soundtrack
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Prototype Concorde's At Museums In 70s? True

Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:19 am

I have run into a few photos of I'm guessing prototype Concorde at a British/UK museum in the mid 1970s.

1. Does anyone know if they are still there - or was this a momentary exhibit?
2. Since I have your attention - did Concorde do many UK shows in the 70s?

Help appreciated - THANKS in advance.
 
philb
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RE: Prototype Concorde's At Museums In 70s? True

Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:38 am

The two British prototypes were at Duxford and Yeovilton by summer 1976 where they remain on display
 
FlySSC
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RE: Prototype Concorde's At Museums In 70s? True

Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:41 am

The British prototype of Concorde is G-BSST 001.
Roll out : Sept.19 1968
First flight : April 9th 1969
Last Flight : March 4th 1976.
836 hours of flight
438 Landings.
Preserved at Yeovilton.

Then there is 1 pre-serie aircraft : G-AXDN 01
Roll out : Sept 20th 1971
First flight : Dec.17th 1971
Last flight : Aug.20th 1977
632 hours of flight
273 Landings.
Preserved at Duxford

A third aircraft was used for test flight. The first Serie aircraft : G-BBDG 202
Roll out : Sept 1st 1973
First Flight : Feb 13th 1974
Last Flight : Dec.24th 1981
1282 hours of flight
633 landings.


The aircraft was used for spares by BA.
It has now been restored and is displayed at the Brooklands Museum.
 
soundtrack
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RE: Prototype Concorde's At Museums In 70s? True

Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:42 am

Thanks Phil.

So they have been on display for 30 yrs...

Do they remain in original colors (test, BAC, or BA)?
 
soundtrack
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RE: Prototype Concorde's At Museums In 70s? True

Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:44 am

I have some footage where someone told me the Concorde in that shot is at the FLEET AIR MUSEUM.

Is this true?

Thanks!
 
soundtrack
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RE: Prototype Concorde's At Museums In 70s? True

Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:52 am

Thanks also SSC...


Anyone know how OFTEN the Concorde flew in Air Shows in the 70s?

I have not seen much written or described about this - was it common, uncommon.

Doing research project - thus the interest in this. thanks
 
philb
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RE: Prototype Concorde's At Museums In 70s? True

Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:57 am

Not seen either for many years but they are both still in the BAC/Aerospatiale schemes as far as I know - they never wore any other.

Strictly speaking, G-BSST and F-WTSS were the prototypes. G-AXDN and F-WTSA were hybrids - different visors, slightly longer but much less like the production aircraft than the following three,
F-WTSB, G-BBDG and F-WTSC (later converted to production standard for Air France).

XDN and TSA were, in effect, second stage prototypes, one for each country, each used as much in the developmental programme as prototypes and retired at about the same time as the first two, leaving the next three to complete development flying prior to service entry of the definitive model.
 
philb
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RE: Prototype Concorde's At Museums In 70s? True

Sun Oct 29, 2006 3:02 am

Yeovilton is the Fleet Air Arm Museum. I was there when G-BSST landed on a very murky day in 1976.

It is actually owned by the London Science Museum and is on permanent loan to the FAA Museum.

Air show appearances were restricted by the development programme but Farnborough and Paris appearances were de riguer.
 
soundtrack
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RE: Prototype Concorde's At Museums In 70s? True

Sun Oct 29, 2006 3:07 am

Ok thanks Phil! - you have confirmed what I was asking about.

If anyone else knows about Concorde's Air Show appearances in the 70s- kindly answer.

Did it ever show up at Air Tattoo? Other shows in UK or globally.

thanks!
 
philb
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RE: Prototype Concorde's At Museums In 70s? True

Sun Oct 29, 2006 3:16 am

This link will give you more
http://www.concordesst.com/history/70s.html
 
David L
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RE: Prototype Concorde's At Museums In 70s? True

Sun Oct 29, 2006 3:28 am

Quoting Philb (Reply 7):
It is actually owned by the London Science Museum and is on permanent loan to the FAA Museum.

Ah, I've always wondered how on earth the Navy got hold of that! There's some other really good stuff there.

I don't know anything about its appearances at airshows, apart from seeing one overflying Edinburgh in formation with the Red Arrows at the opening of the Scottish Parliament, but this is an excellent place to start:

Quoting Philb (Reply 9):
This link will give you more
http://www.concordesst.com/history/70s.html
 
vc10
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RE: Prototype Concorde's At Museums In 70s? True

Sun Oct 29, 2006 3:38 am

When the aircraft flew to FAA Museum it was not the best of days with rain and low cloud, and the Landing was perhaps not one of Trubshaws best.

Afterwards, when asked about this, he said that the cloud base was low and the runway somewhat short, but what really put him of was that as they broke cloud and neared touchdown, there was some nice fellow [not his exact words] waving some bats at him, It was pointed out this was a naval base and that is how they did it on carriers, but his looks expressed exactly what he thought of that point of view

littlevc10
 
FlySSC
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RE: Prototype Concorde's At Museums In 70s? True

Sun Oct 29, 2006 4:14 am

Quoting Philb (Reply 6):
Strictly speaking, G-BSST and F-WTSS were the prototypes. G-AXDN and F-WTSA were hybrids - different visors, slightly longer but much less like the production aircraft than the following three,
F-WTSB, G-BBDG and F-WTSC (later converted to production standard for Air France).

Not exactely.

Prototypes : F-WTSS / msn001 & G-BSST / msn002
Pre-Serie : F-WTSA / msn02 & G-AXDN / msn01

Serie : F-WTSB / msn201 & G-BBDG / msn202 both used for test flights, never for commercial services.


F-WTSC/F-BTSC was one of the oldest Concorde built and had a funny history.

She was "born" in Toulouse on December 22, 1974 as "msn 203", F-WTSC.
She was the 4th Concorde built in Toulouse, the 7th of the 20 a/c (10 in France, 10 in GB, including the 2 prototypes and pre-series aircraft).

F-WTSC was 970 kg heavier than the other Concorde built later and was originally due to be delivered to Pan AM.

She took the air for the first time on January 31st 1975.
Though she was not supposed to join the AF fleet, she was one of the only 2 Concorde (along with F-WTSB) to wear the "old" Air France colors, but never operated any commericial flight for AF under that livery.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jean-François Denis




From May 28th 1975 to August 2nd 1975, she was used for an intense serie of endurance test flights and AF Crew certification :

15 return flights CDG-DKR-GIG
12 return flights CDG-LIS-CCS
4 return flights CDG-YQX
1 return flight CDG-DKR
3 "loops" CDG-North Atlantic Ocean-CDG
3 "loops" CDG-Mediterranean sea-CDG

All flights were operated with AF Cabin crew and an average number of 80 PAX (invited by AF).
Those flights were also used for training the AF F/A to the new service on board, in "real" conditions.

F-BTSC was delivered (short term lease) a first time to AF on January 5th 1976, but as she was still wearing the "old" AF colors, the official first Commercial flight AF085 CDG-DKR-GIG on january 21st 1976 was operated by F-BVFA.

On May 26th 1976, F-BTSC operated the flight AF200 CCS-CDG NONSTOP . The 7780km/4836mi were covered in 4h19, including 3h37 at a supersonic speed.
This is the record, never broken, of the longest ever nonstop Concorde flight.

After F-BVFB & FC were delivered to AF, F-BTSC was returned to the manufacturer in Toulouse on Dec.8th 1976.

On June 14th 1979, at IAD, 2 tyres of the main gear of AF's Concorde F-BVFC burst during the take off run ...
Pieces of tyres and metal debris showered under the left wing and were heavy enough to puncture it. As a result, fuel tanks suddenly burst open and fuel started to flow out. Fortunately this time, it had not ignited and the aircraft landed back safely at IAD.

http://concordesst.com/accident/pictures/wing.jpg

F-BVFC was grounded to be repaired. AF needed a replacement aircraft and on June 16th 1979 F-BTSC was leased back to Air France.
But before that date, F-BTSC was painted in a new livery and used for the movie "Airport 80 Concorde".


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Alain Iger



On July 23rd 1980, after an aborted take-off, F-BTSC skidded off the Runway at GIG. All on board are safe and the a/c was not damaged.

After the decision to stop the production of Concorde on September 21st 1979, The three unsold French aircraft F-BTSC, F-BTSD & F-BVFF will be sold for a symbolic French Franc to AF, while the 2 last British aircraft G-BOAG & G-BOAF will be "sold" to BA for a symbolic 1£.

On October 23rd 1980, F-BTSC becomes officially the property of Air France.

Concorde line CDG-IAD is closed on March 29th 1981.

After the lines to CCS and GIG are closed on April 1st 1982, F-BTSC is retired from service by AF and stored at CDG.

4 years later on April 28th 1986, F-BTSC returns to service.

She operates her first "World tour", chartered by American express Travel from Nov.22nd to Dec.9th 1988 :
CDG-DKR-GIG-IGU-SCL-LIM-ACA-HNL-PPT-NAN-GUM-CNX-BKK-MAA-SAH-LXR-CAI-CDG !!!!

On May 2nd 1989, Pope J.P.II becomes the first "supersonic" pope when he flies on board F-BTSC from RUN (Saint Denis/Réunion) to LUS (Lusaka/Zambia). A supersonic flight of 1h19mn.

From Feb 1st to Feb 18th 1994 : second "World tour" for F-BTSC :
CDG-JFK-LAS-HNL-PPT-NOU-SYD-DPS-CMB-MCT-CAI-CDG.

On July 25th 2000, F-BTSC was not supposed to fly. AF4590 was initially programmed with F-BVFC.
But On July 24th, it was decided that F-BVFC would replace F-BVFA for the regular AF002 so it would give time to repair a minor technical problem on FA.
In the morning of July 25th, the work on FA was not finished yet, so F-BVFC operated AF002 to JFK while F-BVFB was heading back to CDG as AF001.

F-BTSC was finally chosen to operate AF4590 ...


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © PASSET Laurent



[Edited 2006-10-28 21:19:13]
 
philb
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RE: Prototype Concorde's At Museums In 70s? True

Sun Oct 29, 2006 7:43 am

From where do you get the idea that 'TSC was originally for Pan Am? It was built and completed as the last development aircraft, mainly for route proving and other trials and was the same spec originally as 'BDG and 'TSB - a pre production series 100, never intended for passenger service and numerically balanced the complete airframe built in the UK for long term fatigue tests at the Royal Aircraft Establishment.

It first flew on the date you state, just under a month before the first BA aircraft (27/2/75) and 9 months before the first AF machine (27/10/75)

It was not converted to a series 101 - the AF designation - until early 1980 when AF had decided to purchase the aircraft, though they had used it many times before on lease, indeed it became their second aircraft delivered when it went to them on lease on January 6 1976, returning it to Aerospatiale on December 8 that year.

Are you seriously trying to say that an airframe designated for Pan Am was built and flew before aircraft for the manufacturing countries????

In fact Pan Am never ordered any Concordes. They OPTIONED aircraft and the options were cancelled on 31 January 1973.

Had everything gone to plan for Concorde Pan Am, having placed its first options for 6 of the aircraft on June 3 1963 - the same day BA and AF placed options for 6 each - and followed this with options for two more, would have received aircraft designated type 103 and the third production series aircraft built. It is unclear where this would have been built as the dual line production plans changed from time to time as options were taken up then cancelled.

As the cockpit instrumentation would have had to be in US units there was an original plan (around 1966) to build all aircraft for the USA at Filton - and I have that from a meeting I had with Brian Trubshaw in 1981 and from an address he gave at UMIST Manchester in the same year, but for how long this idea survived I have no knowledge.
 
GDB
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RE: Prototype Concorde's At Museums In 70s? True

Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:13 am

Philb, Pan Am had long wanted to start commercial services on the same day as AF and the then BOAC.
All this of course ended in Jan 73, when they bailed out.

However, planning up to then, in the latter stages, might well have included a lease to PA, allowing them to commence a service, as things stood then.
Planning constantly changed, were revised, but 203, F-BTSC, was parallel to 204 G-BOAC, as Concorde 202 and 201, were the first production machines-though as you state, not up to full production standard.

As it was, neither 201, 202 or 203, commenced commerical service, G-BOAA (206) operated BA's first.
But it might have been planned as such at some time.

Another way of looking at this, was the idea that Pan Am would recieve the third production Concorde, which you can call 203.
But then Pan Am also strongly wanted an APU, I've seen BAC drawings of such a tailcone installation from 1970, using either the French APU as used on RAF VC-10's, or a US unit similar to the unit on the C-5 Galaxy.
I've also seen contemporary documents on PA's desire for production aircraft 3, from 1964 and 1970.

They were dead serious and commited to Concorde until the 1971-72 period, in fact not taking up options to production, 9 months before the oil crisis, due to internal PA cash flow problems, the cost and delays of 747 introduction-and the excessive numbers ordered, as well as a general turning against SST's of the period, which must have had influence on PA, as Juan Trippe's influence waned.

Then we have the issue of what really was the first definative production Concorde, some within BA always considered 206, G-BOAA, as the first true production machine, pointing out 204 G-BOAC's differences-including some structural ones, and like 203, higher weight.
Before the events of 2000 and 2001, along with the desire to reduce charters, G-BOAC was thought possibly to be quietly retired and stored prior to the full retirement of the fleet-whenever that would be.

But then, I consider the 'Prototypes' to be 'Technology Demonstrators', what we call the pre production machines as Prototypes, 201 and 202 as pre-production.

G-BSST, at Yeovilton, is well worth visiting, I did last year, even considering the test equipment installed, it looked most unlike the production Concordes I was familiar with, beyond the external differences, but also in what systems were viewable inside.
Over 30 years, it's presence has no doubt greatly increased the earnings of the FAA museum, allowing great investment into the core subject of Naval aviation, something that Brooklands want to repeat-and that is well worth a vist too.
 
FlySSC
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RE: Prototype Concorde's At Museums In 70s? True

Sun Oct 29, 2006 6:55 pm

Quoting Philb (Reply 13):
From where do you get the idea that 'TSC was originally for Pan Am?



Quoting Philb (Reply 13):
Are you seriously trying to say that an airframe designated for Pan Am was built and flew before aircraft for the manufacturing countries????

PanAM was the very first airline to place options for 6 Concorde (3 from BAC & 3 from AS), on June 3rd 1963, well before AF ( 8 a/c on Jan.30th 1964) and BOAC (8 a/c on April 14th 1964).
If the case of AF and BOAC at those dates, it was not even "options", firmly placed, but a "declaration of intention to order the aircraft.

Note also that PanAm paced another oprtion for 2 more aircraft (1 from AS & 1 from BAC) on July 24th 1966.

The firm orders from AF & BA were placed on July 28th 1972 for 4 (AF) & 5 (BA) aircraft.

As GDB said, PanAm wanted to start its transatlantic Concorde service on the same day as AF & BOAC, that's why F-BTSC (msn 203) was planned to be leased temprarily to PA, as msn 204, 205, 206 were already reserved for AF and BA.
 
philb
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RE: Prototype Concorde's At Museums In 70s? True

Sun Oct 29, 2006 7:10 pm

I agree that Pan Am's intention, back in June 1963 had been to start service in parallel with the then BOAC and AF but, even by 1970, there were real doubts as to the commitment of the UK government to the project and to the commitment of even BOAC and AF.

In July 1972, probably under government pressure from both sides of the Channel, BOAC and AF signed for 5 and 4 aircraft respectively.

These became G-BOAA - G-BOAE and F-BVFA- F-BVFD respectively. For publicity and marketing purposes the first BOAC aircraft was to be registered G-BOAC followed by A, B and D - in what proved to be a futile exercise after the formation of BA, long before G-BOAC took to the air.

Pan Am (and TWA) were key option holders and, as soon as BOAC and Air France had signed, they were pressured to convert their options to orders. Both airlines were fairly broke as, as you say, they had overstretched themselves putting the 747 into service with seats they couldn't fill due to the high ticket prices which regulators on both sides of the Atlantic imposed.

During six months of intensive negotiations it became clear that the only profitable operation of Concorde would be as a "Super First Class" aircraft with tickets at a premium above normal first class prices. Range was also a problem.

After a very public negotiation and intense media interest the two airlines pulled out in January 1973 as the first production airframes against the BOAC and AF aircraft were being laid down.

From the time of the first British doubts about Concorde, under the Wilson Government of 1964, it had been agreed with the French exactly which aircraft would be built. Four initial prototypes, two of which would be built to launch the aircraft as soon as possible, two to incorporate developmental changes and to be major test platforms.

Three further development aircraft were sanctioned to be "mules" to be much nearer the production standard, to be able to carry out pre-operational trials, to demonstrate to airlines and to be able to be modified to test changes demanded by customer airlines. F-BTSC was the last of these.

The Conservative Government had agreed with the French in 1972 that true production aircraft would not be built "on spec" - in other words an airframe would be only built against a firm order, thus no aircraft were ever built as "destined for Pan Am". As you say, Pan Am would have received the third production aircraft, but this would have been a true production machine, following on from the first for BOAC and AF.

Imagine the furore in the UK had Pan Am received an aircraft numerically ahead of BOAC, after the years of political wrangling and the accusations about waste of tax payer's money. The reaction in France would have been worse and far more jingoistic.

Had Pan Am had a change of heart and had wished to lease an aircraft they would have had to negotiate with either BOAC or AF for one of their slots - or persuaded the consortium to upgrade one of the 4 developmental aircraft. As the airline lost interest at around the time 'TSC's first metal was being cut, this never arised.

The conundrum about which was the first true production machine won't ever be solved. Brian Trubshaw couldn't answer the question in 1981 and I doubt we'll ever reach a definitive answer 25 years on from my conversation with him.

My magazines and newspaper cuttings of the period 1972-1977 don't help, my memories of visits to the BAC/BAe facility at Fairford and BA at Heathrow don't either.

How many mods G-BBDG received during the period it was used for BA's familiarisation and handling trials to bring it to as near to production standard aren't in the public domain to my knowledge.

I had conversations with BA engineering staff at the time who were on the acceptance team and they said that regular changes were made bringing the aircraft as near to production standard as possible within the limitations of the core airframe.

Why 'TSC and 'BOAC were heavier also seems to be lost in the mists of time.
 
philb
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RE: Prototype Concorde's At Museums In 70s? True

Sun Oct 29, 2006 7:37 pm

Sorry SSC, you are incorrect re options. BOAC, Air France and Pan Am all announced options for 6 aircraft on Jume 3 1963.

The 1964 dates for BOAC and Air France are dates when the two airlines added extra options and reconfirmed their interest.

The June 1963 option date by all three airlines is widely quoted on the Net but, more importantly is shown in contemporaneous publications such as Flight and Air Pictorial.

I also have the benefit of memory, being 16 at the time and very much into aviation.

If you read my last post you will see why your last paragraph states something that just isn't so.
 
FlySSC
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RE: Prototype Concorde's At Museums In 70s? True

Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:45 pm

Quoting Philb (Reply 16):
Imagine the furore in the UK had Pan Am received an aircraft numerically ahead of BOAC, after the years of political wrangling and the accusations about waste of tax payer's money. The reaction in France would have been worse and far more jingoistic.

I doubt it would have been a problem ...
For most of the people, an aircraft is just an aircraft ! Most of them don't even know that aircraft have series number !

Quoting Philb (Reply 17):
Sorry SSC, you are incorrect re options. BOAC, Air France and Pan Am all announced options for 6 aircraft on Jume 3 1963.

The 1964 dates for BOAC and Air France are dates when the two airlines added extra options and reconfirmed their interest.

That's not the informations I have.
Here is the entire list of options placed for Concorde by airlines, and cancellation dates :

June 3rd 1963 - Pan Am for 6 aircraft - 3 from AS* / 3 from BAC* - Cancelled on Jan. 31 1973
July 24th 1963 - Continental for 3 a/c from BAC - Cancelled March 1973
Oct.7th 1963 - American Airlines for 4 a/c from AS - Cancelled in Feb. 1973
Oct.16th 1963 - TWA for 4 a/c from BAC - Cancelled in Feb. 1973
Dec.4th 1963 - MEA/Air Liban for 2 a/c from AS - Cancelled in June 1973
Jan.16th 1964 - American Airline for 2 more a/c from AS - Cancelled in Feb.1973
Jan.30th 1964 - Declarartion of Intention from AF to purchase 8 a/c from AS - Order for 4 aircraft confirmed on July 28th 1972.
April 14th 1964 - Declaration of Intention from BOAC to purchase 8 a/c from BAC - Order for 5 aircraft confirmed on July 28th 1972.
March 19th 1964 - QANTAS for 4 a/c from BAC - Options never officially cancelled.
March 30th 1964 - TWA for 2 more a/c from BAC - Cancelled in Feb. 1973
Jul. 15th 1964 - Air India for 2 a/c from BAC - Cancelled Feb. 1975
Sept. 30th 1965 - Japan Air Lines for 3 a/c from AS - Cancelled in 1973
Dec 1st 1975 - SABENA for 2 a/c from AS - Cancelled in Feb. 1973
June 28th 1966 - Eastern Airlines for 2 a/c from AS - Cancelled in Feb. 1973
June 29th 1966 - United Airlines for 6 a/c from BAC - Cancelled in Nov. 1972
Jul. 24th 1966 - PanAM for 2 more a/c - 1 from BAC & 1 from AS - Cancelled on January 31st 1973
Aug. 15th 1966 - Eastern Airlines for 2 more a/c from AS - Cancelled in Feb.1973
Sept. 1st 1966 - Braniff for 3 aircraft from AS - Cancelled Feb. 1973
Feb. 16th 1967 - Lufthansa for 3 a/c from AS - Cancelled Aptil 1973
March 1st 1967 - Air Canada for 4 a/c from BAC - Cancelled June 1972
April 28th 1967 - Easter Airlines for 2 more a/c from AS - Cancelled in Feb 1973
July 24th 1972 - CAAC for 2 a/c from AS - Cancelled in Dec. 1979
Aug 28th 1972 - CAAC for 1 a/c from BAC - Cancelled Feb. 1980
Oct. 8th 1972 - Iran Air for 3 a/c from BAC - Cancelled in Feb. 1980.

*AS = Sud Aviation / Aérospatiale France.
BAC = British Aircraft Corporation.
 
philb
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RE: Prototype Concorde's At Museums In 70s? True

Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:22 pm

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 18):
I doubt it would have been a problem ...
For most of the people, an aircraft is just an aircraft ! Most of them don't even know that aircraft have series number !

Then you know absolutely nothing of the furore that the whole of the Concorde programme caused from time to time in, particularly, the UK both politically and economically.

You need to have an understanding of the time, the politics and the employment situation of the 1960s and the early 1970s.

Concorde was a mainstream news item, particularly in the UK, from 1964 onwards, (the inception of the first Wilson Government).

I lived through that period. In 1964 I was studying Government for A level exams and Concorde was a case study I did regarding international treaties and, in particular, the Common Market and joint projects.

From 1965 onwards I had various connections with the aviation industry and an ongoing interest as an enthusiast. From the early 1970s I had good contacts with BOAC and some of the people working on Concorde acquisition.

As I said before, the dates regarding 'TSC's build, its purpose and the date of Pan Am's withdrawal of options don't fit your model.

As to the option dates, what is your source? Do a search on the Net and you'll find many instances of the announcement in June 1963 being listed, see for instance http://www.salon-du-bourget.com/concorde_history.htm.

Both Flight International (June 13 1963) and Air Pictorial (July and August 1963) show that Pan Am optioned 6 aircraft on Monday June 3 1963 at the Paris Air Salon, Le Bourget. BOAC and Air France followed suit the same day with 6 options each. Juan Trippe got in with a written option a few hours ahead of the European airlines to hit the headlines for a very political reason.

Pan Am needed a bigger, longer range and faster aircraft than any version of Concorde then under discussion or development. He was very much in favour of what became the B2707 project and always admitted he optioned Concorde as a "hedge and lever" - hedging against the failure of the US to produce an SST, spending dollars in Europe to lever the Kennedy government to back an American SST.

In the short term he got his way. Just one day later (June 4 1963) Kennedy announced that the USA would build an SST and the airframe manufacturers entered a competition for government funding.
 
philb
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RE: Prototype Concorde's At Museums In 70s? True

Sun Oct 29, 2006 11:27 pm

Just a side note, interestingly the French language version of the Salon du Bourget Concorde pages gives the date of the signature (as opposed to the announcement) of the options as June 15 1963 :

15/06/1963 BOAC et Air France ainsi que Pan American signent des options d'achat
 
scarebus03
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RE: Prototype Concorde's At Museums In 70s? True

Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:03 am

Can anyone tell me which prototype is on display at Le Bourget?

Brgds
SB03
No faults found......................
 
philb
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RE: Prototype Concorde's At Museums In 70s? True

Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:33 am

001 F-WTSS

The rest of this post is to pad out because, according to the rules, the definitive answer is "too short and probably not of any higher value to the topic in hand" whatever that gobbledygook means.

[Edited 2006-10-29 16:34:34]
 
FlySSC
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RE: Prototype Concorde's At Museums In 70s? True

Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:18 am

Quoting Philb (Reply 19):
As I said before, the dates regarding 'TSC's build, its purpose and the date of Pan Am's withdrawal of options don't fit your model.



Quoting Philb (Reply 13):
From where do you get the idea that 'TSC was originally for Pan Am?

http://www.concordesst.com/203.html

http://www.geocities.com/worldplus24/1976-concorde-commercial.html
 
philb
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RE: Prototype Concorde's At Museums In 70s? True

Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:26 am

Concordesst is a very good source of info but in places misses items and is not 100% definitive.

The geocities site is another that has bits and pieces picked from other sites, some correct, some incorrect.

As stated before, 'TSC was designed as a 100 series (i.e. not quite production standard aircraft), one of three to be used for demonstration/trials. The agreement to build it went back as far as late 1967, early 1968 (dates vary in different accounts) long before any orders were assigned to line numbers.

It was built as a non specific airline model, it was started at the time Pan Am cancelled its options and after an agreement between the two governments that aircraft after the 3 100 series would only be built to order.

It was not converted to airline standard (type 101) until after its second lease to Air France terminated on 11/06/79 at which time AF entered into negotiations to buy the aircraft outright.

At one tonne heavier than the airline series aircraft I'm sure Pan Am would have been deliriously happy to have accepted an albatross to be their flagship aircraft.

The story is nonsense, has no basis in contemporary media and was probably invented when someone wondered why the French built two 100 series against one from the UK.

As to the geocities site - it is a pastiche of truth and fiction. For instance it can be read to imply that G-BOAC was a 100 series aircraft:

"F-BTSC, initially intended for Pan Am, was 970kg heavier than the other Concordes (like G-BOAC) being a 100 version."

This could also be read as all other Concordes were, like G-BOAC, lighter. It is bad phrasing by someone trying to write a very potted history with little research and using any and every source.

I'm surprised you are using it as a basis of proof as your statement:

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 15):
PanAM was the very first airline to place options for 6 Concorde (3 from BAC & 3 from AS), on June 3rd 1963, well before AF ( 8 a/c on Jan.30th 1964) and BOAC (8 a/c on April 14th 1964).
If the case of AF and BOAC at those dates, it was not even "options", firmly placed, but a "declaration of intention to order the aircraft.

is totally contradicted by the first sentence in the piece you highlight:

"Alongside BOAC and Pan Am, Air France (AF) outlined its interest well ahead of the development of the Franco-British supersonic airliner project, signing an reservation for six airplanes on 03 June 1963."

There is a great deal of scrambled history in both books and on the Internet. When I make a statement about historic fact on this forum, it is based on documents, media, if possible experience of the time, cross checked with information that was later published and verified by sources known to be accurate.
 
GDB
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RE: Prototype Concorde's At Museums In 70s? True

Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:29 am

I doubt that PA would have seen the 203 airframe as an 'albatross', since when we say it was (like 204), heavier by around a tonne than later aircraft, we mean by later, 215-216.
We used 204 on all routes, including non stop BGI ones.
But in heavy maint, the differences of 204, though minor, were apparent.

We have to remember that all were virtually hand built, as we found during the 2000/2001 tank mod programme.
(OAF's first batch of liners, all had to be returned. We expected this really, the whole effort was at a breakneck pace, but EADS responded brilliantly).

I suspect Concorde was less controversial in France than the UK, since there was no sustained media campaign against it, much more unaminity in governments, their civil service and treasury were not out to axe it at every opportunity, they just do not produce people like Richard Wiggs-or not as many or as prominent.
The mindset is different. Self flagellation not being part of it.

BA never shied away from pointing out G-BOAC's registration significance.

For a time in the mid 80's, BA seriously looked at getting 202 in service, before the spares reclaimantion bit hard.
However, differences to some structural areas than subsequent aircraft, coupled with some of the test flying that it had carried out, meant it would only be mandated for a limited operational pax carrying life, it was not worth it, we needed the spares, so that was it.
But it shows that BA wanted more aircraft in that period.
Rather ironic really.
 
philb
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RE: Prototype Concorde's At Museums In 70s? True

Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:40 am

My point about 'TSC and Pan Am was that, as they already had significant questions about the type's range, why would they accept what was a heavier aircraft than the projected standard?

However, that is moot as the situation never existed.

I like the "hand built" statement. I just wonder how the two lines would have coped with large series production and at what stage they would have settled into totally cloned production (as far as anyone can in engineering).

Whilst the Brits made much more of a political fuss about the project I think the French would have been mortally wounded if Pan Am had received the "first" aircraft and started service before AF. It would have been politically unacceptable.
 
gordonroxburgh
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RE: Prototype Concorde's At Museums In 70s? True

Mon Oct 30, 2006 5:13 am

Concorde is a big topic, but here some info

Production aircraft 3 and 4 were designated for the route proving flights, while 1 and 2 did the technical certification work.

3 and 4 were very similar, the evolutionary changes were made from a/c 5 onwards.

If BA was to pick up deliveries from a/c 6 , they would never have been on schedule to start services in early 1976, so it was always part of the plan for a/c 4 to be refurbished as close to the standard of a/c 6 but still be available in early 76.

AF was loaned a/c 3 to back up their services until other a/c were delivered.

The Model 100/101/102 designation really did not mean that much structurally, they more defined buyer fitted equipment and detail specs, eg interior fit out, cockpit layout, types or radios, battery spec etc..

The BA and AF spec sheets take up 2 large ring bingers each...very interesting reading.

As you go though the BA engineering manuals, a/c 4 (004) is one of the ones that along with 214 gets a bit more singled out with changes. 216 was bought officially as BA's 6th ac with the 102 specs out of the box so to speak. 214 was an unsold a/c that BA essentially brought in line with their others thought the 80s.

Be interesting if anyone has info on 213 and 215 and their out of the box relationship to the 101 specs.

Going a bit further back up in the topic,

001 and 002 were classed as prototypes, but in reality they would better have been called experimental SSTs to prove the concept.

The pre-production a/c were essentially the prototypes that pretty much evolved into the production a/c.
 
scarebus03
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RE: Prototype Concorde's At Museums In 70s? True

Mon Oct 30, 2006 5:24 am

Quoting Scarebus03 (Reply 21):
Can anyone tell me which prototype is on display at Le Bourget

Thanks Philb,
No faults found......................
 
philb
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RE: Prototype Concorde's At Museums In 70s? True

Mon Oct 30, 2006 5:25 am

Gordon,

Just to clarify are you saying that a/c 1 was F-WTSB/201, a/c 2 was G-BBDG/202, a/c 3 was F-WTSC/203 and a/c 4 was G-BOAC/204?

In that case was a/c 5 F-BVFA/205 built to the same spec as G-BOAC?
 
gordonroxburgh
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RE: Prototype Concorde's At Museums In 70s? True

Mon Oct 30, 2006 5:53 am

Philb

Your right about the numbers.

G-BOAC (a/c4) was closest in spec to F-WTSC (a/c 3) but a full upgrade to BA spec was planned into its use, however it was still different from a/c 6. a/c 3 and 4 both flew within a month of each other in 1975, so you were not going to have any seriously significant design changes between them.....and I guess for certification you wanted them pretty much the same.

To put some of this in context, G-BOAF after her post-accident mods was still lighter then G-BOAC.
 
philb
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RE: Prototype Concorde's At Museums In 70s? True

Mon Oct 30, 2006 5:58 am

Thanks Gordon. This whole topic turns up new info every time it's aired.

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