keesje
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Airbus Won't Confirm EK A346 Cancellations

Mon Oct 30, 2006 8:34 pm

Airbus won't confirm cancellations, unperturbed by outside auditors


PARIS Airbus said Monday that a visit by Emirates Airlines to check on A380 production plants is simply a follow-up on a promise of transparency to customers of the superjumbo made by former CEO Christian Streiff.

The European planemaker said it was not aware that Dubai's Emirates Airlines, the biggest customer of the A380, was canceling an order for 10 A340-600 jetliners, as reported Sunday on The Wall Street Journal Web site.

As to the visit to Toulouse by auditors to assess the planemaker's progress on building its A380 superjumbo — now two years behind schedule — Airbus was apparently unperturbed


http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/...ess/EU_FIN_COM_Airbus_Emirates.php

If Tim Clarke really has such bad feelings about Airbus as he continuously speaking about in the press, maybe EK should should just cancel their A380 to, or at least defer them for say 5-10 yrs. The contractual agreements have been broken, so no doubt there are options to bail out.



It is a free world, maybe some other carriers are willing to pick up the early delivery slots (Etihad, Qatar, QF, BA, CX, UA?) and they can make some profit to!

Boeing will more then likely be willing to offer 747-8i´s at a reasonable price, which are promised to become very good aircraft.

Maybe it the best thing for everybody that Tim just executes what he has been talking about a long time.

Perhaps the oil prices drop further & Emirates will have to make some changes anyway.



 cool 
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AirSpare
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RE: Airbus Won't Confirm EK A346 Cancellations

Mon Oct 30, 2006 8:45 pm

To bad B won't just tell Emirates "Cash, no discoints, their parked in Seattle, come and get them, goodbye. Some customers you don't want.

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
If Tim Clarke really has such bad feelings about Airbus as he continuously speaking about in the press, maybe EK should should just cancel their A380 to, or at least defer them for say 5-10 yrs. The contractual agreements have been broken, so no doubt there are options to bail out.

You don't really feel this way? EK crapped on B, they're doing the same to A, I'd like to see A and B tell them "Go buy some Tupolovs, adios".
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leelaw
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RE: Airbus Won't Confirm EK A346 Cancellations

Mon Oct 30, 2006 8:54 pm

Why would Airbus be hypersensitive to Mr. Clark's "trash talk" in the media, when Messrs Leahy and Forgeard introduced such techniques/practices to this industry, or at least raised it to an artform... Clark is merely following their shining example.  Yeah sure
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zvezda
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RE: Airbus Won't Confirm EK A346 Cancellations

Mon Oct 30, 2006 8:55 pm

It looks like Airbus have returned to the negotiations with a new offer.

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
If Tim Clarke really has such bad feelings about Airbus as he continuously speaking about in the press, maybe EK should should just cancel their A380 to, or at least defer them for say 5-10 yrs. The contractual agreements have been broken, so no doubt there are options to bail out.

Stranger things have happened, though I would be surprised if EK were to cancel all their WhaleJet orders. I expect them to take delivery of about half.
 
scouseflyer
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RE: Airbus Won't Confirm EK A346 Cancellations

Mon Oct 30, 2006 8:56 pm

The way that it seemed to be worded was the EK had sold their slots for the A346 to someone else (EY, QR, VS) so to Ek they have cancelled and to AB they haven't. We'll see in the fullness of time though!
 
zvezda
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RE: Airbus Won't Confirm EK A346 Cancellations

Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:07 pm

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 4):
The way that it seemed to be worded was the EK had sold their slots for the A346 to someone else

I missed that. To exactly which wording are you refering?
 
scouseflyer
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RE: Airbus Won't Confirm EK A346 Cancellations

Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:45 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 5):

I missed that. To exactly which wording are you refering?

Clark Says EK Has Cancelled A340 (by Lumberton Oct 27 2006 in Civil Aviation)

It states that Clark says they've cancelled but the planes will be taken up by another carrier - which implies that in effect they have sold their slots. Everyones happy - no cancellations on the AB balance sheet and EK can symbolically punish AB for the A380 delays.
 
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Revelation
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RE: Airbus Won't Confirm EK A346 Cancellations

Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:52 pm

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 6):
Everyones happy

It's all in your point of view. In my point of view, Airbus just found out that there was a market for 10 planes that they could have sold directly, and also got a public trashing which they really don't need at this point in time. There's naught they can do about it, the customer is always right, but I doubt they are happy about it.
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keesje
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RE: Airbus Won't Confirm EK A346 Cancellations

Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:59 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 7):
the customer is always right



Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
The European planemaker said it was not aware that Dubai's Emirates Airlines, the biggest customer of the A380, was canceling an order for 10 A340-600 jetliners,

Well read between the lines. I looks to me like Airbus is getting moderately fed up with Clark & perhaps they sees better opportunities for some slots.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
NAV20
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RE: Airbus Won't Confirm EK A346 Cancellations

Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:04 pm

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
Maybe it the best thing for everybody that Tim just executes what he has been talking about a long time.

Keesje, the hackneyed old phrase is, '"The customer is always right." Most people who have been involved in marketing would add, "Even if the stupid b*****d is talking out of his a**e......"

Unfortunately, given that EK's orders amount to over 30% of the entire A380 programme, Clark can say what he likes, and Airbus can only say, "Yes sir..."

My own feeling is that Tim Clark is under increasingly severe pressure from his bosses. The guys with those nasty curved scimitars tucked into their sashes. Not only did he bet the farm on the A380, he was a lot later than most people in seeing the potential of the 787.

He has somehow to 'win from here', or go under........
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
leelaw
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RE: Airbus Won't Confirm EK A346 Cancellations

Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:11 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 8):
I looks to me like Airbus is getting moderately fed up with Clark & perhaps they sees better opportunities for some slots.

Baloney. As long as there's cash in Al-Maktoum's coffers, the OEMs will find a way to discreetly kiss their asses, despite the "abuse." You're so predictable Keesje, QF firms up some options and you want to be the "junk yard dog" on Mr. Leahy's used car lot.  Smile
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zvezda
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RE: Airbus Won't Confirm EK A346 Cancellations

Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:38 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 9):
My own feeling is that Tim Clark is under increasingly severe pressure from his bosses. The guys with those nasty curved scimitars tucked into their sashes. Not only did he bet the farm on the A380, he was a lot later than most people in seeing the potential of the 787.

 checkmark  It certainly appears that Clark's public statements are meant to be heard by his bosses.

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 10):
You're so predictable Keesje, QF firms up some options and you want to be the "junk yard dog" on Mr. Leahy's used car lot.

That's the funniest thing I've read on A.net in months.  bigthumbsup 
 
Lumberton
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RE: Airbus Won't Confirm EK A346 Cancellations

Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:40 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 9):
He has somehow to 'win from here', or go under....

 checkmark 
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
DAYflyer
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RE: Airbus Won't Confirm EK A346 Cancellations

Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:41 pm

Well, EK said they had cancelled them, it was all over the news. So whats all the fuss about?
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keesje
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RE: Airbus Won't Confirm EK A346 Cancellations

Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:46 pm

Yeah, perhaps your are right & the QF order was just a unfortunate interruption of a clear trend..

http://english.people.com.cn/200610/30/eng20061030_316587.html
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mptpa
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RE: Airbus Won't Confirm EK A346 Cancellations

Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:57 pm

I very much doubt EK will cancel all A380 they have ordered. They will squeeze Airbus into getting more concessions hence better unit price. If Airbus can sell those slots, saving money on late delivery fines.....
 
NAV20
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RE: Airbus Won't Confirm EK A346 Cancellations

Mon Oct 30, 2006 11:00 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 14):
Yeah, perhaps your are right & the QF order was just a unfortunate interruption of a clear trend..

Geoff Dixon, on the face of it, is a much better operator than Clark. Yes, he's ordered a total of around 23 Airbuses - but he's balanced that with orders for 50 Boeings. Crucially, he acted in time to secure a VERY large number of early 787 slots. No-one can seriously question his business judgement, he looks to be 'fireproof.'

Compare that with Clark's position.........
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
keesje
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RE: Airbus Won't Confirm EK A346 Cancellations

Mon Oct 30, 2006 11:07 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 16):
Geoff Dixon, on the face of it, is a much better operator than Clark. Yes, he's ordered a total of around 23 Airbuses - but he's balanced that with orders for 50 Boeings. Crucially, he acted in time to secure a VERY large number of early 787 slots. No-one can seriously question his business judgement, he looks to be 'fireproof.'

Well he ordered some A330s earlier on too, but apart from that I'll agree in your preference for Dixon. However with his large commitment towards Boeing he might be as fireproof as the yet to fly 787..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus Won't Confirm EK A346 Cancellations

Mon Oct 30, 2006 11:17 pm

If EK has indeed found a new home for the A346's, they have to do so with Airbus' blessing if they don't want to be forced to take delivery in EK configuration and then sell them to another carrier and have that config ripped out and re-installed (unless the new folks plan to just keep the original config as RG and AI did with their UA 777s).

As to Mr. Clark's "tough talk" to both Airbus and Boeing, NAV20 may very well be spot-on. The A380 delays are putting a crimp in EK's immediate expansion plans yet their hemming-and-hawing on moving to the 787 or A350XWB is crimping their longer-term expansion plans by pushing EIS farther and farther back because they're order will be so large, neither manufacturer wants to commit to a design first just to lose the sale when the other modifies their's a bit more to better meet EK's needs.

Also, the A380's delays are pushing EIS closer and closer to the 747-8I, but I don't see Clark wanting to fly a dual-fleet. So he can now formally criticize the 747-8I stretch as being "too big", which deflects calls for him to order it in conjunction with - or in place of - the A380.

As noted, neither manufacturer can afford to tell EK to go jump into the Gulf. So they just have to "suck it up" and accept the sniping, knowing that the tens of billions in future orders will be pretty good salves for the verbal wounds inflicted upon them. Big grin
 
boeingfever777
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RE: Airbus Won't Confirm EK A346 Cancellations

Tue Oct 31, 2006 1:53 am

I doubt Clark will cancel... If he did Boeing would need to launch the 787-10 and give them a sweet deal on 748i, 777's, and 787-10's.

Also who really gives a rat's a$$ what Clark says? He was promised something that was not delivered on. He also hold Airbus's balls in his hands as to he has like some 36.9% of the A380 passenger orders and losing his orders would be devastating to the program. So he can run his mouth all he wants and Airbus is/will take it w/o saying anything.

Still don't see him doing anything but collecting penalty money from Airbus and keeping his auditors at the plants.

Only time will tell what he does and if he takes all (43).
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jacobin777
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RE: Airbus Won't Confirm EK A346 Cancellations

Tue Oct 31, 2006 1:57 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 16):

Geoff Dixon, on the face of it, is a much better operator than Clark. Yes, he's ordered a total of around 23 Airbuses - but he's balanced that with orders for 50 Boeings. Crucially, he acted in time to secure a VERY large number of early 787 slots. No-one can seriously question his business judgement, he looks to be 'fireproof.'

Actually, with EK ordering so many 777's...they should be ok..don't forget, neither the 787 nor the A350 (right now) will be able to put 10-abreast like EK does...

427 seat 77W...talk about cramming' them in..

Oddly enough, I've flown cattle class on EK's 777..and I would much rather have a 3-4-3 config with 34' seat pitch over a 3-3-3 with 31/32' seat pitch...


Cheers..

[Edited 2006-10-30 18:03:55]
"Up the Irons!"
 
keesje
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RE: Airbus Won't Confirm EK A346 Cancellations

Tue Oct 31, 2006 2:01 am

Do you think Airbus' reaction (starter) is very uhm .. understanding / downplaying?
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sabenapilot
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RE: Airbus Won't Confirm EK A346 Cancellations

Tue Oct 31, 2006 2:11 am

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
If Tim Clarke really has such bad feelings about Airbus as he continuously speaking about in the press, maybe EK should should just cancel their A380 to, or at least defer them for say 5-10 yrs. The contractual agreements have been broken, so no doubt there are options to bail out.

Keesje has discovered the story line.

EK is indisputably running around very frustrated these days, but sadly they can't do much, apart from upping their rhetoric, since they need ALL of the A380s on order, so canceling any of them is not an option.

Yet as they still want to show Airbus just how fed up they are, Mr Clark has been venting a stream of negative comments in the media for some weeks now, and he had some initial success with it, but he'd better stop doing so now, because he has reached a point where he's not hurting Airbus any longer, but rather making a fool of himself:

'we've cancel our A340-600s'... reality is they are just shifting the order to a Dubai based leasing firm as will soon become apparent...

'the A380 is seriously overweight' hoping to cast a shadow of doubt over the program which has caused much of the frustration with Airbus at Dubai... yet only the next day QF surprised all outsiders by announcing it has ordered 8 more A380s as are happy with the demonstrated range-payload performance of the plane...

Tim Clark, the real bigmouth of aviation?
 
leelaw
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RE: Airbus Won't Confirm EK A346 Cancellations

Tue Oct 31, 2006 2:28 am

From IHT article:

...As to the visit to Toulouse by auditors to assess the planemaker's progress on building its A380 superjumbo — now two years behind schedule — Airbus was apparently unperturbed.

It's "something agreed to at the time of Christian Streiff," said spokesman Justin Dubon. "He promised customers that they would be kept up to date ... and briefed on the progress of the A380."

The plan for updates was on a monthly basis, Dubon said, and "it's up to customers to come and see and investigate how they'd like to...."


I'm not sure what you find so earth shaking about Airbus's reaction to the "audit" aspect of the story which is old news anyway, FI first reported in detail about the "audit" two-weeks ago:

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...n+auditors+to+assess+new+A380.html
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NYC777
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RE: Airbus Won't Confirm EK A346 Cancellations

Tue Oct 31, 2006 2:36 am

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 22):
Tim Clark, the real bigmouth of aviation?

I wonder just what were you calling him when ordered 43 A380s?

Let's face it the A340 cancellation is a another black eye for Airbus that's why Airbus isn't going to say anything about EK's actions. They've had a lot of bad news this year and I guess the PR dempartment just doesn't want to exacerbate the situation.

EK it seems will be going with the 773ERs because they are in fact a better plane. EKs actions have demonstrated that, the order book of the 772LR/773ER vs the A345/A346 demonstrates that.
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redflyer
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RE: Airbus Won't Confirm EK A346 Cancellations

Tue Oct 31, 2006 2:45 am

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
Airbus won't confirm cancellations,

Has Airbus EVER confirmed any cancellations? (I'm not asking rhetorically; I would genuinely like to know.)
My other home is in the sky inside my Piper Cherokee 180.
 
Charger
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RE: Airbus Won't Confirm EK A346 Cancellations

Tue Oct 31, 2006 2:45 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 9):
Keesje, the hackneyed old phrase is, '"The customer is always right." Most people who have been involved in marketing would add, "Even if the stupid b*****d is talking out of his a**e......"

There comes a time even in business though when enough is enough and you have to tell the customer that's it.

Unfortunately, given that EK's orders amount to over 30% of the entire A380 programme, Clark can say what he likes, and Airbus can only say, "Yes sir..."

Unfortunately Clark does have Airbus by the balls, but I think the key is if both A and B stick together and tell Clark straight out, this is our product, these are the specs, and this is the price, non negotiable, what can Clark do?
The problem is neither A or B would do it.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 18):
As noted, neither manufacturer can afford to tell EK to go jump into the Gulf. So they just have to "suck it up" and accept the sniping, knowing that the tens of billions in future orders will be pretty good salves for the verbal wounds inflicted upon them.

Neither manufacturer can tell them to jump into the Gulf individually, but if both agreed and told them jointly, what can they do? They don't have a large choice when it comes to Airliners. As I stated before though neither A or B would do it.

Both A and B have put up with alot of crap from Clark and I don't see it ending any time soon.
 
leelaw
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RE: Airbus Won't Confirm EK A346 Cancellations

Tue Oct 31, 2006 2:55 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 24):
Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 22):
Tim Clark, the real bigmouth of aviation?

I wonder just what were you calling him when ordered 43 A380s?

When he was repeating the appropriate mantra from the Airbus Devotional, and breathlessly yearning for the A389 he was heralded as a prescient genius, whose "big mouth" was a non-issue. Now that his tone is no longer fawning, he's branded a "witch that needs to be burned," or at least ignored: from "pearls of wisdom" to a discredited "storyline."

One wonders whose rhetoric is the most ridiculous, Mr. Clark's or the Airbus apologists on A.net who are the only people truly annoyed by what he says?
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jacobin777
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RE: Airbus Won't Confirm EK A346 Cancellations

Tue Oct 31, 2006 3:00 am

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 22):

EK is indisputably running around very frustrated these days, but sadly they can't do much, apart from upping their rhetoric, since they need ALL of the A380s on order, so canceling any of them is not an option.

Why does EK need "ALL" of the A380's..any particular reason?
"Up the Irons!"
 
sabenapilot
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RE: Airbus Won't Confirm EK A346 Cancellations

Tue Oct 31, 2006 3:03 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 24):
Let's face it: the A340 cancellation is a another black eye for Airbus that's why Airbus isn't going to say anything about EK's actions.
Airbus needn't comment on virtual cancellations or negative comments on products which have been repeatedly praised by highly respected customers both in words AND deeds through add-on orders; by now everybody in the industry has understood Mr Clark's comments are no longer fact-driven, but rather anger-driven only.

BTW this is understandable, since if anybody is starting to show a black eye, it's the CEO of EK, as he's some serious explaining to do at home, don't you think?

EK's planned expansion for the coming years has been seriously hindered by the A380 delays and unlike QF or SQ which simply keep their 744s in service somewhat longer, EK can't come up with any serious contingency plan whatsoever and what's more, the airlines' long term expansion is at risk too due to him stalling on the 787-10 vs A350XWB.

Luckily there are still 777s to order, which can help EK out for now, but despite all the merits of this plane, ordering yesterday's plane for the future doesn't look like a fabulous idea to me. Starting to see why Mr Clark is talking up the 777 so much as of lately (much more so than for instance SQ)? He needs to make the only way out look better than it actually does...

[Edited 2006-10-30 19:04:57]
 
MEACEDAR
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RE: Airbus Won't Confirm EK A346 Cancellations

Tue Oct 31, 2006 3:04 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 28):
Why does EK need "ALL" of the A380's..any particular reason?

They get 2 billion dollars every day for the oil they pump. They have nothing better to do with the cash. Buying airplanes is like buying groceries at the market to them.
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: Airbus Won't Confirm EK A346 Cancellations

Tue Oct 31, 2006 3:23 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 3):
I expect them to take delivery of about half.

Based on...?

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 9):
Not only did he bet the farm on the A380, he was a lot later than most people in seeing the potential of the 787.

One of EK's main strategy is to build a strong hub at DXB - which requires both VLAs and B787/A350 sized aircraft. And don't forget the basic versions of the B787 have been considered too small by EK - so the lack of an early order is no proof for not seeing the potential.

Quoting MEACEDAR (Reply 30):
They get 2 billion dollars every day for the oil they pump. They have nothing better to do with the cash. Buying airplanes is like buying groceries at the market to them.

Simply ridiculous - it's time to get your facts straight about Dubai. Ever been there? Ever flown EK? Ever been in direct contact to locals?


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
Shenzhen
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RE: Airbus Won't Confirm EK A346 Cancellations

Tue Oct 31, 2006 3:26 am

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 29):
Luckily there are still 777s to order, which can help EK out for now, but despite all the merits of this plane, ordering yesterday's plane for the future doesn't look like a fabulous idea to me. Starting to see why Mr Clark is talking up the 777 so much as of lately (much more so than for instance SQ)? He needs to make the only way out look better than it actually does...

With the A340 orders, I wonder why Emirates didn't do something similar to both Qantas and SIA, meaning get some additional A330s on lease/purchase.

Maybe Emirates was a little quick in ordering all the airplanes so soon, whilst SIA and Qantas were a little smarter by taking options, then when converting, negotiating fantastic deals on A330s.

Seems Emirates are not in the best position to negotiate, meaning they have already commited to all those airplanes so early in the program, therefore are a bit more vocal in the media (especially when their competitors are making the headlines for additional orders and getting compensated with additional lift, in reward for option conversions).

Cheers
 
Rj111
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RE: Airbus Won't Confirm EK A346 Cancellations

Tue Oct 31, 2006 3:26 am

Quoting MEACEDAR (Reply 30):
They get 2 billion dollars every day for the oil they pump. They have nothing better to do with the cash. Buying airplanes is like buying groceries at the market to them.

That sounds more like SV, not EK.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Airbus Won't Confirm EK A346 Cancellations

Tue Oct 31, 2006 3:29 am

Quoting MEACEDAR (Reply 30):
They get 2 billion dollars every day for the oil they pump. They have nothing better to do with the cash. Buying airplanes is like buying groceries at the market to them.



Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 31):

Simply ridiculous - it's time to get your facts straight about Dubai. Ever been there? Ever flown EK? Ever been in direct contact to locals?

I agree with you on that one.. checkmark ...

Though I'm no longer sure if EK need all the A380's....actually, there is a possibility that EK might lease out a few of the Birds, they probably need the first 15-20 for operations however...
"Up the Irons!"
 
BoomBoom
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RE: Airbus Won't Confirm EK A346 Cancellations

Tue Oct 31, 2006 3:38 am

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 29):
ordering yesterday's plane for the future doesn't look like a fabulous idea to me.

It could be argued he did that when he ordered the A380.
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
UAL777UK
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RE: Airbus Won't Confirm EK A346 Cancellations

Tue Oct 31, 2006 3:46 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 3):
Stranger things have happened, though I would be surprised if EK were to cancel all their WhaleJet orders. I expect them to take delivery of about half.

 checkmark 

Why dont Airbus bite the bullet and announce the cancellation along with VS cancelling the 380, which IMHO they have done, not just deffered delivery!

 stirthepot 
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: Airbus Won't Confirm EK A346 Cancellations

Tue Oct 31, 2006 3:47 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 35):

It could be argued he did that when he ordered the A380.

Please elaborate...


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
TeamAmerica
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RE: Airbus Won't Confirm EK A346 Cancellations

Tue Oct 31, 2006 4:00 am

Quoting Mptpa (Reply 15):
If Airbus can sell those slots, saving money on late delivery fines

Hmm...as slots are opened don't they go to the next customer in line? All of the first 159 are delayed - I don't think the customers would appreciate Airbus letting someone jump into the queue.
Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
 
NYC777
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RE: Airbus Won't Confirm EK A346 Cancellations

Tue Oct 31, 2006 4:01 am

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 29):
Mr Clark's comments are no longer fact-driven, but rather anger-driven only.

Look no airline executive worth his salt is going to cancel a loarge multi-billion order for aircraft at a time when they need capacity like EK does just because he's pissed. That's logic talking there.

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 29):
BTW this is understandable, since if anybody is starting to show a black eye, it's the CEO of EK, as he's some serious explaining to do at home, don't you think?

Sure he does have some explaining to do about the 340 orders and the A380 orders. Fortunately for the A340 they were able to get some 777s on lease and then showed it's happiness with the 777 buy ordering 42 more of them. The A380 order was never hedged and now they're backpeddling trying to get more 777s and 747-8s. See a trend here. It seems to the casual observer that Airbus has let EK down on the A380 and the A340.

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 29):
him stalling on the 787-10 vs A350XWB

Clark like all other airlines are still waiting for more information on the A350 as well as for Airbus to launch it. The A350 isn't even officially available for sale, when it will enter service or even what material it will be made from. how could they order an unknown whereas the 787 is less than a year from first flight. I do think that EK should get offthe pot and order the 787 before porduction slots shift further to the right.

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 29):
yesterday's plane for the future doesn't look like a fabulous idea to me.

Uh huh, Boeing already has demonstrated it's ability to improve on the performance of it's products adn get out more savings out of the 777. That plane is going to be around a lot longer than you hope. And when it does need to be replaced I think an all composite Y3 will satisfy many of the world's airlines while at the same time Airbus will still be trying to develop an all composite aircraft.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus Won't Confirm EK A346 Cancellations

Tue Oct 31, 2006 4:02 am

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 22):
EK is indisputably running around very frustrated these days, but sadly they can't do much, apart from upping their rhetoric, since they need ALL of the A380s on order, so canceling any of them is not an option.

I am sure he wants all of them, but I'm not sure he needs all of them. There are other options, available in similar time frames (if not sooner) then his entire A388 order will be delivered.

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 29):
(S)ince if anybody is starting to show a black eye, it's the CEO of EK, as he's some serious explaining to do at home, don't you think?

Of course, his "explaining" is at least in large part due to putting all his VLA eggs in the A380's basket and then having the Easter Bunny run powerfully late...

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 29):
EK's planned expansion for the coming years has been seriously hindered by the A380 delays and unlike QF or SQ which simply keep their 744s in service somewhat longer, EK can't come up with any serious contingency plan whatsoever...

He could have taken the A346s, but he's willing to wait for more 773ERs. He also could conceivably take 744s (from storage/lease returns/etc.) as a bridge to wait for 748Is if the "negotiations" with Boeing result in an order.

Quote:
And what's more, the airlines' long term expansion is at risk too due to him stalling on the 787-10 vs A350XWB.

And that is in large part because Airbus is stalling on the A350XWB.

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 29):
Luckily there are still 777s to order, which can help EK out for now, but despite all the merits of this plane, ordering yesterday's plane for the future doesn't look like a fabulous idea to me.

Well he can't get the A350-1000 till the latter half of the 2010's assuming Airbus keeps to their schedule. He's "talking up" the 773ER because it's a better plane for him then the A346, even though the latter is available sooner and at presumably better pricing.

I agree Clark's constant bleating is getting tiring, but if Airbus had executed the A380 and A350 programs properly, he'd not need to bleat as much...
 
vfw614
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RE: Airbus Won't Confirm EK A346 Cancellations

Tue Oct 31, 2006 4:03 am

Why would a seasoned airline executive publicly state that the Airbus A340-600 his airline has ordered does not perform as expected and the Airbus A380-800 is terribly overweight etc. etc. ? With only one competing supplier, this must be some kind of invitation to sell Boeing 777-300s and Boeing 747-800s and de-facto monopolistic prices and, to quote a famous colleague of Clarke, "rape" Emirates... ?
 
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus Won't Confirm EK A346 Cancellations

Tue Oct 31, 2006 4:10 am

Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 42):
Why would a seasoned airline executive publicly state that the Airbus A340-600 his airline has ordered does not perform as expected and the Airbus A380-800 is terribly overweight etc. etc.? With only one competing supplier, this must be some kind of invitation to sell Boeing 777-300s and Boeing 747-800s and de-facto monopolistic prices and, to quote a famous colleague of Clarke, "rape" Emirates... ?

If Boeing wanted to bend EK over the table on the 773ER, EK would take the 10 A346s. And I expect Airbus has been willing to reduce the price of the A346 to get EK to take them.

While I have no inside information, I imagine the 773ER's economics for EK are superior enough to offset a presumably higher purchase price. But I doubt the 773ERs are costing tens - to say nothing of scores - of millions more per frame.

As to the 748I, Boeing is in the "cat bird's" seat in that they don't have tens of billions sunk into the program they need to recover. However, securing an EK order would be as big a coup for the 748I as securing that order was for the A388 - perhaps even bigger. Boeing needs that coup so I am sure they're willing to be very aggressive - but still prudent - on pricing.

However, EK may very well be asking for "the moon and the stars" and Boeing is not willing to cut that deep and incur a loss. So the two remain in "negotiations" and Clark whines that the 747-8 is now "too big" and doesn't fly "far enough", even though the A388 is not "too big" and the identical 8000nm range is "fine".  Silly
 
zvezda
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RE: Airbus Won't Confirm EK A346 Cancellations

Tue Oct 31, 2006 4:15 am

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 36):
Why dont Airbus bite the bullet and announce the cancellation along with VS cancelling the 380, which IMHO they have done, not just deffered delivery!

What good would that do?  boggled 

Who would benefit from trumpeting the VS cancellation other than a few Airbus bashers on A.net?

VS and Airbus are following the time-tested plan of a very long-term deferal, to be followed quietly by a conversion. This is standard practice. It's the best deal for both of them given the situation.
 
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flying_727
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RE: Airbus Won't Confirm EK A346 Cancellations

Tue Oct 31, 2006 4:17 am

Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 42):
Why would a seasoned airline executive publicly state that the Airbus A340-600 his airline has ordered does not perform as expected and the Airbus A380-800 is terribly overweight etc. etc. ?

Why not? If it's the truth, I'm glad he said it. We need more people to be forward and quit beating around the bush because that gets nothing accomplished.
On ATA, You're On Vacation
 
zvezda
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RE: Airbus Won't Confirm EK A346 Cancellations

Tue Oct 31, 2006 4:31 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 43):
I expect Airbus has been willing to reduce the price of the A346 to get EK to take them.

That would set a dangerous precedent. I suspect Airbus found different inducements to offer EK.
 
Poitin
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RE: Airbus Won't Confirm EK A346 Cancellations

Tue Oct 31, 2006 4:56 am

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 39):
Quoting Mptpa (Reply 15):
If Airbus can sell those slots, saving money on late delivery fines

Hmm...as slots are opened don't they go to the next customer in line? All of the first 159 are delayed - I don't think the customers would appreciate Airbus letting someone jump into the queue.

It all depends on the twenty or so contracts the various airlines signed. If "time is of the essence" then slots would have to be doled out to current contracts. If the contracts are date specific, then Airbus and do what they want -- assuming the airline cancelling doesn't care, which I am sure they do. So there will be lots and lots of talking.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
BoomBoom
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RE: Airbus Won't Confirm EK A346 Cancellations

Tue Oct 31, 2006 5:00 am

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 37):
Please elaborate...

The A380 is too much, too late. The 787 and A350 represent the future of air travel. The A380 is a dinosaur.

Are you familiar with Zvezda's Law: A smaller, lower CASM airliner with sufficient range is preferable to a larger airliner with higher CASM.
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: Airbus Won't Confirm EK A346 Cancellations

Tue Oct 31, 2006 5:06 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 47):
The A380 is too much, too late. The 787 and A350 represent the future of air travel.

Not entirely.

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 47):
The A380 is a dinosaur.

Some of the world's premium airlines seem to disagree.

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 47):
A smaller, lower CASM airliner with sufficient range is preferable to a larger airliner with higher CASM.

That's a simplistic, general view which doesn't represent the needs of certain carriers in certain markets.


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
zvezda
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RE: Airbus Won't Confirm EK A346 Cancellations

Tue Oct 31, 2006 5:15 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 47):
The A380 is too much, too late. The 787 and A350 represent the future of air travel.

 checkmark 

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 47):
The A380 is a dinosaur.

But it's a damn cool dinosaur and I'm still looking forward to flying on one, even if it will cost Airbus a fortune.

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 48):
That's a simplistic, general view which doesn't represent the needs of certain carriers in certain markets.

Hi JetMaster!  wave 

Yes, there are some niche markets which form exceptions to Zvezda's Law. However, they are not numerous enough to form the basis of a successful airliner development program. The commercial failure of the WhaleJet program was sealed when the B747-8I matched (or exceeded) its CASM.  tombstone