Curious
Topic Author
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Room For Anymore LCC's In Europe?

Sat Nov 04, 2006 3:07 am

Do you believe that the market is fully taken or could others on a major or niche level start and competite?
 
Pe@rson
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RE: Room For Anymore LCC's In Europe?

Sat Nov 04, 2006 6:18 am

Lots of room - there's considerable potential left - but not as airlines like FR and U2. Instead, I believe there's a lot of opportunities by taking advantage of niche markets; for example, you could have a Lyon-based, DH4 operator, from where it could fly domestically to, amongst others, Nantes, Toulouse, Bordeaux, Biarritz, Lille, Ajaccio (greatly increased frequencies during the summer) and other Corsican destinations, and, internationally, to, for example, Milan, Venice, Pisa, Rome, Barcelona, Madrid, Amsterdam and Prague. Then create a second base in Bordeaux, then a third in Toulouse, etc., from where they could fly to virtually the same destinations, etc.

Airfares from Vienna to key Eastern European destinations, for example Sofia, Bucharest, Kiev and Moscow, are normally absurdly expensive, at £250-300 for normal-priced return, despite short flights. Hence, there could be the potential there based on the obvious demand - there's a number of flights - and the very high airfares. But then Vienna's charges are very high and permission might be hard to receive on those routes (except Bulgaria and Romania which join the EU next year)...
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Jano
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RE: Room For Anymore LCC's In Europe?

Sat Nov 04, 2006 6:40 am

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 1):
Airfares from Vienna to key Eastern European destinations, for example Sofia, Bucharest, Kiev and Moscow, are normally absurdly expensive, at £250-300 for normal-priced return, despite short flights. Hence, there could be the potential there based on the obvious demand - there's a number of flights - and the very high airfares.

And that's SkyEurope's chance from BTS/BUD/PRG to compete with lower fares and lower cost.
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CXA330300
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RE: Room For Anymore LCC's In Europe?

Sat Nov 04, 2006 4:17 pm

Hmmm.......probably not. Other than niche markets in France and Eastern Europe, Europe has tons of LCCs already.
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sevenair
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RE: Room For Anymore LCC's In Europe?

Sat Nov 04, 2006 6:38 pm

I believe that there is certainly a market to MOW - if you look, most scheduled flights (there are of course some exceptions!) cost £250+ return. For example the Istanbul to London is of a similar flight duration with flight starting from the £100 mark, and EZY are offering flights there. There is word of a Moscow based LCC starting up, but flights to the EU are not expected for several years. Perhaps an oppertunity for an LCC to MOW is there - bar Gexx.com.
 
Kevin777
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RE: Room For Anymore LCC's In Europe?

Sat Nov 04, 2006 7:02 pm

Quoting Pe@rson (Reply 1):
Lots of room - there's considerable potential left - but not as airlines like FR and U2. Instead, I believe there's a lot of opportunities by taking advantage of niche markets; for example, you could have a Lyon-based, DH4 operator, from where it could fly domestically to, amongst others, Nantes, Toulouse, Bordeaux, Biarritz, Lille, Ajaccio (greatly increased frequencies during the summer) and other Corsican destinations, and, internationally, to, for example, Milan, Venice, Pisa, Rome, Barcelona, Madrid, Amsterdam and Prague. Then create a second base in Bordeaux, then a third in Toulouse, etc., from where they could fly to virtually the same destinations, etc

I think the European LCC-market is generally saturated and growth will follow normal economic growth rates in the future. However, this growth I can see coming from FR, U2, AB etc. A DH4 operator will have fundamental problems being an LCC; most notably lack of scale. Selling tickets at fares from 29 Euros and above you need some volume, and a DH4 doesn't have this. FlyI tried it in the US with regional jets instead of DH4's - okay, also a somewhat different setting, but still - didn't work. Small a/c and an pure LCC-model don't go hand in hand. As for the DH4, it's very efficient on short routes, but on for instance LYS-PRG it would be too slow and fuel-inefficient.

Quoting Jano (Reply 2):
And that's SkyEurope's chance from BTS/BUD/PRG to compete with lower fares and lower cost.

Eh.... maybe... but SkyEurope is loosing money by the truckloads... and are currently paying people to fly with them..

Quoting Sevenair (Reply 4):
I believe that there is certainly a market to MOW - if you look, most scheduled flights (there are of course some exceptions!) cost £250+ return. For example the Istanbul to London is of a similar flight duration with flight starting from the £100 mark, and EZY are offering flights there. There is word of a Moscow based LCC starting up, but flights to the EU are not expected for several years. Perhaps an oppertunity for an LCC to MOW is there - bar Gexx.com.

Problem with MOW is that it doesn't come under the common European sky; that is, you can't just open a route to MOW. There are restrictions in the bilateral, and many LCC's simply stay away from these markets because it's too much of a hassle. However, dba has started on DME from three German cities.

Kevin777
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PavlovsDog
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RE: Room For Anymore LCC's In Europe?

Sat Nov 04, 2006 7:39 pm

A Paris based LCC could make a killing. Air France isn't exactly cheap and the Ile-de-France market alone is humugous.
 
sevenair
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RE: Room For Anymore LCC's In Europe?

Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:43 pm

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 5):
Problem with MOW is that it doesn't come under the common European sky; that is, you can't just open a route to MOW.

This is true, but if there is most definately a market out there for more LCCs operating into an out of Europe from Russia.
 
MEA-707
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RE: Room For Anymore LCC's In Europe?

Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:50 pm

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 5):
Problem with MOW is that it doesn't come under the common European sky; that is, you can't just open a route to MOW.

Also it's still hard to get a visa for Russia as EU citizen. You have to be invited and show hotel bookings. A LCC won't like the extra hassle to check if everyone has a proper visa and the obligation to take pax back when they are refused entry, which will lengthen downtime in Russia.
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Aleksandar
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RE: Room For Anymore LCC's In Europe?

Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:57 pm

Serbia can benefit a lot from LCCs. Ryanair is interested in this market, Germanwings already started service to Belgrade while the first Serbian LCC Centavia is having legal problems to get traffic rights for its flight to Zagreb and Podgorica.
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CRJ900
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RE: Room For Anymore LCC's In Europe?

Sun Nov 05, 2006 3:26 am

What about Ukraine? Does Kiev and other big cities have a lot of LCC flights from domestic carriers and/or the big West European LCCs? Does Ukraine have open-skies with the rest of Europe?
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JoKeR
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RE: Room For Anymore LCC's In Europe?

Sun Nov 05, 2006 3:35 am

Quoting Aleksandar (Reply 9):
Serbia can benefit a lot from LCCs. Ryanair is interested in this market, Germanwings already started service to Belgrade while the first Serbian LCC Centavia is having legal problems to get traffic rights for its flight to Zagreb and Podgorica.

Well over 9 million people, and as it looks right now, will be without a single home-based airline as of April next year... how sad  Sad
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Aleksandar
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RE: Room For Anymore LCC's In Europe?

Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:28 am

Quoting JoKeR (Reply 11):
Well over 9 million people, and as it looks right now, will be without a single home-based airline as of April next year... how sad

Now, I'm confused. Are you saying that JAT will go out of business?
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Curious
Topic Author
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RE: Room For Anymore LCC's In Europe?

Sun Nov 05, 2006 6:50 am

I believe that no LCC can start in Europe and grow to a evena medium level. If their is a attractive route surely the other major LCC's will move in on it once it has been discovered.

I think the remaining oppourtunity for new LCC airlines is in Mideast, Africa and possibly South America?
 
Kevin777
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RE: Room For Anymore LCC's In Europe?

Sun Nov 05, 2006 4:33 pm

Quoting Curious (Reply 13):
I think the remaining oppourtunity for new LCC airlines is in Mideast, Africa and possibly South America?

Africa????? Except for South Africa and maybe a bit in Morocco and Egypt (don't even think that will happen too soon), this ain't gonna happen for a looooong time, if ever. Virgin Nigeria is an exception, I wouldn't exactly call it an LCC, but "just" a "normal" airline.

Kevin777
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Beaucaire
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RE: Room For Anymore LCC's In Europe?

Sun Nov 05, 2006 4:46 pm

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 14):
Africa????? Except for South Africa and maybe a bit in Morocco and Egypt (don't even think that will happen too soon), this ain't gonna happen for a looooong time, if ever. Virgin Nigeria is an exception, I wouldn't exactly call it an LCC, but "just" a "normal" airline.

China is currently putting in tremendous effords to control manufacturing,construction ,consumer goods and Infrastructure opportunities in Africa.They move very quickly.There are identified shortcommings in terms of airtransport in Western-central Africa (Cameron,Gabon,Congo,Mali,Liberia etc..)Nigeria is a market by itself.
I think we will see developpements in Africa next year.LCC's do have an Internet-sale based model,which does not work in Afrca et this moment for lack of access to internet and unavailability of credit-card based aconomy.
But the need for increased air-travel is identified and will be addressed.
RAM (Royal Air Maroc )have a clear strategy to move more agressively into parts of the region.
There would be a market for an algerian domestic LCC!

[Edited 2006-11-05 08:48:13]
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