kaitak
Posts: 8942
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

Irish 19, Lining Up And Cleared To Roll ...

Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:19 am

Right everyone, welcome to another thrilling instalment of Irish aviation, where we will hope in vain for something positive and exciting to happen. Our destination is Potential and en route, we'll be having compulsory, government required stops at Indifference, Weathervane, Visionless and somewhere else, if the mood takes us ... So get out your Euros and we'll be wheeling the food trolley through the cabin - crisp €20 notes only, please. We have no change, but we just like the colour of the 20s; it goes with the decor.

OK, folks ... What's next on the horizon: well, the Ryanair - Aer Lingus saga is moving at about the same speed as an American daytime soap, but Aer Lingus will be issuing its rebuttal of FR's offer document next week. There is a lot of pressure on EI to make this convincing, because they're not going to get away with just a gratuitous gainsaying of everything FR said. EI is in a particularly difficult situation for a number of reasons:-
1. It's still in the shadow of SIPTU, which will fight job cuts and even if EI gets way with these, the temptation to accept FR's offer will be very attractive to anyone likely to get laid off.
2. Its long haul ambitions are being thwarted by the whole O/S issue and with uncertainty over how the EU/US issue will play out, it makes it incredibly difficult to plan for fleet and route development.
3. FR can wait; ultimately, the EI share price will have to drop below €2.8 and MO'L can pounce again; the EU Competition office are unlikely to stop them.

The environment and its impact on aviation (and many would say - more importantly, vice versa!) has come into the media this week and we, as a country need to think particularly carefully about this. How can we maximise the efficiency of our aviation sector. This actually dovetails with a lot of what we should be doing; if we could condense it down to a key phrase, it would be "make sure our infrastructure allows aircraft to be used as efficiently as possible" - that means longer a longer runway, first of all, but it also means that regulatory issues don't undermine the most efficient use of aircraft.

Then, there's govt policy; I know I've had more than a few pot-shots at this, but clearly, we need to ask one question: what will it take to make the govt express an understanding of the importance of aviation, then (more importantly) do something about it and even more importantly, accept ownership of the overall responsibility to make sure aviation works effectively for us.

These and other questions will probably not be answered conclusively this week, but sit down, relax and enjoy the ride, because we at AirNet Airways just love taking you for a ride ...
 
Poitin
Posts: 2651
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:32 am

RE: Irish 19, Lining Up And Cleared To Roll ...

Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:37 am

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 138):
No, I think it means that the cargo business is DOWN 25% on the previous year, not that that it provides 25% of the revenue. That said, EI hasn't been that focused on cargo in recent years. However, I'd expect them to do well on cargo on the DXB route, particularly with the new timings, which allow much better feed, to/from Asia.

Anyway, here's Thread 19 ... shall we connect here and meet at the next stop ...

Yes, that is what I meant. It is DOWN 25%. They are only doing about E40M a year in cargo if I remember the IPO propectus. Pitiful, should be much higher.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
aerarann
Posts: 361
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2009 5:42 pm

RE: Irish 19, Lining Up And Cleared To Roll ...

Fri Nov 03, 2006 8:26 am

Anyone hear about the RE ATR72 that had an engine fire yesterday (Wednesday 1/11)

I read in the Irish Times that RE254 from KIR diverted to SNN and landed safely.

I cant find it on the net anywhere.
 
kaitak
Posts: 8942
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

RE: Irish 19, Lining Up And Cleared To Roll ...

Fri Nov 03, 2006 3:49 pm

I think that's all there is, Aer Arann. It made a safe landing. I heard about it on Breakingnews.ie. However, I'm sure the AAIU will be investigating it.

As for Aer Lingus and cargo, I think their plan is to grow cargo and they'll certainly do it on long haul routes. As I've said many times before, cargo is the ugly sister, but can be a very profitable one - if the facilities are put in place. Once EI goes further into Asia, I can see it becoming more and more important.

Today (in fact, within the next 15 minutes, if they follow the FR practice), EI is to publish its defence document, in response to FR's offer letter. This is a crucial document for EI and it needs to do a lot more than just criticise FR or gainsay its claims; people will look at both and see who has the stronger vision and could, conceivably on that basis, direct their votes/shares in a particular direction. Making a mess of it could have very serious consequences. No doubt we'll be hearing more this evening ...
 
mccormk
Posts: 42
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2004 9:24 pm

RE: Irish 19, Lining Up And Cleared To Roll ...

Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:46 pm

Kaitak you mentioned the DXB route for cargo. From what i understand EI arent interlining with EK on cargo. So basically freight can get to DXB. But it sits there till a new MAWB is generated and handed over to EK. Rather than an interline agreement were the freight actually has its end destination manifested thru the EI and EK network... With EI not working with EK is a big loss.
 
smokeyrosco
Posts: 1441
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 10:21 am

RE: Irish 19, Lining Up And Cleared To Roll ...

Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:53 pm

Quoting Mccormk (Reply 4):
Kaitak you mentioned the DXB route for cargo. From what i understand EI arent interlining with EK on cargo. So basically freight can get to DXB. But it sits there till a new MAWB is generated and handed over to EK. Rather than an interline agreement were the freight actually has its end destination manifested thru the EI and EK network... With EI not working with EK is a big loss.

Rumor has it thats all about to change, Most of the cargo that goes in and out on th SQ 744 that comes into Dublin uses EI cargo... EI actually used to handle the 744 before they got out of handling other airlines. Anyway I believe that EI is going to use DXB as a mini hub for it's cargo aspirations. It wasn't a great source that I got the rumor from but It makes common sense...

And actually I asked if EI's overall cargo was down 25% and could that be possibly due to the fact that in 2005 they pull cargo from most of it's short haul network?
John Hancock
 
User avatar
ThrottleHold
Posts: 545
Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:00 pm

RE: Irish 19, Lining Up And Cleared To Roll ...

Fri Nov 03, 2006 8:01 pm

Instead of getting rid of the A330's, they should get them converted to freighters! Definitely the business for it out there.
 
Provance
Posts: 147
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 2:25 am

RE: Irish 19, Lining Up And Cleared To Roll ...

Fri Nov 03, 2006 8:04 pm

Is this what we've all been waiting for


http://www.ise.ie/app/announcementDetails.asp?ID=1331498
EI, FR, BD, RE, UA, XL, US,
 
jwmd123
Posts: 405
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 7:12 pm

RE: Irish 19, Lining Up And Cleared To Roll ...

Fri Nov 03, 2006 8:44 pm

I had a quick read of the rebuttle and I think they have set out their stall very well.

One think I picked up on very quickly was the utilisation of capital in 2007 and 2008. This would imply an order for aircraft very soon and new long haul routes to be announced there after.

I also like the way they have used a quote from MOL and also the former chairman of FR.

Hopefully this will keep those EI investors holding their shares. They are back up to 2.88 so going the right direction.
 
al2637
Posts: 227
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:11 am

RE: Irish 19, Lining Up And Cleared To Roll ...

Fri Nov 03, 2006 9:05 pm

Hasn't really convinced me. It's more what they don't say is the problem...

- With regard growing shorthaul out of Dublin faster than FR, this is only due to FR's embargo on new routes because of it's arguments with the DAA. This will change from this year onwards.

- "Passengers value its Low Fares, Way Better proposition and choose Aer Lingus", really, what is the difference? Other than an allocated seat, which they will shortly begin charging for.

- "achieves aircraft utilisation in line with Ryanair’s", I seriously question this. EI do NOT do 25min turns, and on a lot of flights, the block times allow a lot of slack.

- "Significantly undervalues Aer Lingus".. hehehe... makes the government look pretty stupid..
 
kaitak
Posts: 8942
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

RE: Irish 19, Lining Up And Cleared To Roll ...

Fri Nov 03, 2006 9:23 pm

Yes, it appears, based on my comment above, that Aer Lingus people don't get up as early as Ryanair's!

Still, good news that they are focusing on long haul, but a lot of this is dependant on the govt pitchforking the EU into letting new access go ahead.

With regard to your comment, Smokeyrosco, what are the rumours? New routes, or just a new r'ship with EK? I was wondering if EK might add a DUB service with its Skycargo subsidiary, now that they have A310s; alternatively, Qatar or Etihad might do so?

Apparently, at that Future Airport Development conference last week, the Dept of Transport Secretary, Julie O'Neill, hinted at some significant developments on the cargo front, so let's hope something significant comes up. DUB's capacity needs to be raised considerably - initially to about 300,000t and ultimately, to 500,000t. The key point to bear in mind is that, as with pax capacity, if facilities are at breaking point, there is no incentive to go out and market, but if there is a new facility, the DAA (or whoever operates it) will need to go out and hustle and also, one can only hope that this will provide the impetus to extend the current runway.
 
Danny
Posts: 3714
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 3:44 am

RE: Irish 19, Lining Up And Cleared To Roll ...

Fri Nov 03, 2006 9:23 pm

Quoting Al2637 (Reply 9):
- "Passengers value its Low Fares, Way Better proposition and choose Aer Lingus", really, what is the difference? Other than an allocated seat, which they will shortly begin charging for.

I am one of the frequent passengers choosing EI over FR. More legroom, leather seats, possibility to choose seat online, flying to main airports are main points imho. Never heard that they are going to charge for selecting seat.

Quoting Al2637 (Reply 9):
"achieves aircraft utilisation in line with Ryanair's", I seriously question this. EI do NOT do 25min turns, and on a lot of flights, the block times allow a lot of slack.

Don't get fooled. FR schedules are a bit fake. They have longer flying times and shorter stops so that they more often are "on time". On many airports 25 min turnround is just not realistic, like the airports that EI flies to.
 
User avatar
ThrottleHold
Posts: 545
Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:00 pm

RE: Irish 19, Lining Up And Cleared To Roll ...

Fri Nov 03, 2006 9:32 pm

Quoting Al2637 (Reply 9):
"Passengers value its Low Fares, Way Better proposition and choose Aer Lingus", really, what is the difference?

They don't cancel a flight at the last minute and tell you to f*ck off...

Quoting Al2637 (Reply 9):
EI do NOT do 25min turns

Yes they do.
 
al2637
Posts: 227
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:11 am

RE: Irish 19, Lining Up And Cleared To Roll ...

Fri Nov 03, 2006 10:25 pm

I am one of the frequent passengers choosing EI over FR. More legroom, leather seats, possibility to choose seat online, flying to main airports are main points imho. Never heard that they are going to charge for selecting seat.

I've never noticed a leg-room difference, I thought newer FR planes had leather seats? Agree with you about flying to main airports, but this has never really been an issue on IE->UK flights, and now FR are even flying to MAD! Yes, I heard about the seat charging a while ago, but the document issued by EI today is the first official confirmation.

Don't get fooled. FR schedules are a bit fake. They have longer flying times and shorter stops so that they more often are "on time". On many airports 25 min turnround is just not realistic, like the airports that EI flies to.

I'm not saying they shouldn't be doing this, just making the point that I don't see how their utilization can be comparable with FR. They cannot get in and out of LHR/AMS/FRA/CDG etc quicker than FR can at their alternatives.

Last Monday I flew DUB-AMS. Air time was 60mins. Block time was 1hr 35. In addition, the official turn time for the return flight was another 55mins! Again, not that these are bad, just I don't believe they have as high a utilisation as FR.
 
al2637
Posts: 227
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:11 am

RE: Irish 19, Lining Up And Cleared To Roll ...

Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:37 pm

When asked if a bid at a higher price from Ryanair could win the backing of shareholders, Aer Lingus CEO Dermot Mannion said he could not conceive of any circumstances where a bid from Michael O'Leary would succeed.

This really does seem as if EI and it's Snr Managemnt are in an "anything but FR" mode.
 
Danny
Posts: 3714
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 3:44 am

RE: Irish 19, Lining Up And Cleared To Roll ...

Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:41 pm

Quoting Al2637 (Reply 13):
Last Monday I flew DUB-AMS. Air time was 60mins. Block time was 1hr 35. In addition, the official turn time for the return flight was another 55mins! Again, not that these are bad, just I don't believe they have as high a utilisation as FR.

I flew to AMS on EI twice recently and always was "lucky" to land on "Poldberaan" on Monday and take off from "Poldberaan" on Friday. With 25 min taxi it would be hard to make 25 min turnaround.
 
Poitin
Posts: 2651
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:32 am

RE: Irish 19, Lining Up And Cleared To Roll ...

Sat Nov 04, 2006 12:01 am

Quoting Provance (Reply 7):
Is this what we've all been waiting for

http://www.ise.ie/app/announcementDe...31498

Perhaps it is because we are about to have a mid-term election here in Amerika, and the tele is non-stop political commericals, and I am completely inured to them that I found the EI rebuttal lacking. To wit:



    o Aer Lingus has made a dramatic improvement in its return on capital and is now among the best in the industry

    - - - - Sounds like an advert of a new toothpaste

    o Aer Lingus announces a target return of 15% per annum on its fleet investment

    - - - - Anybody can have a target, what did you do?

    o Aer Lingus has a compelling customer proposition and a differentiated strategy

    - - - - Sounds like a toothpaste advert

    o Passengers value its "Low Fares, Way Better" proposition and choose Aer Lingus

    - - - - I should hope so, but they also chose FR

    o Aer Lingus has significant growth prospects on short-haul and on long-haul where it is in prime position for exceptional long-term growth following delivery of Open Skies

    - - - - "If I am elected, I will BLAH BLAH BLAH!"


However, I never worried too much about advertising, which is all this is. I doubt if any of the smart money cares. This was NOT a well reasoned, factual rebuttal. I know the EI numbers from having read their annual report and the IPO prospectus. Right now DM is trying an expansion gamble. He is increasing the number of flights, which could be good or a disaster. Unless he cuts his costs, he can NOT afford to let the load factors drop without an increase in fares. He could be flying EI into the ground. We will know in six months.

I really wish Ard Ri Bertie would drag both DM and MOL into a room and knock some sense into them.

The stock is up slightly to E2.87 on light trading.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
Poitin
Posts: 2651
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:32 am

RE: Irish 19, Lining Up And Cleared To Roll ...

Sat Nov 04, 2006 12:07 am

Quoting Al2637 (Reply 14):
When asked if a bid at a higher price from Ryanair could win the backing of shareholders, Aer Lingus CEO Dermot Mannion said he could not conceive of any circumstances where a bid from Michael O'Leary would succeed.

This really does seem as if EI and it's Snr Managemnt are in an "anything but FR" mode.

It indicates that DM and his staff have been eating too much red meat and they are letting their manhood make their decisions. It is sad and stupid, because they certainly sound like they would perfer to kill EI than let MOL take it.

There well may be "blood on the carpet" and it will be DM holding the knife, not MOL.

Ireland will be the loser.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
teahan
Posts: 4990
Joined: Sun Nov 21, 1999 11:18 pm

RE: Irish 19, Lining Up And Cleared To Roll ...

Sat Nov 04, 2006 12:20 am

It took them two weeks to put together that document?

Grief.
Goodbye SR-LX MD-11 / 6th of March 1991 to the 31st of October 2004
 
Danny
Posts: 3714
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 3:44 am

RE: Irish 19, Lining Up And Cleared To Roll ...

Sat Nov 04, 2006 12:26 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 17):

It indicates that DM and his staff have been eating too much red meat and they are letting their manhood make their decisions. It is sad and stupid, because they certainly sound like they would perfer to kill EI than let MOL take it.

Or it indicates that they believe that MOL will do to EI exactly what he did to Buzz and are determined to defend EI.
 
EIBoston
Posts: 366
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2006 11:18 pm

RE: Irish 19, Lining Up And Cleared To Roll ...

Sat Nov 04, 2006 12:45 am

Going off on a tangent here.

Need to back to Ireland for a short trip in 2 weeks.(from BOS). AA has stopped their direct service last week. Fly direct with EI is $837. Fly to ORK via LHR with AA is $486. I will get to Cork just after 11am and Cork is my final destination anyway . Needless to say I took the AA option. I can handle the LHR thing for $350 spared. Doesn't even look like the EI flights are really full either. I guess they are cashing in on the 'Christmas shoppers'!
 
al2637
Posts: 227
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:11 am

RE: Irish 19, Lining Up And Cleared To Roll ...

Sat Nov 04, 2006 12:48 am

Or it indicates that they believe that MOL will do to EI exactly what he did to Buzz and are determined to defend EI.

The point is, it is NOT his job to defend EI. It is his job to act in the best interest of the shareholders.
 
Danny
Posts: 3714
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 3:44 am

RE: Irish 19, Lining Up And Cleared To Roll ...

Sat Nov 04, 2006 1:06 am

Quoting Al2637 (Reply 21):
Or it indicates that they believe that MOL will do to EI exactly what he did to Buzz and are determined to defend EI.

The point is, it is NOT his job to defend EI. It is his job to act in the best interest of the shareholders.

In his view it is in the best interest of shareholders. They can make more much more money if EI grows that by selling to MOL at 2,80.
 
al2637
Posts: 227
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:11 am

RE: Irish 19, Lining Up And Cleared To Roll ...

Sat Nov 04, 2006 1:16 am

In his view it is in the best interest of shareholders. They can make more much more money if EI grows that by selling to MOL at 2,80

Fair enough, but I'm taking issue with the following statement:

"he could not conceive of any circumstances where a bid from Michael O'Leary would succeed"

Now despite what you think of the €2.80 bid, there is a price at which the shareholders would get the best deal. DM has just ruled this out!
 
Poitin
Posts: 2651
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:32 am

RE: Irish 19, Lining Up And Cleared To Roll ...

Sat Nov 04, 2006 1:23 am

Quoting Al2637 (Reply 21):
Or it indicates that they believe that MOL will do to EI exactly what he did to Buzz and are determined to defend EI.

The point is, it is NOT his job to defend EI. It is his job to act in the best interest of the shareholders.

I think it is important to point out to Danny, Smokeyrosco and some others that when you are in a fight, you must fight with your mind, not your heart. While screaming insults at your enemy as you charge him may seem like the right thing to do, it is far better to bushwack the bastard.

AI2637 is quite right, DM's job is to do what is BEST FOR HIS SHAREHOLDERS. Hopefully, it is done by growing the company, making it profitable and increasing the value of the stock. In this case it may be to sell to MOL. In no case is it DM's job to drive EI into the ground. That would be contrary to his fiduciary duties.

Right now DM is defending his company, and I believe he thinks he is doing what is best for EI, but I am seeing the signs of testicular thinking in his comments, and now actions. I, for one, am not in favor of willy nilly growth of routes and frequencies unless and until there are substantial cost cuts -- which while talked about -- have yet to occur. We have a report a few days ago that over a nine month period, the short haul load factor was 77.1 down 1.4% while the long haul was 80% down 6.7% That, people, is bad. Now he wants to double the frequency of the long haul flights? I am not sure DM has thought that one out carefully. In fact, I suspect it is a "gallant move," much like the Charge of the Light Brigade.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
jwmd123
Posts: 405
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 7:12 pm

RE: Irish 19, Lining Up And Cleared To Roll ...

Sat Nov 04, 2006 1:36 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 24):
We have a report a few days ago that over a nine month period, the short haul load factor was 77.1 down 1.4% while the long haul was 80% down 6.7%

I think we have to take the long haul fall off in context. Don't forget last year they were operating the Florida route. This is what they attribute the fall off to.

On the point of picking into EI's statement, I was glad they used an FR tatic when they said they grew faster our of DUB than EI in 2005. Just go on to the FR website and look at the news from FR against EI. They always talked about (even before more passengers out DUB) how they carried loads more people the EI. They always based this on their whole european network.

On a side note, lastest FR statement shows passenger numbers increasing but load factors down by 2%

http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/news....r=06&month=nov&story=pax-en-031106
 
Danny
Posts: 3714
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 3:44 am

RE: Irish 19, Lining Up And Cleared To Roll ...

Sat Nov 04, 2006 1:54 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 24):
short haul load factor was 77.1 down 1.4%

Ryanair's was down 2%. You could say that EI is winning.  Wink
 
Poitin
Posts: 2651
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:32 am

RE: Irish 19, Lining Up And Cleared To Roll ...

Sat Nov 04, 2006 2:04 am

Quoting JWMD123 (Reply 25):
think we have to take the long haul fall off in context. Don't forget last year they were operating the Florida route. This is what they attribute the fall off to.

Minor detail but load factor is the per centage of seats in a flight that have passengers in it. If you cancel a flight, then it has no impact on load factor -- the flight didn't go anywhere.

Now unless they were putting a 125% load factors into the Florida flights they would have no impact on today's averages. Statistical impossibility.

On the other hand, if you double the flights per day you will undoubtedly decrease load factors unless you are leaving dozens of people at the gate with just one flight, because your are spreading the available passengers over two flights instead of one.

Quoting JWMD123 (Reply 25):
On the point of picking into EI's statement, I was glad they used an FR tatic when they said they grew faster our of DUB than EI in 2005. J

Let's see if I have two flights a day and increase it by one to three, I have a 50% increase. But if I have ten flights a day and increase it by 3 I have only a 30% increase even though the increase is 300 % greater than the first case.

There is a old book called "How to lie with Statistics" by Darrell Huff. You should read it.
http://www.amazon.com/How-Lie-Statistics-Darrell-Huff/dp/0393310728
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
Poitin
Posts: 2651
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:32 am

RE: Irish 19, Lining Up And Cleared To Roll ...

Sat Nov 04, 2006 2:07 am

Quoting Danny (Reply 26):
Ryanair's was down 2%. You could say that EI is winning. Wink

Yeap, EI is winning. Right up to the time EI closes the doors.

EI makes money with load factors greater than about 80%, whereas FR is doing it in the range of 60%.

Reminds me about the sales man who lost money on every deal he made, but stayed in business because of the high volume he had.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
smokeyrosco
Posts: 1441
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 10:21 am

RE: Irish 19, Lining Up And Cleared To Roll ...

Sat Nov 04, 2006 3:07 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 24):
I think it is important to point out to Danny, Smokeyrosco and some others that when you are in a fight, you must fight with your mind, not your heart. While screaming insults at your enemy as you charge him may seem like the right thing to do, it is far better to bushwack the bastard.

I'm not in a fight, nore am I thinking whats in my heart, if that where the case I'd be defending SNN and probably DUB but I never have. I also think EI made a large mistake on it's Cargo end of things.

I'm telling you as it is but not by reading some report or looking at statistics but because i have read them and i also have a feel for the company. I have not insulted anyone I've only voiced my frustration at what I believe to be ignorance.

Quoting Poitin (Reply 24):
Right now DM is defending his company,

um from a hostile takeover? shouldn't that be what any CEO should do in a case like this?

Quoting Poitin (Reply 24):
but I am seeing the signs of testicular thinking in his comments, and now actions.

Much like you usually see from MOL as you pointed out yourself with his embargo at DUB as an example.

DM was on the Matt Cooper show tonight and I caught the end of it as i was on my way home from work, the main points he laid out,

costs have to be cut and the unions have to be involved

he has the support of the workforce

Not ruling in or out Job cuts

And he's not going to abandon Shannon (which I believe is a mistake)

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 10):
New routes, or just a new r'ship with EK?

Just new relationships not necessarily with or without EK but they want to be able to have 4 full 330 belly's a week going to DXB with cargo bound for all over Asia. I'm assuming it's go get a foot hold in the cargo market before they enter certain passenger markets but i could be wrong.
John Hancock
 
User avatar
shamrock350
Posts: 4657
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 12:38 am

RE: Irish 19, Lining Up And Cleared To Roll ...

Sat Nov 04, 2006 3:39 am

Quoting Al2637 (Reply 9):
which they will shortly begin charging for.

Where does it say this? I think it would be a bad idea, as Aer Lingus fares are higher than Ryanairs so why bother paying €20 while you could pay €10 for a similar service. EI must keep its "low fares way better offering" and the assigned seating and seat selection is a part of that "better offering".
 
Poitin
Posts: 2651
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:32 am

RE: Irish 19, Lining Up And Cleared To Roll ...

Sat Nov 04, 2006 4:36 am

Quoting Smokeyrosco (Reply 29):
'm not in a fight, nore am I thinking whats in my heart,

No, but DM is, and unfortunately he is not using his brain to the extent he should. I really question pumping up the frequency of flights without reducing costs.

Quoting Smokeyrosco (Reply 29):
'm telling you as it is but not by reading some report or looking at statistics but because i have read them and i also have a feel for the company

There is are reason why they have all those reports. I read them on a daily basis from about 20 companies I am involved in. Perhaps you have a feel for the company, but the brutal facts of what those reports say is what matters. I have read all the last five years of annual reports for EI and I think WW had it right. IF he had been able to cut costs at EI when he wanted, we would have a healthy EI today, and perhaps DM would be chasing FR instead.

Quoting Smokeyrosco (Reply 29):
I have not insulted anyone I've only voiced my frustration at what I believe to be ignorance.

You have never insulted me for sure. You have always been a gentleman. You also have a right to feel what you feel, and say what you say, and believe what you believe. I do the same. It does not mean that one or the other of us is right or wrong. I respect what you say, but I see things in a different view. It good to have this give and take because it makes us all think a little clearer about it.

I have found input from you, Danny and Pilot21 all worthwhile. All of you have had an impact on my thinking at one time or another and each of you have caught me in a mistake of some sort. I am not afraid of being wrong, but I am afraid of not know it. I suspect some of you think I am dead wrong, and perhaps I actually am. However, I do not see evidence of it yet. When I do, I will admit it.

So, if you disagree with me and have some evidence to show, then please say something. That is what this forum is about -- the exchange of ideas and information.

Quoting Smokeyrosco (Reply 29):
um from a hostile takeover? shouldn't that be what any CEO should do in a case like this?

Perhaps yielding before the company is destroyed would be wiser.

Quoting Smokeyrosco (Reply 29):
but I am seeing the signs of testicular thinking in his comments, and now actions.

Much like you usually see from MOL as you pointed out yourself with his embargo at DUB as an example.

Yes indeed. I long ago said MOL would have been wiser to start MyWay instead. But no, he had to take over EI. I consider that testicular, but at least he had a plan. It may have failed -- I don't know if it has yet -- but I am sure he has a plan B which is something along going for the jugular.

Quoting Smokeyrosco (Reply 29):
And he's not going to abandon Shannon (which I believe is a mistake)

Now this I find interesting. Why? I am curious about your thinking. Why is not abandoning Shannon a mistake. I can see it as a hub and cargo transit point.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
kaitak
Posts: 8942
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

RE: Irish 19, Lining Up And Cleared To Roll ...

Sat Nov 04, 2006 4:52 am

I'm glad EI made a spirited defence of its cause. It's important that it supports its own as well; EI employees need good morale at this time and it's important that its leadership aren't seen to be mere civil servants, but people with vision - and a little more tact.

However, I think the most important thing that needs to happen now is for the govt to push like hell for a special agreement on increased US access for EI. Whatever it takes. EI says long haul is where its future lies; make it happen. EI's frustration on this is clear; in announcing the new frequency additions, it's pretty much saying "yeah, great, we're adding frequencies on existing routes, but we'd rather be adding new routes". That can still happen, but it needs to happen quickly. If it takes pressure from the very top (i.e. the Taoiseach, then that's what needs to happen; as I'm sure I've said before, there are issues related to the O/S issue and the Commission's refusal to allow the change in regulations - for example, to do with Competition Law). My hope would be that the govt would threaten that, as a result of the Commission's intransigence and unreasonableness, it has effectively sunk any prospect of the new Constitution being approved, because the govt could never recommend acceptance of a commission, when the Commission was acting with breathtaking arrogance in denying Ireland the ability to compete. That would hopefully encourage the EU to "persuade" the Transport Commissioner to take a more reasonable line.

I still have misgivings on short haul; I hope it works for them and while I disagree that EI and FR have similar service, I think Poitin has a strong point when he says that the difference in breakeven LFs is a key factor. However, hopefully with cost cuts, EI's competitiveness can be improved - and hopefully, FR's shareholding, combined with the fact that it has fatter prey to chase (AZ, for example) will persuade FR not to go for the jugular.
 
smokeyrosco
Posts: 1441
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 10:21 am

RE: Irish 19, Lining Up And Cleared To Roll ...

Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:09 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 31):
Now this I find interesting. Why? I am curious about your thinking. Why is not abandoning Shannon a mistake. I can see it as a hub and cargo transit point.

I don't mean for him to completely abandon SNN but I do think all ground handling cleaning and catering in SNN (I'm not sure if EI still does cleaning and catering in SNN) should be outsourced because I know too much about people getting paid more then i do to do two flights a day and visit the pub in between. I also believe that with proper links with lets say RE, EI could really become a hell of a lot more profitable. I think SNN service could easily be cut by about 70% and assuming that 70% is added to DUB and SNN operates at 30% dedicated to SNN noone would ever notice (except for fellow a.netters).

As for cargo your too far form everything. As per Kiataks wonderful rants DUB should be given the opportunity to become a cargo hub with direct links to the M50 and another couple of lanes and the removal of the toll barriers it's easier to get from DUB to anywhere in Ireland then it is from SNN.
John Hancock
 
smokeyrosco
Posts: 1441
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 10:21 am

RE: Irish 19, Lining Up And Cleared To Roll ...

Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:17 am

Another point I want to make (again... I hate repeating myself) EI has only really been in the business of making money for a few weeks, FR has been there 20 years. I just hope when humble pie comes out in a few years we'll all still be here to enjoy it together which ever way it goes.

further to the media blitz that DM and EI have put on today (and probably in tomorrows papers also), here's the RTE interview.

http://dynamic.rte.ie/av/2188598.smil (need realplayer)
John Hancock
 
Poitin
Posts: 2651
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:32 am

RE: Irish 19, Lining Up And Cleared To Roll ...

Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:18 am

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 32):
EI's frustration on this is clear; in announcing the new frequency additions, it's pretty much saying "yeah, great, we're adding frequencies on existing routes, but we'd rather be adding new routes". That can still happen, but it needs to happen quickly. If it takes pressure from the very top

They need NEW routes not lower load factors on existing routes.

While overly simplified, this is the basics of EI's cash flow: Given a hard to raise average ticket price because of existing competition, and hard to lower costs because of the interference of SIPTU, EI has gotten into the situation that to make any money, they must operated their flights at fairly high load factors -- about 73% according to my numbers.

Given that there are just so many people per day wanting to go from point A to point B, adding extra flights to routes that haven't a proven surplus of customers is suicidal unless you can reduce costs to the point where your new load factors make money. For example FR need a load factor of about 60% or perhaps less to make money.

On the other hand, by opening new routes you are tapping into a new pool of people looking to go from point C to point D. There you have a chance of loading up your plane to the required load factors. That makes sense.

Also, if you can reduce costs, then putting a second flight on the same route MIGHT make sense, if you can keep the overall load factor above the break even point.

We will see what DM's stategy leads to in a few months when we see the first public company annual report from EI.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
kaitak
Posts: 8942
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

RE: Irish 19, Lining Up And Cleared To Roll ...

Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:32 am

DM's strategy is pretty hamstrung at the moment; really, all he can do is work with what he has. We can at least learn a lesson from what's happening now, in that where (as in Europe) there is liberalisation, there is growth; where there are stupid, outdated regulations enforced by civil servants on a power craze, there is stultification and loss of potential.

I know I do rant about things (yes, glad you agreed with some of them, Smokeyrosco, but I know they are rants), but aviation's ability to contribute to our growth means that we need NO regulatory or infrastructural limits on our growth; we know now - and have known for many years - that there are aircraft out there - 777s, A340s and 744Fs among them - which will work for us if we provide the facilities for them to do so. OK, I'm going "off on one" again, but I still think that particular message hasn't hit home at government level. I hear rumours about "great things happening on cargo"; where is it? What has to happen? Why does every bloody thing have to happen on a geological timescale; make things happen.
 
al2637
Posts: 227
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:11 am

RE: Irish 19, Lining Up And Cleared To Roll ...

Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:35 am

"um from a hostile takeover? shouldn't that be what any CEO should do in a case like this?"

Why is it hostile? Because DM and the board don't like it?


"And he's not going to abandon Shannon (which I believe is a mistake)"

I once heard WW say that SNN-JFK and BOS were commercially viable, and he would keep them regardless of the stopover. He also said ORK-JFK would work. The SNN and ORK flights would be operated by JFK/BOS based aircraft. i.e. they'd operate flights, but wouldn't base the crew or aircraft in either ORK or SNN

"Where does it say this?"

from the document: "In 2007, it will launch additional revenue generating initiatives, such as baggage charges, advanced seat selection and dynamic packaging of hotels, car hire and travel insurance."

I do think they are correct to increase frequencies. Although it is potentially going to lower the load factors or yields, you have to weigh it up against the increased capacity being added to the market by the US carriers. So for example if EI add 20% capacity, that is not necessarily going to have a -20% impact on EIs loads/yields, it will be spread across all carriers, so EI will gain market share. Further, we have to remember that EI actually have quite high fixed costs. Adding capacity reduces these costs proportionality, and thus should lower the breakeven load factor.
 
smokeyrosco
Posts: 1441
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 10:21 am

RE: Irish 19, Lining Up And Cleared To Roll ...

Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:41 am

Quoting Al2637 (Reply 37):
Why is it hostile? Because DM and the board don't like it?

Because as per google:

Definitions of HOSTILE TAKEOVER on the Web:

A takeover that occurs without the approval of the target corporation's board of directors.
www.florida-incorporation.com/glossary.html

When one company tries to buy a company out, against their wishes.
www.stocks-and-shares.adopto-finance.com/glossary.html

occurs when a company attempts to buy out another whether they like it or not. A hostile takeover can occur only through publicly traded shares, as it requires the acquirer to bypass the board of directors and purchase the shares from other sources. This is difficult unless the shares of the target company are widely available and easily purchased (ie, they have high liquidity). A hostile takeover may presage a corporate raid.
www.ventureline.com/glossary_H.asp

a takeover that is resisted by the management of the target company
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
John Hancock
 
Poitin
Posts: 2651
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:32 am

RE: Irish 19, Lining Up And Cleared To Roll ...

Sat Nov 04, 2006 7:20 am

Quoting Smokeyrosco (Reply 33):
I don't mean for him to completely abandon SNN but I do think all ground handling cleaning and catering in SNN (I'm not sure if EI still does cleaning and catering in SNN) should be outsourced because I know too much about people getting paid more then i do to do two flights a day and visit the pub in between

Oh, I see your point. Actually, I see SNN as being a nice hub for both TA passengers and cargo that does NOT O/D in Ireland. That is fly into SNN and then short haul somewhere else into Europe. Sort of a mini LHR. The cargo would be the same, consolidation. Several smaller freighters come in from several European cities each loaded with cargo meant for all over the USA. The cargo is sorted and all that destined for a particular city goes on one plane and off it goes. This is exactly the way truck freight works. IT is also done in Anchorage, which has become one of the largest cargo handlers in the world. Obvious anything meant for Dublin should still go to DUB. But I see SNN as a good substitute for the missing second runway at DUB by shifting some of the non-O/D traffic to SNN.

Quoting Smokeyrosco (Reply 33):
. I also believe that with proper links with lets say RE, EI could really become a hell of a lot more profitable. I think SNN service could easily be cut by about 70% and assuming that 70% is added to DUB and SNN operates at 30% dedicated to SNN noone would ever notice (except for fellow a.netters).

If you are talking about traffic that goes first to SNN and then DUB, I think it should ALL be eliminated. It is a total waste. On the other hand, given DUB is limited to one runway, not to mention one of the worst terminals in Europe, then perhaps we should push some NON-Irish O/D traffic through SNN. Let them fly from France to SNN and then go on to America on EI. However, these would not be DUB SNN BOS flights. Strictly one stop in Ireland. Just some of them use SNN if the pax don't need to be in DUB.

Perhaps some day we will have a proper airport at DUB, I am just suggesting a possible work around.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
pilot21
Posts: 983
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 1999 8:28 am

RE: Irish 19, Lining Up And Cleared To Roll ...

Sat Nov 04, 2006 7:42 am

Quoting EIBoston (Reply 20):
Going off on a tangent here.

I was thinking about this over the past few days, and am at a loss to understand why AA couldn't make the BOS-SNN route work. From next yr EI will have 2 daily flights to BOS and 2 to ORD, and both are A330 size aircraft. This yr AA couldn't fill a B757 to make money on the route? (what are they doing wrong, or what is EI doing right? are costs that different?)
I am just surprised AA pulled it given that it wouldn't have taken much to add DUB to the routing if they felt the SNN bit wasn't working fully, but I'm shocked if they felt BOS couldn't supply the traffic when ORD will have 2 A330's and 1 B767 daily from next summer.

Quoting Al2637 (Reply 13):
I've never noticed a leg-room difference, I thought newer FR planes had leather seats?

Yeah FR is tight in the legroom dept. and those awful yellow headrest covers! I'm sure MOL dreamt them up so none of the staff would turn up with a hangover on the morning flights.

Well after 2 days in Ldn and my first experience on FR in close to 10yrs, I'll stick with EI thank you very much. I'll admit MOL did exactly what he said on the tin, I got from A to B safely and without hassle, but the pitch battle at the gate was a bit much. I laugh when I hear MOL refer to DUB as the black hole of Calcutta, well looking at the boarding area close to Pier D on Thursday morning, it's his flights that supply the extras to the scene!
The interesting bit though occurred this afternoon when a meeting ran late and I rang FR to change to a later flight. The only flight with a seat left on it, 21.15pm from STN and the change fee £45 plus the difference in fare = £190 + taxes. (And I didn't pay 99p for the flights in the first place I can assure you). So I hung up and rang EI, 1 way from LHR on the 18.45, £172 including taxes, thank you very much EI. So while MOL can bring cheap fares to Europe, he'll screw you on the changes.
Aircraft I've flown: A300/A310/A320/A321/A330/A340/B727/B732/B733/B734/B735/B738/B741/B742/B744/DC10/MD80/IL62/Bae146/AR
 
philb
Posts: 2645
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 5:53 am

RE: Irish 19, Lining Up And Cleared To Roll ...

Sat Nov 04, 2006 7:33 pm

Quoting Smokeyrosco (Reply 33):
I think SNN service could easily be cut by about 70% and assuming that 70% is added to DUB and SNN operates at 30% dedicated to SNN noone would ever notice (except for fellow a.netters).

Typical Dublincentric comment. This country is going the way of England in the 1970s - nothing outside the capital is important.

I can't even fly Aer Lingus from Shannon to Manchester. Well I can, by flying to Heathrow and then on BA to Manchester on one ticket. On Ryanair I can do the round trip depending on date of flight and time of booking for around €42. The cheapest offered by BA (an enquiry on the Aer Lingus web site directs you to BA) is around £Sterling 625.

My experience on Aer Lingus on the Atlantic in 2005 was mediocre compared to Virgin, Northwest and even BA.

There is something wrong with Aer Lingus. Willie didn't fix it, the current crowd aren't doing better and there's no saying O'Leary will, but ignoring the west and southwest of the country and not trying to generate traffic from the region shows lack of foresight and Dublincentricity.
 
pilot21
Posts: 983
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 1999 8:28 am

RE: Irish 19, Lining Up And Cleared To Roll ...

Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:25 pm

Funny comment in this mornings Irish Times from a trade union source when asked to predict the ESOT ballot in relation to EI take over by FR.

The Esot members are likely to resoundingly reject the Ryanair bid in their ballot. One senior trade union source commented last night: "We would expect the kind of majorities Kim Jong-Il gets in North Korea".
Aircraft I've flown: A300/A310/A320/A321/A330/A340/B727/B732/B733/B734/B735/B738/B741/B742/B744/DC10/MD80/IL62/Bae146/AR
 
al2637
Posts: 227
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:11 am

RE: Irish 19, Lining Up And Cleared To Roll ...

Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:43 pm

Article from todays Irish Times... not going to post it all, but the main points:

"Let's be unequivocal, I cannot conceive of circumstances in which the Ryanair takeover will be approved by the Aer Lingus board," said Mr Mannion.

This reply was offered after several questioners asked about what would be regarded as an "acceptable offer" from Ryanair.

Mr Mannion said he believed his position was credible in relation to value for shareholders.

"We are very well aware of our fiduciary responsibilities to shareholders. Our value proposition is we can grow shareholder value more as an independent entity than can be the case if Aer Lingus is merged in some way with Ryanair".

When asked what might be the reaction if Ryanair returned with an offer of €4.50, Mr Mannion seemed to suggest that this would not change his view.

"I will repeat what I said. I cannot conceive of circumstances where the Ryanair takeover will be successful".


This really is worrying. The job of DM and the board is to get the best value for their shareholders. I just don't understand how they can say that ANY offer would be unacceptable!!!!



About the claim that the bid undervalues EI:

However, Mr Sharman and Mr Mannion endured sustained questioning about how this could be when the company was floated so recently at €2.20 a share and Ryanair was now offering €2.80 a share.

Mr Sharman said the IPO transaction was entirely different from a takeover transaction, as proposed by Ryanair.

"What you got here is an apple and an orange. It's very rare that the apple and the orange are on the table at the same time. The apple, the flotation, was providing capital for this company to invest in new aircraft and to top up the pension scheme. That transaction, or that apple, was of a company coming to market.


This continued with the apples and oranges analogy. Seems like total BS to me..

Some talk about the expansion announced during the week, then this:
"Mr Mannion denied that long-haul routes were suffering, although he conceded that New York was proving challenging at present. "The prognosis though is still very good," he said."

Is there a problem with New York we don't know about? They have just increased capacity :S
 
pilot21
Posts: 983
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 1999 8:28 am

RE: Irish 19, Lining Up And Cleared To Roll ...

Sat Nov 04, 2006 9:15 pm

Quoting Al2637 (Reply 43):
Mr Mannion denied that long-haul routes were suffering, although he conceded that New York was proving challenging at present. "The prognosis though is still very good," he said."

There is a lot of capacity on that route at the moment, 2 CO B757's, 1 DL B767 and 3 EI A330's fly to the New York area everyday from DUB/SNN, so there will be times when it is tough to fill the seats. However, this is the time when DM should be saying "but we expect it to improve as we upgrade our long-haul product to the be the best on that route"

DL doesn't have a C class on their flights available for sale, and CO's is ok, but it is on a B757. If EI just improved things, they would get the majority of the Business traffic on that route (and with 2 daily nonstops from DUB next yr in the am and pm, it is perfect to attract that high paying sector).
Then at least you could fill the back with $100 oneway flights and pay for the flight and everything up front is pure profit
At the moment they just aren't providing value for money to the people who want it, and they aren't standing out from the crowd.
Aircraft I've flown: A300/A310/A320/A321/A330/A340/B727/B732/B733/B734/B735/B738/B741/B742/B744/DC10/MD80/IL62/Bae146/AR
 
kaitak
Posts: 8942
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

RE: Irish 19, Lining Up And Cleared To Roll ...

Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:12 pm

Quoting Pilot21 (Reply 44):
However, this is the time when DM should be saying "but we expect it to improve as we upgrade our long-haul product to the be the best on that route"

I agree completely, but does EI have the motivation to be the best; it has very good people and to anyone who says "there's not much difference between EI and FR on short haul", I just say "fly with them both and try"; however, they need more. The time has come to decide what kind of product they want to be; I believe that the best way is to move towards a long haul low cost approach, although on a "toe dipping" basis at first. The A330 will be the product, albeit not the ideal one, but there is still a lot of room to innovate. My perception of EI on long haul is one of being "staid" and in need of a good dusting down; it's well behind the curve in terms of product development - by ten years or more, but I worry that with the cutbacks announced by DM recently, t/a routes might be included.

This winter, two of the 330s will be in for base checks and this would be the ideal juncture to upgrade them with new products - i.e. decent IFE.

The airline needs to be hungrier and more aggressive; there still isn't the fire in the belly or the willingness to take risks. No one should ever be able to say that EI has a comparable standard of service to AA, DL, NW or any of the large US carriers; if they can, that's EI's fault and it needs to be challenged head on. And remember, apart from IFE, most of this can be done at relatively little cost. People are the key. Remember that although EI has gone to the low cost model on s/h routes, it doesn't feel "low cost"; it has a quality feel to it and I don't see why that can't be replicated on long haul routes.

However, as I keep saying, the key role here lies with one (arguably two?) of the minority shareholders; one - the govt - needs to move Heaven and Earth to get this stopover nonsense out of the way by next Summer; the one - Ryanair - needs to ensure that EI can avail of a big purchase discount on its new long haul aircraft purchase.
 
Poitin
Posts: 2651
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:32 am

RE: Irish 19, Lining Up And Cleared To Roll ...

Sun Nov 05, 2006 12:03 am

Quoting Philb (Reply 41):
There is something wrong with Aer Lingus. Willie didn't fix it, the current crowd aren't doing better and there's no saying O'Leary will, but ignoring the west and southwest of the country and not trying to generate traffic from the region shows lack of foresight and Dublincentricity.

I have relatives in Co Meath who think of New York City as a suburb of Dublin. Me I live (when in Ireland) as about as far to the west side of the country as you can get near Cahircirveen, Co Kerry, so I am biased to your thinking.

Quoting Al2637 (Reply 43):
"We are very well aware of our fiduciary responsibilities to shareholders. Our value proposition is we can grow shareholder value more as an independent entity than can be the case if Aer Lingus is merged in some way with Ryanair".

When asked what might be the reaction if Ryanair returned with an offer of €4.50, Mr Mannion seemed to suggest that this would not change his view.

"I will repeat what I said. I cannot conceive of circumstances where the Ryanair takeover will be successful".

Testicular thinking at its worst. DM will run EI into the ground if he keeps this up.

Quoting Pilot21 (Reply 44):
There is a lot of capacity on that route at the moment, 2 CO B757's, 1 DL B767 and 3 EI A330's fly to the New York area everyday from DUB/SNN, so there will be times when it is tough to fill the seats. However, this is the time when DM should be saying "but we expect it to improve as we upgrade our long-haul product to the be the best on that route"



Quoting Pilot21 (Reply 44):
There is a lot of capacity on that route at the moment, 2 CO B757's, 1 DL B767 and 3 EI A330's fly to the New York area everyday from DUB/SNN, so there will be times when it is tough to fill the seats. However, this is the time when DM should be saying "but we expect it to improve as we upgrade our long-haul product to the be the best on that route"

Sounds to me that they have a flight too many already: Looking at several possible trips on EI from JFK to DUB there is often a low cost fare, which is always flight EI 112 Makes me wonder if it is a low load factor flight.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
Poitin
Posts: 2651
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 6:32 am

RE: Irish 19, Lining Up And Cleared To Roll ...

Sun Nov 05, 2006 12:11 am

I just came across this article in Flight Global. It is an interesting read, given everyone in Dublin, at least, thinks that FR is the real enemy of EI.


    US carriers in major transatlantic push: Airline Business report
    By David Field

    A rush to grab a slice of the transatlantic revenue pie is bringing growth-hungry US carriers into new territory, potentially pitting alliance partners against each other.


http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...tlantic+push+Airline+Business.html
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
philb
Posts: 2645
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 5:53 am

RE: Irish 19, Lining Up And Cleared To Roll ...

Sun Nov 05, 2006 12:12 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 46):
Sounds to me that they have a flight too many already: Looking at several possible trips on EI from JFK to DUB there is often a low cost fare, which is always flight EI 112 Makes me wonder if it is a low load factor flight.

Flew on the 112 in May 2005 - it was certainly full that day.
 
User avatar
ThrottleHold
Posts: 545
Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:00 pm

RE: Irish 19, Lining Up And Cleared To Roll ...

Sun Nov 05, 2006 2:03 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 27):
There is a old book called "How to lie with Statistics" by Darrell Huff. You should read it

MOL's copy must be well read.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 11725Flyer, a380787, AAIL86, Aesma, airbazar, Bing [Bot], Boeing778X, cathay747, hkcanadaexpat, iyerhari, kalvado, mercure1, nikeson13, OA412, smi0006, wolbo and 398 guests