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PanAm_DC10
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Aeroflot May Lose 787 Delivery Slots

Fri Nov 03, 2006 9:07 pm

At least according to the following report;

Aeroflot May Lose Boeing 787 Delivery Slots on Lack of Decision

By Lyubov Pronina

Nov. 3 (Bloomberg) -- OAO Aeroflot, eastern Europe's largest carrier, said it may lose production slots for 22 Boeing Co. 787 planes because Russia's government has yet to approve a proposed order, which may lead to higher prices and longer delivery times.

''The original conditions on the contract have expired,'' Aeroflot Deputy Chief Executive Officer Lev Koshlyakov said in a telephone interview today. ''We will now be looking for other alternatives. We remain in contact with Boeing.''

Russian billionaire Alexander Lebedev, the owner of 30 percent of Aeroflot, signed an agreement with Boeing to reserve production slots for the 787 model because the Aeroflot board hadn't confirmed an order. The reservation agreement, signed with Lebedev's National Reserve Corp. holding company on behalf of Aeroflot, expired Nov. 1.


http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...conews&tkr=EAD:FP&sid=a0s1ioE9DVuU

It just keeps going...  Smile

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scouseflyer
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RE: Aeroflot May Lose 787 Delivery Slots

Fri Nov 03, 2006 9:17 pm

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter):
It just keeps going...

This is ridiculous..... They were having a joke phone in on the radio yesterday about headlines in 2018 :

Aeroflot to choose soon between 787 and A350!
 
Thorben
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RE: Aeroflot May Lose 787 Delivery Slots

Fri Nov 03, 2006 10:25 pm

Considering the way EADS ans Russia are getting tied up with one another - they shouldn't buy any 787s. But comrade Putin will have the last word in this dispute, anyway.
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NYC777
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RE: Aeroflot May Lose 787 Delivery Slots

Fri Nov 03, 2006 10:28 pm

Quite a few take aways from this no news news:

1) The Russian Govt hates SU - they're trully screwing with the airlines' future for the sake of politics.
2) EU - don't let the Russian govt have a decision making stake in eADS, unless you want to see it out of business within a year or two.
3) To French and German govts - see what govt interference does to your competitiveness. If you want Airbus and EADS to be a true profit machine that competes effectively in the free market, cut the umbilical cord and let EADS sink and swim on its own. Don't turn into a European jobs program or else it (EADS) will to be a pawn of the politicians and in the end EADS gets hurt.

SU order for airplanes has be come a laugh. For Boeing it's not too much of a worry. There is a lot of demand for those delivery slots that they will have no trouble filling them. SU will be the big loser out of all this. It would be nice to have a carrier like SU commit to the 787 but not at this rate.
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JayinKitsap
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RE: Aeroflot May Lose 787 Delivery Slots

Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:44 pm

Well once Russia has control of EADS a typical occurance will be:
Airline: I need the following parts for inventory.
Airbus: I won't ship until you place that order for A320's.

They are doing this game with gas often, why not on everything else.

Well, by the time SU has decided and the Russian govt concurs with placing the order the A350 will have its EIS already.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Aeroflot May Lose 787 Delivery Slots

Fri Nov 03, 2006 11:53 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 2):
Considering the way EADS ans Russia are getting tied up with one another - they shouldn't buy any 787s. But comrade Putin will have the last word in this dispute, anyway.

There are a lot of engineers in Russia who are designing part of the B787 also...
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Leskova
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RE: Aeroflot May Lose 787 Delivery Slots

Sat Nov 04, 2006 1:35 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 2):
Considering the way EADS ans Russia are getting tied up with one another - they shouldn't buy any 787s. But comrade Putin will have the last word in this dispute, anyway.

Oh lord... SU, just like any other airline, should buy what's right for them - nothing, and that's absolutely nothing, else.

But their decision process is turning into even more of a laughing number than it already had - hard to believe, but true. Then again - Lebedev simply signing for the planes though the board had not agreed was somewhat unorthodox from the get-go anyhow...

Quoting JayinKitsap (Reply 4):
Well once Russia has control of EADS a typical occurance will be:

...  Yeah sure ...
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NYC777
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RE: Aeroflot May Lose 787 Delivery Slots

Sat Nov 04, 2006 1:45 am

Quoting Leskova (Reply 6):
Lebedev simply signing for the planes though the board had not agreed was somewhat unorthodox from the get-go anyhow...

Well he took a bet and lost. More impetus for the Russian people to vote out the idiots running the govt.
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RE: Aeroflot May Lose 787 Delivery Slots

Sat Nov 04, 2006 1:49 am

Quoting Leskova (Reply 6):
But their decision process is turning into even more of a laughing number than it already had - hard to believe, but true. Then again - Lebedev simply signing for the planes though the board had not agreed was somewhat unorthodox from the get-go anyhow...

To me, Lebedev's decision to order 787s seems like a no-brainer. That is, if SU did take them, then he gets to pawn them off on Aeroflot, knowing that he's protected his investment in that airline.

If Aeroflot didn't take them, then he could re-lease them.
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Leskova
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RE: Aeroflot May Lose 787 Delivery Slots

Sat Nov 04, 2006 1:53 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 8):
If Aeroflot didn't take them, then he could re-lease them.

Well... seems like this 'no-brainer' just backfired on him nonetheless...
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sk736
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RE: Aeroflot May Lose 787 Delivery Slots

Sat Nov 04, 2006 6:42 am

Quoting JayinKitsap (Reply 4):
Well once Russia has control of EADS a typical occurance will be:
Airline: I need the following parts for inventory.
Airbus: I won't ship until you place that order for A320's.

Sounds good to me!
 
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RE: Aeroflot May Lose 787 Delivery Slots

Sat Nov 04, 2006 9:21 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 2):
Considering the way EADS ans Russia are getting tied up with one another - they shouldn't buy any 787s. But comrade Putin will have the last word in this dispute, anyway.

Comrade Putin wants EADS. Make NO mistake about that either.  alert 
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Ken777
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RE: Aeroflot May Lose 787 Delivery Slots

Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:11 am

I think that Boeing will be nice to SU for a brief period After that the slots can be used to generate sales of more than 22 planes so SU doesn't have that much more time left. Wouldn't be surprised to find out that Boeing has been talking with other carriers about "possible" slots being opened up.

What delivery slots does SU have tied up anyway?
 
kaitak
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RE: Aeroflot May Lose 787 Delivery Slots

Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:02 am

I guess the question that comes to my mind is, why does Boeing assign production slots before all the formalities are completed, because this obviously creates a danger that the contract will fail. When Air India ordered 787s (and we know how long the Indian govt took to approve that!), no delivery slots were assigned until the govt had authorised it.

Did Aeroflot actually have specific dates for receipt of these aircraft?

Given the success of the 787, I would imagine that they will have little problem in assigning these to other carriers. Indeed, I often wonder how long it actually takes between an announcement like this "hitting the wires" and some airline CEO phoning Boeing to say "can we take those production slots?"!
 
NW727251ADV
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RE: Aeroflot May Lose 787 Delivery Slots

Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:05 am

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter):
OAO Aeroflot, eastern Europe's largest carrier

I'm sorry. Aeroflot is considered an "Eastern European" carrier???
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RE: Aeroflot May Lose 787 Delivery Slots

Sun Nov 05, 2006 6:11 am

Quoting NW727251ADV (Reply 14):
I'm sorry. Aeroflot is considered an "Eastern European" carrier???

Aeroflot is based in Moscow. Moscow is in Eastern Europe. ergo, Aeroflot is Eastern European. They are, after all, west of the Urals.
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zvezda
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RE: Aeroflot May Lose 787 Delivery Slots

Sun Nov 05, 2006 6:41 am

The geographic center of Europe is in Lithuania. Moscow is almost exactly due east of Vilnius. How could Moscow be anywhere other than eastern Europe? Western Eurasia???

Any thoughts on who might pick up the slots? SQ?

[Edited 2006-11-04 22:50:35]
 
Leskova
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RE: Aeroflot May Lose 787 Delivery Slots

Sun Nov 05, 2006 6:57 am

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 13):
I guess the question that comes to my mind is, why does Boeing assign production slots before all the formalities are completed, because this obviously creates a danger that the contract will fail. When Air India ordered 787s (and we know how long the Indian govt took to approve that!), no delivery slots were assigned until the govt had authorised it.

Good question - was this deal between Lebedev and Boeing a LoI, or had it progressed beyond that? My guess is that a LoI already includes production slots on a 'temporarily assigned' basis, so that should the contract be finalized in time, the slots the purchaser wanted will still be available; should the contract not be finalized, I'd guess that the temporarily assigned slots will simply expire and be re-assigned (perhaps even to the original buyer, should the expiry of the slot reservation be followed up quickly enough with a contract).

Just a guess...

Quoting NW727251ADV (Reply 14):
I'm sorry. Aeroflot is considered an "Eastern European" carrier???

What would you consider Aeroflot?
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zvezda
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RE: Aeroflot May Lose 787 Delivery Slots

Sun Nov 05, 2006 6:59 am

Quoting Leskova (Reply 17):
was this deal between Lebedev and Boeing a LoI, or had it progressed beyond that?

I don't think it got as far as a LoI. I think it was just a deposit on the slots.
 
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RE: Aeroflot May Lose 787 Delivery Slots

Sun Nov 05, 2006 7:10 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 18):
I don't think it got as far as a LoI. I think it was just a deposit on the slots.

So basically depositing money for slots that would be used for payment of the contract in case it should be closed - and will now be refunded since the options expired? Somehow, I wasn't really aware that this method exists... or it just might be the fact that I'm so tired that I'll be in bed in a couple of moments...  Wink
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Ken777
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RE: Aeroflot May Lose 787 Delivery Slots

Sun Nov 05, 2006 7:13 am

Weren't slots available with a refundable deposit? If so then that is where SU got the slots from and they would have been confirmed (for a period of time) with the LoI.

Makes one think about any other "reserved" slots that have not been covered with an order, or at least an LoI.
 
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RE: Aeroflot May Lose 787 Delivery Slots

Sun Nov 05, 2006 10:18 am

Right now, Aeroflot doesn't have a say. They cannot do anything until they receive a green light from the government. So we just have to wait and see, and hopefully the Russian government will give it's approval...

Aeroflot777
 
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RE: Aeroflot May Lose 787 Delivery Slots

Sun Nov 05, 2006 9:28 pm

Aeroflot have admitted that they have to start from scratch again with Boeing. Mr Lebedevs company, NRC, has received their deposit money back and the options are confirmed as totally expired. As per the following report;

"The agreement has expired, and Boeing gave us back the $40 million down payment," National Reserve Chief Executive Anatoly Danilitsky said in a telephone interview from Moscow. "Even if Aeroflot later decides to buy Boeing, it will be at higher prices and different time slots. The deal will have to be negotiated practically from scratch."

Danilitsky said that the issue of buying Boeing aircraft wasn't even brought up at Aeroflot's board meeting Oct. 25. The meeting also failed to decide on additional lease of three Boeing 767 airplanes.


[END - Fair use excerpt as per link below]

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/291124_aeroflot04.html

So, will Boeing concede the slots to another carrier? If so which carrier and will the Aeroflot order remain split as has previously been reported?

Regards, PanAm_DC10
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Ken777
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RE: Aeroflot May Lose 787 Delivery Slots

Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:17 pm

Well, if the slots have expired for SU then they have opened up for at least one other airliner. I don't know when the slots are for, but if they are good ones then there might be another airline (or more) signing an order or LoI rather soon for them.
 
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RE: Aeroflot May Lose 787 Delivery Slots

Mon Nov 06, 2006 12:21 am

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 22):
So, will Boeing concede the slots to another carrier? If so which carrier

Wouldn't it be ironic if this opens the door for a defection from an existing A350 customer, like US or QR?
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zvezda
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RE: Aeroflot May Lose 787 Delivery Slots

Mon Nov 06, 2006 5:35 am

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 22):
Danilitsky said that the issue of buying Boeing aircraft wasn't even brought up at Aeroflot's board meeting Oct. 25.

Given the Lebedev owns 30% of aeroflot, it's remarkable that he couldn't even get this item on the agenda for the board meeting.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 23):
I don't know when the slots are for,

The slots were for deliveries starting in 2010. These are now quite valuable. Someone will pay top dollar for these.
 
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RE: Aeroflot May Lose 787 Delivery Slots

Mon Nov 06, 2006 6:57 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 25):
The slots were for deliveries starting in 2010. These are now quite valuable. Someone will pay top dollar for these.

QR, US, JJ?
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JayinKitsap
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RE: Aeroflot May Lose 787 Delivery Slots

Mon Nov 06, 2006 4:07 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 25):
The slots were for deliveries starting in 2010. These are now quite valuable. Someone will pay top dollar for these.

AA, LH, BA, GECAS, EK - any number of airlines. Boeing could probably package as the first planes in two orders with 10 or 12 of each being SU's slots. As I recall, most of them were good slots like 2010 to 2012
 
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RE: Aeroflot May Lose 787 Delivery Slots

Thu Nov 09, 2006 5:57 pm

It seems that according to the following report SU will now have a long wait until they can secure 787s;

Fair use excerpt

By Lyubov Pronina
Nov. 9 (Bloomberg) -- OAO Aeroflot won't be able to add Boeing Co.'s new 787 airplane to its fleet until at least 2014 because the Russian carrier missed a deadline to order the jets, Chief Executive Officer Valery Okulov said, Interfax reported.

''There is still no directive from the government,'' Okulov said in Beijing today, the Russian news service reported. ''Boeing has sold everything until 2014 and we won't be able to buy anything.''


[END - Fair use excerpt http://www.bloomberg.com via http://www.interfax.com ]

Note, production sold out until 2014

Regards, PanAm_DC10
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Lumberton
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RE: Aeroflot May Lose 787 Delivery Slots

Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:08 pm

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 28):
Note, production sold out until 2014

If true, there must be some very large commitments that haven't been announced yet? last I heard production of the 787 was "spoken for" through most of 2012 (no, I don't have a ready source, sorry).
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
zvezda
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RE: Aeroflot May Lose 787 Delivery Slots

Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:53 pm

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 29):
If true, there must be some very large commitments that haven't been announced yet? last I heard production of the 787 was "spoken for" through most of 2012 (no, I don't have a ready source, sorry).

I also heard that very recently. I can't think where Boeing picked up 200+ B787 orders in the last month or so. I suspect what's going on is some airlines have placed deposits to reserve slots but haven't reached the stage of signing or announcing a LoI. EK could have deposits down on 100, for example.
 
hjulicher
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RE: Aeroflot May Lose 787 Delivery Slots

Fri Nov 10, 2006 6:25 am

If SU does go ahead and order the B787, then can they get their old slots back as long as Boeing hasn't given them up to another carrier? I feel terrible for SU as the Russian Government continues to impede on free market forces by dictating what aircraft an airline should order, and when they should be ordered.

Go ahead and own 51% of the airline, but at least let it be run independently!
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manni
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RE: Aeroflot May Lose 787 Delivery Slots

Fri Nov 10, 2006 9:14 pm

Apparently Aeroflot decided not to firm up their 787 commitment.

http://www.sharewatch.com/story.php?storynumber=250791

http://www.iii.co.uk/news/?type=afxn...1&subject=companies&action=article

Aeroflot said before that the deal could be split, 22 787s and 22 A350s. Now a 787 order seems less likely, would Airbus get all 44 of them?
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Stitch
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RE: Aeroflot May Lose 787 Delivery Slots

Sat Nov 11, 2006 2:08 am

Quoting Manni (Reply 32):
Now a 787 order seems less likely, would Airbus get all 44 of them?

The Russian government wants stuff from the EU, so they're dangling the A350 order in front of them as a "carrot" as well as the 787 order as a "stick". As Airbus is forced to push back the A350's EIS, that in turn forces the Russian government to push back SU's purchase decision.

Everything I have read from SU's principals are that they want the 787, but their not paying for the planes (literally or figuratively), so they have to take whatever the Russian government decides to give them.

Since the A350 will not be available until 2014, having to wait until then for the 787 does not change the status quo. The Russian government can continue to use a 787 order as a "stick" and an A350 order as a "carrot".

I do expect this order to eventually go to Airbus, because Airbus needs the sale and Russia needs what they want from the EU. So it's in Airbus' and Russia's best interest for the deal to go through.

The stickler will be what the Russian and EU governments settle for in order to consumate the deal. Once they do, SU will order A350s.

[Edited 2006-11-10 18:08:38]
 
dallasnewark
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RE: Aeroflot May Lose 787 Delivery Slots

Sat Nov 11, 2006 2:27 am

Quoting Manni (Reply 32):
Aeroflot said before that the deal could be split, 22 787s and 22 A350s. Now a 787 order seems less likely, would Airbus get all 44 of them?

Manni, it would all depend on how much concessions they would get from the European Union, be it a financial gain, or EU closing their eyes on certain political decisions regarding it's ex-satellite Soviet Republics.

And don't be surpised if they's still buy 22 787's, that would depend on the US allowing Russia to join the WTO or reducing the steel tariffs or something similar.

It's nice to know that my country of birth(USSR) still empoys these tactics  Smile
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