jimyvr
Posts: 1597
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:08 pm

Russia/China To Join Building 275~350-seater Plane

Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:14 am

From my daily newsletter mail of "RusAviaNews", received on 03NOV06....

RUSSIA AND CHINA TO JOIN EFFORTS IN BUILDING AIRCRAFT


Quote:
/VZGLYAD- (vision)/
Above all, the point is to start efforts for designing a big airplane, both civil and transport, chief of the Federal Industry Agency Boris Alyoshin told Wednesday Interfax. According to him, it would be a wide-body airplane having capacity of 275-350 seats. And a corresponding transport version of it.
For the first time we are going to start such a large-scale cooperation in the civil area. In fact, it is a question of diversifying relations between China and Russia, which have mainly been focused on military projects, said Alyoshin.

He also noted this will be a commercial project. The Chinese side is as well interested in it, since in China underway are reforms too, including those in the aviation industry. The Chinese are as well operating toward shifting focus from budget component to commercial one. In the given case such a project might be of interest to the both sides.

This would be a joint development. We also would like to have the Chinese side involved in the project. So that it is not only a question of finance, but also a question of partnership, an of making this equipment in China, said Alyoshin.
1000 - 01MAR07 | http://airlineroute.blogspot.com/
 
RIXrat
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RE: Russia/China To Join Building 275~350-seater Plane

Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:30 am

Let's dream on for another 15-20 years if this so-called commercial project ever gets off the ground between Russia and China. Airbus is already poking it's nose into China, and guess what, who do you think will win the collaboration?
 
mrcomet
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RE: Russia/China To Join Building 275~350-seater Plane

Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:37 am

They could call it the Illusion 97.

While Russian and China are likely to be able to make a cheap plane, I am not sure they have enough of the technologies to make a competitive plane in that class. If they were serious, they would go after the 90-120 seat range that Boeing continues to ignore with a Mr. Magoo shortsidedness. Still, they'd only sell to third world LCCs for awhile but with a few cycles they might be able to sell quite a few airplanes.
The dude abides
 
gmcc
Posts: 135
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RE: Russia/China To Join Building 275~350-seater Plane

Sat Nov 04, 2006 9:40 am

Now we know where and with who the A350XWB will be developed.  stirthepot   duck 
 
katekebo
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RE: Russia/China To Join Building 275~350-seater Plane

Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:05 am

Quoting MrComet (Reply 2):
While Russian and China are likely to be able to make a cheap plane, I am not sure they have enough of the technologies to make a competitive plane in that class.

Russia has the technology to make military airplanes (fighters) that are aerodynamically superior/equal to Western counterparts. They make arguably the most reliable space ship (Soyuz). Russian aeronautical and space technology is superior to Western Europe. Chine is advancing very fast in terms of manufacturing technology. They can be a formidable competitor.

Overconfidence is what kills established companies. Remember when GM, Ford, VW or Mercedes laughed at Toyota and Honda? Today, Toyota makes 10x more profit than any of these companies, and sells more cars than any except GM, but next year they will probably beat GM, too.
 
Dash8King
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RE: Russia/China To Join Building 275~350-seater Plane

Sat Nov 04, 2006 12:08 pm

Just because it is a great machine doesnt mean it will be successful.
 
Carpethead
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RE: Russia/China To Join Building 275~350-seater Plane

Sat Nov 04, 2006 1:53 pm

There will be still be sufficient Western components such as engines and avionics because the Western companies have a far superior products, unless they themselves come up with technology that is far better.
Still, they will have to come up with tons of money for R&D and be a systems integrator.
Frankly, I think something of a 200-300 seat plane would be perfect with the window of opportunity as Airbus finds itself locked into troubles with the A380 and the successor to the A330/340 still not defined too clearly.

Lastly, ten years ago would anybody though a small Brazilian-company that produced nothing bigger than thirty-seat props would alone be producing 100-seat jets? Unless one worked at Embraer, probably no.
Under the skin, it has Western avionics and engines; hence no problem with acceptance by carriers worldwide.
 
mrcomet
Posts: 575
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RE: Russia/China To Join Building 275~350-seater Plane

Sat Nov 04, 2006 4:35 pm

Quoting Katekebo (Reply 4):
Russia has the technology to make military airplanes (fighters) that are aerodynamically superior/equal to Western counterparts. They make arguably the most reliable space ship (Soyuz). Russian aeronautical and space technology is superior to Western Europe. Chine is advancing very fast in terms of manufacturing technology. They can be a formidable competitor.

I have no doubts of the formidability of Chinese and Russian technology, genius and innovation. I have been to both countries. However, I do have doubts about their ability to design low cost, hyper efficient, complex industrial projects using multiple vendors in multiple countries. Nothing works in Russia...not becuase its bad but there is always a breakdown somewhere in the system. China is the same. Corruption alone which is endemic will provide them from launching a serious airliners. However, Putin is sleazing his way to controlling of Eastern European industry through mafia ties -- add that to an expansionist industrial policy, huge goverment subsidies and extensive payoffs to corrupt airline management and he can make some progress but we've been through that before an it is not sustainable.

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 6):
Lastly, ten years ago would anybody though a small Brazilian-company that produced nothing bigger than thirty-seat props would alone be producing 100-seat jets? Unless one worked at Embraer, probably no.
Under the skin, it has Western avionics and engines; hence no problem with acceptance by carriers worldwide.

My point exactly. Start small and work your way up.
The dude abides
 
ComeAndGo
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RE: Russia/China To Join Building 275~350-seater Plane

Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:32 pm

Quoting RIXrat (Reply 1):
Let's dream on for another 15-20 years if this so-called commercial project ever gets off the ground between Russia and China. Airbus is already poking it's nose into China, and guess what, who do you think will win the collaboration?

Are you sure Airbus wants to collaborate with China? From what I read, they want to build their A320s in China. Europe and the US don't want any technology transfered to China. How can Airbus design a new aircraft with China without transferring technology? Airbus will assemble existing aircraft in China. However, China wants to design and build aircraft, that's a totally different game.
 
planemaker
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RE: Russia/China To Join Building 275~350-seater Plane

Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:33 pm

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 6):
Lastly, ten years ago would anybody though a small Brazilian-company that produced nothing bigger than thirty-seat props would alone be producing 100-seat jets? Unless one worked at Embraer, probably no.

10 years ago... not even in Embraer. The first ERJ-145 was only delivered 10 years ago.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
ComeAndGo
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RE: Russia/China To Join Building 275~350-seater Plane

Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:07 pm

Yes, but…

Embraer developed a fighter aircraft with Alenia called AMX in the late 80's. That gave them enough knowhow to build wings for a passenger-jet. The rest they already knew how to do.
 
Rheinbote
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RE: Russia/China To Join Building 275~350-seater Plane

Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:37 pm

Both the Russians and the Chinese lack customer knowledge and have limited understanding of after-sales support services.
 
zvezda
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RE: Russia/China To Join Building 275~350-seater Plane

Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:41 pm

The Russian and Chinese markets alone are quite large. India and Africa and South America are also potential markets, along with much of south east Asia. All the high tech stuff would be sourced from the West just like with the 5 abreast Chinese airliner that just started selling.

Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 11):
Both the Russians and the Chinese lack customer knowledge and have limited understanding of after-sales support services.

This will take time to develop, but it can be done.
 
a380heavy
Posts: 237
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RE: Russia/China To Join Building 275~350-seater Plane

Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:02 pm

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 8):
Are you sure Airbus wants to collaborate with China? From what I read, they want to build their A320s in China. Europe and the US don't want any technology transfered to China. How can Airbus design a new aircraft with China without transferring technology? Airbus will assemble existing aircraft in China. However, China wants to design and build aircraft, that's a totally different game.

China will simply reverse engineer anything you give to them. They recently bought tooling from the Rover car company after it went bust and a few months later guess what - the first Roewe (pronounced Roe-wah) cars are coming off the production line in China.

At least now instead of just A versus B we'll have a 'C' as well with the 'Commi-jet'  Big grin
Flown in:732,733,734,738,742,752,763,772,F27,DC9,MD-11,A300,A332,ATR72,DHC-6,Bell206,C172,Auster,PA-28
 
planemaker
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RE: Russia/China To Join Building 275~350-seater Plane

Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:24 pm

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 10):
Yes, but…

Embraer developed a fighter aircraft with Alenia called AMX in the late 80's. That gave them enough knowhow to build wings for a passenger-jet. The rest they already knew how to do.

Yes, but... so do the Russians and Chinese (in fact, much larger military aircraft and way before Embraer)... and they still don't have any 100-seat airliners selling in the west. 10 years ago it wasn't because of "know how" that no one at EMB could have imagined that they'd be building 100-seat jets.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
ikramerica
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RE: Russia/China To Join Building 275~350-seater Plane

Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:30 pm

Quoting Katekebo (Reply 4):
Overconfidence is what kills established companies. Remember when GM, Ford, VW or Mercedes laughed at Toyota and Honda?

Toyota and Honda didn't start with the S-Class. They started with very small, budget minded cars and it took years and years to grow up.

Anyway, Russia is not Toyota. Russias been building passenger planes of all sized for years and years.

Quoting Katekebo (Reply 4):
Russia has the technology to make military airplanes (fighters) that are aerodynamically superior/equal to Western counterparts.

Fighter jets sit on the ground most of the time. 6 hours of downtime for every 1 in the air. They are not reliable, and need constant care and repair. Nor are they efficient.

Passenger planes are different.

It took Ferrari generations to leverage their racing heritage into a street car that not only worked well (that wasn't the hard part) but that didn't break down constantly and didn't require expensive rebuilds every few years.

The proper argument is that Russia has been building commercial jets for generations and could make a better one, if given the chance.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Poitin
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RE: Russia/China To Join Building 275~350-seater Plane

Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:35 pm

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 9):
Quoting Carpethead (Reply 6):
Lastly, ten years ago would anybody though a small Brazilian-company that produced nothing bigger than thirty-seat props would alone be producing 100-seat jets? Unless one worked at Embraer, probably no.

10 years ago... not even in Embraer. The first ERJ-145 was only delivered 10 years ago.

And who would have ever believed that a little French company, Sud Aviation, could not only produce a small regional jet -- the Caravelle -- but also sell it to United Airlines the the mid-1950's. UA had their problems with Sud Aviation, particularly with regard to customer support, but Sud Aviation got the message and got it right. And guess who Sud Aviation is today? Guess in what buildings in Toulouse the Caravelle and A300 were built in and where the A320 is today?

Please don't tell me what the Russians can't do. They are the best chess players, mathematicians and composers in the world. And remember that the first four engine transport aircraft was built in Russian by Igor Sikorsky during WWI
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
Alessandro
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RE: Russia/China To Join Building 275~350-seater Plane

Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:53 pm

I doubt it´ll happen, the strength of the Russian aviation is cargohauler- and
firefighting airplanes and helicopters, not passenger airplanes. Airbus and Boeing are heavy involved in Russia, taking up lot of local talent.
Sure PRC and Russia got lot of co-operation like the PRC space-program entirely based on Russian technology, PRC building Antonovs on licens,
flying Il-86s.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
planemaker
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RE: Russia/China To Join Building 275~350-seater Plane

Sun Nov 05, 2006 12:09 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 16):
And who would have ever believed that a little French company, Sud Aviation, could not only produce a small regional jet -- the Caravelle -- but also sell it to United Airlines the the mid-1950's.

Don't really see what relevance your post has. The Caravelle was designed and built at the dawn of the jet age (with the Comet nose and cockpit) and had no competiton... until the superior BAC 1-11 and then DC-9. Very different than today if a Russian or Chinese airliner goes up against Airbus or Boeing.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
zvezda
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RE: Russia/China To Join Building 275~350-seater P

Sun Nov 05, 2006 12:31 am

Quoting A380Heavy (Reply 13):
At least now instead of just A versus B we'll have a 'C' as well with the 'Commi-jet'

Good. It would push Airbus and Boeing to try harder and progress faster. I'd love to see another player in the airliner business.
 
mrcomet
Posts: 575
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RE: Russia/China To Join Building 275~350-seater Plane

Sun Nov 05, 2006 12:32 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 15):
The proper argument is that Russia has been building commercial jets for generations and could make a better one, if given the chance

What is stopping them? What chance do they need?

The Russians have a well known history making jets. They sell them for a fraction of what Boeing and Airbus does but they can't sell them to even their own airlines. It's not just technology. It's marketing, advertising, sales, customer support. Have you EVER BEEN TO RUSSIA. Good customer service is when someone doesn't hit you for asking for something (same in Bosnia I am afraid).

Start small. Learn. Grow. Copy. But to build a widebody to compete against the 787/A350???? Foolish.
The dude abides
 
Alessandro
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Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 3:13 am

RE: Russia/China To Join Building 275~350-seater Plane

Sun Nov 05, 2006 12:45 am

MrComet, don´t forget that banksupport is something that sell Airbus, Boeing and Embraer as well, if no banksupport then it´s difficult to sell any larger airplane in any larger numbers.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
cyclonic
Posts: 182
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RE: Russia/China To Join Building 275~350-seater Plane

Sun Nov 05, 2006 1:33 am

This is something I wouldn't be surprised at. It could, nay, should happen.
Besdies, anything to get ride of those nasty green coloured cockpits!!  Smile
Keith Richards: The man that Death forgot...
 
Poitin
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RE: Russia/China To Join Building 275~350-seater Plane

Sun Nov 05, 2006 2:01 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 19):
Quoting A380Heavy (Reply 13):
At least now instead of just A versus B we'll have a 'C' as well with the 'Commi-jet'

Good. It would push Airbus and Boeing to try harder and progress faster. I'd love to see another player in the airliner business.

So would the airlines, who are pretty much fed up with Airbus at this point.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
hamster
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RE: Russia/China To Join Building 275~350-seater Plane

Sun Nov 05, 2006 4:03 am

There are brilliant minds all over the world - certainly Russian and China have their share. However, Russia is building jets today and I dont see one US carrier flying a TU-154. Is is because you have to call your life insurance company to see if your policy is current? The safety record on their planes is horrendous. China, well I just think they are painfully behind in terms of this technology. I certainly would invest my hard earned coin in that venture.
 
A342
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RE: Russia/China To Join Building 275~350-seater Plane

Sun Nov 05, 2006 4:42 am

Quoting Hamster (Reply 24):
However, Russia is building jets today and I dont see one US carrier flying a TU-154. Is is because you have to call your life insurance company to see if your policy is current? The safety record on their planes is horrendous.

This post just shows your non-existing knowledge of the aircraft and their accidents. Flame me all you want, but if operated properly, I'd say they are among the safest aircraft on earth.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
hamster
Posts: 135
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RE: Russia/China To Join Building 275~350-seater Plane

Sun Nov 05, 2006 4:46 am

Quoting Hamster (Reply 24):
This post just shows your non-existing knowledge of the aircraft and their accidents. Flame me all you want, but if operated properly, I'd say they are among the safest aircraft on earth.

Check their safety record. Stick to the facts.
 
Alessandro
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RE: Russia/China To Join Building 275~350-seater Plane

Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:10 am

Hamster, so it doesn´t matter under which circumstances they operate their aircrafts?
How long did it take the IL-86 to have a fatal accident and how many fatal accidents with the IL-96?
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
NW727251ADV
Posts: 301
Joined: Sun May 01, 2005 5:55 pm

RE: Russia/China To Join Building 275~350-seater Plane

Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:12 am

Quoting Hamster (Reply 24):
Russia is building jets today and I dont see one US carrier flying a TU-154. Is is because you have to call your life insurance company to see if your policy is current? The safety record on their planes is horrendous.

Yes, you really do need to check your facts and get informed. There was a thread discussing the safety of the TU-154 a few weeks ago and the consensus was the bulk of the TU-154 accidents were caused by either human error (the majority) or by weather phenomena. There is no design fault with the TU-154.
NWA   N O R T H W E S T A I R L I N E S
 
A342
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RE: Russia/China To Join Building 275~350-seater Plane

Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:17 am

Quoting Hamster (Reply 26):
Check their safety record. Stick to the facts.

It is you who doesn't stick to the facts. It should be noted that most of the crashes are in Africa, mainly Congo. Proper mx facilities aren't available over there, nor are the people working with the aircraft properly trained.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
concentriq
Posts: 283
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 11:37 am

RE: Russia/China To Join Building 275~350-seater Plane

Sun Nov 05, 2006 6:40 am

Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 11):
Both the Russians and the Chinese lack customer knowledge and have limited understanding of after-sales support services.

consulting??


As much as I would love for something good to happen to Russian aviation industry, i think they missed the boat. (anyone remember RRJ?) It pains me, but the government and other power structures/organized crime sold themselves out to corruption, greed, and selfish interests. Many people with tech degrees chose sales and marketing as jobs, simply because you make 10x more (on average) doing that than working in tech field. Professional tech workforce left over from days of USSR is getting old fast, and young professionals are choosing different paths or leaving the country (a "brain leakage" to use local jargon). This seems to apply to ALL tech fields in former SU, including aviation. In a few years it will be too late to revive anything, and once oil and gas runs out, Russia will have to start all over again. Terrible!
Mobilis In Mobili
 
A342
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RE: Russia/China To Join Building 275~350-seater Plane

Sun Nov 05, 2006 6:53 am

Quoting Concentriq (Reply 30):
(anyone remember RRJ?)

What's wrong with it ? Construction has just started, and the engines are already running on the test beds.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
jonty
Posts: 221
Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2004 3:10 am

RE: Russia/China To Join Building 275~350-seater Plane

Sun Nov 05, 2006 7:01 am

I think its quite good to get some "new blood" into the industry!
you never know what could happen...
 
Alessandro
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RE: Russia/China To Join Building 275~350-seater Plane

Sun Nov 05, 2006 7:16 am

Conc, I think Airbus and Boeing been creaming off lot of the talent, tripple-7 success got a lot to thank to the Russian know-how.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
RichardPrice
Posts: 4474
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RE: Russia/China To Join Building 275~350-seater Plane

Sun Nov 05, 2006 7:42 am

Quoting A380Heavy (Reply 13):
China will simply reverse engineer anything you give to them. They recently bought tooling from the Rover car company after it went bust and a few months later guess what - the first Roewe (pronounced Roe-wah) cars are coming off the production line in China.

Nanjing Automobile Group purchased Rover in 2005, moved engine production to China and moved part of the car production to China.

Shanghai Automotive Industry Corporation had previously purchased rights to Rover 75 production, including tooling, knowledge and production capability. They attempted to secure rights to the Rover name after Rover went under, but Ford took up the option before them, hence the Roewe name.

No reverse engineering in either circumstance, they bought and paid for what they are using.

When Russia or China want to do something, its very rare that they fail, and thats going to be what happens right here.

And they are pretty good at reverse engineering, take a look at the Shanghai Y-10 - a near perfect replica of the 707 for the sole purpose of bringing domestic civil aircraft knowledge up a few levels without doing all the R&D. Two examples were made, and flew for 4 years from 1980 to 1984.

Notable is the fact that the Y-10 project ended in 1984, and the Chinese production of the MD-80 began in 1985.
 
RIXrat
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RE: Russia/China To Join Building 275~350-seater Plane

Sun Nov 05, 2006 7:57 am

Allesandro,

Regarding the B777 project, I doubt that Russian engineering had much to do with it. The aircraft was launched in 1990 a year before the Soviet melt-down and first flew in 1994. I doubt that Russian engineers had much to do with it.

I also realize that Boeing and Airbus were after the mathematical and engineering talent in Russia at the time of the changeover. These geniuses may have provided to the 787 project, but the 777 had already bypassed them.
 
concentriq
Posts: 283
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 11:37 am

RE: Russia/China To Join Building 275~350-seater Plane

Sun Nov 05, 2006 7:59 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 31):
What's wrong with it ? Construction has just started, and the engines are already running on the test beds

I havent checked news on RRJ (Superjet 100) for some time. I didnt know. Thank you for pointing out my error.
Mobilis In Mobili
 
AirSpare
Posts: 570
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2006 1:13 am

RE: Russia/China To Join Building 275~350-seater Plane

Sun Nov 05, 2006 8:28 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 15):
Toyota and Honda didn't start with the S-Class. They started with very small, budget minded cars and it took years and years to grow up.

I think that it is worthwhile to note, that Honda was more or less catapulted into strong sales by two random factors coming together at the same time. The 1973 Oil Embargo driving gas prices, and the Combined Vortex Controlled Combustion engine (an American patent IIRC, that had no use in the US when gas was 27 cents a gallon). Remember all of those CVCCs running around in the 70s?

Random events come together to create massive change or innovation, such as 3M creating Post-It notes from a failed glue that never properly dried.

Don't discount the possibility, cheap clothing assembly went off shore, then TV assembly, now IT in India is a booming industry (check out the Reliance Lab near Mumbai), for a few examples of the evolution of technology transfer. Russia has a wealth of natural resources, from Titanium to energy, Huawei is crushing traditional Telecom vendors such as Nokia, Motorola, Nortel and others in Africa. Anything is possible!
Get someone else for your hero worship fetish
 
ComeAndGo
Posts: 810
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RE: Russia/China To Join Building 275~350-seater Plane

Sun Nov 05, 2006 9:10 am

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 14):
10 years ago it wasn't because of "know how" that no one at EMB could have imagined that they'd be building 100-seat jets.

They had a very successful commuter plane called EMB-120 Brasilia. In order to build a regional jet they needed knowhow on how to design a swept back wing.

The russians have been building tons of planes. But they always rely on Russian propulsion which isn't the winning solution. China didn't build much except for remanufactured russian equipment and a few assemblies of MD-80s.
 
Thorny
Posts: 1508
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RE: Russia/China To Join Building 275~350-seater Plane

Sun Nov 05, 2006 10:34 am

Quoting Katekebo (Reply 4):
Russian aeronautical and space technology is superior to Western Europe.

Aside from fighters and high-thrust rocket engines, that is very much debatable. Western European satellite technology is comparable to that of America, both being an order of magnitude better than Russia's. There is a reason Russia launches many more satellites each year than does the West... their satellites don't last nearly as long or do nearly as much as their western counterparts. Soyuz, as you said, is the world's safest manned spacecraft, but it is only marginally superior to the U.S. Space Shuttle, statistically speaking. Russia is still very competitive in the space launch arena, but it is staying in the game with elderly rocket designs (Soyuz and Proton) compared to the much newer Ariane 5 and Delta IV in the West. Their greatest success in recent years comes from the 80s-era Zenit 3 ("Sea Launch") and marrying a Russian engine with a U.S. rocket (Atlas 5). So it is questionable that their "technology" is truly superior to Europe's, meaning they may have quite a formidable project on their hands trying to equal Airbus and Boeing, in terms of technology.
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13730
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Russia/China To Join Building 275~350-seater Plane

Sun Nov 05, 2006 2:29 pm

Quoting AirSpare (Reply 38):
Don't discount the possibility, cheap clothing assembly went off shore, then TV assembly, now IT in India is a booming industry (check out the Reliance Lab near Mumbai), for a few examples of the evolution of technology transfer.

But the quality of every example you give has gone DOWN with the shift, just the price is low so people are willing to deal with it. Or companies are (people are quite fed up with offshore customer support and technical assistance sent off to India). The chinese made DVD players fall apart in short order, the chinese designed Plasma tvs may be cheap, but they are far inferior in picture quality, etc.

This can't be the case in the aerospace industry because the raw materials are expensive (so labor isn't the major factor driving the price), and for a china/russia jet, an india jet, etc. to prove itself outside of those territories, it needs to be more reliable and higher quality, not "almost as good." An airline isn't willing to spend 75% of the normal price for a jet if it means an increase in failure rate, a decrease in dispatch rate, and a faster deterioration of the product over time.

Retailers actually welcome forced replacement and premature death of products (after warranty expires) as it leads to more sales.

Airlines will not stand for either of those things...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
TrijetsRMissed
Posts: 1978
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:15 pm

RE: Russia/China To Join Building 275~350-seater Plane

Sun Nov 05, 2006 2:37 pm

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 6):
Lastly, ten years ago would anybody though a small Brazilian-company that produced nothing bigger than thirty-seat props would alone be producing 100-seat jets?

With Fokker's inability to develop a more advanced F100, and Boeing's decision to can the 717, the market was for the taking.

Had MD not went under, I am sure there would be more MD-95's in the skies today.
There's nothing quite like a trijet.
 
planemaker
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Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:53 pm

RE: Russia/China To Join Building 275~350-seater Plane

Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:46 pm

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 38):
They had a very successful commuter plane called EMB-120 Brasilia. In order to build a regional jet they needed knowhow on how to design a swept back wing.

FYI, you don't need to design a light strike aircraft in order to get "know how" to design an RJ's swept back wing... e.g. Fokker didn't and nor did Bombardier.

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 38):
The russians have been building tons of planes. But they always rely on Russian propulsion which isn't the winning solution.

Always? TU-204-120 and Il96M.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
ComeAndGo
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RE: Russia/China To Join Building 275~350-seater Plane

Sun Nov 05, 2006 8:51 pm

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 42):
FYI, you don't need to design a light strike aircraft in order to get "know how" to design an RJ's swept back wing... e.g. Fokker didn't and nor did Bombardier.

Bombardie's RJ is based on their business jet. Besides Fokker and Bombardier had tons of experience when they started building RJ's. You can't compare Embraer 20 years ago with a western country's aviation industry. Italy never built an RJ but has the technical knowhow to do so. 20 years ago, Brazil had no aviation knowhow of any kind. They had to acquire it somehow. One way to do so, is to collaborate on the design and manufacturing of an aircraft. For an example, Italy's Agusta collaborates with Bell in the development of the commercial version of the tilt rotor Osprey. Agusta will thus gather knowhow how to build a tilt rotor aircraft.

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 42):
Always? TU-204-120 and Il96M.

Yes, but both planes are not approved in the west. The Russian would not translate the necessary documents into english. So the FAA and JAA couldn't read them. Only the TU-204 cargo version is cleared in the west.
 
mrcomet
Posts: 575
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 5:53 am

RE: Russia/China To Join Building 275~350-seater Plane

Sun Nov 05, 2006 9:19 pm

Quoting Concentriq (Reply 30):
but the government and other power structures/organized crime sold themselves out to corruption, greed, and selfish interests.

Thank you. Obviously people here have never worked in Russia where corruption is not only endemic, it is a basic building block. The Russian miracle is made of two parts oil, one part natural gas, one part KGB/Putin industrial policy and one part extortion/bribery. Sorry. They will have trouble competing until they clean up their act. It's too bad for such a wonderful country.
The dude abides
 
A342
Posts: 4017
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 11:05 pm

RE: Russia/China To Join Building 275~350-seater Plane

Sun Nov 05, 2006 10:04 pm

Quoting Thorny (Reply 39):
There is a reason Russia launches many more satellites each year than does the West... their satellites don't last nearly as long or do nearly as much as their western counterparts.

This is currently improving.

Quoting Thorny (Reply 39):
Soyuz, as you said, is the world's safest manned spacecraft, but it is only marginally superior to the U.S. Space Shuttle, statistically speaking. Russia is still very competitive in the space launch arena, but it is staying in the game with elderly rocket designs (Soyuz and Proton) compared to the much newer Ariane 5 and Delta IV in the West.

Just in case you haven't noticed: An improved Soyuz version was just successfully launched twice, and an even more sohisticated version is almost ready to launch.
Also, how do you explain the Soyuz launch facility being bulit at Kourou ? Clearly, the Soyuz is still very competitive
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
RichardPrice
Posts: 4474
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 5:12 am

RE: Russia/China To Join Building 275~350-seater Plane

Sun Nov 05, 2006 10:36 pm

Quoting Thorny (Reply 39):
Russia is still very competitive in the space launch arena, but it is staying in the game with elderly rocket designs (Soyuz and Proton) compared to the much newer Ariane 5 and Delta IV in the West.

If it aint broke, dont fix it.
 
Thorny
Posts: 1508
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 8:44 am

RE: Russia/China To Join Building 275~350-seater Plane

Mon Nov 06, 2006 1:54 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 45):
Quoting Thorny (Reply 39):
their satellites don't last nearly as long or do nearly as much as their western counterparts.

This is currently improving.

At a snail's pace. Meanwhile, western satellite technology is not standing still, either.

Quoting A342 (Reply 45):
Just in case you haven't noticed: An improved Soyuz version was just successfully launched twice, and an even more sohisticated version is almost ready to launch.

Of course, I'm not knocking Soyuz or its latest updated electronics and an improved upper stage. But its still a 1950s design at heart. It would be like Boeing trying to covert B-52 technology into a competitive airliner today.

Quoting A342 (Reply 45):
Also, how do you explain the Soyuz launch facility being bulit at Kourou ? Clearly, the Soyuz is still very competitive

It was much cheaper than Europe developing its own Medium-class launch vehicle, or maintaining Ariane 4 production (which it cancelled in favor of the larger, more efficient Ariane 5) for the number of payloads Europe needs to launch.

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 46):
If it aint broke, dont fix it.

Agreed, but they're still elderly technology as far as the aerospace industry is concerned. So a significant portion of Russia's aerospace prowess is based on 1950s and 60s technology. That's not something they're likely to convert into a state-of-the-art airliner capable of challenging Airbus and Boeing.
 
Rheinbote
Posts: 1103
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RE: Russia/China To Join Building 275~350-seater Plane

Mon Nov 06, 2006 2:03 am

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 43):
20 years ago, Brazil had no aviation knowhow of any kind

http://www.embraer.com.br/english/content/empresa/profile.asp
Based in São José dos Campos, Brazil, Embraer was founded in 1969 as a government initiative and then privatized on December 7, 1994.

That's 37 years in my calendar.

And then there was Alberto Santos Dumont, a Brazilian aviation pioneer and contemporary of the Wright Brothers...
http://www.smithsonianeducation.org/...acto/graphic/aviation/alberto.html
 
Alessandro
Posts: 4962
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 3:13 am

RE: Russia/China To Join Building 275~350-seater Plane

Mon Nov 06, 2006 2:15 am

RIXrat, everyday since the launch people are working on the tripple-7 design, do you seriously think it stops after the maiden flight?
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...

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