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N328KF
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Virgin Atlantic Delays A380 EIS To 2013

Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:41 am

Brief fair use excerpt from The Wall Street Journal:

Quote:
LONDON (Dow Jones)--Virgin Atlantic Airways Ltd. said Thursday it has reached an agreement with Airbus to defer deliveries of the six double-decker A380 airplanes it has on order until 2013.

http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20061026-714994.html
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clickhappy
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Delays A380 EIS To 2013

Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:43 am

Wow. Huge news, thanks for the link.

6-7 years from now. That's a long time.
 
ba319-131
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Delays A380 EIS To 2013

Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:46 am

Interesting news.

Either they can't fill them year round or want to see how she gets on once in service.

Interesting indeed!
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Richard28
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Delays A380 EIS To 2013

Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:47 am

I guess this will help Airbus free up some earlier delivery slots to other carriers who have already ordered the A380.

I cant read the Wall Street Journal link as it requires login, does the article say how VS will cope with growth in the interim?

Other orders perhaps?
 
jacobin777
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Delays A380 EIS To 2013

Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:48 am

When was VS originally suppose to receive the frames?
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Delays A380 EIS To 2013

Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:51 am

Quoting Richard28 (Reply 3):
I cant read the Wall Street Journal link as it requires login, does the article say how VS will cope with growth in the interim?

I actually posted the whole article. It's short.
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Delays A380 EIS To 2013

Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:51 am

Marketwatch

The privately held airline said by then, the A380 will have proved its "innovative design.

The deferral will allow Airbus to prioritize production and deliveries for launch customers such as Singapore Airlines, Virgin said.




The article also stated that Virgin Atlantic Airways would extend leases on its B747-400 aircraft.

Virgin Atlantic Airways is 49% owned by Singapore Airlines Limited - A Member of Star Alliance
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ikramerica
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Delays A380 EIS To 2013

Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:10 am

Well, the conversion to A330s didn't happen. Nor A340s.

Sounds like VS will be buying some Boeings soon, or these might get converted to 350X-10 at a later date.

Deferring these jets this long only confirms to me that they don't want/need them at all.
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jacobin777
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Delays A380 EIS To 2013

Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:11 am

Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 7):
The airline had ordered six of the new superjumbos for delivery in 2009, but now wants to delay their arrival till 2013.

Thanks.. checkmark 
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scouseflyer
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Delays A380 EIS To 2013

Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:15 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 8):
Sounds like VS will be buying some Boeings soon, or these might get converted to 350X-10 at a later date

Not necessarily so - it may be convenient for them to drop down the queue and save the cash - how are they doing financially?
 
B707Stu
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Delays A380 EIS To 2013

Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:38 am

I'm sure this is going to get spun in every possible direction.

The bottom line? VS wants to see how this plane does without risking operational nightmares and potential loss to the bottom line. Pretty smart move.
 
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Delays A380 EIS To 2013

Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:42 am

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 10):
Not necessarily so - it may be convenient for them to drop down the queue and save the cash - how are they doing financially?

As far as we can tell with a private company they are doing fine. The reality of the situation is that they don't need them and they don't want the early ones because they have concerns about things such as separation, performance, maintainability. (IMHO)
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avianca707359b
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Delays A380 EIS To 2013

Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:50 am

Since Virgin is 49% owned by Singapore Air, could they have been "encouraged" to step to the back of the line to make room for SQ? Just a thought....
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Shenzhen
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Delays A380 EIS To 2013

Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:52 am

Looking at the new delivery date one might think that they no longer want these airplanes, and will change the order to the new A350..... Isn't this the second "Virgin" intiated slide in delivery?

Cheers
 
zvezda
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Delays A380 EIS To 2013

Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:56 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 8):
Sounds like VS will be buying some Boeings soon, or these might get converted to 350X-10 at a later date.

Deferring these jets this long only confirms to me that they don't want/need them at all.

I think you're right. Airlines almost never cancel Airbus or Boeing orders outright. They are nearly always cancel by converting to another model. Clearly, VS have no use for A320s. Airbus offer no competitive widebody right now to which VS could have converted their WhaleJet order. Hence, if VS want to cancel, the only logical route at this time is to defer until there is an A350 to order in its place.
 
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Delays A380 EIS To 2013

Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:29 am

I'm completely mystified by the deferral. What does VS gain? Aren't they still contractually obligated to take delivery, no matter what, by 2013? Why wouldn't they want the aircraft sooner for capacity and growth? Extending the leases on the 744's means they'll be "running in place".  Confused
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Delays A380 EIS To 2013

Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:32 am

Sounds interesting. Maybe the A380 doesn't look good in VS future fleet.
 
osiris30
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Delays A380 EIS To 2013

Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:32 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 16):
I'm completely mystified by the deferral. What does VS gain? Aren't they still contractually obligated to take delivery, no matter what, by 2013? Why wouldn't they want the aircraft sooner for capacity and growth? Extending the leases on the 744's means they'll be "running in place".

The deferral probably includes 'free out' clauses to transition to other products at that time. 2013 just happens to be roughly the 350 EIS. (funny that huh :P )
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BA787
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Delays A380 EIS To 2013

Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:34 am

Bit strange that!


Makes me wonder if they are waiting to see what move BA makes
 
thebry
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Delays A380 EIS To 2013

Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:36 am

Quoting Avianca707359B (Reply 13):
Since Virgin is 49% owned by Singapore Air, could they have been "encouraged" to step to the back of the line to make room for SQ? Just a thought....

I agree entirely. It makes sense that VS was "encouraged" to relinquish their slots for SQ. The Singapore Airlines brand has a larger stake in the A380 -- they were, after all, supposed to be "first to fly". They'll want a lot of these birds at airports in their livery as soon as they can get them. It'll be interesting to see how this unfolds once deliveries commence.
 
osiris30
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Delays A380 EIS To 2013

Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:41 am

Quoting Thebry (Reply 20):
I agree entirely. It makes sense that VS was "encouraged" to relinquish their slots for SQ. The Singapore Airlines brand has a larger stake in the A380 -- they were, after all, supposed to be "first to fly". They'll want a lot of these birds at airports in their livery as soon as they can get them. It'll be interesting to see how this unfolds once deliveries commence.

I *really* doubt Branson would play that game *if* he *really* wanted the 380s. The fact that he would play that game says to me 'we don't really want them... but we don't want to lose our pull with Airbus and cause a panic by cancelling them'.

It also says 'we don't want first run aircraft' to me.
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zvezda
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Delays A380 EIS To 2013

Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:47 am

Quoting Avianca707359B (Reply 13):
Since Virgin is 49% owned by Singapore Air, could they have been "encouraged" to step to the back of the line to make room for SQ?

I doubt it. If that were going on, SQ and VS would have simply swapped delivery slots.
 
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Delays A380 EIS To 2013

Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:47 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 21):
It also says 'we don't want first run aircraft' to me.

I think that has more to do with it.....recall, VS had a bit of issues with the A346 and I don't think they want to go through with that again...

I would be surprised if they cancelled their order in the future....but I guess when doesn't know as market dynamics always shift...
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slz396
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Delays A380 EIS To 2013

Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:48 am

Expect SQ to firm up their MoU for 9 additional A380s signed at Farnborough in the coming weeks, with pretty early delivery slots....
 
jacobin777
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Delays A380 EIS To 2013

Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:51 am

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 24):
Expect SQ to firm up their MoU for 9 additional A380s signed at Farnborough in the coming weeks, with pretty early delivery slots....

Do you have "inside" knowledge on it or are you just forming an opinion?
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hb88
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Delays A380 EIS To 2013

Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:53 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 23):
I think that has more to do with it.....recall, VS had a bit of issues with the A346 and I don't think they want to go through with that again...

You might be right, but then again, for an aircraft they are said frequently to be unhappy with, they have 17 with another 9 on order.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 23):
I would be surprised if they cancelled their order in the future....but I guess when doesn't know as market dynamics always shift...

I think this delay has come from market conditions. Perhaps VS want some breathing space? Who knows (we don't, that's for sure).
 
jacobin777
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Delays A380 EIS To 2013

Fri Oct 27, 2006 4:07 am

Quoting HB88 (Reply 27):
You might be right, but then again, for an aircraft they are said frequently to be unhappy with, they have 17 with another 9 on order.

It was only the "original teething" issues which VS had problems with..I never said it was a bad plane... Wink

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osiris30
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Delays A380 EIS To 2013

Fri Oct 27, 2006 4:11 am

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 28):
Euh, somebody is in URGENT need of some valium here, I think.

Why because I gave the plane as many letters in it's name as Airbus has given it design iterations? LOL  duck  By the way, can you answer the original question which was 'why do you think that?' rather than dodging it entirely?
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andessmf
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Delays A380 EIS To 2013

Fri Oct 27, 2006 4:12 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 8):
these might get converted to 350X-10 at a later date.

'4 Engines 4 Long-Haul'???
 
ikramerica
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Delays A380 EIS To 2013

Fri Oct 27, 2006 4:13 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 15):
I think you're right. Airlines almost never cancel Airbus or Boeing orders outright.

Exactly right. Look at UPS with the A300 -> A380. If the A330F is launched, you might see that move to that frame.

Look at AA with the 737NG. Deferred until the rumored 2012 797 EIS. Same for many other USA carriers.

AA also has deferred 777s, likely to be converted to 787s when they place their order.

CO didn't cancel their 753s, even when Boeing wanted to end production. They worked out a deal for 737NG and Boeing looking for third parties to get them more 757s on the used market.

VS isn't going to cancel outright, but considering the competition at LHR with the A380 flying on the same routes for multiple carriers, and the lack of enthusiasm from RB, I don't see the A388 flying for VS.

Who knows? Maybe they are going to wait for the 380-900?  Wink
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vv701
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Delays A380 EIS To 2013

Fri Oct 27, 2006 4:13 am

This four year - yes, four year - delay as I see it will reduce the chances of any BA 380 order.
 
slz396
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Delays A380 EIS To 2013

Fri Oct 27, 2006 4:18 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 30):
Why because I gave the plane as many letters in it's name as Airbus has given it design iterations?

Nope, because you talk about SQ being happy to order whatever crap they are offered...


Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 30):
By the way, can you answer the original question which was 'why do you think that?' rather than dodging it entirely?

Some people happen to know just a little bit more than others do and quite frankly the way you've acted here shows you can't handle more than what you now know already....
 
Pope
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Delays A380 EIS To 2013

Fri Oct 27, 2006 4:21 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 31):

'4 Engines 4 Long-Haul'???

Perhaps they've realized that:

2 engines is the path 2 profitability
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RichardPrice
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Delays A380 EIS To 2013

Fri Oct 27, 2006 4:22 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 35):

Perhaps they've realized that:

2 engines is the path 2 profitability

Yeah, because the A340 is absolutely killing VS.
 
hb88
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Delays A380 EIS To 2013

Fri Oct 27, 2006 4:32 am

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 24):
Expect SQ to firm up their MoU for 9 additional A380s signed at Farnborough in the coming weeks, with pretty early delivery slots....



Quoting Slz396 (Reply 34):
Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 30):
By the way, can you answer the original question which was 'why do you think that?' rather than dodging it entirely?

Some people happen to know just a little bit more than others do and quite frankly the way you've acted here shows you can't handle more than what you now know already....

Oh come on. No need to be impolite. There are enough asshats on a.net and Osiris does have a point about the 350 designation. FWIW, I've heard an SQ rumour along similar lines from a few sources. I won't believe it until I see it in print however.

But, to be honest I wouldn't be surprised if SQ were planning their business moving forward - even around the delays in the 380. This is particularly so as the aircraft is performing very well in flight test, is meeting performance specs and the first long flight pax reports were excellent. If it weren't for the industrialisation cockups...
 
9252fly
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Delays A380 EIS To 2013

Fri Oct 27, 2006 4:33 am

This is certainly interesting news. Is there a possibility that VS might give their firm order(not sure how many units)to SQ in exchange for their options/LOI,thereby freeing VS to use their down-payment to switch to another model at a later date?
 
RAPCON
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Delays A380 EIS To 2013

Fri Oct 27, 2006 4:34 am

Quoting Pope (Reply 35):
Perhaps they've realized that:

2 engines is the path 2 profitability



Quoting Pope (Reply 35):
Yeah, because the A340 is absolutely killing VS.

2 Engines for Economic Survival!

We'll see VS livery on the 350 before we'll see it on the 380 (IMHO VS will ultimately cancel that order).
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zvezda
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Delays A380 EIS To 2013

Fri Oct 27, 2006 4:36 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 31):
'4 Engines 4 Long-Haul'???

Ten years ago, one could make a reasonable case in favor of 4 engines for long-haul. That is no longer the case.
 
PolymerPlane
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Delays A380 EIS To 2013

Fri Oct 27, 2006 4:40 am

Quoting Avianca707359B (Reply 13):
Since Virgin is 49% owned by Singapore Air, could they have been "encouraged" to step to the back of the line to make room for SQ? Just a thought....



Quoting Thebry (Reply 20):
I agree entirely. It makes sense that VS was "encouraged" to relinquish their slots for SQ. The Singapore Airlines brand has a larger stake in the A380 -- they were, after all, supposed to be "first to fly". They'll want a lot of these birds at airports in their livery as soon as they can get them. It'll be interesting to see how this unfolds once deliveries commence.

I thought SQ will receive most of the early productions. I don't think SQ needs VS to open slot for them

Cheers,
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sk736
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Delays A380 EIS To 2013

Fri Oct 27, 2006 4:48 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 8):
Sounds like VS will be buying some Boeings soon,

In your dreams maybe.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 8):
Deferring these jets this long only confirms to me that they don't want/need them at all.

Nonsense - if they didn't want or need them they would cancel the order not defer it. And let's face it, with the current problems facing the A380 it's highly likely that VS would have been able to cancel if it had wanted to.
 
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N328KF
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Delays A380 EIS To 2013

Fri Oct 27, 2006 4:53 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 15):
I think you're right. Airlines almost never cancel Airbus or Boeing orders outright.



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 32):
Exactly right. Look at UPS with the A300 -> A380. If the A330F is launched, you might see that move to that frame.


It'll be interesting how Airbus fills the Toulouse Goose order gap between the end of the current orders and 2013. As it stands, they need around 50-100 orders to do that, right?
Sometimes this works out for the better. Recall that AF had huge 747-400 deposits with BCA; They had deferred the orders for years. They used the deposits towards their first 777-300ERs (among other reasons) because the deposits were about to expire. Of course, they liked the airframe anyhow, and wound up ordering more.

[Edited 2006-10-26 22:02:14]
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
redflyer
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Delays A380 EIS To 2013

Fri Oct 27, 2006 5:52 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 1):
6-7 years from now. That's a long time.

If you think about it, they ordered the plane back in 2001. That makes it 12 - 13 years from when the order was originally placed. Now THAT is a long time.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 8):
Deferring these jets this long only confirms to me that they don't want/need them at all.

  

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 16):
Aren't they still contractually obligated to take delivery, no matter what, by 2013?

Every contract has a termination clause in it. It all depends on what the contingencies are.

Quoting SK736 (Reply 42):
Nonsense - if they didn't want or need them they would cancel the order not defer it. And let's face it, with the current problems facing the A380 it's highly likely that VS would have been able to cancel if it had wanted to.

Let's face it, with the current problems facing the A380, it's highly likely that VS was going to cancel it. However, Airbus can least afford to have a premier customer cancel at this juncture and with all the bad press swirling around. I have no doubt (just speculation, of course) that Airbus simply got them to agree publicly to push the delivery back 7 years. The result is that the order is, for all intents and purposes, cancelled, but Airbus doesn't get the bad publicity right now when they can least afford it.

[Edited 2006-10-26 22:56:26]
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ikramerica
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Delays A380 EIS To 2013

Fri Oct 27, 2006 5:58 am

Quoting SK736 (Reply 42):
In your dreams maybe.

Quote 1/2 of a statement, lose credibility.

If you didn't notice, there was a comma there...

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 8):
Sounds like VS will be buying some Boeings soon, or these might get converted to 350X-10 at a later date.

Seems like a reasonable, balanced statement to me.

So yes, it is my "dream" that VS buy the 350X-10 or something from Boeing.

What else are they going to buy?  Wink
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
zvezda
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Delays A380 EIS To 2013

Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:08 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 45):
So yes, it is my "dream" that VS buy the 350X-10 or something from Boeing.

VS will almost certainly buy something else from Airbus (probably A350s) to cover this. I don't see Boeing taking this.
 
co7772wuh
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Delays A380 EIS To 2013

Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:17 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 46):
VS will almost certainly buy something else from Airbus (probably A350s) to cover this. I don't see Boeing taking this.

If that's the case , then the airlines are certainly standing behind Airbus .
 
jacobin777
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Delays A380 EIS To 2013

Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:21 am

Quoting Co7772wuh (Reply 47):
If that's the case , then the airlines are certainly standing behind Airbus .

Not necessarily.....VS has put down money with Airbus (just like BA, AF, and PR have done with Boeing), money which would be lost if they don't agree to something else...
"Up the Irons!"
 
baw716
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Delays A380 EIS To 2013

Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:32 am

We can spin this any number of different ways, but Branson is a smart guy. VS has problems with the A346s. This is pretty well known. The A380 delivery schedule is, well, an open question. I believe it's a good call.

Waiting to see what happens with the A380 is a smart play. Even if Airbus gets everything back on track, there will be things that occur once delivery has taken place (as with every airplane), so given all the aforementioned considerations, AND if Branson gets favorable lease rates on the existing Boeings he has (which is also fairly likely), making this decision actually helps everybody....VS, Airbus and the carriers who really need the airplane as soon as they can get it...SQ is the carrier I'm thinking of in particular.

Time will tell if he made the right call.

baw716
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co7772wuh
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Delays A380 EIS To 2013

Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:37 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 48):
Not necessarily.....VS has put down money with Airbus (just like BA, AF, and PR have done with Boeing), money which would be lost if they don't agree to something else...

Airbus have not met there end of the bargain by NOT delivering the A380 in time . VS has airbus bent over a barrel , no ? Under these circumstances , isn't it legal for VS to take their money back and tell Airbus to go fly a kite ?
 
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N328KF
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Delays A380 EIS To 2013

Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:39 am

Quoting Co7772wuh (Reply 50):
Airbus have not met there end of the bargain by NOT delivering the A380 in time . VS has airbus bent over a barrel , no ? Under these circumstances , isn't it legal for VS to take their money back and tell Airbus to go fly a kite ?

Rumor says (and that's all it is at this point -- a rumor, absent publication of the contracts) that the A380 contracts say that the no-cost cancellation clause is triggered after a two-year delay.

Now, if that's true, then right now we're looking at just barely under two years of delay. You can't count VS' first deferral, as that was voluntary.

[Edited 2006-10-26 23:41:53]
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt

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