Airliners.net

Delta's flight 16 starts today (Atlanta-JFK-Mumbai). First time in a while that I can remember that DL will have a 777 at JFK on regular runs. Flight 16 gets into JFK at 1920L and departs at 2120L for the 14h 25min flight. DL flt 17 clocks in at just under 16 hours on the return to JFK....that has to be DL's current longest segment. Anyone from a.net going to be at JFK, will be cool to get some inagural pics.
Also anyone from DL, how many seats will they be blocking out of ATL for through passengers to Mumbai? I imagine they will not want to sell too many for just the ATL-JKF segment.

Quoting B777ER (Thread starter): First time in a while that I can remember that DL will have a 777 at JFK on regular runs

I'm not sure to understand your remark ? I think DL operated 777 regularly to CDG from JFK these last years ?

Quoting Goldorak (Reply 1): I'm not sure to understand your remark ? I think DL operated 777 regularly to CDG from JFK these last years ?

DL hasn't operated the 777 from JFK on scheduled flights in at least 2 years.

Yea, the only airports in the US that have seen the DL 777 in these last couple years have been MCO (which currently does not see it) and LAX (which currently has one flight a day from ATL).

OK guys ! sorry and thank you to have corrected my mistake   

This flight will have all sorts of logistical nightmares for the tech-staff, ground crews as well as the pilots since weight and cargo will be big issues with a 772ER. JFK-BOM is certainly a flight that DL could use a 772LR on. But it is important for DL to get a customer base on this flight since this half way around the world flight is going to be their future as well as the future of additional service they want to add in the next few years.

JFK-BOM 7800miles

The logistical nightmares aside, the flight planners have also the routing and the daily NOTAMs from the US military in ref. to Afganistan to contend with. Should be an interesting night for the first cockpit crew on this route. I wonder this being the first flight if DL will have the return crew already in place via the 763 service via CDG that ended yesterday?

This flight is severely weight restricted on the VABB-KJFK leg. I have heard that they will be literally be running on fumes! My lab has been asked to look into designing an optimum arrival procedure for them... lets see what happens!

9V-SPJ

Quoting 9V-SPJ (Reply 7): This flight is severely weight restricted on the VABB-KJFK leg.

The 777-200LR's would be really useful for them I guess on the sector. What are the arrival / departure times from VABB.

Quoting Cricket (Reply 8): -200LR's would be really useful for them I guess on the sector. What are the arrival / departure times from VABB.

Somewhere around 2200 arrival and a departure of around 0030 hrs---[not precise, but roughly these are the timings]

Karan

Quoting B777ER (Reply 3): Yea, the only airports in the US that have seen the DL 777 in these last couple years have been MCO (which currently does not see it) and LAX (which currently has one flight a day from ATL).

CVG has had the CDG flight on and off as a 777 for the last several years. It appears that yesterday was the last flight with it, and its now a 767. Can anybody guess where the plane to operate the Mumbai flight came from?

I ask this because the flight from CDG-CVG operates today as a 777 arriving at 2:55 pm ET, will Delta reposition the plane to JFK, or ATL to operate the India flight or will a seperate craft do that?

On a side note.. CVG also loses the AMS, and FCO non-stops. Any idea where these 767s position out to? Do they appear elsewhere in the schedule?

[Edited 2006-11-01 19:54:47]

What does VABB mean?

Quoting HanginOut (Reply 11): What does VABB mean?

Its the local airport code for Mumbai, the airport name is listed as CHHATRAPATI SHIVAJI INTL and the IATA code is BOM

I'm using Mumbai and Bombay interchangably.. I believe that Mumbai is the proper name.

Here's the link to DL's press release regarding the new service.

http://news.delta.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=10441

Quoting Jbmitt (Reply 12): Its the local airport code for Mumbai, the airport name is listed as CHHATRAPATI SHIVAJI INTL and the IATA code is BOM I'm using Mumbai and Bombay interchangably.. I believe that Mumbai is the proper name.

Thanks for the info, much appreciated.

Also, you are correct. The official name for the city is Mumbai, but almost everyone I know refers to it as Bombay.

From what I heard over at flyertalk the loads were extremely good for the first month. I am glad about this service since I go to BOM at least twice a year and this will definetly save me time, hassle of changing planes and the probability of losing my bags at CDG  The real fun will be when DL gets the 777LR's with the flat-beds can't wait for that.(Hearing about the weight restrictions with the ER, I'm assuming they will use the LR for this route) I will try(as always fail) to do a trip report when I take the flight to BOM soon.

Quoting HanginOut (Reply 14): Also, you are correct. The official name for the city is Mumbai, but almost everyone I know refers to it as Bombay.

The name, official or otherwise, is Mumbai.....those who are reluctant to change continue to call it Bombay...  

Quoting Jbmitt (Reply 10): Can anybody guess where the plane to operate the Mumbai flight came from?

actually the equipment originates in Atlanta and makes a stop at JFK before continuing on to BOM

the ship operating the flight is 7007 or N866DA

If anybody is interested, here is the flight track for DL 16:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL16

Quoting 9V-SPJ (Reply 7): This flight is severely weight restricted on the VABB-KJFK leg.

what do you consider severely weight restricted? my sources tell me DL is reducing the capacity by less than 20 seats and only for the first couple months at most until they are familiar w/ the capabilities of the 777ER and how ATC will handle them. Sounds like prudence rather than an incapable aircraft.

DL has recently retimed the eastbound leg to just under 16 hrs which is similar to CO's EWRHKG flight.

Also, airlines don't block a certain number of seats for use from one gateway or the other. Airlines like DL use sophisticated revenue management systems that take the highest valued passenger for DL's network regardless of the origin. The most valued passenger may connect in ATL or may be a local passenger in NYC and the optimum mix for the JFKBOM flight will continue to change as bookings on other flights change.

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Reply 17): the ship operating the flight is 7007 or N866DA

Yep - it just came in from ATL to Gate 6 here at Terminal 3. I'm on the flight to BOM tonight (thank goodness in Business) - will try to write a Trip Report at some point. Flight leaves JFK tonight at 2120 and arrives BOM 2210 tomorrow evening local.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 19): what do you consider severely weight restricted? my sources tell me DL is reducing the capacity by less than 20 seats and only for the first couple months at most until they are familiar w/ the capabilities of the 777ER and how ATC will handle them. Sounds like prudence rather than an incapable aircraft.

The cargo load must be non existant, though. Maybe someone familiar with technical operations at Delta would be able to comment, but my guess is that there will be no revenue cargo on the trip - which is why these long-hauls really have to be able to generate an airfare premium. If they ran this trip as a one stop via CDG, they would have a much greater economic pad via cargo revenue. This is why the LR will be so important - as you have a whole lot more payload to play with.

And no one says the airplane is incapable. It is simply at the very far edge of its own range and payload design.

Does anyone know what kind of weight restrictions CO has on its EWR-HKG route (if any)? Seeing that these are similar-legnth flights, it'd be interesting to see how they compare.

obviously DL believes that they will get better revenue than when they operated it one-stop. given that business class is full days in advance, they are obviously making money up there if they are doing any kind of revenue control at all.

and just because cargo won't be carried westbound doesn't mean it can't be carried eastbound. The eastbound flight is shorter than other DL 777 flights which are known to carry significant amounts of cargo.

When you are the only airline providing nonstop service, you will get premium revenues for both passengers and cargo. If your capacity is limited, you force the prices up to compensate for the reduced capacity. remember that we are about ready to enter the peak winter season for VFR travel to/from India.

and while the 777LR may make sense in time, it's still possible that DL will choose to operate an LR on ATLBOM nonstop since almost all of the other proposed routes the LR would be used on are to/from ATL. DL could easily make its JFKBOM route a passenger route while ATL exists for the cargo business and the abundance of connections that can be made in ATL. Even if other airlines add new nonstop service to BOM, no one is talking about anything from an interior gateway - and it might not even be possible to do so w/o an LR. Therefore, if DL started ATLBOM service to supplement JFKBOM they would undoubtedly pretty well wrap up the US-BOM market.

I'm wondering, if they do good on this route, will they try to fly to Delhi? Currently, Delta doesn't fly to Delhi, only AF does. DEL is also a very good market from JFK; a reason why AI will be starting non-stop service on one of their new 777s.

anyone know why they can't fly to DEL? Similarly, NW flies to BOM; however KL flies to DEL. I don't understand this...

Quoting Buck3y3nut (Reply 24): I'm wondering, if they do good on this route, will they try to fly to Delhi? Currently, Delta doesn't fly to Delhi, only AF does. DEL is also a very good market from JFK; a reason why AI will be starting non-stop service on one of their new 777s.

I could see them starting service to DEL in the future, once they got more 777's. They could have started it now, but they'd be competing with AA and CO. Obviously, having the only nonstop from the US to BOM is a key advantage for Delta.

Quoting Panamair (Reply 20): Yep - it just came in from ATL to Gate 6 here at Terminal 3. I'm on the flight to BOM tonight (thank goodness in Business) - will try to write a Trip Report at some point. Flight leaves JFK tonight at 2120 and arrives BOM 2210 tomorrow evening local.

I got off the ATL-JFK leg. It seems that alot of buisness seats were blocked.

Quoting RyanAFAMSP (Reply 21): The cargo load must be non existant, though. Maybe someone familiar with technical operations at Delta would be able to comment, but my guess is that there will be no revenue cargo on the trip

Two pallet stacks rode. It looks like they are planning to send a lot of cargo back from India.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 23): The eastbound flight is shorter than other DL 777 flights which are known to carry significant amounts of cargo.

What other DL 777 sectors block in the 14 hour neighborhood?


As far as I understand even at the 656,000 pound MGTOW the -200ER is pretty stretched at 14 hours with full pax and bags. I think overall the analysis is correct that the premium is there for the passenget non-stop, especially with the gangbusters growth of the India-US business market. All I am saying is that the downside of a -200ER is that you have to, for the most part, cut yourself off from the lucrative international cargo market.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 19): Also, airlines don't block a certain number of seats for use from one gateway or the other. Airlines like DL use sophisticated revenue management systems that take the highest valued passenger for DL's network regardless of the origin. The most valued passenger may connect in ATL or may be a local passenger in NYC and the optimum mix for the JFKBOM flight will continue to change as bookings on other flights change

As you said, the system will show availability only for the "best" passengers taking into account many factors but mainly the fare they pay. However, in general the most valuable passenger is the local one

Quoting Panamair (Reply 20): Yep - it just came in from ATL to Gate 6 here at Terminal 3. I'm on the flight to BOM tonight (thank goodness in Business) - will try to write a Trip Report at some point. Flight leaves JFK tonight at 2120 and arrives BOM 2210 tomorrow evening local.

What VIP's were on the flight?

Did flight 17 land in JFK already? I don't see it on flightview or flightstats.

Quoting Mk777 (Reply 30): Did flight 17 land in JFK already? I don't see it on flightview or flightstats.

Flight has not even departed BOM yet, though it should within the next half hour.

DL17 has left and shows an ETA of 0603 on Nov3.

9V-SPJ

my sources tell me that DL did in fact carry revenue cargo eastbound from JFK last night.

Quoting RyanAFAMSP (Reply 27): What other DL 777 sectors block in the 14 hour neighborhood?

all of DL's new 777 routes are longer than their existing ATLNRT and ATLTLV routes. DXBATL is only about 1/2 shorter than BOMJFK and DXB in the summer stays hotter much later into the evening (and the DXB flight is scheduled to leave earlier than BOM based on local time at each city).

CO and AA both operate nearly 16 hr flights on a 777ER and CO uses the same engine as DL.

CO operates EWRHKG and EWRDEL and AA operates ORDDEL and ORDPVG in the near 16 hr neighborhood

Alot of the limits have to do with the temperature and runway length. BOM is a warm city and only has an 11,500 ft runway. ICN is 12K but is a cooler climate while JFK and DXB both have 14K ft runways. Part of this is mitigated since most of the new flights leave at night. Only ICNATL will be an afternoon dept.

DL has increased the MTOW to 656K and the thrust on its RRs to 95K so they are getting as much out of the aircraft as possible. They are also supposedly removing a galley unit and some other cabin stuff like hard dividers to reduce weight.

Any new service always has a few wrinkles but DL will quickly learn to make ultralonghaul 777 flights work - they have no choice now that they have committed to all of these routes. But as several people have suggested, the LRs can't come soon enough.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 33): CO and AA both operate nearly 16 hr flights on a 777ER and CO uses the same engine as DL.

I think you meant to say that AA operates the same engine as DL on its 777's.  

yes, thank you. long day.

although in a year it will be true that CO and DL and AA and DL will both operate the same types of engines on their 777s.... although DL' GEs will be rate for a tad more thrust.   can't wait to see 'em.

OK, too tired to post a detailed report but here are some key highlights from the inaugural DL 16 on Nov 1:

Pax. load last night: 50J 177Y (capacity is 50J 218Y)
A/c was ship 7007 or N866DA
Scheduled departure time JFK 9:20pm
Left gate 9:30pm
Wheels-up 10:02pm
Scheduled arrival BOM 10:10pm
Touchdown at 10:14pm
Gate arrival at 10:24pm
Scheduled flight time was 14:20; Planned flight time was 13:50; actual was 13:42

Takeoff weight for DL16 last night was 652,452 llbs; have eliminated duty-free carts and some mid-galley carts

4 pilots on board - 2 captains and 2 First officers
13 FAs on board - usual complement on the 777 is 11; however last night had one management FA as well as an additional FA (they will go out with 12 for the month of November); 4 Hindii speakers per flight.

Here's the rest of my more detailed trip report on FlyerTalk.com:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=619767&page=3

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 19): Also, airlines don't block a certain number of seats for use from one gateway or the other. Airlines like DL use sophisticated revenue management systems that take the highest valued passenger for DL's network regardless of the origin. The most valued passenger may connect in ATL or may be a local passenger in NYC and the optimum mix for the JFKBOM flight will continue to change as bookings on other flights change

Very true, but still, does anyone have a guess on the approximate split? It looks a bit like the ATL-JFK leg is more of a positioning flight with some revenue, and AFAIK the South doesn't have nearly as many Indian immigrants as the N.E. U.S. I reckon something in the areas of 15-20 % going ATL-BOM and 80-85 % JFK-BOM.. Any other guesses??

Quoting Buck3y3nut (Reply 24): I'm wondering, if they do good on this route, will they try to fly to Delhi? Currently, Delta doesn't fly to Delhi, only AF does. DEL is also a very good market from JFK; a reason why AI will be starting non-stop service on one of their new 777s. anyone know why they can't fly to DEL? Similarly, NW flies to BOM; however KL flies to DEL. I don't understand this...

It might have something to do with bilateral issues, but I don't think so. As previously pointed out, DL will have the only ns to BOM. But it ain't gonna be no picnic for DL making money on this route - surprised that this hasn't really been brought up in this thread yet. Competition on Europe-BOM is FIERCE, and especially business fares are hurt. US-Europe-BOM fares are driven down in the fall. Add to this the payload restrictions on the DL 777 and they're in for a tough one. Okay, they got the advantage of the ns - from JFK only though - but apart from this they're in for a very tough one against European 6th freedom IMO. But very good luck to them!   Flying home from BOM in 6 weeks, hope to get a look at the 777 beauty!

Kevin777

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 35): although in a year it will be true that CO and DL and AA and DL will both operate the same types of engines on their 777s.... although DL' GEs will be rate for a tad more thrust. can't wait to see 'em.

I can't wait to see them either. Those are going to be some sweet birds!!!

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 37): It might have something to do with bilateral issues,

India and the USA have an open skies policy no question of bilatereal issues in this case.

Karan

Looks like DL flight 16 was late by about 2 hrs arriving into BOM on the 2nd day. does anyone know the reason for this ? BOM -JFK DL 17 hence left about 2 hrs late from BOM as a result.

AI.

Quoting AI (Reply 40): Looks like DL flight 16 was late by about 2 hrs arriving into BOM on the 2nd day. does anyone know the reason for this ? BOM -JFK DL 17 hence left about 2 hrs late from BOM as a result. AI.

Taxi time at JFK.

What was the pax load on DL 17 the first day from BOM-JFK??

Quoting Mk777 (Reply 42): What was the pax load on DL 17 the first day from BOM-JFK??

Not sure, but she's going out tonight full in J!

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 41): Quoting AI (Reply 40): Looks like DL flight 16 was late by about 2 hrs arriving into BOM on the 2nd day. does anyone know the reason for this ? BOM -JFK DL 17 hence left about 2 hrs late from BOM as a result. AI. Taxi time at JFK.

The Nov 2 DL 16 was late arriving into JFK from ATL thus messing up the rest of the schedule. The Nov 3 DL 16 had a fuel leak at JFK and so was delayed, thus screwing up the DL 17 return on Nov 5 as well. Pity as both those flights (as well as their returns) were pretty much close to full or were indeed full.

As for scheduling, whoever did the scheduling for the DL 17 return should have his/her head examined. DL 17 arrives JFK at 0600 and leaves again for ATL at 0740? 1 hour 40 minutes to prep the a/c and handle the transit pax (thru immigration and baggage recheck)? No wonder JFK-ATL on-time stats will be messed up and start watching for this flight to show up on the DOT's monthly 'always late' list....

Every flight so far on the JFK-BOM leg has been running late.

Quoting B777ER (Reply 45): Every flight so far on the JFK-BOM leg has been running late.

lets hope the punctuality improves.
it must be frustating to travel for 14-15 hrs nonstop & be delayd as well by about 2-3 hrs.
i am not sure if i could sit on a flight this long without showing signs of irritation. my longest flight till now has been BOM-MAN on SQ (back in the days when they used to fly non stop between BOM-MAN) & that was enough. a minute more & i probably would have jumped off with my parachute  

AI

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 37): DL will have the only ns to BOM. But it ain't gonna be no picnic for DL making money on this route

Why wouldn't they make money?

US business travellers by and large prefer taking American carriers because of FF miles, etc., as do US-based Indian Americans (for the same reasons). Even when US passengers had a choice of taking far superior airlines to India than Delta, Delta always made money on its Bombay operations.

If CO and AA are doing well on the Delhi nonstop route, DL will do incredibly well on the BOM route. Even if AI enter into the nonstop fray, DL will still be a viable choice because many Indian-Americans inherently distrust AI.

another point of interest....

this new JFKBOM route started 15 years to the day after DL began service to India as part of the Pan Am asset acquistion. For the past 15 years, DL has served India via Europe (first FRA, then CDG) on the longest 767 flight by any US airline (with the MAA flight being the longest flight for the short time it operated). Most of the time it originated at JFK but DL did switch the origin to ATL to help improve traffic during the last few months as a one-stop flight.

I expect the JFK-BOM flight will be very profitable and will be the first of many DL nonstops from the US to India.

ATL-DKR-JNB now becomes the longest 767 flight for DL and the US industry and DL 767s at least for now will not be seen in Asia. I expect that will change before too long and the 767s will be operating nonstop from the mainland US to some destinations in Asia.  

Quoting Jbmitt (Reply 10): CVG also loses the AMS, and FCO non-stops. Any idea where these 767s position out to? Do they appear elsewhere in the schedule?

These have always been seasonal. They are not on next summer schedules, but look for them to return unless they've put them on more opportune routes.