: AF 95 MIA-CDG With Gear Down!

Fri Oct 27, 2006 9:29 am

Maybe it's just me, but I think the title had two interpretations.

I'm sure you typed what you did in the context of trying to identify the flight...

Some interpreted it as a conclusion, i.e. that they were going to try and operate MIA-CDG with the gear stuck down, which obviously wasn't going to happen for reasons already discussed.

Maybe a better title might have been a more neutral "Extended gear after departure on AF95 on Oct. 25th" and then you could have gone on in the message body to provide more detailed info and ask your question.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
Pihero
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RE: AF 95 MIA-CDG With Gear Down!

Fri Oct 27, 2006 10:12 am

Quoting Legacy135 (Reply 24):
Wow, my post really attacted the experts. Additionally many of you are that charming and objective, it's just a pleasure. But sure, running after a modest guy who calls himself somewhat similar like "Pilot Hero" makes complete sense:

The problem with you is that you assume, without any proof (1) that the crew mishandled the "bird", and (2) trhat they were acting rashly.In this case, unacceptable.
Aircrew procedures are divided into four baskets :
1/- Normal procedures
2/- Non normal procedures, which are a slight divergence from "standard operational procedures, or SOPs", and annonced as "NOn standard procedure...gear down (before the flaps for instance ".
3/- Abnormal procedures, which deal with a failed equipment
4/- Emergency procedures (self explanatory).
Guess where the "Brake Hot" procedure is.

I have to admit I had a laugh as to your interpretation of my pseudo. I need to see my favorite shrink about unconsciously inflated ego. Here, again you assume because, coming from one of the countries where people speak at least two languages as a matter of course, you could understand that it's a play on the two first letters of my name components : PIerre HErvé ROland, and the result is pronounced like "Pierrot", the moonlight dreamer in love with an unreachable girl called Columbine.
So much for your psychology and your communications skills !
Contrail designer
 
OPNLguy
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RE: AF 95 MIA-CDG With Gear Down!

Fri Oct 27, 2006 10:27 am

Quoting Pihero (Reply 30):
So much for your psychology and your communications skills !

Misspelling "apologize" as "appologize seven times is a great way for him to impress "senior management" at his outfit, no?  Wink
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
legacy135
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RE: AF 95 MIA-CDG With Gear Down!

Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:59 pm

Hi Pierre,

Quoting Pihero (Reply 30):
The problem with you is that you assume

Once again, I did NOT say that this Crew here of AF95 did mishandle their plane. I actually stated more than one that I DON't think that they did and so assumed a malfunction. If understood the other way round, SORRY guys.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 30):
your interpretation of my pseudo

 Wink ..........I have to admit that I did this in a "destructing way of creativity", as you called me a big idiot that better stays on ground. But don't worry about. I probably didn't explain myself real clear, neither did you ever assume this. So what, if I offended you, Sorry about.
I do absolutely agree with your explanation of cockpit procedures. But please accept, my idea was never to assult the crew of AF95 as I speculated of a gear simply remaining out.

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 31):
Misspelling "apologize" as "appologize

Thank you very much for your indeed valuable addition, I do apologize having little knowledge of this language. If you prefer next time to conduct the discussion in another one, make a proposal.

Cheers
Legacy135 Wink
 
Pihero
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RE: AF 95 MIA-CDG With Gear Down!

Fri Oct 27, 2006 7:02 pm

This is a lesson to me, as I didn't check your country of origin and I assumed(!!!) you had English as a mother-tongue.
My apologies and regards.
Contrail designer
 
ptharris
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RE: AF 95 MIA-CDG With Gear Down!

Wed Nov 01, 2006 4:29 pm

I'm sorry too.  ouch 

Figured since everyone was saying they were sorry, I didn't want to be left out.

 duck 
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