777jaah
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AV's New Fleet #2

Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:33 pm

Hi all,

I know this has been discussed and no official word has come yet, and since BONGOs original thread was locked, I wanted to share a few inside information I just got:

Seems that the long haul deal went to Boeing. We'll see 787s in white and red. But for the single aisle order, Airbus got the order from Efromovich. Although it was a bit surprising for me to split the order, it seems that financially was the best option, specially all the dscounts received from Airbus after they were ruled out in the long haul portion of it.

My source is pretty confident an announcement willbe made soon enough, but until that day, things may change. I know this is not as SOLID as we all wanted to be, but i trust this guy and he has given me good info in the past, and I wanted to share with everyone around here.

Cheers


JAAH


Original thread by BONGO:
RE: This Is The New Fleet For Avianca! (by Avianca Aug 28 2006 in Civil Aviation)?
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RICARIZA
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RE: AV's New Fleet #2

Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:53 pm

Thanks 777Jaah,

It sounds very interesting, although a little weird taking into account Avianca's tradition for Boeing equipment, specially if they will keep buying it (787).

I know you trust your source, but I rather wait for the official statement before making any more comments!
I miss ACES, I am proud of AVIANCA & I am loyal to AMERICAN
 
juventus
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RE: AV's New Fleet #2

Sun Oct 29, 2006 11:00 pm

I guess AV has had the 787 in its sights for a while. Did they ever considered the 777?
 
jfk777
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RE: AV's New Fleet #2

Sun Oct 29, 2006 11:46 pm

Avianca's NO first class, Business and Coach internationally, would produce a 777 with nearly 300 seats. 300 passengers is too many for Avianca on any of there big international destinations. Madrid, Miami, EZE, GRU and JFK are 150 - 200 passengers daily. 767 & 787 territory.
 
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viasa
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RE: AV's New Fleet #2

Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:21 am

AV had phase-out two MD-83 and the next two will follow soon.
 
danimarroquin
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RE: AV's New Fleet #2

Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:59 am

Quoting Viasa (Reply 4):

wich MD's ?.
well the 787 is the best option for AV , but the A320 ?
I heard before that the best option for Colombia was the 737 .
 
Summa767
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RE: AV's New Fleet #2

Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:44 am

Thank you J, I look forward to the official news, and trust that your source will be proved right.

Quoting Viasa (Reply 4):
AV had phase-out two MD-83 and the next two will follow soon

So where are they going? Are they being replaced by MD83s from a different source, or simply F100s used in its place?
 
RCS763AV
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RE: AV's New Fleet #2

Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:55 am

Quoting Viasa (Reply 4):
AV had phase-out two MD-83 and the next two will follow soon.

Didndn´t see it coming, where did you get that info??? Why did they get two extra like a year ago? To dump them?? Maybe the F100s aren´t flying enough???

It would be a shame if AV ordered Airbus, the planes are just not suited for Colombian domestic routes. But if the airline wants to take the risk, it must have been a huge discount.
 
LAXintl
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RE: AV's New Fleet #2

Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:03 am

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 7):
the planes are just not suited for Colombian domestic routes

How come?

The A32X series are well used around the globe in all types of diverse markets, such as India, Mexico, Turkey, South Africa, to even little tiny Himalayan land locked Kingdom of Bhutan.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
777jaah
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RE: AV's New Fleet #2

Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:48 am

Quoting RICARIZA (Reply 1):
I know you trust your source, but I rather wait for the official statement before making any more comments!

This issue has brought up so many rumours, that maybe until official word comes out, I have to agree with you Ricardo.

Quoting RICARIZA (Reply 1):
although a little weird taking into account Avianca's tradition for Boeing equipment

I know, but as RCS763AV, I might start to feel that the woird MEGADISCOUNT was in the deal.

On a personal note, I always hoped for a ALL Boeing order. Hopefully my source is wrong (he knows about numbers, not planes to be honest), so I'll keep my fingers crossed and maybe we'll see those beautiful 737NGs in red and white.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 7):
the planes are just not suited for Colombian domestic routes. But if the airline wants to take the risk, it must have been a huge discount.

Why?? beacuse of the VX experience with them?? I tend to agree that 320s were a little bit oversized for short haul ops like domestic colombian routes (among the important ones the longest one BOG-CTG?? San Andres not included of course), maybe the A318 will suit this well enough and leave some 320s for ops like UIO, CCS, PTY, LIM, etc.

Cheers


JAAH
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viasa
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RE: AV's New Fleet #2

Tue Oct 31, 2006 4:38 am

N632CT and N190AN were retourned to the lessor. Sorry I dont remember the other two registration - but they will go back very soon.
 
A388
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RE: AV's New Fleet #2

Tue Oct 31, 2006 5:54 am

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 7):
the planes are just not suited for Colombian domestic routes.

I also don't understand this argument completely. Why is the A320 not suited for Colombian domestic. The A320 has proven itself and is equal to the 737 in both capacity and range and the A320 even has a wider fuselage giving you more cabin space.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 8):
The A32X series are well used around the globe in all types of diverse markets, such as India, Mexico, Turkey, South Africa, to even little tiny Himalayan land locked Kingdom of Bhutan.

 checkmark 

A388
 
NYC777
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RE: AV's New Fleet #2

Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:50 am

Ok when will AV make an official announcement?
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
Summa767
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RE: AV's New Fleet #2

Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:54 am

Quoting Viasa (Reply 10):
N632CT and N190AN were retourned to the lessor. Sorry I dont remember the other two registration - but they will go back very soon.

Thanks for this info. So I guess that after deciding to keep the F50s, AV decided to lose 4 MDs instead.. Oh well. I now wonder if the total number of F100s will stay at 10, or if any more maybe added..
 
jfk777
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RE: AV's New Fleet #2

Tue Oct 31, 2006 9:54 am

A320's for Avianca ? I have read on numerous ocasions, Domestic US airlines NW & US, having load restrictions on transcontinental flights with A320's. For 3 or 4 hour flight to Miami, no problem, better then the MD-83. For Bogota take-offs to EZE and GRU something has to give ? Could some one please evaluate the high altitude performance of teh A320.
 
777jaah
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RE: AV's New Fleet #2

Tue Oct 31, 2006 11:20 am

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 14):
For Bogota take-offs to EZE and GRU something has to give ?

If you think well enough in this issue, you'll see that AV deploys 757 and 767s on these routes, son definetively A320s will not do the job that way. Maybe 787s for these routes replacing 767s. Even the BOG-MIA will need a bigger ac, doesn't matter distance, just cargo and pax loads will require a bigger bird. Just my 2 cents.


JAAH
Next flights: AV BOG-ADZ-BOG, AV-UA BOG-IAD-ORD-IAD-BOG, BOG-FLL-BOG, LA BOG-MIA-BOG J
 
A388
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RE: AV's New Fleet #2

Tue Oct 31, 2006 5:49 pm

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 14):
For Bogota take-offs to EZE and GRU something has to give ?

I don't understand why this route is given as an example for the A320. Does AV currently use the MD83 on this route? No. AV uses the 757/767 on these routes, in other words they will eventually use the 787 on this route once this happens. So no need to say that the A320 will not perform well on these routes as AV simply won't use this aircraft to GRU/EZE anyway. The A320 in AV's case will most likely replace the MD83 routes, not the 757 or 767 routes. 777jaah is right in this case. As mentioned before the A320 is a perfectly capable aircraft in its class as it used around the world by numerous airlines just like the 737 is.

A388
 
Summa767
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RE: AV's New Fleet #2

Tue Oct 31, 2006 8:04 pm

Quoting A388 (Reply 16):
As mentioned before the A320 is a perfectly capable aircraft in its class as it used around the world by numerous airlines just like the 737 is.

I think that AV can do well with the A320 family. The performance issues mentioned before and that were suffered by Aces had to do with cooling time of brakes that imposed restrictions on turnarounds. They could not do the 25 minute that MD83s do. A320s on MIA would be fine, and since the F100s are there, domestic operations can be shuffled appropriately.
It may also be that Airbus offers a better product now. Materials improve all the time.
 
RCS763AV
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RE: AV's New Fleet #2

Tue Oct 31, 2006 10:57 pm

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 8):
The A32X series are well used around the globe in all types of diverse markets

One of those being Colombia, and the experience was not nice. They are too costly to operate as they need very large turnaround times (the luggage has to go into pallets and then loaded to the aircraft by machine as the cargo door is too high, the brakes need 40 minutes to cool down, etc.), while an MD-83 or a 737 can be turned around in a much shoter time. If the plane does a 30 minute flight BOG-PEI and stays in PEI for 45 minutes and then returns, is that efficient? No.

This has been discussed a hundred times by the Colombian users actually, maybe its just rumours but the 320s took big blame in the VX failure. (i don´t have anything against the A320, in fact in think it looks nicer than the 737)
 
A388
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RE: AV's New Fleet #2

Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:20 am

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 18):
One of those being Colombia, and the experience was not nice. They are too costly to operate as they need very large turnaround times (the luggage has to go into pallets and then loaded to the aircraft by machine as the cargo door is too high, the brakes need 40 minutes to cool down, etc.), while an MD-83 or a 737 can be turned around in a much shoter time. If the plane does a 30 minute flight BOG-PEI and stays in PEI for 45 minutes and then returns, is that efficient? No.

This has been discussed a hundred times by the Colombian users actually, maybe its just rumours but the 320s took big blame in the VX failure. (i don´t have anything against the A320, in fact in think it looks nicer than the 737)

Having palletised cargo holds makes the aircraft handling faster as it allows you to load all the luggage onto the aircraft much faster as they are loaded as ULD's so to speak instead of loading each luggage one by one. Of course you will need time to load the luggage onto the ULD's but this shouldn't be that much of a problem/time consuming. One advantage of the A320 is the ability to load the cargo and luggage on ULD's. It allows a better cargo throughput. Saying that the A320 needs very large turnaround times is also not entirely true. Look at all the airlines who operate the A320 very succesfully including low cost carriers who work with the lowest turnaround times. How come Colombian airlines have difficulty in turning an A320 around? What factors played a roll here, I am very interested to be able to better understand the situation.

As for the brake temperature needing more time to cool off, I don't have more insight in that so you might well be right on that. However, saying that the failure of an airline is mostly blamed on an aircraft I find that very hard to believe. I have never heard of an airline collapsing mainly because of the aircraft type used. That would be too far fetched.

A388
 
aviopic
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RE: AV's New Fleet #2

Wed Nov 01, 2006 4:01 am

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 13):
I now wonder if the total number of F100s will stay at 10, or if any more maybe added.

Synergy took another 6 but I don't know what their livery will be, Avianca, OceanAir or Wayra Peru.
The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
 
Summa767
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RE: AV's New Fleet #2

Wed Nov 01, 2006 4:36 am

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 20):
Synergy took another 6 but I don't know what their livery will be, Avianca, OceanAir or Wayra Peru.

6 on top of the original 29?
That is interesting news. It may fit with Mr Efromovich's announcement that 6 more F100s would join OceanAir. I understand that they have 11 at the moment. Avianca's 10 and Wayra's 5 make 32. So there should be another 3.
Wikipedia lists 13 F100s for Avianca rather than 10. Maybe that's where those 3 are to be found..
 
aviopic
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RE: AV's New Fleet #2

Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:39 am

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 21):
Wikipedia lists 13 F100s

Not exactly a reliable source  Smile

At this moment our own fleetlist mentions 10 for Avianca.
CN - REG
11449 HK4445
11457 HK4419
11458 HK4444
11464 HK4451
11465 HK4430
11469 HK4437
11479 HK4443
11482 HK4420
11506 HK4431
11514 HK4438

No news about additions for them.
The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
 
757MDE
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RE: AV's New Fleet #2

Wed Nov 01, 2006 7:51 am

Isn't there any temptative date for an official announcement?
I'd wish they went with the 737, but I guess the A320 is alright as well.
Quisiera volveraamartevolveraquerertevolveratenertecerrrrcaademígirl! Mis ojos lloran porrr ti...
 
Southamerica
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RE: AV's New Fleet #2

Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:55 am

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 18):
If the plane does a 30 minute flight BOG-PEI and stays in PEI for 45 minutes and then returns, is that efficient? No.

Chances are that this time the A320s won't be serving such extremely short routes, at least not while the F-100s are here. To be honest, I'd be shocked to see them go ahead with the same mistakes that led ACES to bankrupcy. I doubt it.

Anyway, the case with ACES was also supported by the fact that the leasing costs for all their fleet [not only the A320's] were very high. I don't think it's fair to completely rule out the A320's from Colombia simply because they didn't succeed with ACES.



SOUTHAMERICA
 
A388
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RE: AV's New Fleet #2

Wed Nov 01, 2006 10:29 am

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 24):
Anyway, the case with ACES was also supported by the fact that the leasing costs for all their fleet [not only the A320's] were very high. I don't think it's fair to completely rule out the A320's from Colombia simply because they didn't succeed with ACES.

 checkmark  A388
 
RCS763AV
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RE: AV's New Fleet #2

Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:15 pm

Quoting A388 (Reply 19):
However, saying that the failure of an airline is mostly blamed on an aircraft I find that very hard to believe

Well, the high leasing costs and the inefficient operation of the A320s were the trigger of VX´s downfall, remember that in a smalle scale, this small factors can play a big role, of course a company like AA wouldn´t care, but VX only had 8 A320s in the end.

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 24):
I don't think it's fair to completely rule out the A320's from Colombia simply because they didn't succeed with ACES.

Indeed, let´s hope it works out well, if they do order the 320s. But an experience is an experience and it may repeat itself....
 
777jaah
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RE: AV's New Fleet #2

Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:07 am

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 24):
Anyway, the case with ACES was also supported by the fact that the leasing costs for all their fleet [not only the A320's] were very high

The thing with those lease agreements (A320s) was that it was done in euros, and all no protection against it was taken by VX. In 2002, the euro skyrocketed, and the entire debt went with it to the clouds. That's really what took VX into bankrupcy, not the A320 themselves. You can go ahead and check the figures on the euro, you'll see why that debt became so "heavy" for VXs finances, and they didn't get rid of the Airbuses, thus, paying EXTREMELY high lease fares. About technical issues with the brakes and turnaround times, probably tthey were an issue, but trust me, the fiasco was more on the financial side that on the technical side.

Quoting 757MDE (Reply 23):
I'd wish they went with the 737, but I guess the A320 is alright as well.

Me too.


Cheers

JAAH
Next flights: AV BOG-ADZ-BOG, AV-UA BOG-IAD-ORD-IAD-BOG, BOG-FLL-BOG, LA BOG-MIA-BOG J
 
bongo
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RE: AV's New Fleet #2

Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:30 am

I still don´t think they´ll go with a mix of B and A... seems to be a better deal if they only go with B... Of course I´m not against A, but the best deal they can make is to deal with one....financial and commonality matters I guess.

BTW: forum mods, I don´t know why my original post was locked....can anyone tell me?

[Edited 2006-11-01 16:34:58]

[Edited 2006-11-01 17:01:07]
MDE: First airport in the Americas visited by the A380!
 
777jaah
Topic Author
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RE: AV's New Fleet #2

Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:40 am

Quoting Bongo (Reply 28):
forum mods, I don?t know why my original post was deleted

I think it was locked. Just for respect to you, when I opened this thread, I posted the link for yours.


JAAH
Next flights: AV BOG-ADZ-BOG, AV-UA BOG-IAD-ORD-IAD-BOG, BOG-FLL-BOG, LA BOG-MIA-BOG J
 
bongo
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RE: AV's New Fleet #2

Thu Nov 02, 2006 1:04 am

777jaah: yes, you are right, my question is just for the mods...they usually do things that we really don´t know why...so my question is for them: Why my post was locked?
Thanks 777jaah and let´s continue the AV topic here with this one you opened once mine was locked  Smile
Oh...and thanks for mention my topic since the begining.
MDE: First airport in the Americas visited by the A380!
 
RICARIZA
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RE: AV's New Fleet #2

Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:57 am

Quoting 777jaah (Reply 27):
The thing with those lease agreements (A320s) was that it was done in euros

You beat me to this one..  Wink Exactly, the currency of the agreement was the problem.
I miss ACES, I am proud of AVIANCA & I am loyal to AMERICAN
 
AMSSFO
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RE: AV's New Fleet #2

Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:08 am

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 21):
So there should be another 3.
Wikipedia lists 13 F100s for Avianca rather than 10. Maybe that's where those 3 are to be found..

3 were originally for VIP but they were not taken up. According to ATDB (http://www.aerotransport.org) they will indeed be delivered to AV:
11467 ex N1455K
11481 ex N1461C
11419 ex N1434A
all are currently at TUL for overhaul (at least as far as I know)
 
757MDE
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RE: AV's New Fleet #2

Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:41 am

Quoting Bongo (Reply 28):
I don?t know why my original post was locked....can anyone tell me?

I don't remember how old is your post but I think when a post reaches certain amount of time without being replied to it auto-locks itself. I may be wrong though.

Quoting AMSSFO (Reply 32):
3 were originally for VIP but they were not taken up. According to ATDB (http://www.aerotransport.org) they will indeed be delivered to AV

Maybe they're going to replace the MD-83s that are being returned to lessor.
Quisiera volveraamartevolveraquerertevolveratenertecerrrrcaademígirl! Mis ojos lloran porrr ti...
 
Southamerica
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RE: AV's New Fleet #2

Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:41 am

Quoting 777jaah (Reply 27):
The thing with those lease agreements (A320s) was that it was done in euros



Quoting RICARIZA (Reply 31):
Exactly, the currency of the agreement was the problem.

I hope you guys are aware that ACES was also paying for the ATR-42s almost double the monthly cost that Avianca was paying for their Fokker-50's. This seems even wilder when considering that the ATRs carried ten people less than the Fokkers.

Multiple causes drove ACES to financial failure, rather than just one isolated event.



SOUTHAMERICA
 
aviopic
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RE: AV's New Fleet #2

Thu Nov 02, 2006 7:01 am

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 34):
I hope you guys are aware that ACES was also paying for the ATR-42s almost double the monthly cost that Avianca was paying for their Fokker-50's. This seems even wilder when considering that the ATRs carried ten people less than the Fokkers.

Yeeh....... are we that cheap ?
I'll tell the boss to increase to price somewhat Big grin
The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
 
RICARIZA
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RE: AV's New Fleet #2

Thu Nov 02, 2006 7:17 am

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 34):
Multiple causes drove ACES to financial failure, rather than just one isolated event.

Without a doubt...

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 35):
Yeeh....... are we that cheap ?

hehe, I will call you "right and competitively priced" instead..  Wink
I miss ACES, I am proud of AVIANCA & I am loyal to AMERICAN
 
Avianca
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RE: AV's New Fleet #2

Thu Nov 02, 2006 10:31 pm

Quoting RICARIZA (Reply 31):
You beat me to this one.. Exactly, the currency of the agreement was the problem.



Quoting Aviopic (Reply 35):
Yeeh....... are we that cheap ?
I'll tell the boss to increase to price somewhat

now we now why original Fokker went bankrupt...  Big grin
Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
 
jfk777
Posts: 5840
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RE: AV's New Fleet #2

Thu Nov 02, 2006 11:07 pm

When is this BIG annoucement going to be made, A320 or 737NG, its become like a wait to see when Fidel Castro is dying, we know its going to happen but it could be 2009 when it does.
 
777jaah
Topic Author
Posts: 852
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RE: AV's New Fleet #2

Thu Nov 02, 2006 11:08 pm

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 34):
I hope you guys are aware that ACES was also paying for the ATR-42s almost double the monthly cost that Avianca was paying for their Fokker-50's.



Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 34):
Multiple causes drove ACES to financial failure, rather than just one isolated event.

I know the financial issues of VX from my job, sorry I can't disclose details for legal reasons. I'm sure VX went down for their poor financial planning and some management mistakes, not the Alianza Summa. Alianza Summa, in fact, was designed to save VX, they tried to link it to Avianca Inc. (The american subsidiary of AV) to place into Ch 11 protection, mainly beacuse Ley 550 (Colombian Ch11) doesn't cover debts outside Colombia, which placed a huge problem if they wanted to negotiate their lease agreements, which AV succesfully did through the NY court. When access to Ch 11 was denied by the jugde, he considered that Alianza Summa was a commercial venture, not a part of AV, there was no more reasons to keep VX alive, it didn't made any financial sense, so that's why it was shut down and AV emerged again.

Cheers

JAAH
Next flights: AV BOG-ADZ-BOG, AV-UA BOG-IAD-ORD-IAD-BOG, BOG-FLL-BOG, LA BOG-MIA-BOG J

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