PanAm747
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Logic Of CO And DL In Same Alliance?

Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:29 am

There have been a couple of threads recently discussing situation of DL and CO being in the same alliance. Both airlines seem to be competing rather strenuously for NYC passengers, DL at JFK, and CO at EWR.

While advantagous to the NYC-Europe flyer (SO many choices!!), what is the logic of their continued "relationship"?

It would seem to me that airlines in an alliance should have "complimentary" route structures instead of "competing" route structures. NW is a good fit with either of them - very little overlap, and strong to places where the other might not be. But DL and CO seem to be more like Jan and Marcia Brady - related, living under the same roof (NYC), but bickering constantly.

If CO and DL find it to their mutual benefit to continue, so be it. I am not going to tell them they need to divorce. But I find the union unusual. Any insights?
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BDL2DCA
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RE: Logic Of CO And DL In Same Alliance?

Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:58 am

I believe the shotgun wedding of DL, CO and NW into Skyteam came as a result of the AF-KL merger. CO and NW had a partnership going back several years with reciprocal frequent flyer miles, lounge access, and ownership sharing. NW also had the transatlantic union with KL.

Meanwhile, AF and DL were very tightly integrated for codesharing and revenue sharing across the atlantic.

When AF and KL got together, it forced their North American partners to also play nice together. You will notice that CO tends to go it alone as much as possible, whereas DL and NW do more codesharing with Skyteam partners.
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DAL767400ER
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RE: Logic Of CO And DL In Same Alliance?

Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:22 am

Overlap is mostly limited do the NYC area. Both carriers offer each other options the other doesn't have.
What DL offers CO: Western US hub, ATL-Uberhub extensive Caribbean network, and a plethora of transatlantic routes that CO does not (yet) serve, especially in Eastern Europe, where CO simply is not present.
What CO offers DL: Midwestern/Texas hub, Continental Micronesia, some European markets that DL doesn't serve, extensive intra-Florida network on its partners.
Complimentary: Mexico/Lat Am Network

Quoting PanAm747 (Thread starter):
But DL and CO seem to be more like Jan and Marcia Brady - related, living under the same roof (NYC), but bickering constantly.

Consider it this way: They only ever b!tch about another, they hardly ever b!tch about others. In a way, b!tching about another is also giving another free advertising  Wink .
 
masseybrown
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RE: Logic Of CO And DL In Same Alliance?

Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:43 am

Quoting BDL2DCA (Reply 1):
You will notice that CO tends to go it alone as much as possible,

I wouldn't say CO is uncooperative, exactly; but, if you notice, in competitive markets, the long leg of the trip is almost always on CO metal.  Wink They do cooperate when they must, however, for example to parts of Asia, Africa, and the Middle East.
 
PanAm747
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RE: Logic Of CO And DL In Same Alliance?

Fri Oct 27, 2006 4:33 am

Let me ask this then: Forgetting about the SkyTeam members who will go into hysterics at the mere thought, but would it make more sense if CO were to bail and join another alliance?

My personal thought is that Star Alliance would be a better fit - overlapping routes would not be a problem with United or Lufthansa.

No, I am NOT suggesting a UA/CO merger!!  flamed   duck 
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BDL2DCA
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RE: Logic Of CO And DL In Same Alliance?

Fri Oct 27, 2006 5:39 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 4):
Forgetting about the SkyTeam members who will go into hysterics at the mere thought, but would it make more sense if CO were to bail and join another alliance?

No.

That would put three airlines in Star, and PHL and IAD overlap with EWR, ORD and PIT overlap with CLE, and to some extent DEN and CLT serve the same markets as IAH (except for intraTexas flights).

OneWorld wouldn't work either.
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goldorak
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RE: Logic Of CO And DL In Same Alliance?

Fri Oct 27, 2006 6:33 am

Quoting BDL2DCA (Reply 1):
You will notice that CO tends to go it alone as much as possible, whereas DL and NW do more codesharing with Skyteam partners

I agree. CO is playing a "strange lonely game" in Skyteam. A good example of how bad CO is integrated in Skyteam is that at the beginning of 2006, to celebrate its anniversary, skyteam offered 2000 bonus miles for each transcontinental flight done between february and april on any skyteam airlines...guess what...except CO. CO was not participating. Very strange to me.
 
centrair
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RE: Logic Of CO And DL In Same Alliance?

Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:21 am

I think BDL2DCA said it best. NW holds a golden stake in CO and has been in a special relationship with KLM for a long time. AF and DL have been in a special codeshare for a long time as well. So when AF and KL merged, NW and CO went to Skyteam.

CO is a very independent operation and likes to go their own way. It doesn't seem like a true member of Skyteam at all. DL has their tight relationship with AF, KE and CZ (soon to be a member) NW has their relationship with KL. Before joining Skyteam, did CO really have any tight relationships with other foreign carriers? It seems they just figured they would do it themselves and not have to split the profits.

I feel that CO would be better in star. They compliment UA's routes which would be a nice benefit to the alliance. IMO CO does give some benefits to Skyteam but in Star their role would just be better defined.
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worldtraveler
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RE: Logic Of CO And DL In Same Alliance?

Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:26 am

I don't believe DL or CO codeshare on any of each other's longhaul flights (someone advise if I'm wrong) so the differences in each other''s network outside of North America is immaterial.

With 3 major global alliances and 6 US network carriers, there should be 2 US network carriers per alliance but as mentioned CO and DL got dragged together via AF-KL.

I don't think you'll see AA and CO bunking together which would be the only option that could spread out the US network carriers among the alliances.
 
panamair
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RE: Logic Of CO And DL In Same Alliance?

Fri Oct 27, 2006 4:33 pm

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 8):
I don't believe DL or CO codeshare on any of each other's longhaul flights (someone advise if I'm wrong) so the differences in each other''s network outside of North America is immaterial.

I believe CO codeshares on DL's ATL-SCL flights:

CO 4372 ATL 10:05pm SCL 9:30am+
CO 4242 SCL 10:40pm ATL 6:15am+
 
BDL2DCA
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RE: Logic Of CO And DL In Same Alliance?

Fri Oct 27, 2006 10:19 pm

Quoting Centrair (Reply 7):
Before joining Skyteam, did CO really have any tight relationships with other foreign carriers?

I think CO has relationships with foreign carriers when it benefits them.

Prior to Skyteam, I know they had some arrangements with KL for beyond-AMS flights, VS for flights to LHR, and EK for flights from LGW to DXB and beyond.
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baw716
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RE: Logic Of CO And DL In Same Alliance?

Sat Oct 28, 2006 1:11 am

The CO/DL presence in SkyTeam actually makes the alliance stronger, even though they do compete with each other in the New York area. As previously mentioned, this is really the only market in which they are head to head and it is principally to Europe where this competition exists.

It's important to look at this from the "big picture" perspective. If I am not mistaken, the combination of CO/DL at New York gives SkyTeam a decided seat share advantage over other alliances, since each carrier serves different airports and their route nets feed from different parts of the US, I don't think that there is such a CO vs. DL mentality in the New York market (I'm not saying it doesn't exist...I just don't think its a dominent factor). I would imagine that it is a "SkyTeam vs. Star Alliance and One World (with BA/AA) the principal competitor that makes the New York market so competitive.

Just a different perspective...that's all.

baw716
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lincoln
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RE: Logic Of CO And DL In Same Alliance?

Sat Oct 28, 2006 6:52 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 8):
I don't believe DL or CO codeshare on any of each other's longhaul flights (someone advise if I'm wrong) so the differences in each other''s network outside of North America is immaterial.

I guess it depends on the definition of "long haul" but more than once when shopping CLE-LAX/ONT/SNA/SAN flights I've come up with a an ATL connection and although the CLE-ATL segment is a CO flight on CO metal, the ATL-So Cal segment is a CO flight number on DL metal.

Not that it means anything in terms of alliances, but DL also does the ground support (aircraft handling, CSR staffing, etc) for CO at several stations (including, at least, ONT)

Lincoln
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worldtraveler
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RE: Logic Of CO And DL In Same Alliance?

Sat Oct 28, 2006 9:00 am

I was actually referring to int'l as noted by the reference to them not codesharing outside of North America.

SCL doesn't surprise me since CO doesn't serve it.

CO and DL don't codeshare on other points to Europe or S. America because they both serve many of the same points - and they both are trying to grow their systems. It is not just a gateway comparison. CO is not interested in codesharing on a DL flight even from ATL to Europe because the flow competes with something CO either offers now or potentially could offer in the future. The same applies to DL. They simply have no interest in helping support each other in region they both serve - unless to a city like SCL which CO has served before and decided they will not serve.

NW does codeshare on many of DL and CO's flights to Latin America.
 
masseybrown
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RE: Logic Of CO And DL In Same Alliance?

Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:18 pm

While FlyBE isn't a Skyteam member, CO just informed the DOT that they are ending all codeshares with FlyBE as of today.

Hmmm... I wonder what is behind that.
 
Humberside
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RE: Logic Of CO And DL In Same Alliance?

Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:18 am

Probably as Flybe is now a LoCo - when that deal started they were a full service airline with a large range of interline agreements and even a franchise agreement with Air France.

I also found that deal interesting because as CO added new UK destinations, the codeshare deal wasn't expanded to cover them. For example BE sold GLA-EWR but not EDI-EWR

[Edited 2006-10-28 17:28:03]
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