QXatFAT
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Could JetBlue Use A True Western Hub?

Wed Nov 01, 2006 4:42 pm

Just my thoughts here, but could jetBlue use a TRUE Western hub? Maybe turning LGB into a hub like JFK or OAK into one? Moving some E190s or purchasing more to serve the FAT, PHX, SMF, TUS, SCK, RNO with the small aircraft? And then useing some of the bigger aircraft for the LGB to PDX, LAS, PHX, OAK, DEN, SEA, PVR, CUN, GDL, SMF routes? Yes I know jetBlue already offers a few of these but making it into a true hub like JFK is.
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jpetekyxmd80
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RE: Could JetBlue Use A True Western Hub?

Wed Nov 01, 2006 4:44 pm

Quoting QXatFAT (Thread starter):
Maybe turning LGB into a hub like JFK

Well yes, if it wasn't severely slot restricted.
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as739x
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RE: Could JetBlue Use A True Western Hub?

Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:21 pm

QXatFAT...JetBlue can only add so many more flights in Long Beach. They are close to there slot allotments. The E190 doesn't fall under the cummuter waiver due to its higher weight. LGB will not see many more flights then it has now. Remember LGB also doesn't even have jetways or that much gates space for that matter. They operate out of shacks practically. LGB is more of a forever focus city that works due to the LA Metro O/D traffic. OAK has the best chance, and thats a long shot with limited gates an being a Southwest hub per se.

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GoBlue
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RE: Could JetBlue Use A True Western Hub?

Wed Nov 01, 2006 11:14 pm

Problem with a western hub right now would be the lack of an airport that is available for them, where they have a viable presence already , and UA, SWA and oth ermajors do not have a huge operation. They did well with JFK as it was under served domestically (by LCC), and they have yet to locate that site in the mid-west that they want to exploit. I would assume there is a western hub on the horizon, but it will be a slow deliberate move out west...... based on there reduction in expansion!

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Tan Flyr
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RE: Could JetBlue Use A True Western Hub?

Thu Nov 02, 2006 1:08 am

Just my 2 cents here from the San Joaquin Valley..Several things at play here.
Already established hubs for Western/Rocky Mtn region at DEN/SLC/PHX.
A more north/south Pacific Coast hub at SFO with UA.
Mini hub commuter at LAX for UA & AA.
Unused hub potential at SJC

So where would you put it with enough O&D traffic and compete with whom?
The only 3 places I can think of would be FAT (fat chance!) ,SJC or SMF. Not sure about gates and such at SMF, But I would think that FAT could accomodate some sort of mini hub with it's existing structure.

Would it profitable/ practicle?? If there is enough traffic that would avoid connections at either SJC /SFO to do it and feed cross- country flights?

Would the 195s be too big for such an operation?

Lots of questions..few answers.
 
PanAm747
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RE: Could JetBlue Use A True Western Hub?

Thu Nov 02, 2006 1:15 am

I'm afraid to say that Alaska/Horizon, United, and Southwest have virtually all the point-to-point and hub flights on the west coast that is needed.

SFO and LAX are used primarily as Asian getaway hubs, while PDX and SEA are Pacific Northwest hubs. Any other point-to-point service is taken care of with Southwest and Horizon.

It's a good idea, but the true "hub" system relies on a lot of O&D numbers, and I think on the west coast, that's pretty much taken care of as it stands now.
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Could JetBlue Use A True Western Hub?

Thu Nov 02, 2006 1:38 am

Quoting TAN FLYR (Reply 4):
Already established hubs for Western/Rocky Mtn region at DEN/SLC/PHX.

Since F9 is competing against UA at DEN and HP/US and WN are as big as they are in both PHX and LAS why not have B6 go into SLC (Neelman's hometown LOL!  laughing  Wink) and be a competing LCC against DL? The big issue aside from the DL competition I see is gate space.  twocents 
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F9Animal
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RE: Could JetBlue Use A True Western Hub?

Thu Nov 02, 2006 1:44 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 6):
Since F9 is competing against UA at DEN and HP/US and WN are as big as they are in both PHX and LAS why not have B6 go into SLC (Neelman's hometown LOL! laughing Wink) and be a competing LCC against DL? The big issue aside from the DL competition I see is gate space. twocents

DL would defend SLC tooth and nail. I would not want to see that happen. Reno has been a market that has been hurt since Reno Air has left. Filter flights through Reno might be interesting.
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Could JetBlue Use A True Western Hub?

Thu Nov 02, 2006 1:55 am

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 7):
DL would defend SLC tooth and nail. I would not want to see that happen. Reno has been a market that has been hurt since Reno Air has left. Filter flights through Reno might be interesting.

Isn't that what they said about DEN and UA? RNO is much too small, they are just an LAS wannabe at this point.  twocents 
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jetblueatjfk
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RE: Could JetBlue Use A True Western Hub?

Thu Nov 02, 2006 1:56 am

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 7):

DL would defend SLC tooth and nail. I would not want to see that happen. Reno has been a market that has been hurt since Reno Air has left. Filter flights through Reno might be interesting.

RNO seems like a good destination choice but I don't know about a hub there. Maybe like 2X to JFK, 1X BOS, 1X IAD, 2X OAK, 1X LGB, 1X BUR and they can call that a good focus city.

I can see jetBlue grow a little more at OAK without really getting itno head to head fare wares with WN. Also SJC does well for the, so they could maybe expand that a little.

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travelin man
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RE: Could JetBlue Use A True Western Hub?

Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:39 am

ONT seems to be severely underutilized. If B6 needed loads of gates in a fairly new airport near a major metro, I'd think ONT would be near the top of the list. That area is just going to grow.
 
F9Animal
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RE: Could JetBlue Use A True Western Hub?

Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:42 am

Quoting JetBlueAtJFK (Reply 9):
RNO seems like a good destination choice but I don't know about a hub there. Maybe like 2X to JFK, 1X BOS, 1X IAD, 2X OAK, 1X LGB, 1X BUR and they can call that a good focus city.

I can see jetBlue grow a little more at OAK without really getting itno head to head fare wares with WN. Also SJC does well for the, so they could maybe expand that a little.

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I would give a kidney to see the 195's in the west. Any idea if there is any chatter on this?
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B6JFKH81
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RE: Could JetBlue Use A True Western Hub?

Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:53 am

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 10):
ONT seems to be severely underutilized. If B6 needed loads of gates in a fairly new airport near a major metro, I'd think ONT would be near the top of the list. That area is just going to grow.

That is an interesting idea that has some backbone to it and actually allows growth. We should have expanded ONT instead of BUR.  cheeky 

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 11):
I would give a kidney to see the 195's in the west. Any idea if there is any chatter on this?

Don't give away your kidney too quickly. First, we don't fly 195's, we fly 190's.  duck 
Anyway, the 190's will have to make their way west eventually, and I have a feeling that their integration correlates to whatever dots we start adding to the map in 2007/2008 heading further west and then begin to connect them.
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travelin man
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RE: Could JetBlue Use A True Western Hub?

Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:11 am

Quoting B6JFKH81 (Reply 12):
That is an interesting idea that has some backbone to it and actually allows growth. We should have expanded ONT instead of BUR.

Don't get me wrong, I live 15 minutes from BUR and it is a great market. But ONT would seem to have the ability to actually be a "hub" in a true sense of the word, with decent facilities and capacity, and a fairly good O&D market (even allowing for the fact it is 30-40 miles east of downtown LA).
 
roseflyer
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RE: Could JetBlue Use A True Western Hub?

Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:17 am

I don't think a west coast hub fits in well for them at the moment, since it doesn't really fit in to where jetBlue has done well. JetBlue has thrived off of the vacation crowd headed to Florida from the northeast. Well there is no such market in the west coast with the exception of what Alaska has in Seattle. In the east, there is a huge population of middle to upper class people that live in the northern climate and have the money to spend on vacations in the winter. In the west, the population is centered in California, so there isn't as huge of a vacation market.

With that said, another factor is that the west is much less densely populated. The cities being bounced around as ideas have no where near the population of what JFK and BOS serve. Yes LAX, SFO and SEA are among the 25 busiest airports, but they are all very well served.

There just isn't the market available. America West came in to existance in the 1980s by thriving off of PHX and LAS, but those markets are tapped.

The midwest already has too many hubs and is in decline.

So where will jetBlue go? It seems like connecting the dots might make sense although their recent push in to this market in recent years has not yielded much and their profits are small and near nonexistant now.

In the end, jetBlue found a niche and exploited it, but there hasn't been a second niche found yet that has that much potential. Maybe there is one out there, but I doubt that it is on the west coast.
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QXatFAT
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RE: Could JetBlue Use A True Western Hub?

Thu Nov 02, 2006 4:57 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 14):
In the west, the population is centered in California, so there isn't as huge of a vacation market.

I wouldnt take that to a large extent. A lot of people here travel for vacation. You have massive amounts of people that travel to Hawaii for vacations year around, people flying to SEA to catch cruzes (normaly on AS/QX), people flying to SLC and DEN for skiing!, people flying to Mexico all the time! Even here in FAT with the sucess to GDL MX is flying that there already upgrading it for the holliday and the talk about F9 possibly coming into FAT to try to serve Mexico as well. So your statement on vacations not leaving california, you are very wrong. Plus all the people that come here to go on vacation. The speedways, the professional sports arenas and parks, SFO, LAX, SMF for buisness, FAT for national parks, SAN for get aways, must I go on?

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 14):
With that said, another factor is that the west is much less densely populated.

Sure it is less densly populated compaird do the BOS, JFK, IAD, BWI rejion but you still have a massive amount of people living in the LAX, SAN area. That place is just filling in all the little spaces it has left. If you look at a population dot graph you can see that the area down there is filling up fast! So sure that the NYC area is bigger but the LA area on on the rise.
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galapagapop
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RE: Could JetBlue Use A True Western Hub?

Thu Nov 02, 2006 4:57 am

I'd be interested in them adding some more routes to and from SAN. They use 2 gates atm for the IAD and JFK afternoon flights (What only 3 daily depatures? 2 JFK 1 IAD?), I'm sure they could stock in a morning flight to maybe Florida? Or OAK? Along with some other things. I don't think SAN could ever be like JFK, but I think some better utilization of gates and personel would be up its alley.
 
srbmod
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RE: Could JetBlue Use A True Western Hub?

Thu Nov 02, 2006 6:10 am

What about COS? The majority of service into COS is by Mesa, SkyWest, and ExpressJet. It seemed to work for Western Pacific as a hub until they stupidly moved their hub to DEN.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: Could JetBlue Use A True Western Hub?

Thu Nov 02, 2006 6:28 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 14):
With that said, another factor is that the west is much less densely populated. The cities being bounced around as ideas have no where near the population of what JFK and BOS serve. Yes LAX, SFO and SEA are among the 25 busiest airports, but they are all very well served.

Yes it is, but SoCal has an enourmous market and its growing exponitially. They can definately grow in the LA area. ONT is a great suggestion and so is SAN. BOS serves a MUCH smaller market that do the Los Angeles airports and the bay area is around the same size if not bigger than the Boston area. There is no room for growth at LAX, LGB, and BUR, but ONT and SAN are good suggestions.
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ikramerica
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RE: Could JetBlue Use A True Western Hub?

Thu Nov 02, 2006 6:48 am

If they keep running radio ads where a potential customer doesn't need extra legroom because he lacks an extra leg, I don't think they have to worry about exponential growth out here in Los Angeles, anyway.
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LAXdude1023
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RE: Could JetBlue Use A True Western Hub?

Thu Nov 02, 2006 7:23 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 19):
If they keep running radio ads where a potential customer doesn't need extra legroom because he lacks an extra leg, I don't think they have to worry about exponential growth out here in Los Angeles, anyway.

Haha, yeah, I hear those on KROQ all the time. I think ONT is a cash cow and someone (hopefully B6) will cash in on it.  twocents 

[Edited 2006-11-01 23:27:29]
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roseflyer
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RE: Could JetBlue Use A True Western Hub?

Thu Nov 02, 2006 7:35 am

Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 15):
I wouldnt take that to a large extent. A lot of people here travel for vacation. You have massive amounts of people that travel to Hawaii for vacations year around, people flying to SEA to catch cruzes (normaly on AS/QX), people flying to SLC and DEN for skiing!, people flying to Mexico all the time! Even here in FAT with the sucess to GDL MX is flying that there already upgrading it for the holliday and the talk about F9 possibly coming into FAT to try to serve Mexico as well. So your statement on vacations not leaving california, you are very wrong. Plus all the people that come here to go on vacation. The speedways, the professional sports arenas and parks, SFO, LAX, SMF for buisness, FAT for national parks, SAN for get aways, must I go on?

Do you have any idea how big the New York City market to Florida is? There are roughly 160 flights per day between the three New York airports to Florida, and jetBlue has about a quarter of the market. This is huge!!!

Daily flights to each of these cities from NYC
41 FLL
29 MIA
21 PBI
35 MCO
11 RSW
23 TPA

That is the bread and butter of jetBlue. They are very successful on these routes. There is nothing on the west coast to that volume. Bay Area-LA Area is big, but there is no way that jetBlue could come in and operate 50 flights profitably in that corridor that is dominated by United and Southwest.

I'm not trying to argue, but I still don't think that there isn't as much potential as to what jetBlue has achieved. For example, Ft. Lauderdale has many times the number of cruise ships based there year round compared to those that Seattle and Vancouver have for a three month span that go to Alaska. Hawaii is a small market compared to Florida. I don't deny that there are a lot of people and a lot of travel for vacationers to Mexico, Hawaii, the Pacific Northwest and the Mountains, but it isn't at the volume that the east coast has and there isn't really the potential. Alaska has Seattle completely locked up as it is a dominant force. WN has intra California taken care of and United has the country and world covered from California. And there are also other hubs. So yes there is a market, there isn't the potential that jetBlue had when it started at JFK.
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galapagapop
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RE: Could JetBlue Use A True Western Hub?

Thu Nov 02, 2006 7:45 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 18):

Yes it is, but SoCal has an enourmous market and its growing exponitially. They can definately grow in the LA area. ONT is a great suggestion and so is SAN. BOS serves a MUCH smaller market that do the Los Angeles airports and the bay area is around the same size if not bigger than the Boston area. There is no room for growth at LAX, LGB, and BUR, but ONT and SAN are good suggestions.

The thing is for SAN and ONT its delays and just general restrictions in size. SAN is great but again 18+ days a year you have 2+ hour delays into and out of SAN with the 9/27 mess with one ILS and takeoff restrictions, this is a huge limiter of a hub operation. I suggested for SAN merely a decent upgrade for B6. Very trendy area ( in terms of wealth) and I've always held that B6 appeals on some trendy sublevel, which can explain its popularity in many markets. Not to mention with 2 gates they own and the 3rd daily JFK flight coming off the books for the winter season I think having 2 gates for 3 flights is excessive, I see the permenant staff, but I think they'd do good adding a few flights to utilize gates and it if some good routes are added along with times, B6 can do really good. BTW is there only 1 US airline on SAN-CUN? Could B6 open that up, or is AS going to serve it?
 
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mariner
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RE: Could JetBlue Use A True Western Hub?

Thu Nov 02, 2006 7:54 am

Quoting Galapagapop (Reply 22):
BTW is there only 1 US airline on SAN-CUN? Could B6 open that up, or is AS going to serve it?

Is Frontier not good enough?

???

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travelin man
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RE: Could JetBlue Use A True Western Hub?

Thu Nov 02, 2006 7:57 am

Quoting Galapagapop (Reply 22):
The thing is for SAN and ONT its delays and just general restrictions in size.

Neither SAN nor ONT have many delays (if any). And ONT certainly isn't size-restricted at all.
 
galapagapop
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RE: Could JetBlue Use A True Western Hub?

Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:21 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 23):
Is Frontier not good enough?

I had a feeling there were 2 just couldn't figure the last one. Na F9 is fine  Wink

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 24):
Neither SAN nor ONT have many delays (if any). And ONT certainly isn't size-restricted at all.

Wrong SAN does have delays. Certainly a few every now and then during morning rushes, but a certain number of days a year fog envelopes the SAN bay, causing the use of ILS. But 27, the runway normally used in all ops, is not ILS and is visual do the hard approach. 9 is ILS, however due to downtown's close proximity there are heavy restrictions on depatures on 9 due to obstruction (reduces runway length to what? 5400 ft?). As a result it becomes an ATC nightmare as what happens arrivals are stacked around the airport as they let 3 to 5 depatures go out, then ATC switches and allows 3 to 5 arrivals. This pattern needs time for clearance, and with the restricted size of SAN swopping the runway configuration with the limited number of taxiways and such is a nightmare with delays nubmering 2+ hours. Not sure of many days so far this year this has happened, but I remember it being past 15 in past years. Now maybe not too important through a year, but with B6's rotations and for example for the summer season the IAD inbound (gets in around 1pm or so) turns to 185? (Right number?) for the JFK return. Now this is so to properly rotate planes between bases and such, but if SAN were to hold more flights and maybe even connections this system would be flawed on days like this having implications that reach back into the East Coast sectors of the system.
This also doesn't include other weather factors that can (though infrequently  Wink ) happen at SAN.

Again SAN is not a west coast hub, it's just an underserved B6 station with infrastructure that's theirs but being used for 3 flights year round and 4 (is there a 2nd IAD?) in the summer.
 
QXatFAT
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RE: Could JetBlue Use A True Western Hub?

Thu Nov 02, 2006 9:07 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 21):
I'm not trying to argue

Dont worry, I dont see it as an arguement.  Smile

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 21):
There is nothing on the west coast to that volume

But does something HAVE to be as big or bigger then the NYC area in order to take on a hub somewhere else? Look at CLE its a mini hub for CO and you have NW right there in DTW serving the same cities. Or how about CVG for DL? I think there is plenty of people here for the market to have a jetBlue hub. That is just my opinion of course and yours seems to be the oposite haha. Is there really a TRUE hub even in California besides UA in SFO?
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travelin man
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RE: Could JetBlue Use A True Western Hub?

Thu Nov 02, 2006 9:35 am

Quoting Galapagapop (Reply 25):
Neither SAN nor ONT have many delays (if any). And ONT certainly isn't size-restricted at all.

Wrong SAN does have delays. Certainly a few every now and then during morning rushes, but a certain number of days a year fog envelopes the SAN bay, causing the use of ILS.

I'm not saying they don't have any delays, but they definitely have fewer than JFK (B6's main hub). So that shouldn't be a concern.

And I'd separate out SAN from ONT. You seem very knowledgeable about SAN, but ONT isn't affected by any of the conditions you described.
 
EMBQA
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RE: Could JetBlue Use A True Western Hub?

Thu Nov 02, 2006 9:59 am

Quoting QXatFAT (Thread starter):
Just my thoughts here, but could jetBlue use a TRUE Western hub?

Why would an eastcoast airline want a westcoast hub....???
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roseflyer
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RE: Could JetBlue Use A True Western Hub?

Thu Nov 02, 2006 10:18 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 28):
Why would an eastcoast airline want a westcoast hub....???

Why did a west coast airline recently buy an east coast airline? (US Airways)

Why do west coast airlines keep getting bought out by big airlines from the east (PSA, Renoair, Western, etc).
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SANFan
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RE: Could JetBlue Use A True Western Hub?

Thu Nov 02, 2006 10:44 am

Quoting Galapagapop (Reply 16):
I'd be interested in them adding some more routes to and from SAN. They use 2 gates atm for the IAD and JFK afternoon flights

A couple of thoughts. First, Gala, unless something drastic has changed, B6 uses only one gate at Lindbergh; it used to be 37 (B6 sharing the gate with 1 SY flight), and it appears to be 38 right now. I have not noticed them using more than any one gate ever during their daily op's.

Their current schedule is only 3 flights, as you said, with the evening turns being carefully timed so the IAD arrival (# 309 at 8:10pm) turns to #186 to JFK departing at 9:05; the JFK inbound (#185) arrives at 9:25 and returns east to IAD at 10:20 as #316. During the summer, they of course had the 3rd JFK flight but also the IAD r/t was a RON with an early morning departure. (There are several threads where this was discussed; you might do a search.)

I do agree with you very strongly (and have so-stated in many posts on several threads and in correspondence to B6) that they are missing many opportunities in SAN. The BOS situation has been discussed many times, the lack of any n/s from SAN to the state of Florida (e.g., MCO, FLL, MIA, TPA) would be a perfect fit for JetBlue, and despite what has been said (even in this thread) SAN to PDX/SEA is a market ripe for competition. It is served n/s only by AS with some direct service on WN and UA. Also, WN has many monopolies from SAN (such as OAK and SMF) that could certainly support at least 2 cx. Another golden opportunity for B6. JetBlue seems so far to be pretty much ignoring the many opportunities in SAN.

I also agree that due to SAN's geographical location, a hub is not practical. But Focus or Key status is certainly a solid fit for SAN. (Again, do a search for some of the stuff that's been said here just in the last couple of months.)

As for ONT, mentioned several times in this thread, I think its location is just too far out for consideration as a real focus city for anyone. It's a big, beautiful, roomy, modern airport and it's the key to the future of aviation in the LA megalopolis. But there have been many failed attempts at routes from ONT (just off the top of my head, I know HA and NW have pulled out completely) and I just don't think enough pax are willing to use that airport YET.

In fact, I just checked and B6 started service to ONT in 2001 and currently they fly once a day to JFK; it appears that JetBlue has not seen huge growth in the station so far.

bb
 
as739x
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RE: Could JetBlue Use A True Western Hub?

Thu Nov 02, 2006 11:29 am

Out of curiousity guys, regarding ONT don't you think it would be busier if it was a cash cow? You fly over ONT during the day and its a ghost town. I'd just have to think if it had to much potential, someone would have bit by now. My impression is ONT will get busier when airlines are forced there.

Also, under JetBlue's current condition I think opening an west coast hub would be very risky and possible jeapordize the airlines future. All the more reason they wouldn't touch SLC where they'd lose month head over heel fighting DL. I personally just don't see B6 building up on the left coast.

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mariner
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RE: Could JetBlue Use A True Western Hub?

Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:21 pm

Quoting AS739X (Reply 31):
Also, under JetBlue's current condition I think opening an west coast hub would be very risky and possible jeapordize the airlines future.

 checkmark 

Quoting AS739X (Reply 31):
All the more reason they wouldn't touch SLC where they'd lose month head over heel fighting DL.

 checkmark 

Quoting AS739X (Reply 31):
I personally just don't see B6 building up on the left coast.

 checkmark 

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luv2fly
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RE: Could JetBlue Use A True Western Hub?

Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:26 pm

Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 26):
Look at CLE its a mini hub for CO

Granted it is the smallest of the three CO hubs it is not considered "mini" PIT would be an example of a true "mini" hub.
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walter747
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RE: Could JetBlue Use A True Western Hub?

Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:27 pm

Quoting JpetekYXMD80 (Reply 1):
Quoting QXatFAT (Thread starter):
Maybe turning LGB into a hub like JFK

Well yes, if it wasn't severely slot restricted.

LGB doesn't even have jetways. and yes they do need a western hub other than LGB.

Maybe be SAN  yes 
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QXatFAT
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RE: Could JetBlue Use A True Western Hub?

Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:55 pm

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 33):
Granted it is the smallest of the three CO hubs it is not considered "mini" PIT would be an example of a true "mini" hub.

By mini yes I ment in CO standards being the smaller one. And that is what I mean for B6. Does not have to be as big as JFK but a airport that can serve the states surrounding California and go into the valley. FAT, SCK, BFL, SMF would all be good for E190s. Buissness travel to the south to connect going to JFK, ORD, and IAD would be great! Would give QX a run for its money.

LGB could always build onto its airport right if they knew that B6 was planning on making it part of its buisness? I would think any city would be up for the buisness to try to keep things within their own city.
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rw717
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RE: Could JetBlue Use A True Western Hub?

Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:57 pm

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 7):
Reno has been a market that has been hurt since Reno Air has left. Filter flights through Reno might be interesting.

Reno worked very well for QQ as a hub, but a hub for them was 40 flts per day. As a former CSA for QQ I think that a focus city in RNO (similiar to LGB) would work well for B6. LAS-RNO is monopolized, Plus RNO is not a bad stop when going from north to south (or vice-versa). You could even offer free stopovers in RNO like Sunworld used to offer in LAS.
Just my 2 cents.
Reno Air - The Biggest Little Airline in the World
 
F9Animal
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RE: Could JetBlue Use A True Western Hub?

Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:01 pm

Quoting B6JFKH81 (Reply 12):
Don't give away your kidney too quickly. First, we don't fly 195's, we fly 190's. duck
Anyway, the 190's will have to make their way west eventually, and I have a feeling that their integration correlates to whatever dots we start adding to the map in 2007/2008 heading further west and then begin to connect them.
eyebrow

LMAO!!! Oh man, I was tired when I typed that out, and trying to cook something at the same time..... I also had to change the cat litter, and my keyboard screwed that up.

Alright...... I had a brain fart!!! Still would give the kidney though!

Quoting RW717 (Reply 36):
Reno worked very well for QQ as a hub, but a hub for them was 40 flts per day. As a former CSA for QQ I think that a focus city in RNO (similiar to LGB) would work well for B6. LAS-RNO is monopolized, Plus RNO is not a bad stop when going from north to south (or vice-versa). You could even offer free stopovers in RNO like Sunworld used to offer in LAS.
Just my 2 cents.

Yes!!! CSA for QQ? Where did you work out of? I miss the heck out of QQ. Someone has to fill that void, and I agree that RNO would be a good focus city for B6. North, south, east, and west would be a good market for them. I am surprised nobody tried to jump on it. Granted it is a wannabe Vegas, RNO has very dedicated travelers.
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galapagapop
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RE: Could JetBlue Use A True Western Hub?

Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:46 pm

Quoting SANFan (Reply 30):
A couple of thoughts. First, Gala, unless something drastic has changed, B6 uses only one gate at Lindbergh; it used to be 37 (B6 sharing the gate with 1 SY flight), and it appears to be 38 right now. I have not noticed them using more than any one gate ever during their daily op's.

Their current schedule is only 3 flights, as you said, with the evening turns being carefully timed so the IAD arrival (# 309 at 8:10pm) turns to #186 to JFK departing at 9:05; the JFK inbound (#185) arrives at 9:25 and returns east to IAD at 10:20 as #316. During the summer, they of course had the 3rd JFK flight but also the IAD r/t was a RON with an early morning departure. (There are several threads where this was discussed; you might do a search.)

I do agree with you very strongly (and have so-stated in many posts on several threads and in correspondence to B6) that they are missing many opportunities in SAN. The BOS situation has been discussed many times, the lack of any n/s from SAN to the state of Florida (e.g., MCO, FLL, MIA, TPA) would be a perfect fit for JetBlue, and despite what has been said (even in this thread) SAN to PDX/SEA is a market ripe for competition. It is served n/s only by AS with some direct service on WN and UA. Also, WN has many monopolies from SAN (such as OAK and SMF) that could certainly support at least 2 cx. Another golden opportunity for B6. JetBlue seems so far to be pretty much ignoring the many opportunities in SAN.

I also agree that due to SAN's geographical location, a hub is not practical. But Focus or Key status is certainly a solid fit for SAN. (Again, do a search for some of the stuff that's been said here just in the last couple of months.)


Actually they have. I was just there on last Saturday trying to catch the 2:55 (around and about that time) back to JFK. We boarded the originating IAD plane for our flight through 38 and at 36 was the other B6 flight ( I never noticed until I was on A/C so I have no idea where it was going to, but it was just being freshly unloaded (believe it was the 11AM from JFK). Now can you explain to me why have B6 stopped using 37? I noticed nothing wrong with it, but I haven't seen a B6 A/C there for about 6 months. Originally in past summers 37 and 38 were used. Kinda liked that as it was in the same area.

Another thing is I've talked to their ground staff at SAN a number of times (call me chatty) and I've heard 2 gates mentioned every time when I talk about their infrastructure. (I know its not terribly reliable info).

I would have love to take B6 to OAK (But its going to be a matter of room at OAK, B6 probably would rather have a JFK flight than a SAN shorthaul flight), I had to fly to DEN then OAK on UA 4 weeks ago. Now I know this station never opened but I could see BDL being a good SAN market (Stretchin the range I know....) as it can grab from some of the BOS market.

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 27):
And I'd separate out SAN from ONT. You seem very knowledgeable about SAN, but ONT isn't affected by any of the conditions you described.

I did not associate ONT with those weather conditions that is something unique to only SAN atm.
 
travelin man
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RE: Could JetBlue Use A True Western Hub?

Fri Nov 03, 2006 2:25 am

Quoting AS739X (Reply 31):
Out of curiousity guys, regarding ONT don't you think it would be busier if it was a cash cow? You fly over ONT during the day and its a ghost town. I'd just have to think if it had to much potential, someone would have bit by now. My impression is ONT will get busier when airlines are forced there.

You could have said the same thing about LGB prior to B6's arrival there.
 
SANFan
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RE: Could JetBlue Use A True Western Hub?

Fri Nov 03, 2006 5:25 am

Quoting Galapagapop (Reply 38):
Actually they have. I was just there on last Saturday trying to catch the 2:55 (around and about that time) back to JFK. We boarded the originating IAD plane for our flight through 38 and at 36 was the other B6 flight ( I never noticed until I was on A/C so I have no idea where it was going to, but it was just being freshly unloaded (believe it was the 11AM from JFK). Now can you explain to me why have B6 stopped using 37?

Interesting, Galap'. First, let me explain that I am not physically in SAN these days so I can't get to Lindbergh to check things out; I'm kind of a "remote SANFan". (And boy do I miss San Diego!) I constantly check flight info using the SAN website, a tool that I think is very cool:
http://www.san.org/airport/flights/flight_info.asp

That all said, first, I have no idea what 2 B6s were doing there in the afternoon last Saturday. As I mentioned in my earlier post (Reply 30), their IAD r/t (#309/316) is evening. Extra section or charter would be my guess. Since JetBlue started in SAN in June 2003, they have never had 2 scheduled overlapping a/c, even (I'm very sure) when they had their scheduled RON.

Although I don't know the absolute situation regarding gate "ownership" at Lindbergh, if I remember correctly, when T2 West opened, CO operated from (and still does) gates 35 and 36 and DL pretty much "managed" gates 37-41. DL has seen some schedule reduction here (e.g., DFW flights xld) so they mainly use 39-40-41. However, they do seem to be back in 37 now although primarily just for Express flights to SLC...

Maybe there is some reorganization occurring to try to manage gates better and even, hopefully, try to make room for additional carriers. In this case, however, I would think DL would prefer consecutive gates, i.e., 38 thru 41. Also, I believe their Crown Room is right in that area as well. And, since DL currently has 7 RONs at SAN, that's when they need every gate they can get; in fact, maybe that has something to do with why B6 eliminated their RON... HA's two beautiful birds are also in the mix, using gate 41 tonight for both late-evening arrivals.

I have long-hoped that B6 would get more gate space at Lindbergh in order to expand their op's here. Maybe they do have access to 2 gates and just need to coordinate things with DL and SY.

Boy do we need terminal expansion ASAP!

bb
 
galapagapop
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RE: Could JetBlue Use A True Western Hub?

Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:17 am

Quoting SANFan (Reply 40):
SANFan

Well the 2 were from old scedules that ended 11/1 (or around then), this was 10/27, so it was still 3 JFK 1 IAD. I'm baffled for the 2 planes, although I have seen 2 planes on the airfield at once, and they go 37 and 38 respectively, but the time together is 20 minutes at best. I'm not good on schedules for B6 outside JFK-SAN (I fly at least 5 times a year) so I cannot match times and flight numbers. But I know my eyes saw what they saw. I did indeed notice 37 lowered for express flights when I was out there, which is why the other plane was over at 36. In that afternoon block with B6, almost matches HP's in and out ops they had just a year ago where a A319 would be taxiing out, and a CRJ900 comes in right after (I assume a good schedule day) using their 2 gates. Now its US, but its still pretty hustle and bustle.
 
SANFan
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RE: Could JetBlue Use A True Western Hub?

Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:39 pm

Galap', you've got me hooked here; I'm not trying to give you a hard time but I just want to figure out what's happening with B6 in SAN.

Your referred to your trip from SD to NY as both "Oct 27" and as "Saturday". I'm assuming you meant Friday, Oct 27 since, eff. 10/03, B6 flew the 2:50 PM departure from SD on Mo, Th, Fr and Su only. (And you're right, the flight ended for the season on Monday, 10/30.)

I went into FlightAware and looked back at Friday, Oct 27, and captured the following:

JBU182 A320 John F Kennedy Int'l (KJFK) Fri 12:51PM PDT
JBU184 A320 John F Kennedy Int'l (KJFK) Fri 03:14PM PDT
JBU186 A320 John F Kennedy Int'l (KJFK) Fri 09:35PM PDT
JBU316 A320 Washington Dulles Int'l (KIAD) Fri 10:40PM PDT

These are all the B6 departures for that Friday; the final column lists the actual departure time from SAN. You were obviously on flight 184 and I sure can't explain what was at the next gate...

I realize of course that all bets are off during delayed flights when everyone just does the best they can with what's available. But that was apparently not the case on that day.

Next time you're at the airport, see what you can find out from the B6 gate agents about what's coming up for SAN; we could use some more rumors here at A.net!  Wink

Take care Galapagapop (and please decipher your screen name for me sometime -- does it mean a native or resident of the Galapagos Islands maybe?)

bb
 
laca773
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RE: Could JetBlue Use A True Western Hub?

Fri Nov 03, 2006 2:45 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 20):
I think ONT is a cash cow and someone (hopefully B6) will cash in on it.

I think ONT "could" be a cash cow for someone, but like many other's have said in this post and many other posts when ONT is brought up, is that it's quite a ways out from the Los Angeles borders and etc. Traffic can be a hellish nightmare in any area of this concrete jungle basin, but can be especially bad heading out on the 10 either east or west....

What it might take to get a carrier like B6 or F9 to develop a focus city at ONT is for the city of Los Angeles {LAWA} to give them some incentives to increase service there.

AS739X, how are AS's loads out of ONT?

LACA773
 
akjetBlue
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RE: Could JetBlue Use A True Western Hub?

Fri Nov 03, 2006 10:52 pm

Back to the original question: Could JetBlue use a true western hub?

First I think B6 needs to figure out what they are doing in terms of what type of airline they truly wanna be. Currently they seem to have not made a full decision as to whether or not they are a hub and spoke airline offering connections from their hub in JFK and focus cities in IAD and BOS; or if they want to be a point to point airline a la WN.


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Given B6 has added a few point to point routes but if they are going to continue to want to connect all their cities then they need to do what WN does in opening a new city. They go in strong usually with +15-20 flights to more than 5 destinations with a large station crew and often opening provisioning in the city as well. This allows them to connect any city to any city without having to worry about provisioning or new station ops and probably lowers their cost of employee to aircraft, just a guess though.


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So, to answer the question “Could JetBlue use a true western hub?” Yes and No. LGB is just not the size of an airport that they could turn into a 100 flight a day station; most other major cities that could support it already have an airline there with a large presence. They could use a western hub however they may be better off with developing a few focus cities out west and adding a few more cites from east to west. Remember though that transcons aren’t always efficient use of aircraft unless you have high revenue. In the time you can run a JFK-LGB-JFK you can run that aircraft up and down the east coast doing short hauls and prob make more money. Currently there are only a handful of places to connect to on the West Coast from LGB or OAK; so unless B6 is looking to do more short haul hops on the west coast from their focus cities; the idea of a true western hub might not be an efficient idea.


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In the meanwhile they prob should focus on adding frequency in the northeast if they truly want the business market. Two or three flights a day between major cities doesn’t always cut it even if you’re getting a $59 fare. On a positive note; I read recently that B6 is being added to most GD (Global Distribution) systems which should help them out with some additional revenue, and help get the word out to customers in the new cities they are flying to.
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galapagapop
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RE: Could JetBlue Use A True Western Hub?

Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:25 am

Quoting SANFan (Reply 42):
Your referred to your trip from SD to NY as both "Oct 27" and as "Saturday". I'm assuming you meant Friday, Oct 27 since, eff. 10/03, B6 flew the 2:50 PM departure from SD on Mo, Th, Fr and Su only. (And you're right, the flight ended for the season on Monday, 10/30.)

By the time I got home it was Sat though, sorry for that, it was indeed Friday. I'm baffled as well.
Now I would maybe say it was 182 delayed, but I actually witnessed 182 take-off from 9 when I was arriving at the airport (1PM Approx). Up until 2:45 ramp 38,37,36 was empty. Then the inbound came in, and from what I got from the ground crew it was from IAD. The plane that came in 2nd was probably the normal JFK flight that went to 36, that was around 3 or so. We were supposed to depart at 3:00 or so, but we were running late, due to the late (IAD arrival, from what was told) quick cleaning and we were off. To me it seemed right to some degree as the outbound had the crew flying a set of JFK-SAN-IAD for that days rotation, and 2 of the FA's were going back on it by doing a IAD-FLL-IAD-SAN-JFK over the next 3 days from what I grasped. I could scratch my head over and over but eh. Either way 38 is B6's but 36 must be common use to some degree, and 37 doesn't seem busy at all.

Quoting SANFan (Reply 42):
Take care Galapagapop (and please decipher your screen name for me sometime -- does it mean a native or resident of the Galapagos Islands maybe?)

Na no national ties. Just pronounce syllable by syllable. Ga-la-pa-ga-pop
Just made it up for a research project on the probability of god's and religious ties through history. It was the test subject for me in some of my reasoning (probably not flawless....)
 
LAXintl
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RE: Could JetBlue Use A True Western Hub?

Sun Nov 05, 2006 4:01 am

For those that talk about ONT lets gets some facts on the table.

  • Located in the single fastest growing region of California known as the Inland Empire.
    The Counties of San Bernardino and Riverside have seen nonstop growth leading to a population boom which registers 4 million and will soon make the region one of the top-10 metropolitan statistical areas in the country.
    In addition areas economic growth has also been very strong as many companies relocate into the region. The greater Southern California region as seen and Eastward shift in its industrial and commercial heart towards the Inland Empire

  • Modern large inviting airport.
    Currently under utilized with only a little over 7 million annual boardings.
    LAWA same operator as LAX provides economic incentives for services at ONT via significantly reduced rate structures. Matter of fact LAX fees will continued rise in its fees to provide an economic-disencentive for airlines that continue to focus on LAX instead of other regional airports.
    Facilities were designed for further future growth opportunity thanks to a modular terminal design.

  • Great road access. Adjacent to 10, 15 & 60 freeways.
    While too far for it to be practical airport for folks in places such as Central/West LA, the airport does still draw people far an wide from both Orange County cities such as Anaheim, Fullerton and Eastern LA cities such as El Monte, Whittier, Alhambra which further add to the immediate 4 million local population base.


    While it might be too early to make ONT a hub just yet, there is no question the market will be there very shortly. Getting in early to lock up facilities and the markets could pay huge dividends in the coming years. Just look at SWA which has continued to quietly foster its growth at ONT and now accounts for near 50% of the airports total boardings while its activity at other SoCal airports has been pretty steady for many years now.
  • From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
     
    SANFan
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    RE: Could JetBlue Use A True Western Hub?

    Sun Nov 05, 2006 7:53 am

    Quoting Laxintl (Reply 46):
    While it might be too early to make ONT a hub just yet, there is no question the market will be there very shortly. Getting in early to lock up facilities and the markets could pay huge dividends in the coming years. Just look at SWA which has continued to quietly foster its growth at ONT and now accounts for near 50% of the airports total boardings while its activity at other SoCal airports has been pretty steady for many years now.

    I certainly don't argue any of the facts in your recent post, LAX, but let's include an additional point or two regarding your last paragraph/conclusion.

    Regarding WN, they already "own" 35% of the traffic at Lindbergh, 59% of the departures at BUR, 12% at LAX and ?? at SNA. In addition:
    >At SNA, WN has 32 flights currently with 4 gates but due to slot restrictions, they cannot really expand there.
    >At BUR, WN has 57 flts and 6 gates meaning they are very close to their "optimum operations" (10 flts per gate is WN's stated "soft" maximum.)
    >At LAX, with 12 gates and currently 118 flights, again, WN has little expansion capability.
    >At SAN, WN has 10 gates (more accurately 9 "usable" gates) with a current schedule of 92 daily departures. Again, pretty close to the max.
    >ONT has 56 WN departures and 8 gates; lots of room to expand.

    In other words, WN has room to expand at ONT but very little wiggle room at any of the other airports where they are already close to being maxed out. So yes, I think there will be expansion (by necessity as much as any of the other reasons you listed) but I believe it will be quite slow. I repeat my thought from an earlier post:

    Quoting SANFan (Reply 30):
    As for ONT, I think its location is just too far out for consideration as a real focus city for anyone. It's a big, beautiful, roomy, modern airport and it's the key to the future of aviation in the LA megalopolis. But there have been many failed attempts at routes from ONT (just off the top of my head, I know HA and NW have pulled out completely) and I just don't think enough pax are willing to use that airport YET.
    In fact, I just checked and B6 started service to ONT in 2001 and currently they (still) fly once a day to JFK; it appears that JetBlue has not seen huge growth in the station so far.

    I would not expect cx to be adding or inaugurating service just to "lock in facilities... early" as you suggested; in today's economic environment, I think the passengers have to come first, and the increased capacity will follow. (This is what we are seeing in MSY and I know it's very frustrating to those aviation folks.)

    It will happen at ONT but only as the other airports continue to bulge at the seams until...

    bb
     
    akjetBlue
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    RE: Could JetBlue Use A True Western Hub?

    Wed Nov 08, 2006 3:08 am

    Anyone if B6 is planning on bringing back the 2nd daily JFKONT flight?
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