28L28L
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Why No WN At LGB?

Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:02 am

Anyone know why Southwest never began service to LGB? Their expansion into California cities currently served was completed by 1994, well before B6 began operations. Just curious if anyone has any theories? Sorry if it has already been discussed.
 
boeingfever777
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RE: Why No WN At LGB?

Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:18 am

Possible to close to LAX and SNA which they both served by 1994.
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FATFlyer
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RE: Why No WN At LGB?

Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:20 am

I can only speculate, maybe someone knows for sure.

LGB was sued by several airlines in 1983 when it attempted to limit airport noise. The lawsuit was not settled until 1995 when the current slots were agreed to.

So WN may not have wanted to deal with the legal situation. The 12 years may have meant that LGB missed its opening.
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steeler83
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RE: Why No WN At LGB?

Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:30 am

Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 2):
LGB was sued by several airlines in 1983 when it attempted to limit airport noise. The lawsuit was not settled until 1995 when the current slots were agreed to.

Interesting... So the people with their expensive houses did not want to hear planes flying low overhead as they came into LGB or take off from there. Did WN still have 732s at the time? When did they get rid of their 732 aircraft?
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LAXintl
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RE: Why No WN At LGB?

Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:32 am

There simply is no growth options for LGB. Even if SWA would have beaten Jetblue and acquired all the vacant slots available it would merely be able to mount 25 or so daily flights. This compares to about 110 up the road at LAX.
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steeler83
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RE: Why No WN At LGB?

Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:36 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 4):
Even if SWA would have beaten Jetblue and acquired all the vacant slots available it would merely be able to mount 25 or so daily flights. This compares to about 110 up the road at LAX.

This would basically be a split then of one of WN's larger stations... Yeah, that seems logical...
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ikramerica
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RE: Why No WN At LGB?

Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:42 am

Quoting 28L28L (Thread starter):
Anyone know why Southwest never began service to LGB?

Because LGB is a dumb airport to serve if you serve LAX and SNA (and not a great move if you don't serve them). AA, DL, others have discovered this.

LGB only makes sense for people who live within a 10 mile radius of LGB, and even then, LAX or SNA are not that much further. And LGB makes no sense for people who live North of LAX.

WN seems to be doing pretty well with BUR, ONT, LAX and SNA. LGB offers them nothing.

People talk about how B6 beat AA out of LGB, etc. Again, LGB really makes no sense for AA who serves the same airports as WN.
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srbmod
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RE: Why No WN At LGB?

Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:44 am

Because LGB is a capacity controlled airport and under an agreement with local residents, there is a cap on the number of daily commercial & cargo flights out of the airport. So airlines get slots to operate out of airport (which are allocated by the airport authority), and WN tends to avoid these types of airport mainly for scheduling reasons. Some airports have strict slot controls where if the flight is late arriving or departing and is past the time period of their slot, the flight may not be allowed to operate or land and that can affect flights elsewhere in an airline's system. Plus slot controlled airports limit the amount of growth an airline can do there as well, and for WN having the ability to expand out of a city is important, which is part of the reason why LGB has been bypassed as an L.A.-area airport by WN.
 
FATFlyer
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RE: Why No WN At LGB?

Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:49 am

Although AS seems to make them all work.  Wink
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FATFlyer
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RE: Why No WN At LGB?

Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:54 am

Don't forget that SNA did not start until 1994. LAX started in 1982. There were a lot of years that LGB could have been added.
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Why No WN At LGB?

Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:58 am

I'd agree with Ikramerica that for carriers that serve other nearby airports such as LAX and SNA, serving LGB is somewhat a needless duplication that focus on serving more the local community.

However LGB on its own, does pull people in far and wide across the LA metro area. A couple years back I saw a study which sampled boardings of passengers at LGB.

Basically the airport regularly pulled as far North as the Westside, the entire South Bay, South towards Northern OC cities such as Seal and Huntington Beach, then inland up thru Fullerton, Norwalk, Downey, Whittier, El Monte, Alhambra, and Central Los Angeles. Certainly an area that compromises several million people.
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N1120A
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RE: Why No WN At LGB?

Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:15 am

Quoting Boeingfever777 (Reply 1):
Possible to close to LAX and SNA which they both served by 1994.

It isn't that so much as it is the growth opportunities

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 3):
So the people with their expensive houses did not want to hear planes flying low overhead as they came into LGB or take off from there.

The houses around there were not particularly expensive in those days.

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 3):
When did they get rid of their 732 aircraft?

Last year

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 4):
This compares to about 110 up the road at LAX.

Not to mention 27 flights at SNA, about twice that at BUR and ONT.

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 5):
This would basically be a split then of one of WN's larger stations...

Not really. WN already flies to 4 of the 5 Basin airports and could pretty easily draw at LGB

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 6):
LGB only makes sense for people who live within a 10 mile radius of LGB, and even then, LAX or SNA are not that much further

I disagree. The sheer convinience of LGB draws rather heavily from places within more of a 30 mile radius, which is quite a large number as Laxintl says.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 6):
People talk about how B6 beat AA out of LGB, etc. Again, LGB really makes no sense for AA who serves the same airports as WN.

LGB made sense for AA for years and years, they just tried to get greedy with it.

Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 9):
Don't forget that SNA did not start until 1994. LAX started in 1982. There were a lot of years that LGB could have been added.


BUR and ONT were added between the two.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 10):
Basically the airport regularly pulled as far North as the Westside, the entire South Bay, South towards Northern OC cities such as Seal and Huntington Beach, then inland up thru Fullerton, Norwalk, Downey, Whittier, El Monte, Alhambra, and Central Los Angeles. Certainly an area that compromises several million people.

Complete agreement. Many on the Westside like LGB because you are generally going to drive against traffic flows (unless catching a red eye) and the parking is easier and cheaper than at LAX. I know countless people from all over Orange County, including the places you mentioned, along with Garden Grove and even Irvine (which is really where SNA is) who will pick LGB in part because the fares at SNA are never subsidized by cargo (ever wonder why WN never includes SNA in major fare sales?).
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steeler83
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RE: Why No WN At LGB?

Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:29 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 11):
Not really. WN already flies to 4 of the 5 Basin airports and could pretty easily draw at LGB

Oh yeah that is true. They fly to ONT, BUR, and Orange County

Quoting N1120A (Reply 11):
The houses around there were not particularly expensive in those days.

Oh, I thought they were. Then again, that was what, 20 years ago? Yeah, I should know better...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
dolphinflyer
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RE: Why No WN At LGB?

Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:31 am

No slots available...
 
N1120A
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RE: Why No WN At LGB?

Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:40 am

Quoting Dolphinflyer (Reply 13):
No slots available...

There were plenty when WN could have started service.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
JFK998
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RE: Why No WN At LGB?

Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:51 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 6):
Because LGB is a dumb airport to serve if you serve LAX and SNA (and not a great move if you don't serve them). AA, DL, others have discovered this.

LGB only makes sense for people who live within a 10 mile radius of LGB, and even then, LAX or SNA are not that much further. And LGB makes no sense for people who live North of LAX.

I agree to some degree that it would make no sense to fly to LGB if you fly to LAX and SNA becuase those are 2 major airports and LGB is small compared to them.

I disagree that it only makes sense for people who only live in a 10 mile radius. A lot of people prefer LGB to LAX as LAX is much more congested than LGB is. AND.. not me personally but there are a lot of people who would come from areas north of LAX to LGB just becuase of the congestion at LAX.

I have flown out of LAX many times prior to B6 starting up. I used to fly TWA JFK-LAX all the time. Only once after B6 began operations did I fly from LAX, and I showed up for my WN flight 2 1/2 hours prior to the flight only to find a mile long line out the door! Trust me, LGB isnt all that bad.

In response to the question to justify this post, WN doesnt fly to LGB simply becuase they already have a strong presence in the So-Cal market already.
 
N1120A
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RE: Why No WN At LGB?

Sun Oct 29, 2006 3:14 am

Quoting JFK998 (Reply 15):
LAX and SNA becuase those are 2 major airports and LGB is small compared to them.

SNA isn't a particularly major airport, it is just a good reliever. LGB is actually a significantly larger airport than SNA from an airfield prospective and would be a much better place to fly from from an operations prospective (5 runways, one over 10,000 feet).
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halls120
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RE: Why No WN At LGB?

Sun Oct 29, 2006 3:36 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 11):
Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 3):So the people with their expensive houses did not want to hear planes flying low overhead as they came into LGB or take off from there.
The houses around there were not particularly expensive in those days.

wrong. The Los Altos neighborhood, zip code 90815, is - and was in the mid 90's - the third most affluent area of Long Beach by home value ranking, and is directly under the flight path of aircraft using 12/30, the primary runway used by airlines at Long Beach. Residents of that neighborhood, and the Belmont Shore/Naples neighborhood (current average home value 1 million plus, to the SE of Los Altos) have always fought hard against expansion of LGB.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 16):
LGB is actually a significantly larger airport than SNA from an airfield prospective and would be a much better place to fly from from an operations prospective (5 runways, one over 10,000 feet).

With the slot restrictions in place, so what?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
greg3322
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RE: Why No WN At LGB?

Sun Oct 29, 2006 4:09 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 6):
LGB only makes sense for people who live within a 10 mile radius of LGB, and even then, LAX or SNA are not that much further. And LGB makes no sense for people who live North of LAX.

I couldn't disagree more. Flying out of LGB is a very different experience than SNA and especially LAX. Parking is fairly inexpensive and walking distance to the terminal. The terminal is small, but it works. The longest I have ever waited for security is about 2 minutes - and that was at peak time. I think of it as a "no frills" airport. No Chilli's or Mc Donalds, no large gift shops, no jetways, but a pleasant, simple airport.

Many people have found LGB to a great airport alternative and will drive to it. The limited flights is the biggest problem. If the slots were opened up, the airport growth would be increadble.

Greg
 
N1120A
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RE: Why No WN At LGB?

Sun Oct 29, 2006 4:10 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 17):
With the slot restrictions in place, so what?

The point was that the poster called SNA a "large" airport, which it isn't. Not by PAX numbers and certainly not by airfield size.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 17):
The Los Altos neighborhood, zip code 90815, is - and was in the mid 90's

Was it in the mid-1980s when the fight started? LGB itself is almost in Lakewood, which isn't a particularly expensive area.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
halls120
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RE: Why No WN At LGB?

Sun Oct 29, 2006 4:45 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 19):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 17):The Los Altos neighborhood, zip code 90815, is - and was in the mid 90's
Was it in the mid-1980s when the fight started? LGB itself is almost in Lakewood, which isn't a particularly expensive area.

 sigh  I was born in Long Beach, and raised there and in Los Alamitos. Where my back yard was the then Naval Air Station. I spent most of my summers hanging around LGB. So I know where the fu*k LGB is, and apparently unlike you, I know that scheduled airlines DON'T fly over Lakewood on final approach. The people that have consistently objected to the increase of schedule airline service at LGB primarily live in Los Altos, Naples, and Belmont Shore - under the approach to 30. And those neighborhoods are fairly well off.

Understand now?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
N1120A
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RE: Why No WN At LGB?

Sun Oct 29, 2006 4:52 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 20):
So I know where the fu*k LGB is, and apparently unlike you

I definately know where the fu*k LGB is, given that I have been there plenty of times and was born 17 miles away.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
halls120
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RE: Why No WN At LGB?

Sun Oct 29, 2006 4:55 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 21):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 20):So I know where the fu*k LGB is, and apparently unlike you
I definately know where the fu*k LGB is, given that I have been there plenty of times and was born 17 miles away.

Well then, I suggest a re-familiarization trip, because aircraft landing on runway 30 don't fly on final over Lakewood.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
gmcc
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RE: Why No WN At LGB?

Sun Oct 29, 2006 4:59 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 20):
The people that have consistently objected to the increase of schedule airline service at LGB

It actually goes as far down as Huntington Beach. I have seen people complain about Jet Blue planes making too much noise above the city. Of course this was also the city that tried to ban banner pulling aircraft because they were too noisy.
 
wilax
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RE: Why No WN At LGB?

Sun Oct 29, 2006 5:51 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 6):
LGB only makes sense for people who live within a 10 mile radius of LGB, and even then, LAX or SNA are not that much further. And LGB makes no sense for people who live North of LAX.

I beg to differ,

I live in Inglewood, about 5 miles from LAX. I fly out of LGB whenever I possibly can. You can't beat the ease of Long Beach. The lines, traffic, and parking you have to endure at LAX would drive anyone to LGB if there were a choice. Unfortunately, there are no international flights, and chances are, you will have to make an out of the way connection even to fly domestically.
 
AADC10
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RE: Why No WN At LGB?

Sun Oct 29, 2006 6:07 am

Why would WN want to fly to slot restricted LGB when they can fly to the non-restricted LAX and ONT and the only partially restricted BUR. B6 went to LGB because there was no gate space at LAX and they just planned on living with the slot restrictions.

Back when WN moved into L.A. there was space available at LAX. By the time B6 arrived, there was not enough space for even a small hub.
 
dacman
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RE: Why No WN At LGB?

Sun Oct 29, 2006 7:27 am

I grew up in and still live in Long Beach near LGB (under the approach to Rwy 30)

Though my "airport haters" neighbors here in Los Altos are a vocal bunch, the folks who live in North Long Beach are a much more militant group as this is were the majority of the "LGBHUSH2" crowd live.

This group would like northing more than to see the airport completely closed. The "airport haters" in Long Beach don't tell the truth or should I say the whole truth when ranting about LGB.

What the "airport haters" don't want you to know is that more flights over and above the current 41 could be added at anytime as long the total amount of noise generated stayed within the established noise bucket as it is called. In other words if the noise generated by 70 flights were to remain inside the federally mandated noise bucket (generated by 41 flights) then those flights could be added without violating the mandate.

We have a great airport and I hope that one day Southwest will fly here, It would be great for me as I could ride my bike to work, cause you see I am a Southwest employee working at SNA.

I do know for a fact that WN was seriously looking at LGB a few years ago, but jetBlue snuck and grabed the open slots. There are 41 slots for large aircraft and 25 for regional aircraft.

I could go on but I will end here as I feel my blood pressure rising.

Michael
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hawaiian717
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RE: Why No WN At LGB?

Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:18 am

I grew up on Naples and the Peninsula, and I think its a bit of a stretch to say that Naples/Belmont Shore is seriously affected by the airport. Every now and then I'd see an aircraft taking an unusual approach and come over our house, but that was pretty rare. Los Altos and the area around Leisure World in Seal Beach, yeah I can see them complaining.

Don't forget, the airport was there first, and wasn't a lot of that housing especially on the east side of the airport built because of growth demand at Douglas?
 
lincoln
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RE: Why No WN At LGB?

Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:24 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 3):
Did WN still have 732s at the time? When did they get rid of their 732 aircraft?

I'm pretty sure WN was flying 732s up until relatively recently -- certainly during the time in question....Googles...January 2005 is the date I come up with for the last 737-200 flight.

Quoting Dacman (Reply 26):
What the "airport haters" don't want you to know is that more flights over and above the current 41 could be added at anytime as long the total amount of noise generated stayed within the established noise bucket as it is called. In other words if the noise generated by 70 flights were to remain inside the federally mandated noise bucket (generated by 41 flights) then those flights could be added without violating the mandate.

It's actually the noise budgets -- there are several depending on category of aircraft. The airport's website has a list of Frequently Asked Questions that explain this in greater detail: http://www.longbeach.gov/airport/noise_abatement/faqs.asp

41 flights is the minimum, and more flights will be added only if the City detemines that the additional flights will not exceed the airline's portion of the CNEL based on the 1989-90 baseline year. So even if the airlines operate the 41 flights within the noise noise budget, this does not automatically mean that additional flights could be added -- the city would first have to make a determination (which there doesn't seem to be any legal obligation for them to do, and in the face of vocal opposition from the people who elected them, it seems unlikely).

Lincoln
(My Dad lives under the departure path of LGB -- off of Carson between Cherry and Orange. Those aren't particularly expensive homes, either. It's really cool when I'm visiting him and they're doing reversed ops, because you can wave to the pax on the incoming flights  Smile )
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FATFlyer
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RE: Why No WN At LGB?

Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:39 am

Here are the photo maps that JetBlue prepared to show the noise contours when they were planning the LGB start. It shows only the info for takeoffs but should give an idea of neighborhoods overflown.
http://www.lbreport.com/reference/jbslides.htm
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
 
halls120
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RE: Why No WN At LGB?

Sun Oct 29, 2006 11:55 am

Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 29):
Here are the photo maps that JetBlue prepared to show the noise contours when they were planning the LGB start. It shows only the info for takeoffs but should give an idea of neighborhoods overflown.

Wow. I don't see Lakewood anywhere near the noise contours. How can that be?  Wink
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
SJCRRPAX
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RE: Why No WN At LGB?

Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:30 pm

As an outsider that flys to all of these airports on occasions, I think four of those southland airports are under utilized.

LGB - 3 million pax /year

BUR - .5 million pax / year

SNA - 10 million pax /year

ONT - 7 million pax / year

Seriously, when I go to these airports, you normally see general aviation flights, and the run way empty for long stretches of time. I can see why LAX will limit their size to 75 Million PAX, maybe they think these other airports should pick up the slack.
 
akjetBlue
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RE: Why No WN At LGB?

Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:33 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 6):
Because LGB is a dumb airport to serve if you serve LAX and SNA (and not a great move if you don't serve them). AA, DL, others have discovered this.

Really? Thats kinda funny cuz... um, well Delta serves LGB - or rather Delta Conx - I remembered there was an announcement sometime back of service I think to SLC. So did my homework and found this on the LGB airport site:

http://www.longbeach.gov/airport/default.asp

Known as the Region's "Easy In, Easy Out" Airport, Long Beach Airport hosts Alaska Airlines, US Airways / America West Airlines, Delta Airlines, and JetBlue Airways, offering direct flights throughout the United States with easy Domestic and International connections, and the lowest-cost parking in the region.

So maybe it's just smart old'e AA that has figured that one out.

Just my .02 to stir the pot.
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hawaiian717
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RE: Why No WN At LGB?

Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:57 pm

Quoting SJCRRPAX (Reply 31):
Seriously, when I go to these airports, you normally see general aviation flights, and the run way empty for long stretches of time. I can see why LAX will limit their size to 75 Million PAX, maybe they think these other airports should pick up the slack.

That is, no doubt, the feeling among those who live near LAX. However, with the slot limitations at LGB and SNA, and the limited terminal capacity at BUR, LGB, and SNA, its rather difficult for the other airports to pick up the slack. ONT is what everyone sees as the future growth airport, but its distance from downtown LA makes it less attractive.
 
FlyUSCG
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RE: Why No WN At LGB?

Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:35 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 6):
Because LGB is a dumb airport to serve if you serve LAX and SNA (and not a great move if you don't serve them). AA, DL, others have discovered this.

Well Delta, Alaska, and America West would disagree with you on that one.
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steeler83
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RE: Why No WN At LGB?

Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:48 am

Quoting Lincoln (Reply 28):
I'm pretty sure WN was flying 732s up until relatively recently -- certainly during the time in question....Googles...January 2005 is the date I come up with for the last 737-200 flight.

Yeah, N1120A already informed me of when the last flight was for the WN 732. Thanks anyway though  Smile
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