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carnoc
Posts: 758
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Confirmed: Qantas Orders Additional A380 Aircraft

Sun Oct 29, 2006 11:36 am

Quote:
On October 29, Qantas Airways announced that it had placed firm orders for eight more Airbus A380s, the world's largest passenger aircraft.

The Chief Executive Officer of Qantas, Mr Geoff Dixon, said the order increased the airline's commitment to the A380 to 20 aircraft, to be delivered between August 2008 and 2015.

Mr Dixon said the A380 was clearly the most suitable aircraft for Qantas to deploy on dense longhaul routes from Australia to the United States, the United Kingdom, Continental Europe and possibly the Middle East.

Full details available at http://en.carnoc.com/list/1/1294.html

Cheers.
 
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Stitch
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Confirmed: Qantas Orders Additional A380 Aircraft

Sun Oct 29, 2006 11:38 am

This should cause SQ to pull the trigger on their extra nine.

Looks like there's life in the gal, after all.

Looking more and more like the 748 is going to appeal only to non-A380 operators. I imagine EK's comments about it are just smoke to try and get some better terms from Airbus on their A346 cancellation. I expect 773ERs will be replacing those birds, not 748s.
 
boeingfever777
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Confirmed: Qantas Orders Additional A380 Aircraft

Sun Oct 29, 2006 11:41 am

Guess they got a sweet deal to firm up these orders. Dixon, is right... works for the LAX, SFO, and LHR routes.

Wonder what SQ will do now?

and 2015? damn that is long.
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Francoflier
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Confirmed: Qantas Orders Additional A380 Aircraft

Sun Oct 29, 2006 11:45 am

Could it be some kind of 'please forgive us' deal from Airbus?

Not that I doubt that they'll need those A/Cs in the future.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
N31029
Posts: 80
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Confirmed: Qantas Orders Additional A380 Aircraft

Sun Oct 29, 2006 11:47 am

Hi Everyone.

Even if the A380 achieves nothing more than niche status over its lifetime, it is certainly a niche that only it can fill - thus - operators in need of a VLA know their long-term business model has only one solution. And they have the vision, and patience, to await its arrival.

To me this is excellent business planning and shows great foresight on the part of airlines wishing to capitalize on the A380 opportunity.

Could all of these airlines be wrong?

Blessings, N31029
John 3:16
 
cloudyapple
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Confirmed: Qantas Orders Additional A380 Aircraft

Sun Oct 29, 2006 11:50 am

http://www.qantas.com.au/regions/dyn.../details?ArticleID=2006/oct06/3498

Qantas Orders Additional A380 Aircraft

Sydney, 29 October 2006

Qantas Airways announced today that it had placed firm orders for eight more Airbus A380s, the world¡¦s largest passenger aircraft.

The Chief Executive Officer of Qantas, Mr Geoff Dixon, said the order increased the airline¡¦s commitment to the A380 to 20 aircraft, to be delivered between August 2008 and 2015.

Mr Dixon said the A380 was clearly the most suitable aircraft for Qantas to deploy on dense longhaul routes from Australia to the United States, the United Kingdom, Continental Europe and possibly the Middle East.

"Our decision to increase our order has been made after an extensive review of the recent problems at Airbus and the delivery schedule delays of the A380.

"We are convinced that these problems relate to industrialisation issues at Airbus and will be remedied, and in no way relate to the technical capacity of the A380.

"The A380 has breakthrough technology and everything we have seen reinforces our view that it is the best available aircraft for Qantas.

"It will provide unprecedented comfort and space, as well as meeting our payload and range requirements."

Mr Dixon said Qantas had made an original order for 12 A380s with options for a further 12 aircraft in 2000.

"We have negotiated an attractive ¡¥package¡¦ to firm up an additional eight A380s. The package also includes an additional four A330-200 aircraft which will help Qantas mitigate capacity concerns associated with the delay of the airline¡¦s first A380s.

"The four A330-200s will be delivered between December 2007 and December 2008."

Mr Dixon said the terms of the new contract provided, among other things, protection against any further delay in the A380 delivery schedule and slide rights in the event of changed circumstances.

He said the Qantas Board believed the new aircraft order gave the Qantas Group long term certainty of supply of the world¡¦s most up to date aircraft.

"In parallel with the A380 order, we have a contract with Boeing for the supply from 2008 of up to 115 B787 new generation aircraft, which also have the very latest technology for aircraft in the 300 seater range.

"The Boeing 787 and the Airbus A380 both have up to 20 per cent lower operating costs than existing aircraft and will form the nucleus of the fleets out to 2015 for Qantas and our low cost airline Jetstar."

Mr Dixon said Qantas would use a combination of outright purchase and operating leases in acquiring the aircraft.

"All the costs of these new aircraft will be met by operating cash flows," he said.

Mr Dixon said Qantas had also decided to buy five more Boeing 737-800 aircraft for delivery from February 2008.

"The Boeing 737-800s will be used along with our existing 33 B737-800s in Australian domestic operations and will replace older B737-400s. The B737-400s will be sold, redeployed or converted to dedicated freighter aircraft."

The Qantas Airways Group has a fleet of 219 aircraft.

[Edited 2006-10-29 04:02:57]
A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
 
Neo
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Confirmed: Qantas Orders Additional A380 Aircraft

Sun Oct 29, 2006 11:52 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
This should cause SQ to pull the trigger on their extra nine.

why should they?? Albeit all the problems faced by the A380, airlines seem to be willing to back up the project afterall, even with some Airbus extra help..rsrsrs
 
Boston92
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Confirmed: Qantas Orders Additional A380 Aircraft

Sun Oct 29, 2006 11:54 am

Is Qantas the only airline that has 787 AND A380 orders?
"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
 
cloudyapple
Posts: 1261
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Confirmed: Qantas Orders Additional A380 Aircraft

Sun Oct 29, 2006 11:56 am

Note an additional 4 A332s in the package. Also 5 more B738s.

So far 3 of the original A388 customers have placed follow on orders despite all the negative news on the program. None has pulled the plug, yet. Glad airline executives think longterm unlike some A388 bashers. This is going to put the pressure on airlines not ordered the A388 but competing with those who have ordered. B748 is a good aeroplane but is it good enough to compete?

[Edited 2006-10-29 03:58:30]
A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
 
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PanAm_DC10
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Confirmed: Qantas Orders Additional A380 Aircraft

Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:05 pm

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 7):
Is Qantas the only airline that has 787 AND A380 orders?

No, Singapore Airlines have both models on order too as does KE & CZ

Regards, PanAm_DC10
Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
 
futurecaptain
Posts: 1918
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Confirmed: Qantas Orders Additional A380 Aircraft

Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:07 pm

I bet Airbus offered such deep discounts the airline couldn't refuse. Qantas executives are probably laughing at how cheap they got these birds.

Still the situation remains that there havn't really been new orders for the A380 in awhile. Alot of airlines just firming up options they've had for years.
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sanjet
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Confirmed: Qantas Orders Additional A380 Aircraft

Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:18 pm

Could this be due to the facts that the airlines received cash compensations for the late deliveries and are partially using that money to gain more aircraft and possibly reselling them later on? Could the deal be that sweet?
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UALMMFlyer
Posts: 122
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Confirmed: Qantas Orders Additional A380 Aircraft

Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:19 pm

IMHO, Qantas has just made a great business deal. Airbus also made a deal that is critical for strategic reasons.... by keeping 748I out of two airlines very with greatest needs for large aircrafts (SQ being the other).

The positive annocunements by SQ and QF on the performance of the A380 can not be over shadowed by numrous remarks about Airbus made deals on pricing that airlines couldn't refuse. At the end of the day, airlines still need to operate an efficient fleet with desired performance to make money. No one should sell A380 short with two creditable customers with more more orders.

I wonder how this will implact of QF's plan on ULR aircrafts? Are they still considering buying 77W and 772LR?
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aussie_
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Confirmed: Qantas Orders Additional A380 Aircraft

Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:24 pm

So are the 4x 332s those previously announced (2x JQ and 2x QF) or are these a further 4?
 
futurecaptain
Posts: 1918
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Confirmed: Qantas Orders Additional A380 Aircraft

Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:30 pm

Quoting UALMMFlyer (Reply 12):
Airbus made deals on pricing that airlines couldn't refuse.



Quoting Sanjet (Reply 11):
gain more aircraft and possibly reselling them later on?

Good idea Sanjet. We all know airlines are now getting these aircraft very cheaply, by very large new aircraft standards. Could we perhaps see some of these up for sale, Qantas could probably make money on a sale, get some quick cash to put into other airline operations. Perhaps a leasing company will take them?
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777ER
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Confirmed: Qantas Orders Additional A380 Aircraft

Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:32 pm

Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 5):
The B737-400s will be sold, redeployed or converted to dedicated freighter aircraft."

Some of those B734s will replace the rest of Jetconnects B733 fleet.
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SKY1
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Confirmed: Qantas Orders Additional A380 Aircraft

Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:45 pm

Quoting Aussie_ (Reply 13):
So are the 4x 332s those previously announced (2x JQ and 2x QF) or are these a further 4?

"We have negotiated an attractive 'package' to firm up an additional eight A380s. The package also includes an additional four A330-200 aircraft which will help Qantas mitigate capacity concerns associated with the delay of the airline's first A380s.

"The four A330-200s will be delivered between December 2007 and December 2008."
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mariner
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Confirmed: Qantas Orders Additional A380 Aircraft

Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:45 pm

Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 14):
We all know airlines are now getting these aircraft very cheaply, by very large new aircraft standards.

We "all" know?

I don't know that. Do you have a source?

mariner
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planemanofnz
Posts: 1529
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Confirmed: Qantas Orders Additional A380 Aircraft

Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:02 pm

Hopefully now this means we will see the 380 on selected Trans-Tasman flights to AKL and CHC and also maybe we will see the 380 on the MEL-AKL-LAX route.
 
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PanAm_DC10
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Confirmed: Qantas Orders Additional A380 Aircraft

Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:08 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
This should cause SQ to pull the trigger on their extra nine.

With respect, please provide me with one link that states SQ would not take the 9 they have on LoI. I do not believe they have publicly stated that commitment is in question.

Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 10):
Still the situation remains that there havn't really been new orders for the A380 in awhile. Alot of airlines just firming up options they've had for years.

Options conversions are still sales, right? What's more SQ & QF are not exactly second tier customers either. Once these 2 LoI's are firmed then they will have succeeded in placing new orders, irrespective as to whether they are with existing customers. Accept the fact, that despite it's problems, the A380 can still sell.

Quoting Aussie_ (Reply 13):
So are the 4x 332s those previously announced (2x JQ and 2x QF) or are these a further 4?

As the following member pointed out;

Quoting SKY1 (Reply 16):
The package also includes an additional four A330-200 aircraft

It is my understanding that they are 4 new A332s over and above what has previously been announced.

Regards, PanAm_DC10
Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
 
Asturias
Posts: 1953
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:32 am

Confirmed: Qantas Orders Additional A380 Aircraft

Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:24 pm

Good news and congratulations to Airbus. The A380 is coming. Carriers are drawn to it.

The news of its demise are greatly exaggerated  Wink

cheers

Asturias
Tonight we fly
 
Leskova
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Confirmed: Qantas Orders Additional A380 Aircraft

Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:31 pm

Quoting Sanjet (Reply 11):
Could this be due to the facts that the airlines received cash compensations for the late deliveries and are partially using that money to gain more aircraft and possibly reselling them later on? Could the deal be that sweet?

Which, of course, they could only do if the aircraft sold at all - which is something that a lot of people around here still doubt that it will...

Then again, heaven forbid, Qantas might just actually want to operate those planes themselves...
Smile - it confuses people!
 
VHVXB
Posts: 5309
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Confirmed: Qantas Orders Additional A380 Aircraft

Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:34 pm

Quoting Planemanofnz (Reply 18):
maybe we will see the 380 on the MEL-AKL-LAX route.

Probably not but you may starting seeing QF using its 3 class B744 on that route
 
WingedMigrator
Posts: 1769
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Confirmed: Qantas Orders Additional A380 Aircraft

Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:41 pm

Quoting Asturias (Reply 20):
The news of its demise are greatly exaggerated

 checkmark  for a moment I thought it was April 1st. Great news for the A380 program... after a month of despair.

Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 10):
I bet Airbus offered such deep discounts the airline couldn't refuse.

Of course, since we all know it couldn't possibly be a good airplane.  covereyes 
 
A5XX
Posts: 217
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Confirmed: Qantas Orders Additional A380 Aircraft

Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:42 pm

Airbus is having tough times, right now. No one can deny that. But, eventually, they'll get the things fixed up.

By then, the A380, will be the rightful Queen of the skies.  Smile

We need a healthy Airbus, just as we need a healthy Boeing.  Smile

A5XX
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jacobin777
Posts: 12262
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Confirmed: Qantas Orders Additional A380 Aircraft

Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:52 pm

Quoting UALMMFlyer (Reply 12):
IMHO, Qantas has just made a great business deal. Airbus also made a deal that is critical for strategic reasons.... by keeping 748I out of two airlines very with greatest needs for large aircrafts (SQ being the other).

 checkmark ...

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 19):
Options conversions are still sales, right? What's more SQ & QF are not exactly second tier customers either. Once these 2 LoI's are firmed then they will have succeeded in placing new orders, irrespective as to whether they are with existing customers. Accept the fact, that despite it's problems, the A380 can still sell.

Two top-tiered customers indeed..it didn't seem as if QF might pull the trigger on their options, but they did....


Congratulations to both QF and Airbus on another successful sale of the A380... checkmark 

Before SQ took out their LoI on the other A380's, Leahy did say they will get some more sales...and they did..

At least Airbus' widebody order book is looking better..its nice to see some parity!

Unfortunately, it seems as if the 748I isn't going to be in QF colours..... Sad

That being said, I dont' think Boeing should be too disappointed...especially given..

Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 5):
with Boeing for the supply from 2008 of up to 115 B787 new generation aircraft,



Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 5):
"The Boeing 737-800s will be used along with our existing 33 B737-800s in Australian domestic operations and will replace older B737-400s. The B737-400s will be sold, redeployed or converted to dedicated freighter aircraft."

There are enough planes to go around for everyone..

Congrats to Airbus.. checkmark 
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baron95
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Confirmed: Qantas Orders Additional A380 Aircraft

Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:03 pm

Couldn't have come at a better time for Airbus. Deep discounts or not, 8 additional A380s is no small change - it shows a true conviction by QF that the airplane will perform well.

Now Airbus needs to fill the order book to make sure they have orders all the way to 2015 to keep the line open - the QF 2015 delivery must be the latest delivery slot yet (at least on the passanger version).
Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
 
calags
Posts: 47
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Confirmed: Qantas Orders Additional A380 Aircraft

Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:11 pm

Quoting UALMMFlyer (Reply 12):
The positive annocunements by SQ and QF on the performance of the A380 can not be over shadowed by numrous remarks about Airbus made deals on pricing that airlines couldn't refuse. At the end of the day, airlines still need to operate an efficient fleet with desired performance to make money. No one should sell A380 short with two creditable customers with more more orders.

Well, this strongly suggests that the performance numbers for the A380 that are being presented to the airlines are satisfactory to both QF and SQ otherwise they are not likely to commit to more airframes no matter how low the price. Both airlines already have a little bit of egg on their face because of the delays and it doesn't seem credible that with all that has happened already that they would risk more embarrassment if the A380 performance numbers end up being below par.

The tragedy of this all for Airbus is that if it weren't for the delays and the penalties due to them then these firmed up options could have been helping to pay back their development costs. As it stands they're likely to be net-neutral or slightly positive at best.
 
ehho
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Confirmed: Qantas Orders Additional A380 Aircraft

Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:24 pm

Quoting Calags (Reply 27):
As it stands they're likely to be net-neutral or slightly positive at best.

Uhm.. It was announced last week that break-even will be at 420 frames currently. Quite a long way to go yet..
Break-even Outlook For A380 Now At 420 Aircraft (by Leelaw Oct 19 2006 in Civil Aviation) Break-even Outlook For A380 Now At 420...- Part 2! (by Gilesdavies Oct 22 2006 in Civil Aviation)

[Edited 2006-10-29 06:26:24]
"Get your facts first. Then you may distort them as much as you please" -- Mark Twain
 
osiris30
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Confirmed: Qantas Orders Additional A380 Aircraft

Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:29 pm

Quoting Calags (Reply 27):
As it stands they're likely to be net-neutral or slightly positive at best.

 checkmark  And that's the real shame of this. I'm guessing QF got them at a song and is taken advantage of the vacated Virgin slots (i.e. either those slots or some freed as a result of someone else taking Virgin's slots). Very smart by QF by the way. They were already going to operate the type, if they can get them at a *good* price why not load up.

As much as I don't think there's much of a market for the huge things, there is some, and those that need them would be well advised to get them as cheaply as possible. Looks like that's exactly what QF just did.

Grats to QF on a great business move and grats to Airbus on moving some more frames.

Having said that I would *love* to know what the margin is on the order (including the additional non-380 frames). From the wording of the press release QF is making it sound like they cut a hell of a deal.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
PITrules
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Confirmed: Qantas Orders Additional A380 Aircraft

Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:31 pm

Quoting UALMMFlyer (Reply 12):
Airbus also made a deal that is critical for strategic reasons.... by keeping 748I out of two airlines very with greatest needs for large aircrafts (SQ being the other).

How are potential future 748i orders by SQ and QF being kept out? Both have large 744 fleets which are only getting older. The A380 will replace some, but I doubt all, 744s.
FLYi
 
calags
Posts: 47
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Confirmed: Qantas Orders Additional A380 Aircraft

Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:32 pm

Quoting EHHO (Reply 28):
Uhm.. It was announced last week that break-even will be at 420 frames currently. Quite a long way to go yet..

I didn't mean to suggest that the new orders would bring Airbus to the break-even point. I was merely speculating if the new orders would actually bring the program closer to it or leave it where it was. Essentially, is it a step forward, a step back or are they standing still?
 
art
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Confirmed: Qantas Orders Additional A380 Aircraft

Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:34 pm

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 26):
Now Airbus needs to fill the order book to make sure they have orders all the way to 2015 to keep the line open

That is not going to be too difficult:

Current announced orders - ca 175
Production to end 2010 - ca 40

Production @ 40 frames per year from 2011 means the line is fully committed into 2013. Airbus would need to sell about another 70 to keep the line busy until 2015.

Can anyone foresee Airbus failing to sell another 70 A380's for delivery before 2015? To save some antipodean typing, I'll add "apart from Nav".
 
osiris30
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Confirmed: Qantas Orders Additional A380 Aircraft

Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:43 pm

Quoting EHHO (Reply 28):
Uhm.. It was announced last week that break-even will be at 420 frames currently. Quite a long way to go yet..

I think he was talking about the frames themselves... in other words they may contribute slightly in the general hunt to breakeven but not much.. and I tend to agree.

Quoting Art (Reply 32):
Can anyone foresee Airbus failing to sell another 70 A380's for delivery before 2015? To save some antipodean typing, I'll add "apart from Nav".

70 frames is a lot of frames when you are talking about a market that is optimistically forecast at best to be 1200 by 2025 LOL. It's possible they will, it's possible they won't. ALOT is going to depend on how they work on EIS. If they smash the numbers and have good dispatch numbers Airbus will likely sell the frames to keep the line moving. If they don't, look out below.

[editted for typo]

[Edited 2006-10-29 06:44:02]
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
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mariner
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Confirmed: Qantas Orders Additional A380 Aircraft

Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:48 pm

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 29):
From the wording of the press release QF is making it sound like they cut a hell of a deal.

Hmmm?

They say "an attractive package". which I am sure it was. But they are unlikely to say anything else ("Airbus is robbing us blind on these orders", seems unlikely?).

I know of one small airline that had problems because an Airbus narrowbody was damaged in a test flight before delivery.

The airline negotiated "an attractive package" with Airbus to cover the delay - but it didn't involve a reduction on the price of the aircraft. It involved something that was, at that stage, actually more useful to the airline.

 Smile

mariner

[Edited 2006-10-29 06:49:24]
aeternum nauta
 
khobar
Posts: 1336
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Confirmed: Qantas Orders Additional A380 Aircraft

Sun Oct 29, 2006 3:03 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 34):
The airline negotiated "an attractive package" with Airbus to cover the delay - but it didn't involve a reduction on the price of the aircraft. It involved something that was, at that stage, actually more useful to the airline.

They got 4 A330's and a guarantee that they won't have any further problems with the A380. That doesn't sound like a hell of a deal?
 
boeing767-300
Posts: 621
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Confirmed: Qantas Orders Additional A380 Aircraft

Sun Oct 29, 2006 3:07 pm

Quoting Calags (Reply 27):
Well, this strongly suggests that the performance numbers for the A380 that are being presented to the airlines are satisfactory to both QF and SQ otherwise they are not likely to commit to more airframes no matter how low the price.

hmm.....MD11??? Just because Airbus say it does not mean it is factual. Remember it was a 555 three class and now its 480 seats... go figure!!!!

Quoting Calags (Reply 27):
The tragedy of this all for Airbus is that if it weren't for the delays and the penalties due to them then these firmed up options could have been helping to pay back their development costs. As it stands they're likely to be net-neutral or slightly positive at best.

 checkmark 

It will be great news for Airbus when new orders come in at a decent margin not just launch discounts or "options" discounts further dicounted because of the production fiasco.

If a company sold me a Mercedes for the price of a Hyundai I will say anything as well. Frankly I think SQ and QF are watching each other closely and have both screwed Airbus at a vulnerable time. It does give A a little credibility but at what cost!!!!!!  scratchchin 
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8590
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Confirmed: Qantas Orders Additional A380 Aircraft

Sun Oct 29, 2006 3:15 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 34):

They say "an attractive package". which I am sure it was. But they are unlikely to say anything else ("Airbus is robbing us blind on these orders", seems unlikely?).

Of course not, contracts typically prevent disclosure of specific details.

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 26):
Couldn't have come at a better time for Airbus. Deep discounts or not, 8 additional A380s is no small change - it shows a true conviction by QF that the airplane will perform well.

Let's not be naive people, both the SQ and QF add-on orders are being made under extremely favorable terms. Airbus is being exploited for the A380 program delays, so there is little reason to celebrate...

SQ and QF have practically nothing to lose by placing an add-on order and it raises the stakes in the event another delay occurs. They've likely reached the point in their contracts where no other forms of compensation are available.
 
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mariner
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Confirmed: Qantas Orders Additional A380 Aircraft

Sun Oct 29, 2006 3:16 pm

Quoting Khobar (Reply 35):
That doesn't sound like a hell of a deal?

I odn't know what the "attractive package" is. I don't know what they are paying, for the A380's or the A330's.

Do you?

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
art
Posts: 2680
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

Confirmed: Qantas Orders Additional A380 Aircraft

Sun Oct 29, 2006 3:25 pm

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 33):
70 frames is a lot of frames when you are talking about a market that is optimistically forecast at best to be 1200 by 2025 LOL.

To be conservative, let's say that estimate of 1200 by 2025 is 100% out and that the market turns out to be 600. I guess that the A380 would gain two thirds of that VLA market, mostly for delivery in the next decade. Even on the basis outlined, selling another 70 in the next 5 years for delivery 2013 onwards is not too challenging IMO.
 
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mariner
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Confirmed: Qantas Orders Additional A380 Aircraft

Sun Oct 29, 2006 3:31 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 37):
Of course not, contracts typically prevent disclosure of specific details.

Exactly my point.

So I doubt anyone here knows what the actual deal is.

And as in my other point - definitions of "an attractive package" can be infinitely variable.

 

mariner

[Edited 2006-10-29 07:33:43]
aeternum nauta
 
2wingtips
Posts: 487
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:42 pm

Confirmed: Qantas Orders Additional A380 Aircraft

Sun Oct 29, 2006 3:31 pm

I wonder if QF snapped up some of VS's deferred A380s?

Firstly, I will congratulate Airbus. It is a significant order from a blue-chip customer, irrespective of the terms.
Airbus are obviously pulling out all stops to maintain their blue-chip customer base, as they should be. SQ looks OK, although I worry about the 350XWB and what the EIS/form of the airplane will now be. Will SQ be interested in a CFRP version with a 2015 EIS? I don't know. QF now looks OK.
The real concern for Airbus must be EK. Tim Clark isn't a happy chappy and in recent days he has:

- cancelled the 10 firm 346s orders. There never were 18 and 8 were really options.

- stated that the 350XWB is still "lacking". Not sure what is meant by that, but it doesn't sound good.

- said it would be foolish to discount any further A380 delays.

- said EK have received a preliminary offer from Boeing on 787-10s.

- said EK are looking at 20-30 748Is. This one has more twists, as they want the shorter fuselage, longer ranged version and still say it is additional to any A380s ordered and not at their expense. That could and likely will change if there are any further A380 delays.
EK appears to have put Airbus firmly on notice.
I will be very interested to see how this all pans out and I don't think Boeing will be too concerned if EK orders 20-30 748I and 100 787-10.
 
keesje
Posts: 8864
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Confirmed: Qantas Orders Additional A380 Aircraft

Sun Oct 29, 2006 3:32 pm

Quoting Boeingfever777 (Reply 2):
Guess they got a sweet deal to firm up these orders.



Quoting Francoflier (Reply 3):
Could it be some kind of 'please forgive us' deal from Airbus?



Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 8):
None has pulled the plug, yet.



Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 10):
I bet Airbus offered such deep discounts the airline couldn't refuse. Qantas executives are probably laughing at how cheap they got these birds.



Quoting UALMMFlyer (Reply 12):
The positive annocunements by SQ and QF on the performance of the A380 can not be over shadowed by numrous remarks about Airbus made deals on pricing that airlines couldn't refuse.



Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 14):
We all know airlines are now getting these aircraft very cheaply



Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 29):
From the wording of the press release QF is making it sound like they cut a hell of a deal.



Quoting Khobar (Reply 35):
They got 4 A330's and a guarantee that they won't have any further problems with the A380. That doesn't sound like a hell of a deal?



Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 36):
If a company sold me a Mercedes for the price of a Hyundai I will say anything as well.

Is there any information on the price or are we simply downplaying a remarkable signal to the market? We neither do have info on what price Boeing asked for QF to order 747-8s (free?)..

I think A380 movements of BA, VS, QF and SQ can not be seen separately.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
elvis777
Posts: 346
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2005 9:23 am

Confirmed: Qantas Orders Additional A380 Aircraft

Sun Oct 29, 2006 3:38 pm

Hi Keesje,

An order is an order. Congratulations, not just to you but to all eads supporters. Perhaps I am wrong and the orders will start turning up...

Peace

Elvis777
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osiris30
Posts: 2310
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 10:16 am

Confirmed: Qantas Orders Additional A380 Aircraft

Sun Oct 29, 2006 3:49 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 34):
They say "an attractive package". which I am sure it was. But they are unlikely to say anything else ("Airbus is robbing us blind on these orders", seems unlikely?).

Seeing as these were firming of previous options, and there's 4 a330s in the mix you can bet that the 330s came at next to nothing cost wise (or the 380s were significantly reduced in price to the point where the 330s were almost free). I'm not saying the 330 isn't a good plane, I'm just saying given the circumstances you KNOW QF could bend Airbus over a barrel and they would be fools not to have.

Quoting Art (Reply 39):
Even on the basis outlined, selling another 70 in the next 5 years for delivery 2013 onwards is not too challenging IMO.

In fairness I never said it was impossible, but I certainly wouldn't bet my life (or any sizeable amount of money) on it. Let me (for the sake of devil's advocate) throw this at you: In the last 2 years of that same forecast Airbus has sold 8 new 380s, and 0 380s that weren't conversions of previous options. Again I'm not saying they won't, but just pointing something out.

Quoting 2wingtips (Reply 41):
I don't think Boeing will be too concerned if EK orders 20-30 748I and 100 787-10.

If every time QF ordered 8 380s EK ordered that Boeing would buy the 380s and given them to QF LOL
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
dank
Posts: 926
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:35 am

Confirmed: Qantas Orders Additional A380 Aircraft

Sun Oct 29, 2006 3:51 pm

Quoting Khobar (Reply 35):
They got 4 A330's and a guarantee that they won't have any further problems with the A380. That doesn't sound like a hell of a deal?

As i read it, they are part of the negotiated package (and it isn't even clear to me that the negotiated package doesn't include extra costs for other frames). Most likely, Airbus said that instead of paying them in cash for the delays, they would apply them to other airframes. This is a good deal for both the airline and Airbus. Somewhat similar to what SQ probably did.

Quoting 2wingtips (Reply 41):
- stated that the 350XWB is still "lacking". Not sure what is meant by that, but it doesn't sound good.

At the same time they haven't gone for the 787 (and a statement like this doesn't help their bargaining with Boeing). What it seems to me is that they keep wanting the Airbus, but it doesn't spec to their heart's desire. It's like they want the best of the 787 and the 350 combined.

Cheers.
 
777ER
Crew
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Confirmed: Qantas Orders Additional A380 Aircraft

Sun Oct 29, 2006 3:57 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 42):
I think A380 movements of BA,

BA havn't ordered A380s
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mariner
Posts: 18257
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

Confirmed: Qantas Orders Additional A380 Aircraft

Sun Oct 29, 2006 4:01 pm

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 44):
I'm just saying given the circumstances you KNOW QF could bend Airbus over a barrel and they would be fools not to have.

I would hope they did bend over a barrel. I would hope they continue to bend over a barrel with any remaining A380 customers who are not yet "negotiated".

There is a difference between bending over a barrel and selling the farm, though.

In extremis, Qantas could have walked away. And I am sure Boeing would have given them "an attractive package" for some 748's.

So I suggest - only suggest - there has to be something in it for Airbus as well, else why do it?

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
WingedMigrator
Posts: 1769
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 9:45 am

Confirmed: Qantas Orders Additional A380 Aircraft

Sun Oct 29, 2006 4:01 pm

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 36):
It will be great news for Airbus when new orders come in at a decent margin not just launch discounts or "options" discounts further dicounted because of the production fiasco.

Why would the new orders be "further discounted" due to the production delays? All the delays were known when the order was placed. It's not like QF expected one thing and got another, as they did for their previous order of 12, something which definitely justifies compensation.

Besides, the delays have pushed the "sold out" date out to about 2012... what incentive would that give Airbus to cut sweetheart deals? It's not like they're desperately trying to fill production slots.

Another point of interest: the marginal cost to produce an A380 is $115M (per Morgan Stanley analysis). Between that and the list price of $300M, there's probably room for a comfortable margin, even after "buy one, get one free" sort of deals, and even if that margin is shared among Airbus, engine makers, and other big subcontractors on the program (e.g. SAFRAN, United Technologies, Goodrich, Honeywell)
 
dank
Posts: 926
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:35 am

Confirmed: Qantas Orders Additional A380 Aircraft

Sun Oct 29, 2006 4:05 pm

Quoting 777ER (Reply 46):
Quoting Keesje (Reply 42):I think A380 movements of BA,
BA havn't ordered A380s

And I would seriously doubt that they will except in the highly unlikely event that Boeing drops the 748i.

Quoting PITrules (Reply 30):
How are potential future 748i orders by SQ and QF being kept out? Both have large 744 fleets which are only getting older. The A380 will replace some, but I doubt all, 744s.

Nobody says that you have to replace like with like. It is likely that an airline like SQ will replace some 744s with 380s and some with 773s (or later possibly some variant of the 787 or 350). That's certainly my guess as to what SQ will be doing (and LH for that matter). For QF, it seems that the strategy is to concentrate 380s on certain trunk routes (say MEL/SYD-LAX, kangaroo route) and then use 787s to spread out other routes (more point-point rather than point-hub-point). I think that the new order pretty much would rule out adding the 748i. There isn't much room left for it in the fleet.

Cheers.

[Edited 2006-10-29 08:06:53]
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