vfw614
Posts: 3171
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:34 am

Another Ryanair Executive Joins US-Start Up Skybus

Mon Oct 30, 2006 6:38 pm

RYANAIR’S yield manager Jim McMahon has jumped ship to join forces with former colleague Charlie Clifton, an executive at Skybus Airlines, the low-cost start-up that expects to start flying next year, writes Joe Brennan....

full article: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2095-2426374,00.html



Despite all the doomsday claims over here, Skybus seem to be able to secure the services of top industry veterans and a lot of real money...
 
CRJ900
Posts: 1944
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:48 am

RE: Another Ryanair Executive Joins US-Start Up Skybus

Tue Oct 31, 2006 12:28 am

How successful would a Ryanair-concept be in the US? No seat recline, $2 for a cup of instant coffee plus everything else for purchase-only, 15kg/32lbs max baggage weight, no alternatives if your flight is cancelled etc etc...?
Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
 
User avatar
clickhappy
Posts: 9042
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 12:10 pm

RE: Another Ryanair Executive Joins US-Start Up Sk

Tue Oct 31, 2006 12:45 am

Starting up in 2007, which is 60 days away, yet have they hired anyone? Any planes sourced?

On the other hand we have Virgin America, been around for what, two years, lots of employees, a few planes, and still not flying.

How can carriers be ordering brand new aircraft and not flying them?
 
User avatar
clickhappy
Posts: 9042
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 12:10 pm

RE: Another Ryanair Executive Joins US-Start Up Skybus

Tue Oct 31, 2006 12:51 am

Maybe they are on the right path, they have a job fair scheduled in Atlanta in 2 weeks.

http://www.skybus.com/careers_careerFairs.aspx
 
dispatchguy
Posts: 606
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 6:08 am

RE: Another Ryanair Executive Joins US-Start Up Skybus

Tue Oct 31, 2006 12:59 am

The startup airline path in the US is tortuosly (sp?) long.

With the new ATOS standard, the path to get manuals alone approved is painful. Thats why consultants to participate in the certification process are extremely well paid.

They'll need a few pilots, probably already well experienced with the A319, and will call them the management pilots - Chief pilots, flight ops trainers, etc., before they start heavily hiring. What they do is to hire a skeleton crew and get the manuals started, and once the first draft of the manuals are blessed by the FAA, then they'll start really hiring to get the manuals completed, etc.

They look for people they call "Initial Cadre", and those folks will be the first pilots, chief flight attendants, lead MOC supervisors, dispatch trainers and supervisors, etc.

Getting in on a startup can mean really long painful workdays, but once the FAA hands you that certificate, it was so worth it.
Nobody screws you better than an airline job!
 
Kevin777
Posts: 951
Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2006 5:36 pm

RE: Another Ryanair Executive Joins US-Start Up Skybus

Tue Oct 31, 2006 1:06 am

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 1):
How successful would a Ryanair-concept be in the US? No seat recline, $2 for a cup of instant coffee plus everything else for purchase-only, 15kg/32lbs max baggage weight, no alternatives if your flight is cancelled etc etc...?

As a service concept I don't give the FR-model many chances in the US either - customers here are generally used to higher service levels, also on LCCs and on short-haul, and are willing to pay for it also.

I was also one of those dooming SkyBus in a recent thread, but it seems like they're damn serious here. I'll still see them before I believe them - but there is one market opportunity that I can see for SkyBus. Namely that of the FR-route model; serving small airports and subsidized by the local communities around them. Not just subsidized by tax payers' money, but also by local business etc., heavy sponsoring on their web-page etc.

SkyBus and the local authorities in Columbus are cooperating on this - also on the financing side - and if this can be a model for other US communities, I actually could see a Ryanair in the US. A Ryanair-model would not work in its purest form - IMO people would not be willing to pay the cost for infrequent services to smaller communities a la those served by Ryanair in Europe. However, if the model is subsidized by local communities, it could work.

Why would the local communities support it? Because of the huge economic externalities to society. Despite subsidies and "unfair" airport discounts, one has to give FR credit for giving life to some otherwise sleepy areas of Europe. From Denmark I can mention Esbjerg, a sleepy old fishing community with some industry on the West Coast of the country - FR started flying from STN, and visitor numbers have gone through the roof; hotels, museums, bars, restaurants etc. are really feeling an impact. At the end of the day it keeps jobs and people in the city.

Is it fair? I think it is, when a country has an objective of not having the whole population living in urban areas. But would it work in the U.S.? Doubt it. It is in its very nature anti-free market. Maybe in some N.E. states, maybe California. But not the rest.

Kevin777
"I was waiting for you at DFW, but you must have been in LUV" CPH-HAM-CPH CR9
 
User avatar
clickhappy
Posts: 9042
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 12:10 pm

RE: Another Ryanair Executive Joins US-Start Up Skybus

Tue Oct 31, 2006 1:34 am

So, the "Ryanair effect" brings tourists to areas that might not otherwise be seeing them?

Can a similar thing happen here in the states? Skybus picks a "sleepy" place, lets say Elko Nevada, and all of the sudden people flock there?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
 
redflyer
Posts: 3882
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Another Ryanair Executive Joins US-Start Up Skybus

Tue Oct 31, 2006 2:30 am

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 1):
How successful would a Ryanair-concept be in the US?

I think there's a chance that the Ryanair concept could be successful here in the U.S. I emphasize "could" because that would only happen if it were another time. Right now, there continues to be an over-capacity in seats, not to mention the fact that there is very stiff competition from the big low-fare carriers (F9, B6, WN, US). I just don't see them surviving very long, if they even get off the ground.
My other home is in the sky inside my Piper Cherokee 180.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Another Ryanair Executive Joins US-Start Up Skybus

Tue Oct 31, 2006 3:08 am

The problem is most (operative word) of FR's points "A to B" are quite short, where as points "A to B" in the United States could be north of 2100nm... spin 
"Up the Irons!"
 
vfw614
Posts: 3171
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:34 am

RE: Another Ryanair Executive Joins US-Start Up Skybus

Tue Oct 31, 2006 3:29 am

The reason for the short sectors is that Ryanair tries to have each aircraft operating eight sectors each day rather than just six. But recently Ryanair has moved away from that concept as there are only so many destinations that allow this kind of operation. It is not really a dogma, and depending on where Skybus will set up bases, there should be a decent mix of shorter and longer routes almost everywhere.

If Skybus is smart, they will be try not to become a network carrier but remain an operation focused on local bases which sustain themselves (and might only be linked with each other on a route-by-route-basis where it makes sense). The secret will be to keep the whole operation as simple as possible. No overnighting of aircraft at outstations, no complicated network, direct sales, ancillary revenues, generating additional traffic rather than competing with the incumbents, innovative advertising (just look what a marketing icon Ryanair's CEO has become), look cheap to make people believe you are indeed cheap etc. etc.

What is probably new by US standards is that Ryanair earns most of its revenue not through ticket sales, but through ancillary revenues. I would guess that Skybus will try to follow this path.
 
Kevin777
Posts: 951
Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2006 5:36 pm

RE: Another Ryanair Executive Joins US-Start Up Skybus

Tue Oct 31, 2006 3:45 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 6):
So, the "Ryanair effect" brings tourists to areas that might not otherwise be seeing them?

Oh yes it does indeed. And it has huge implications for the society. I was at a airline conference in Gothenburg last year, where I heard that when FR stopped flying to some community in Italy, property prices dropped 30 % (!!!). It's not just weekend tourists, also lighter business travel and people who buy property at the destinations. 10-15 years ago you most likely lived in the Malaga area or the Balearic Islands if you had leisure property in Spain - now people are buying property all over. OK, it's not all attributed to FR! But still, it has an impact indeed. Btw, "Ryanair Effect" might be a good word for this, although it has very little to do with the SWA effect!

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 6):
Can a similar thing happen here in the states? Skybus picks a "sleepy" place, lets say Elko Nevada, and all of the sudden people flock there?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

I doubt it too! The U.S. doesn't have quite the geography that supports this, let alone that the US is more free-market oriented. But I won't say never-ever.

I'd doom SkyBus anytime, but with all the financing, seemingly professional people etc. I'm beginning to doubt it - with all those apparently wise people backing it with their wallets there must be something to it somewhere.

Kevin777
"I was waiting for you at DFW, but you must have been in LUV" CPH-HAM-CPH CR9
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: Another Ryanair Executive Joins US-Start Up Skybus

Tue Oct 31, 2006 4:10 am

Myself I think this airline and Virgin are a day late and dime short, the window of opportunity is long shut.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
emseeeye
Posts: 351
Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2006 3:50 am

RE: Another Ryanair Executive Joins US-Start Up Skybus

Tue Oct 31, 2006 4:14 am

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 10):
I'd doom SkyBus anytime, but with all the financing, seemingly professional people etc. I'm beginning to doubt it - with all those apparently wise people backing it with their wallets there must be something to it somewhere.

The old saying "a fool and his money will soon depart" takes on a whole new meaning here. Who cares how many people contribute to this train wreck?
 
Midway2AirTran
Posts: 847
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 7:34 am

RE: Another Ryanair Executive Joins US-Start Up Skybus

Tue Oct 31, 2006 4:31 am

Just like I said before, I hope the decision makers in the US domestically are taking these guys seriously, unlike what I've seen on here(granted the armchair CEOs). They have something going here and have some potential to run all over the competition as RyanAir and EasyJet have in Europe if the US airlines don't adapt quickly.

If successful, hopefully SkyBus will help increase overall passenger traffic domestically, especially those who wouldn't fly anyway. $10 or even the Free fares (if available on Skybus) should be able to do that while not taking to many of the high price paying passengers away. Afterall, you will get exactly what you pay for.

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 7):
big low-fare carriers (F9, B6, WN, US).

Uh, US low-fare?
"Life is short, but your delay in ATL is not."
 
Kevin777
Posts: 951
Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2006 5:36 pm

RE: Another Ryanair Executive Joins US-Start Up Skybus

Tue Oct 31, 2006 4:34 am

Quoting EmSeeEye (Reply 12):
The old saying "a fool and his money will soon depart" takes on a whole new meaning here. Who cares how many people contribute to this train wreck?

eh.... I do!.. If you told me that two lottery millionaires and a an old rock star with a soft spot for airplanes were staring this airline, I'd be DOOMING them all the way to the Mojave desert on a.net!!! But it seems like these people are serious (scary!! yes!!) - but nonetheless it does signal that they must have some aces up their sleeves. Otherwise, why would they do it?

Kevin777
"I was waiting for you at DFW, but you must have been in LUV" CPH-HAM-CPH CR9
 
wjcandee
Posts: 5188
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

RE: Another Ryanair Executive Joins US-Start Up Skybus

Tue Oct 31, 2006 4:57 am

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 14):
they must have some aces up their sleeves. Otherwise, why would they do it?

For the same reason that any obviously-doomed business venture goes forward: Ego and a lack of reality. In very rare cases, one succeeds, and then, as here, everybody points to that lottery-winner-of-a-business as an example of why one should "dream big".

Independence Air was a similar ego-driven, half-baked train wreck that everyone could see happening miles away.

As I said in another thread, this carrier is burdened with a name that connotes discomfort and likely will deliver it. On a mere $100 million startup funding, it's toast before it gets 10 aircraft flying.
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18257
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Another Ryanair Executive Joins US-Start Up Skybus

Tue Oct 31, 2006 5:12 am

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 15):
For the same reason that any obviously-doomed business venture goes forward: Ego and a lack of reality.

Since at least two of their executives are from Ryanair, I'd suggest that (a) ego is not the issue and (b) there is no lack of reality.

That yield manager can clearly get blood from a stone.

They have also persuaded investors to come up with $100 million, the City of Columbus to part with $41 million, and convinced Airbus they have the backing to order 65 aircraft.

Example - if it is the Ryanair model and if one of their first routes were to Las Vegas, not to LAS but to one of the "near" Las Vegas airports, they would probably have a cost advantage over every other airline flying into that town.

Example: Allegiant is obviously doing well in Florida, but they don't bother themselves with MCO - instead they are "near" MCO. If they can make money, why not someone else?

Now - okay, Skybus may be doomed. The pure Ryanair model may not work here. But even if they are only around for a while, they can do an awful lot of damage to others.

I would take these people very, very seriously.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
vv701
Posts: 5780
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:54 am

RE: Another Ryanair Executive Joins US-Start Up Skybus

Tue Oct 31, 2006 5:23 am

The US domestic airline business is the classic hub and spoke operation. With the USA being geographically so much bigger than Europe, this makes sense. Climb aboard the American Eagle, Continental Connection, Delta Connection, Northwest Airlink or whatever, fly to their hub, transfer to their main line flight and, if necessary get back on the American Eagle or whatever commuter plane to finish your journey. All with the choice of several flights a day.

Along comes an equivalent of Ryanair, perhaps called SkyBus. It offers a service not three or four times a day but three or four times a week. It offers a single direct flight. It offers significantly lower prices and absolutely no frills.

Why would Americans stick with the old system? Because they liked spending the best part of a day instead of a couple of hours getting from A to B? Because they must travel on the day and at the time of day they and not the airline chooses? Because they are wealthy and don't mind paying two or three times the new airlines fares? Because they insist on having an airline seat that reclines, a window with a usable blind and a 'free' cup of coffee on each flight they take? Or, perhaps, all or, dare I say, even none of the above? Of course the FR model was never, ever going to work in Europe and some of us thought they were mad to order 100+ 738s.

At least if SkyBus do operate an FR type of model it will be more than interesting.
 
vfw614
Posts: 3171
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:34 am

RE: Another Ryanair Executive Joins US-Start Up Skybus

Tue Oct 31, 2006 5:23 am

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 15):
Independence Air was a similar ego-driven, half-baked train wreck that everyone could see happening miles away.

Totally different story.

I-Air = high-cost commuter airline turned into pseudo-lcc.
Skybus = start from scratch based on ULCC principles.
 
wjcandee
Posts: 5188
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

RE: Another Ryanair Executive Joins US-Start Up Skybus

Tue Oct 31, 2006 5:45 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 16):
if one of their first routes were to Las Vegas, not to LAS but to one of the "near" Las Vegas airports, they would probably have a cost advantage over every other airline flying into that town.

Respectfully, Mariner: Maybe a landing-fee and terminal rent cost saving. However... No significant fuel cost advantage over an LCC. No significant labor cost advantage over an LCC. Insurance cost per airframe-hour probably significantly higher than an established LCC like Airtran and certainly than a major like DL. No capital cost per-airframe-hour advantage over an established LCC, no matter how significantly they strip down the interior to save money and/or weight.

Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 18):
Totally different story.

Similarly-doomed. Not similarly-structured.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 16):
Since at least two of their executives are from Ryanair, I'd suggest that (a) ego is not the issue and (b) there is no lack of reality.

As to ego, I would say that *only* ego would cause a person to quit an established, successful carrier for the dream of owning one's own. As to lack of reality, how successful/realistic was the Heartland Airlines thingy that some of these guys used to be involved with?
 
vfw614
Posts: 3171
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:34 am

RE: Another Ryanair Executive Joins US-Start Up Sk

Tue Oct 31, 2006 5:52 am

Just picked up some info on another board that in addition to Ryanair's Head of Scheduling and Ryanair's former Director of Ground Operations and In-Flight, two top brass from Ryanair's Ops and one from Engineering will join Skybus in November and December.

Why would people in top positions at Ryanair leave their company to join such a laughable outfit as many here regard Skybus ?


The problem many of the fellow a.netters from the US seem to have is that they see Ryanair and thus Skybus as something like just another Southwest or Airtran. It is not. Arguments like "how will they save money compared to DL, WN etc." demonstrate that it is worth looking at how Ryanair saves money and in fact EARNS money.

It remains to be seen if it will work out in the end, but Skybus seems to be one serious start-up with a concept that has not been tried in the US so far.

[Edited 2006-10-30 22:00:33]
 
redflyer
Posts: 3882
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Another Ryanair Executive Joins US-Start Up Skybus

Tue Oct 31, 2006 5:52 am

Quoting VV701 (Reply 17):
Along comes an equivalent of Ryanair, perhaps called SkyBus. It offers a service not three or four times a day but three or four times a week. It offers a single direct flight. It offers significantly lower prices and absolutely no frills.

I don't get it, what's the advantage here? You realize B6, WN, US and F9 already do that, right? I would also say that service 3 - 4 times a week is a major disadvantage, not an advantage.

Unless Skybus' costs are significanly lower, I don't think they are going to have much of an advantage. The Ryan model only goes so far if you don't offer considerably better (lower) ticket prices for your customers.
My other home is in the sky inside my Piper Cherokee 180.
 
redflyer
Posts: 3882
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Another Ryanair Executive Joins US-Start Up Skybus

Tue Oct 31, 2006 5:57 am

Quoting Midway2airtran (Reply 13):
Uh, US low-fare?

Yep. That's their new marketing. Also, I once did a cost comparison between them and WN about a year ago. They beat WN on price hands down in the markets I was flying to. But I still flew WN  Wink
My other home is in the sky inside my Piper Cherokee 180.
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18257
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Another Ryanair Executive Joins US-Start Up Skybus

Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:06 am

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 19):
Maybe a landing-fee and terminal rent cost saving.

That's a start. And if they could persuade a "near" Vegas airport to give 'em some financial breaks, as Ryanair does at a lot of airports and as the City of Columbus has for Skybus, then that's a second step.

As to your other points - fuel is much the same for everyone, maybe they are canny and can hedge well, they have the money. Or, of course, maybe not. A lot of airlines lost money on hedging last quarter.

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 19):
No significant labor cost advantage over an LCC.

Bu they do. JetBlue has a cost advantage because of the relative "youth" of their staff. Skybus will all be new hires - they won't have a "mature" wages bill.

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 19):
Insurance cost per airframe-hour probably significantly higher than an established LCC like Airtran and certainly than a major like DL.

Um - I'd need to see figures. With the kind of fleet size we are talking about, they can probably get a good package. And in any case, if their costs are similar to Airtran, that's no bad thing.

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 19):
No capital cost per-airframe-hour advantage over an established LCC, no matter how significantly they strip down the interior to save money and/or weight.

They'll have an advantage over (again) JetBlue - they are supposedly putting as many seats in the A319 as JetBlue does in the A320. It may not be much - it may be a wash - but it is something.

Easyjet went for bulk capacity in the A319 and not a similar capacity in the A320.

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 19):
As to ego, I would say that *only* ego would cause a person to quit an established, successful carrier for the dream of owning one's own.

But the yield manager, which is the critical hire, doesn't "own his own". And clearly, he can get blood from a stone.

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 19):
As to lack of reality, how successful/realistic was the Heartland Airlines thingy that some of these guys used to be involved with?

Adversity is often a great test of mettle. if they have learned nothing from the Heartland experience, then yes, they are unrealistic. If they have learned, and have changed their philosophy, then hey, that's good.

Southwest has changed their strategy, and Wall Street hates it. Hates it. Will Southwest temper their new aggression?

Look at Frontier and their first failed LAX focus city experiment. But they learned from that mistake, and look how differently they are doing it this time.

As I say, you may be right, it may fail - the important thing is the damage they can do to others along the way.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
CYatUK
Posts: 388
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2006 2:21 am

RE: Another Ryanair Executive Joins US-Start Up Skybus

Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:16 am

Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 20):
Why would people in top positions at Ryanair leave their company to join such a laughable outfit as many here regard Skybus ?

I do not understand why people think this is laughable. No company (or should I say professional company) take decisions without consulting teams of experienced people who have possibly done the job before and have the "Know how".

In this case I would assume that Skybus have conducted market surveys and used other market data to find out that indeed there is a market in need for a new low cost carrier out there.

I can see that many people on this forum think that setting up this company is a bad idea with no future but it seems that professionals (ref: Ryanair) think otherwise.
CY@Uk
 
emseeeye
Posts: 351
Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2006 3:50 am

RE: Another Ryanair Executive Joins US-Start Up Skybus

Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:17 am

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 14):
eh.... I do!.. If you told me that two lottery millionaires and a an old rock star with a soft spot for airplanes were staring this airline, I'd be DOOMING them all the way to the Mojave desert on a.net!!! But it seems like these people are serious (scary!! yes!!) - but nonetheless it does signal that they must have some aces up their sleeves. Otherwise, why would they do it?

And just what "aces" do they have tucked? This sounds like a mix between Allegiant and Ryanair but... each of these already solid airlines has thier own niche. what niche is Skybus? Flying a leisure schedule from the midwest? Give me break. Can Skybus run enough frequencies to pay the bills and or break even?

"Ding-Ding" I hear a train coming...
 
vfw614
Posts: 3171
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:34 am

RE: Another Ryanair Executive Joins US-Start Up Sk

Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:48 am

Ryanair takes two different approaches when developing markets:

1. Open up unserved markets with nonstop flights, preferably by using airports not served by legacy/network carriers. All these routes you find across Europe were not served ten years ago and quite a few of the airports in Ryanair's network were totally unknown, overlooked airfields a couple of years ago. Through aggressive pricing, innovative marketing and start-up subsidies Ryanair is able to create demand that simply was not there before it arrived. By doing so, Ryanair avoids direct competition

2. Serve existing city pairs by using tertiary airports at one or both ends of the route. While at first glance it appears that Ryanair goes head-to-head with legacy carriers, all statistics show that the traffic volume of the legacy carriers on those markets does not suffer. Good examples are city pairs such as FRA - LON or DUS - LON. Ryanair is to some extent creating additional demand and to some extent syphoning off growth potential.

So the question quite obviously is not "who would dump his MileagePlus card in favor of Skybus' cattle class service" or "who would fly Skybus instead of Southwest". This is not how the Ryanair model works, and this what you guys need to understand.

The facts as they are stand:

1. Skybus has been able to raise lots of money.
2. Skybus has been able to secure a deal with Airbus.
3. Skybus has been able to recruit top brass from Ryanair.
4. Skybus has won public support in Ohio.

For all those supporters something very real is at stake - lots of investor money, sales potential, secure jobs, public funds etc. Still they have decided to give it a go. As they probably have not taken their decisions without seriously weighing options and alternatives, I give the concept more credit than the majority of a.net armchair CEOs. If it will work in the end, we shall see.

[Edited 2006-10-30 22:51:38]
 
redflyer
Posts: 3882
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Another Ryanair Executive Joins US-Start Up Skybus

Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:13 am

Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 26):

Hi Vfw614: you provide good analysis, but what I still don't understand is how has Skybus differentiated itself from other established low-fare carriers? Everyone seems to understand what it will take for them to keep their costs low and provide true LCC fares. But will those fares be lower than their competitor LCC's? We have no idea what kind of fares they are going to charge yet. There is some anecdotal evidence that as a start-up they will not have the costs associated with more mature carriers, so in that regard they may get off to a good start. But how long will they last when certain costs start to rise?
My other home is in the sky inside my Piper Cherokee 180.
 
galapagapop
Posts: 861
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2005 2:15 pm

RE: Another Ryanair Executive Joins US-Start Up Skybus

Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:36 am

Should be interesting as this should be a very serious operation if coming from tons of FR execs, but i still say it will be with challenge, not to mention CMH has CVG what 2 hours down the road? Hitting the heart of Ohio but its not as if CMH or Ohio as a whole is underserved with CO in CLE and DL in CVG. Room maybe but the routes will have to be tricky, but I can seen tons of SFB style airports in Florida which could prove to be a strong market for them.
 
vv701
Posts: 5780
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:54 am

RE: Another Ryanair Executive Joins US-Start Up Skybus

Tue Oct 31, 2006 8:15 am

Quoting Galapagapop (Reply 28):
Hitting the heart of Ohio but its not as if CMH or Ohio as a whole is underserved with CO in CLE and DL in CVG.

LON was not under served with LHR and LGW. Yet FR made STN one of its largest bases. But there is a difference and the is the relative sizes of the catchment areas. However FR is not even a UK airline so if the FR model is used, SkyBus may be an Ohio airline with its largest operational base somewhere else like in California, Florida, New York State or . . . One thing we can be sure of is that once their Airbus aircraft are all delivered they will not all be operating out of one base.
 
727200er
Posts: 301
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 5:18 pm

RE: Another Ryanair Executive Joins US-Start Up Skybus

Tue Oct 31, 2006 8:30 am

I still say the biggest sticking point will be a lack of comfort. I agree that some of the model stands a chance here. Startup capital isn't bad, it isn't great, but it isn't bad. Support from the startup cities will help, and they do seem to have proper people showing up. The problem here is that some people might be willing to try the service once, but when they stuff themselves into this tin can, they ain't gonna be happy. I would never be able to fly with this carrier, I can't even fly coach on anything more than two hours.

Realistically the people that have the most to lose to these guys aren't the legacy carriers or even the LCCs. These guys are gonna kill Greyhound...

IF they make it.
"they who dream by day are cognizant of many things which escape those who dream only at night" - Edgar Allen Poe
 
wjcandee
Posts: 5188
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 12:50 am

RE: Another Ryanair Executive Joins US-Start Up Skybus

Tue Oct 31, 2006 3:51 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 23):
Um - I'd need to see figures.

Well, I like to look at the figures provided to AMC (US Air Force, Air Mobility Command) under the old CAB rate-making model which the AMC uses to determine reimbursement rates for military flights. Insurance per hull is a very, very interesting figure, and it shows the kind of savings that scale and experience can provide on an item like insurance.

http://fs1.fbo.gov/EPSData/USAF/Syno...FA4428-06-R-0001/FY07FinalRate.pdf

It's not perfect, but look at say the 763 (page 40). DL pays 9 cents per revenue mile in insurance; North American pays 21 cents. On the DC10-30, Omni pays 30 cents per aircraft revenue mile, while NW pays 18 cents and World (with an in-house insurance company) pays 6 cents. On the 752, ATA pays 23 cents, North American pays 21 cents, Omni pays 45 cents and Ryan pays 33 cents. When your direct fixed costs range from 2 to 3 dollars, the swing in these expenses is not insignificant. The single most surprising expense is at Miami Air, where they pay 55 cents per revenue aircraft mile on insurance.

For what it's worth...
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13772
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Another Ryanair Executive Joins US-Start Up Skybus

Tue Oct 31, 2006 4:21 pm

Are all these RyanAir execs USA citizens? If not, how is SkyBus going to avoid the same problem VA is having, that of non-citizen control of the airline being against the law?

Quoting Mariner (Reply 23):
And if they could persuade a "near" Vegas airport to give 'em some financial breaks, as Ryanair does at a lot of airports and as the City of Columbus has for Skybus, then that's a second step.

How are the travelers going to get from that airport to the strip? Is SkyBus going to GroundBus them over there? Cab fare in Vegas is beyond expensive, and going a long distance both ways would entirely eat away at the savings in the ticket to the consumer.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18257
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Another Ryanair Executive Joins US-Start Up Skybus

Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:48 pm

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 31):
It's not perfect, but look at say the 763 (page 40). DL pays 9 cents per revenue mile in insurance;

I'm still not sure what your point is. Delta pays lower insurance? I would imagine. I would guess Southwest gets cheaper insurance, if only because of bulk, than, say, Frontier when they started up - they couldn't even get decent lease rates on aircraft.

It didn't stop 'em having very low costs overall. Then, or now.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 32):
How are the travelers going to get from that airport to the strip? Is SkyBus going to GroundBus them over there?

I have no idea. I have no idea if Skybus is even considering it, or if they are even considering flying to Vegas.

It was used as an example of a possible adaptation of the Ryanair model.

If pax can accept from Beauvais to Paris, or Hahn as Frankfurt, it isn't impossible to imagine an airline using another near Vegas airport - I guess there are buses.

VGT is close, and it seems to work for Scenic - is it long enough for the A319?

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
redflyer
Posts: 3882
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Another Ryanair Executive Joins US-Start Up Skybus

Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:18 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 33):
VGT is close, and it seems to work for Scenic - is it long enough for the A319?

At 5,000 feet for the longest runway, might be a little on the short side for unrestricted A319 ops.

http://www.airnav.com/airport/KVGT
My other home is in the sky inside my Piper Cherokee 180.
 
redflyer
Posts: 3882
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Another Ryanair Executive Joins US-Start Up Skybus

Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:31 pm

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 34):
At 5,000 feet for the longest runway, might be a little on the short side for unrestricted A319 ops.

http://www.airnav.com/airport/KVGT

Forgot that the runways are also only 75 feet wide...seems a little too narrow for mainline aircraft ops.
My other home is in the sky inside my Piper Cherokee 180.
 
philb
Posts: 2645
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 5:53 am

RE: Another Ryanair Executive Joins US-Start Up Skybus

Tue Oct 31, 2006 9:17 pm

One thing all you wiseacres in the US forget - and thus make the same mistake as many of the European doomsayers made about Ryanair - is that an LCC similar to Ryanair gains revenue in 4 ways which the legacy carriers everywhere, and psuedo LCCs in the States, don't.

They tap new destinations. Hahn-Kerry, for instance, daily. Where-where? Well Hahn is Ryanair's Frankfurt and Kerry is between Tralee and Killarney in the southwest of Ireland. Hahn is a hell of a haul from Frankfurt, Kerry - well Aer Lingus couldn't make a weekly Dusseldorf pay and the local bus didn't even stop at the airport for the 3 x daily Dublin flights.

Ryanair gets around 90% load factor on this service year round. The tourist market both ways has grown, business people use the flight and Ryanair now also serves Liverpool and increased its Stansted flights to Kerry to 2 x daily.
All their flights are doing so well there is now a regular bus service to the airport but, more importantly, Ryanair passenger numbers have made Kerry Airport, in danger of closing in 2000, viable.

Similar success is evident at other Ryanair destinations.

They tap new passengers. People who 10 years ago never considered flying due to cost or lack of service now fly because Ryanair has made their journies affordable and available. If Skybus works along Ryanair lines it won't be the legacy carriers who need to be worried it will be Greyhound and Continental Trailways and other bus lines.

They maximise add on bookings commissions from car hire, hotels and advertising on their website. Whilst the current fleet is short on logojets, they have used these succesfully in the past. They operate to derive revenue and profit from being a brand and offering various media on which businesses with a synergy can advertise, not just from being an airline.

They are well financed and buy at the right time, be it aircraft, fuel, handling contracts and maintenance. They are hard nosed and work on the basis that they are needed more by their suppliers than they need the supplier. Also, when the first handful of 737-800s are returned to the lessor over the coming months, they will OWN all of their very young fleet.

Skybus will benefit from the influx of Ryanair personnel with the skills learned in what had been a very tough, over-regulated, market base in a country with less than 5 million population, on the edge of Europe with, in 1996, an aviation industry that really only expected to serve two major markets - Dublin to London and the VFR traffic across the Atlantic.

As employees, not owners, there should be no problem about percentage ownership. As to them being employed in the US, as long as they can be proved to have experience which cannot be replicated by US citizens and is required by the company (not hard to prove as there isn't a true Ryanair model in the US) there won't be a problem about them working.

From my observations in nearly 25 years of visting and working the US there is a massive market for Skybus to tap. All it takes is some out of the box thinking and an approach to the right market sectors.
 
Kevin777
Posts: 951
Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2006 5:36 pm

RE: Another Ryanair Executive Joins US-Start Up Skybus

Tue Oct 31, 2006 10:01 pm

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 15):
For the same reason that any obviously-doomed business venture goes forward: Ego and a lack of reality. In very rare cases, one succeeds, and then, as here, everybody points to that lottery-winner-of-a-business as an example of why one should "dream big".



Quoting EmSeeEye (Reply 25):
And just what "aces" do they have tucked? This sounds like a mix between Allegiant and Ryanair but... each of these already solid airlines has thier own niche. what niche is Skybus? Flying a leisure schedule from the midwest? Give me break. Can Skybus run enough frequencies to pay the bills and or break even?

LOOK guys, I cannot say that I'm not surprised by a new player opting for 65 a/c. Standing alone, the idea seems like another airline business disaster waiting to happen. But for god's sake LOOK AT THE FACTS as pointed out by others in this thread:

Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 26):
The facts as they are stand:

1. Skybus has been able to raise lots of money.
2. Skybus has been able to secure a deal with Airbus.
3. Skybus has been able to recruit top brass from Ryanair.



Quoting Mariner (Reply 16):
They have also persuaded investors to come up with $100 million, the City of Columbus to part with $41 million, and convinced Airbus they have the backing to order 65 aircraft.

Think about the signalling value of this. If investors are doing all this, they must have their sound reasons - it's easy to sit here on a.net and call them all a bunch of hopeless business people who don't know what they're doing (and I won't say that that thought hasn't crossed my mind either!), but other people can read and write as well - and some a.netters seem to believe the opposite.

Now I'm curious as to WHAT their business plan is at SkyBus, but that there is one - and that it must have some validity - I don't doubt at all.

Kevin777
"I was waiting for you at DFW, but you must have been in LUV" CPH-HAM-CPH CR9
 
redflyer
Posts: 3882
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Another Ryanair Executive Joins US-Start Up Skybus

Tue Oct 31, 2006 11:37 pm

Quoting Philb (Reply 36):
One thing all you wiseacres in the US forget - and thus make the same mistake as many of the European doomsayers made about Ryanair

The difference is, Ryanair was on the leading edge of the LCC market when it was developing in Europe. Skybus is coming to the party a little late and long after the LCC market has matured.

Quoting Philb (Reply 36):
If Skybus works along Ryanair lines it won't be the legacy carriers who need to be worried it will be Greyhound and Continental Trailways and other bus lines.

First of all, Continental Trailways was acquired by Greyhound years ago. Furthermore, Greyhound carried all of 22 million passengers last year. No small change, but how many of those were people being transported in conjunction with services not involving air travel (e.g., Amtrak, tours, etc.)? And then how many were between two short-distance destinations that are simply too short to fly or are between a backwood origination and metro destination? Take away those and I don't think you're left with a lot of passengers. Don't forget: Greyhound is NOT competitve with airlines on longer journeys. If their price is lower, it's not by much.

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 37):
If investors are doing all this, they must have their sound reasons -

Investing is just another form of gambling. There are inherent risks involved with investing and the fact is a great many of them will not pan out. You're investing in an endeavor because of the risks -- the risks mean any pay-off would be multiples greater than a sound investment. If an investor did not want the risk, they would take the safe route in the form of CDs.

I find it interesting how in the last couple of threads about Skybus it seems to be all non-U.S. flags that apparently know the U.S. market the best.
My other home is in the sky inside my Piper Cherokee 180.
 
philb
Posts: 2645
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 5:53 am

RE: Another Ryanair Executive Joins US-Start Up Skybus

Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:30 am

RedFlyer,

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 38):
First of all, Continental Trailways was acquired by Greyhound years ago.

Just showing my age! I, of course, meant Trailways Transportation - Continental Trailways was bought from them by Greyhound in the late 1980s.

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 38):
The difference is, Ryanair was on the leading edge of the LCC market when it was developing in Europe. Skybus is coming to the party a little late and long after the LCC market has matured.

It has in Europe but NOTHING like Ryanair has yet been tried in breadth and depth in the US. Ryanair is often stated to have followed the Southwest model and, to an extent, this is true but it has its own, very different and unique approach and if the Ryanair ex staffers take and use O'Leary's approach there will be a revolutionary change in many people's travelling habits.

As far as distance is concerned, some of Ryanair's sector lengths in the UK (Blackpool - Stansted for instance) are very short and the journey can be made centre to centre (London- Blackpool) far quicker by rail and, with Virgin Rail's prices, sometimes cheaper yet Ryanair are thriving on the route, which runs twice a day in each direction and has never been sustained for more than a year or so by ANY airline in the last 60 years - from both London travellers and from people using what is in effect a Ryanair "hub" at Stansted, though their ticketing doesn't allow through booking to a third point.

In 1996 30 years of being in business, with an emphasis on marketing and some years as a senior executive and then CEO (with a deal to do with aviation) told me that Ryanair would be another short burst success. At the time I was also dealing with Stelios at easyJet and felt he had a difficult, but with brand new aircraft, more likely to be attractive to the passenger business model but nonetheless difficult to sustain..

2006 and I was WRONG about Ryanair, wrong about easyJet and I think that, all things being equal and given the input of Ryanair psyche, Skybus has more than a 50/50 chance of success.
 
vfw614
Posts: 3171
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:34 am

RE: Another Ryanair Executive Joins US-Start Up Sk

Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:36 am

Given the size of the U.S. market, there certainly is enough space left for innovative airline concepts. Most of you have a very traditional view on air transport and financing an airline while Skybus is thinking out of the box.

What large LCCs are there in the US ? There is non other than Southwest. All others are, if you look at the overall US market, more or less like the smaller LCCs here in Europe that serve a dedicated home market, but not the whole of Europe. In terms of the US market, I would not call Frontier, Allegiant, Jetblue, Airtran large carriers that serve the whole nation. They serve certain geographical markets und in these markets a certain clientele. All you have is Southwest, and you don't have a ULCC concept like Ryanair.

So you say wait a minute, we have five large network carriers over here ? Fine, so do we. We have three large carrier groups that serve all of Europe through their respective hub systems. It is airline A (Lufthansa/SAS/Austrian/Swiss), airline B (Air France/KLM/Alitalia), airline C (British Airways/Iberia/Finnair) plus a couple of smaller, non-affiliated legacy carriers. Then we have two large European LCCs (Ryanair, Easyjet) plus quite a few regional LCCs.

Remember, ULCC is all about creating new demand, not redistributing existing demand. You might not be inclined to use Skybus. That's fine. As a frequent airline traveller I am not a huge fan of Ryanair either and have only used them ten times or so in the past ten years. However, at the last count there have been 42m people over a 12 month period over here that feel differently and have used Ryanair. On an airline board like a.net you are very much more likely to meet people who are critical of ULCCs (ask Ryanair die-hard Pe@rson  Smile and supportive of legacy carriers. But, quite honestly, those ULCCs could not care less. A.net is not the target group of the folks that set up an ULCC.

As for this ground transportation issue - ask Ryanair. They fly from airports in the wastelands to airports at the end of the world. Thus they rely to a much greater extent on individual transport than airlines serving airports with railway stations and interconncetivity to public transport - something that in theory should suit the US market much better than the European market. People are used to drive in the US, gas is cheap, parking is very cheap at those tertiary airports. On top of that - if there is a daily Ryanair flight, you can be sure that sooner than later a local coach operator pops up and offers a coach service. We have all seen it over here..

[Edited 2006-10-31 17:44:13]
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13772
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Another Ryanair Executive Joins US-Start Up Skybus

Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:46 am

Quoting Philb (Reply 36):
They tap new destinations.

I'd like to see a list of commercial airports in the USA that can handle a A319 loaded with enough fuel to fly 1000 miles that doesn't have commercial service already. I'm sure the list is big, but I'm not sure those airports are close to anywhere people want to go.

Maybe SkyBus is going to connect Mexico and Florida vacation spots to remote U.S. airports?
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Kevin777
Posts: 951
Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2006 5:36 pm

RE: Another Ryanair Executive Joins US-Start Up Skybus

Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:15 am

Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 40):
In terms of the US market, I would not call Frontier, Allegiant, Jetblue, Airtran large carriers that serve the whole nation.

Neither would I call them LCCs - nothing wrong with that btw.

Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 40):
Remember, ULCC is all about creating new demand, not redistributing existing demand

True, but this also goes for LCCs in general - the "SWA-effect" is getting people onboard a plane that would otherwise drive or stay at home, even though WN is not an ULCC (and by European standards is more of a legacy carrier when it comes to service).

Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 40):
Thus they rely to a much greater extent on individual transport than airlines serving airports with railway stations and interconncetivity to public transport - something that in theory should suit the US market much better than the European market.

 checkmark  Tried to make the exact same argument in the previous thread on SkyBus a few days ago... but no one seemed to buy it!.. At least there's two of us now..  Smile

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 38):
Investing is just another form of gambling. There are inherent risks involved with investing and the fact is a great many of them will not pan out. You're investing in an endeavor because of the risks -- the risks mean any pay-off would be multiples greater than a sound investment. If an investor did not want the risk, they would take the safe route in the form of CDs.

As a finance major I'm well aware of the above, but what are you trying to say? Yes there's a risk associated with SkyBus, so there is with other airlines, but I don't really see the point..

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 38):
I find it interesting how in the last couple of threads about Skybus it seems to be all non-U.S. flags that apparently know the U.S. market the best.

So do I, but I can't see anything wrong with it - if it really is a true American FR copy starting up, Europe isn't the worst place to look for comments.

Kevin777
"I was waiting for you at DFW, but you must have been in LUV" CPH-HAM-CPH CR9
 
redflyer
Posts: 3882
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Another Ryanair Executive Joins US-Start Up Skybus

Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:30 am

Quoting Philb (Reply 39):
It has in Europe but NOTHING like Ryanair has yet been tried in breadth and depth in the US.

I must be missing something because this comment has been repeated often but I still do not understand what the Ryanair model has to do with a market that is saturated with LCCs. Will the Ryanair model a la Skybus bring appreciably lower fares? If yes, then I will agree: Skybus will stand a good chance to be successful (assuming their costs remain lower than their ticket prices). If not then I can't see how anyone will fly a plane with even smaller seat-pitch and absolutely no frills whatsoever (even less than WN) when for the same price they can get, at a minimum, more leg room and at least something to drink. Not to mention the access to larger networks the bigger LCCs have.

Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 40):
Given the size of the U.S. market, there certainly is enough space left for innovative airline concepts.

In general, I agree with that comment. But in a market that is saturated with LCCs, "innovation" can only mean price advantage. Unless, of course, "innovation" means business class service for the usual LCC fare. But with 150 people packed into an A319, I doubt that is the "innovation" behind Skybus.

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 42):
As a finance major I'm well aware of the above, but what are you trying to say?

What I was trying to say is that their business model is not fool-proof just becauase it has convinced some investors to finance the endeavor.

[edit: grammar]

[Edited 2006-10-31 18:35:05]
My other home is in the sky inside my Piper Cherokee 180.
 
Shenzhen
Posts: 1664
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2003 12:11 pm

RE: Another Ryanair Executive Joins US-Start Up Skybus

Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:38 am

Start the airline, pick the low hanging fruit with the first 10 or so airplanes, float the company, all become multi-millionaires, low fruit gone, larger airlines take notice, airline loses money, stock holder takes it in the shorts, top executives move on with their money to live happly ever after.

Cheers
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18257
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Another Ryanair Executive Joins US-Start Up Skybus

Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:57 am

Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 40):
I would not call Frontier, Allegiant, Jetblue, Airtran large carriers that serve the whole nation

No, perhaps not. But Frontier does serve three nations.  Smile

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
Kevin777
Posts: 951
Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2006 5:36 pm

RE: Another Ryanair Executive Joins US-Start Up Skybus

Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:06 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 43):
What I was trying to say is that their business model is not fool-proof just becauase it has convinced some investors to finance the endeavor.

No, absolutely true - but not knowing the business model (none of us do, except from the SkyBus exec lurking around in this thread... Smile ) I'm just going with what signals are being sent in the market. And hiring top staff, convincing investors and municipalities etc. is all other things equal a sign that they must have something up their sleeves somewhere. Now I don't know what - and I'm excited to see what it might be - but I think something must be there... (scary..!). Not withstanding the top-staff hiring, funding, Airbus deal etc. I'll still give SkyBus all the chances of a pig in Mekka.

Kevin777
"I was waiting for you at DFW, but you must have been in LUV" CPH-HAM-CPH CR9
 
philb
Posts: 2645
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 5:53 am

RE: Another Ryanair Executive Joins US-Start Up Skybus

Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:19 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 41):
I'd like to see a list of commercial airports in the USA that can handle a A319 loaded with enough fuel to fly 1000 miles that doesn't have commercial service already. I'm sure the list is big, but I'm not sure those airports are close to anywhere people want to go.

I'll bet you sectors of far less than 1,000 miles will be well within the Skybus target market.

No-one but people living in Charleroi wanted to fly to Charleroi until Ryanair went there. No-one flew to Kerry apart from locals. Shannon has staggered along on Aer Lingus transatlantic flights and charters - now look up Ryanair's flights - all doing very well. I've already quoted Blackpool which, apart from Stansted is served by Ryanair from Dublin and Girona. Blackpool has only ever managed to sustain very short term services to London Heathrow, the Isle of Man and the odd inclusive tour flight yet Ryanair is filling 189 seaters. I could name a good number of other backwoods European airports that have a similar tale to tell.

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 42):
Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 38):
I find it interesting how in the last couple of threads about Skybus it seems to be all non-U.S. flags that apparently know the U.S. market the best.

Having worked with airlines/airports in the US and having been retained by the FAA as on a consultancy basis and having had just about every airline in the US as a customer for my own company's conferences, backed by IATA and the ICAO I have a pretty good picture of how the US market stood in the past and still, though now retired, keep up with the industry by reading learned papers, attending the odd event and through myriad contacts still active at various levels of operations and management.

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 43):
I must be missing something because this comment has been repeated often but I still do not understand what the Ryanair model has to do with a market that is saturated with LCCs. Will the Ryanair model a la Skybus bring appreciably lower fares? If yes, then I will agree: Skybus will stand a good chance to be successful (assuming their costs remain lower than their ticket prices). If not then I can't see how anyone will fly a plane with even smaller seat-pitch and absolutely no frills whatsoever (even less than WN) when for the same price they can get, at a minimum, more leg room and at least something to drink. Not to mention the access to larger networks the bigger LCCs have.

Let's go back to Charleroi and Blackpool. NO-ONE flew anything scheduled toCharleroi.

Blackpool had a number of services over the last 50 odd years to HEATHROW. All failed. Neither Charleroi or Stansted have the connections available at Brussels National or Heathrow and both are annoyingly along way from the cities Ryanair serves through them compared to the major airports, yet the routes thrive.

I fly Ryanair a lot because of the convenience of their route structure from my home. I also have recently flown on Aer Lingus, FlyBe, easyJet and investigated Jet2 for a particular trip. All are slightly different, easyJet has been pretty much driven off Irish routes by Ryanair and bmi Baby is having a hard time at the hands of Ryanair

Quoting Shenzhen (Reply 44):
Start the airline, pick the low hanging fruit with the first 10 or so airplanes, float the company, all become multi-millionaires, low fruit gone, larger airlines take notice, airline loses money, stock holder takes it in the shorts, top executives move on with their money to live happly ever after.

That doesn't look like the planned ethos to me.

I remember people not giving Southwest a prayer. Texas was oil rich, people were well off and who, with a shiny DFW, would ever want to travel on a nothing airline through a run down Love Field?

I've been around aviation long enough to have learnt that writing something off because it doesn't fit an accepted norm is not always the wisest move.

[Edited 2006-10-31 19:24:55]
 
redflyer
Posts: 3882
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Another Ryanair Executive Joins US-Start Up Skybus

Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:32 am

Quoting Philb (Reply 47):
Having worked with airlines/airports in the US and having been retained by the FAA as on a consultancy basis and having had just about every airline in the US as a customer for my own company's conferences, backed by IATA and the ICAO I have a pretty good picture of how the US market stood in the past and still, though now retired, keep up with the industry by reading learned papers, attending the odd event and through myriad contacts still active at various levels of operations and management.

My sincere apologies. Obviously, you do know the topic!  Cool

Quoting Philb (Reply 47):
Let's go back to Charleroi and Blackpool. NO-ONE flew anything scheduled toCharleroi.

Blackpool had a number of services over the last 50 odd years to HEATHROW. All failed. Neither Charleroi or Stansted have the connections available at Brussels National or Heathrow and both are annoyingly along way from the cities Ryanair serves through them compared to the major airports, yet the routes thrive.

So you're saying their business model is based upon untapped markets. And I think I understood that from the very beginning. What I don't understand is how many of those markets remain in the U.S. that are not already picked clean by the other LCCs? Perhaps there's still plenty to be found, but will they support mainline aircraft service? I mean, I can see success if Skybus kicked off with RJs serving these back-wood locations. But they are planning on filling 150 pax planes by going to these back-wood locations.
My other home is in the sky inside my Piper Cherokee 180.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Another Ryanair Executive Joins US-Start Up Sk

Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:50 am

Quoting Shenzhen (Reply 44):
Start the airline, pick the low hanging fruit with the first 10 or so airplanes, float the company, all become multi-millionaires, low fruit gone, larger airlines take notice, airline loses money, stock holder takes it in the shorts, top executives move on with their money to live happly ever after.

That is what basically happens. Smile

...you forgot to add..."earnings restatements" after a few years... Wink

Cheers..
"Up the Irons!"