FlySSC
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Air France To BEY : First Post War Results

Thu Oct 26, 2006 8:46 pm

Everything started very well for Air France in Lebanon, for the first 6 months of this year 2006 :

While the global Lebanese market was showing a 13% growth during the first 3 months of 2006 and + 18% during the second trimester, Air France posted a turnover increased by 54% and 36% during the same periods.

AF market share increased by 12% during the first trimester and 14 % during the second one.

Then, following the Israeli agression in July, everything stopped.
AF resumed the flights to BEY after 56 days of interruption on September 8th, with 5 x Weekly flights. The program went back to normal starting October 1st with a Daily B773ER (in addition to the 2 MEA's daily flights, operated in codeshare). The AF Crew is even staying again in Beirut during the 24 hours layover.

Despite all the difficulties, and a Lebanese market drop of 24%, AF's load factor reached 77% in september, with a progression of 3%
the load factor for October should be even higher, despite a slower activity due to the Ramadan.
The reservations rate for November and Decembre is also very encouraging, and despite a drop of 24% of the annual turnover of the line CDG-BEY-CDG, AF plans to achieve its annual goal of benefits for the line.

Following the pull out of KLM from BEY, AF & MEA had planned to introduce a 4th Daily flight to CDG, operated by AF, and a new organization of the schedule.
This plan is, for the moment, suspended.


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FlySSC
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RE: Air France To BEY : First Post War Results

Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:11 pm

Starting tomorrow Oct.29th, AF will fly Nonstop CDG-JED-CDG, 4 x Weekly with an A319ER "Dedicate".
JED was previously with a stop in CAI (A332)

The A319ER "Dedicate" nonstop service to RUH will be upgraded to 6 x Weekly.

CAI will now be served 10 x Weekly :
a Daily AF508/AF503 and a 3 x Weekly AF524/AF521 with a mix of A332/A343


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jacobin777
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RE: Air France To BEY : First Post War Results

Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:42 pm

FlySSC....this is great to hear that things are returning to "normal"...I for one cannot wait to fly to BEY sometime in the near future (and support Lebanon)...I'm very excited..I hope AF/MEA do well.. Smile

CDG-JED-CDG..interesting..especially on an A319..bit long, but "do-able" I guess...transcon in the United States is quite far also, and there are mostly single-isle planes on those routes...

Cheers!
"Up the Irons!"
 
FlySSC
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RE: Air France To BEY : First Post War Results

Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:20 am

CDG-JED = 2751mi / 4428km / 2391nm

JFK-SFO = 2586mi / 4162km / 2247nm
LAX-SJO = 2722mi / 4380km
NRT-SGN = 2722mi / 4380km

The longest flight operated by AF's A319ER "Dedicate" is CDG-PNR (Pointe Noire / Congo) = 3748mi / 6032km
 
goldorak
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RE: Air France To BEY : First Post War Results

Sun Oct 29, 2006 6:24 am

great news FlySSC. If the planes have good load factors, it's a good sign of things returning to normal or almost normal.
 
ETStar
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RE: Air France To BEY : First Post War Results

Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:32 pm

Ethiopian is also going to operate 4x per week to Beirut by year's end, and even increase to 5x in the new year.
 
AF022
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RE: Air France To BEY : First Post War Results

Sun Oct 29, 2006 5:35 pm

According to the winter season, ET's 4th flight starts today - the first day of the IATA winter season - and the fifth flight starts in December.
 
airlinefreak1
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RE: Air France To BEY : First Post War Results

Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:38 pm

thats excellent news .

another note , how is AF doing on the DXB route ? are they exceeding their expectations ? KL reduced the frequency of the second flight .
any news ?
F,J and Y cabins - r they usually full ?

much appreciated
 
GoMEA
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RE: Air France To BEY : First Post War Results

Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:49 pm

Great news FlySSC!

I presume ME should have similar figures on the BEY-CDG route.

I flew BEY-CDG-BEY on Sep 28-Oct 1 on both ME211 and ME 210 and flights were full. Lots of transiting pax from north America on ME 210 CDG-BEY and pilgrims to JED.

Let's hope they get the 4th frequency (with smaller airplanes, I acknowledge) as there are no late flights from CDG to BEY and no late flights from BEY to CDG
MEA raising the Cedar far up in the sky
 
BA
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RE: Air France To BEY : First Post War Results

Mon Oct 30, 2006 7:12 am

Thanks for the update FlySSC. I'm glad to see they are doing reasonably well.

Out of curiousity, what aircraft did they have planned for the 4th daily flight? How would it affect the 773ER on their existing daily?

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
FlySSC
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RE: Air France To BEY : First Post War Results

Mon Oct 30, 2006 5:44 pm

Quoting BA (Reply 9):
Out of curiousity, what aircraft did they have planned for the 4th daily flight? How would it affect the 773ER on their existing daily?

To face the increasing demand (before July 2006) the program was to add this 4th frequency with an A332, the other "regular" AF566/AF565 beeing changed for a B772ER.

The AF332 would have operated a late afternoon departure from CDG to arrive in BEY around 11:00PM and operate the "red eye" flight on the way back to CDG, replacing the MEA's A321.
This "red eye" flight is very popular, always full and the A321 is too small for it. I fly it regularly and 90% of the time on a jump-seat.

The MEA A321 would have operate a late departure from BEY (around 6:00PM) to arrive in CDG around 10:00PM (to connect with the late AF departure to GRU/GIG/HKG/LAD etc ...) and after an overnight at CDG, it would have operate, like today, the mid-morning flight at arount 11:00AM.
 
MEACEDAR
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RE: Air France To BEY : First Post War Results

Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:57 am

Did all the airlines resume service to Lebanon, except for KLM? And what airlines will make BEY a new route for them?
 
KL808
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RE: Air France To BEY : First Post War Results

Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:13 am

Question regarding MEA.

How are they doing? Is the airline back to normal operation?

How much of a hit did they take for the war?

Will we see any new plane orders to increase capacity?

Drew
AMS-LAX-MNL
 
salim
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RE: Air France To BEY : First Post War Results

Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:17 am

excellent I've always been waiting for afternoon flights
 
BA
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RE: Air France To BEY : First Post War Results

Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:40 am

Quoting KL808 (Reply 12):
How are they doing? Is the airline back to normal operation?

Yes, the airline is back in normal operation and is operating its normal winter schedule.

Quoting KL808 (Reply 12):
How much of a hit did they take for the war?

They suffered a loss of $45 million during the war, but will report a profit of $10 million for the year 2006.

It's not much, but it's better than a loss.

Quoting KL808 (Reply 12):
Will we see any new plane orders to increase capacity?

Two days ago, the Lebanese newspaper Al-Balad ( http://www.albaladonline.com ) reported that MEA will soon announce an aircraft order for 8 aircraft to be delivered in 2008 and 2009 as well as 5 options for delivery in 2010 and 2011.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
BA
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RE: Air France To BEY : First Post War Results

Wed Nov 01, 2006 4:51 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 16):
But despite the restrictions at BEY, (due to the bombing of the fuel tanks of the airport ), AF signed a contract with a local Oil company that guarantees 20 tons of fuel for each flight if ever needed.

Interesting, thanks for the update.

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 16):
This order should have been announced earlier this year.
Considering the situation in Lebanon, it was not sure wether these new aircraft would be effectively ordered or not.

This order was actually being finalized in July and was going to be formally announced at the 2006 Farnborough Air Show (July 17-23), but obviously had to be put off as a result of the war.

Last month (late September), they decided that they will go ahead with the order, but were going to decide whether to go ahead with the initially planned order or change it in some way.

The Al-Balad newspaper article two days ago stated that MEA will go ahead with the original order it had planned.

If anyone wants to read the article, I uploaded them to ImageShack, but they are in Arabic:

http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/397/10vn2.jpg
http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/9265/11mj6.jpg

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 16):
I heard the project of a regional airline, joint venture with Syria, long time expected has been suspended.

Any news, BA ?

I haven't heard anything about it in almost a year now. It certainly wouldn't surprise me if it was canceled. Lebanese-Syrian relations have continued to deteriorate and it is definitely not the right time to launch a joint Lebanese-Syrian airline.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
FlySSC
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RE: Air France To BEY : First Post War Results

Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:12 am

Quoting BA (Reply 17):
I haven't heard anything about it in almost a year now. It certainly wouldn't surprise me if it was canceled. Lebanese-Syrian relations have continued to deteriorate and it is definitely not the right time to launch a joint Lebanese-Syrian airline.

Right.
Actually I heard some rumors that MEA could finally launch this subsidiary, sort of "MEA Express" alone with the help of French investments, probably AF support, and a French and Lebanese Bank.
 
cedars747
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RE: Air France To BEY : First Post War Results

Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:13 am

Amazing news FlySSC
Where have you been before....I needed some doses of these updates from time to time. Air France is the best friend for Lebanon and MEA ,in good times and bad times
Good luck for Air France and here sister MEA  Wink
By the way what about MEA and Skyteam...........please some updates Pedro
Salut depuis la Norvége !
Alex!!!
Tengo una pasion por la aviacion !لدي شغف للطيران !I have a passion for aviation !Jeg har en lidenskap for luftfart!j'ai
 
BA
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RE: Air France To BEY : First Post War Results

Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:17 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 18):
Actually I heard some rumors that MEA could finally launch this subsidiary, sort of "MEA Express" alone with the help of French investments, probably AF support, and a French and Lebanese Bank.

I guess this is possible. MEA was in negotiations with Embraer until recently as they were interested in their E-Jets, specifically the EMB-190/195, however, I think they ruled them out in favor of A319s as the upcoming order should include some A319s.

But I guess we'll see.

I think an "MEA Express" with Q400s would be ideal.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
KL808
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RE: Air France To BEY : First Post War Results

Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:31 am

Hey BA

What exactly would the 8 new aircrafts comprise of?

will there be any additional A330's?

Thanks

Drew
AMS-LAX-MNL
 
BA
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RE: Air France To BEY : First Post War Results

Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:48 am

Quoting KL808 (Reply 21):
What exactly would the 8 new aircrafts comprise of?

will there be any additional A330's?

Back in July shortly before the order was initially going to be placed, the Lebanese French newspaper, L'Orient-Le Jour ( http://www.lorientlejour.com ) had mentioneed that the order will be for 4 narrowbody aircraft and 4 widebody aircraft.

In the BeirutSpotters group, a few insiders mentioned that it will be for 4 A330-200s and 4 A319-100s OR a combination of 4 A319-100s and A320-200s, but this is not official information.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
FlySSC
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RE: Air France To BEY : First Post War Results

Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:57 am

I don't see MEA adding 4 A332 ... especially now.
I think 1 A332 and a mix of A320/A319 is more likely.

Quoting BA (Reply 20):
I think an "MEA Express" with Q400s would be ideal.

I'd see a fleet of R.J such as CRJ100/700 or ERJ135/145 rather than turboprop.
 
BA
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RE: Air France To BEY : First Post War Results

Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:06 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 23):
I don't see MEA adding 4 A332 ... especially now.
I think 1 A332 and a mix of A320/A319 is more likely.

The original order was for 4 narrowbodies and 4 widebodies though, so if MEA is going ahead with its initial plans (which is what it sounds like), it can't be 1 A330-200 with the rest being A319/A320s.

I forgot to mention that the plan before the war was for 3 of the 4 A330-200s to replace the existing 3 ILFC-leased A330-200s.

The reasons why they want to do this is so that MEA can own its entire fleet since the existing 3 A330s are leased from ILFC. The other reason is so they can introduce a lower density higher quality interior that better fits MEA's strategy.

But again, these were the plans before the war. They may have changed them and they may have not...

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 23):
I'd see a fleet of R.J such as CRJ100/700 or ERJ135/145 rather than turboprop.

Perhaps, and this would be more appealing from a passenger's perspective, but I think Q400s would make more sense for nearby routes like DAM, ALP, etc.

However, it all depends how important operating costs are for MEA. On short routes, the economics of turboprops are far superior to regional jets which is why small regional jets (less than 70 seats) are beginning to see a downturn while turboprops are starting to see a revival. Rising oil prices have given turboprops a new jumpstart.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
FlySSC
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RE: Air France To BEY : First Post War Results

Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:25 am

Quoting BA (Reply 24):
Perhaps, and this would be more appealing from a passenger's perspective, but I think Q400s would make more sense for nearby routes like DAM, ALP

For flights to DAM, ALP, LCA, of course, Q400s or ATR42/72 would be pefect.
However, to extend the "Regional" notion to CAI, ALY, AMM, AYT, ADA, even BGW, a turboprop is definately inapropriate.

http://www.cardatabase.net/modifiedairlinerphotos/photos/big/00003788.jpg
 
MEACEDAR
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RE: Air France To BEY : First Post War Results

Wed Nov 01, 2006 7:03 am

MEA should use the planes they are flying now to airports like AMM and LCA for extra flights between CDG and possibly open a route to AMS. I think it would be the best choice for MEA to open a "MEA Express" and use the ERJ135/145 for routes to airports like AMM, LCA, and possibly CAI.
 
BA
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RE: Air France To BEY : First Post War Results

Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:54 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 25):
However, to extend the "Regional" notion to CAI, ALY, AMM, AYT, ADA, even BGW, a turboprop is definately inapropriate.

I agree with you here. I think this is why the upcoming order will supposidly include A319s.

The A319 is of course much bigger than a regional jet, but it was supposidly picked over the EMB-190/195 which MEA was seriously looking at.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
FlySSC
Topic Author
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RE: Air France To BEY : First Post War Results

Wed Nov 01, 2006 7:53 pm

I just can't can't wait to see those littles busses with MEA !  hyper 

Now, if only someone could convince M. El-Hout to change the boring colors and livery of MEA for something more reflecting This wonderul country and the Lebanese Identity ... I don't want to start again here the debate on the name (inapropriate, in my opinion) of MEA that could be changed also ... but defenately, something should be done for the livery !

 duck 

http://www.cardatabase.net/modifiedairlinerphotos/photos/big/00005945.jpg
 
goldorak
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RE: Air France To BEY : First Post War Results

Wed Nov 01, 2006 8:07 pm

Good idea
MEA should hire you as their "livery-designer" and corporate image VP !!
But please do not accept. Otherwise who'll inform us of what's on-going at AF !!
 bouncy 
 
FlySSC
Topic Author
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RE: Air France To BEY : First Post War Results

Wed Nov 01, 2006 8:45 pm

Quoting Goldorak (Reply 27):
MEA should hire you as their "livery-designer" and corporate image VP

Goldorak, I didn't do it ! I am not so talented unfortunuately ... and if I would do it, I would change the MEA name also !  stirthepot 
 
MEACEDAR
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RE: Air France To BEY : First Post War Results

Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:53 am

Quoting BA (Reply 25):
The A319 is of course much bigger than a regional jet, but it was supposidly picked over the EMB-190/195 which MEA was seriously looking at.

The EMB195 carries about 111 people on the average and the A319 carries 125 people on the average. Not that much of a differnce.
 
FlySSC
Topic Author
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RE: Air France To BEY : First Post War Results

Thu Nov 02, 2006 1:27 am

The Emb195 is a standard 108 seater.
The A319 accomodates 124 PAX in a standard 2 Class, and up to 142 in a single Y Class (AF is using such a version on its domestic network).

Considering that MEA accomodates only 31J/118Y in its A321*, I think the A319 is a very smart and logical choice : better range, larger aircraft, better comfort, and substantial savings in operations and maintenance, thanks to the entire commonality with the A321 and A332 (same pilots, same engines, etc ...).

*
Air Canada's A321 have 24J/142Y
Spirit's A321 have 16C/182Y
 
MEACEDAR
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RE: Air France To BEY : First Post War Results

Thu Nov 02, 2006 1:42 am

How much is the A319 and the EMB195? Is there much difference in price. Can MEA even afford it right now? I know they lease but can they AFFORD it?
 
BA
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Joined: Fri May 19, 2000 11:06 am

RE: Air France To BEY : First Post War Results

Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:27 pm

Quoting MEACEDAR (Reply 31):
How much is the A319 and the EMB195? Is there much difference in price.

A319s are around $52 million.

EMB-195s are cheaper, but I'm not sure exactly how much. If I had to take a guess, probably somewhere around $40 million.

Quoting MEACEDAR (Reply 31):
Can MEA even afford it right now? I know they lease but can they AFFORD it?

Yes, they can. These 8 aircraft will be bought and not leased.

Airlines don't necessarily pay upfront the entire price of the aircraft. They finance them over several years which is what MEA is doing with its 6 A321s (I believe for a period of 10 years).

MEA will definitely be financing these 8 aircraft over several years.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
MOE777
Posts: 48
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 2:04 pm

RE: Air France To BEY : First Post War Results

Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:39 pm

According to Wikipedia, German carrier Hapagfly is to commence flight's to
Beirut airport as of today, any confirmation of this?
 
BA
Posts: 10133
Joined: Fri May 19, 2000 11:06 am

RE: Air France To BEY : First Post War Results

Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:48 pm

Quoting MOE777 (Reply 33):
According to Wikipedia, German carrier Hapagfly is to commence flight's to
Beirut airport as of today, any confirmation of this?

No, it's been canceled as a result of the war.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
WesternA318
Posts: 4465
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 11:55 am

RE: Air France To BEY : First Post War Results

Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:54 pm

Quoting BA (Reply 14):
Two days ago, the Lebanese newspaper Al-Balad ( http://www.albaladonline.com ) reported that MEA will soon announce an aircraft order for 8 aircraft to be delivered in 2008 and 2009 as well as 5 options for delivery in 2010 and 2011.

LOL, I should have just kept reading...

Quoting BA (Reply 20):
In the BeirutSpotters group, a few insiders mentioned that it will be for 4 A330-200s and 4 A319-100s OR a combination of 4 A319-100s and A320-200s, but this is not official information.

BA, I'd LOve to see MEA get more 332's...simply beautiful machines...

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 26):
Now, if only someone could convince M. El-Hout to change the boring colors and livery of MEA for something more reflecting This wonderul country and the Lebanese Identity ... I don't want to start again here the debate on the name (inapropriate, in my opinion) of MEA that could be changed also ... but defenately, something should be done for the livery !

I wouldnt seeing a modernized return of the cheatline!
Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
 
raffik
Posts: 1530
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 9:50 am

RE: Air France To BEY : First Post War Results

Fri Nov 03, 2006 4:15 am

How are ME's load factors? They were quite high before the war, and I guess the war damaged the airport's plan to turn BEY into a West Med hub.
- Alec
 
MEACEDAR
Posts: 682
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:57 am

RE: Air France To BEY : First Post War Results

Fri Nov 03, 2006 5:52 am

Quoting Raffik (Reply 36):
I guess the war damaged the airport's plan to turn BEY into a West Med hub.

Unfortuantely, yes.

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