gilesdavies
Posts: 2268
Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 7:51 pm

Low Cost Carriers To Russia From The UK.

Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:29 pm

What would the chances be of LCC like Ryanair and easyJet flying to Russia, to cities like Moscow and St Petersburg.

The flying time is only about 3-3.5hrs and well within the remit of other flights they operate of similar lengths.

I notice the likes of Germanwings and Air Berlin have Moscow well covered from a number of German cities.

I was just looking at prices with the likes or Aeroflot and British Airways and they are charging over £400 even with a Saturday night stopover. I notice BMI/Transaero hs entered the market but their £199 return fares they advertise are just lead in fares and majority are similarly priced above £400.

-------------------------
Sorry! - I have just noticed Ryanair do actually operate to Moscow... Kaunas and Riga - Moscow West.  Wink
 
ehho
Posts: 769
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2005 3:26 am

RE: Low Cost Carriers To Russia From The UK.

Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:46 pm

Quoting Gilesdavies (Thread starter):
Kaunas and Riga - Moscow West.

What a sick joke! Try getting past that iron curtain border. Especially if by car, be prepared to wait for many hours.

Actually, U2 flies to Tallinn and Riga as well. Russian public aren't really price-sensitive, except for the large minorities, like in Germany. Whereas U2 and FR serve tourists who want to see the Baltic countries, flights to Russia would be filled with business people, Russian expats, and tourists on organized tours, i.e. not LCC public. And with Russia being as closed and unattractive for tourists, it will take some time to generate the flow of price-sensitive public necessary for LCC operation.
"Get your facts first. Then you may distort them as much as you please" -- Mark Twain
 
dogfighter2111
Posts: 1867
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 3:02 am

RE: Low Cost Carriers To Russia From The UK.

Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:50 pm

Heya,

I think that FR may well fly to Moscow or St. P'berg eventually as it would probably be very profitable if the airlines are charging such high fares but I must say that it depends on when you book. I can see a £210 fare on BMI with a Saturday night Stop-over in January.

Thanks
Mike
 
MHG
Posts: 723
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 1:33 am

RE: Low Cost Carriers To Russia From The UK.

Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:52 pm

Simply no chance...

Since it´s not an "open market" !

And unless there´s a principle change in russian aviation policy
FR would be the last thing the russian transportation ministry allow to go to Moscow - but you´ll never know what kind of "deals" are made behind the curtain...
At least the irish government would have to make a really irresistble offer to the russians...
I miss the sound of rolls royce darts and speys
 
cy319
Posts: 368
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:42 pm

RE: Low Cost Carriers To Russia From The UK.

Sun Nov 05, 2006 11:57 pm

Quoting EHHO (Reply 1):
Russia being as closed and unattractive for tourists

u must be joking!!! Moscow and ST Petersburg are beautiful cities with unique monuments that attract millions of tourists from all parts of the world.

I believe that one of the reasons why Russia does not attract as many tourists as other 'Eastern' European Countries like the Czech Rep and Hungary is the lack of cheap airfares to/from this market as a result of the current monopolistic-duopolistic situation on most of the routes. LCCs are definately needed over there.
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gilesdavies
Posts: 2268
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RE: Low Cost Carriers To Russia From The UK.

Mon Nov 06, 2006 2:08 am

Any reason why

Quoting MHG (Reply 3):
Simply no chance...

Since it´s not an "open market" !

And unless there´s a principle change in russian aviation policy

I appreciate it is not an open market, but how come other EU countries like Germany seem to have a plentiful number on low cost flights to Moscow with the likes of Germanwings and Air Berlin (Germania).
 
JakTrax
Posts: 4636
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RE: Low Cost Carriers To Russia From The UK.

Mon Nov 06, 2006 2:18 am

Quoting CY319 (Reply 4):
u must be joking!!! Moscow and ST Petersburg are beautiful cities with unique monuments that attract millions of tourists from all parts of the world.

They may be beautiful, but have you ever been to Russia? It's not the sort of place that goes out of its way to attract foreigners; in fact, they're so paranoid out there at the moment that aviation photography is likely to result in arrest and interrogation. The complex procedure to simply obtain a visa should be some indication of how much the Russians want you in their country!

As for LCCs, Germany has a far better relationship (so I believe) with the former Soviet Union than many nations, and rules regarding flights from Germany to Russia are far more relaxed than, for instance, UK to Russia. You only have to look at the struggle Cathay have had (and are still having) trying to route their proposed HKG/MAN via MOW.

Karl
 
MYT332
Posts: 7283
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2003 7:31 pm

RE: Low Cost Carriers To Russia From The UK.

Mon Nov 06, 2006 2:21 am

BMI is a low cost carrier is it not? No wait, that's BMIBaby but wait, they have BMIBaby's tiny fares on mainline so they must be an LCC. Wait a second, they can't be low cost though because they have a longhaul product with business but wait, they charge for drinks on that in economy but wait; they do that on the euro mainline fleet too. Hang on, they don't charge for drinks on BMI Regional services though so they can't be an LCC but?

Oh bugger it. Fly BA.
One Life, Live it.
 
traveler_7
Posts: 448
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RE: Low Cost Carriers To Russia From The UK.

Mon Nov 06, 2006 2:31 am

Actually Norwegian already serves St. Petersburg. One way is starting from approximately 90€.

I know quite many people who come to Tallinn from st.Petersburg by bus and then take U2 or some times OV flights and vice verse.
 
RJ100
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RE: Low Cost Carriers To Russia From The UK.

Mon Nov 06, 2006 2:58 am

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 6):
They may be beautiful, but have you ever been to Russia? It's not the sort of place that goes out of its way to attract foreigners; in fact, they're so paranoid out there at the moment that aviation photography is likely to result in arrest and interrogation. The complex procedure to simply obtain a visa should be some indication of how much the Russians want you in their country!

Was walking around in Russia two weeks "tourist style" with camera etc. and was not controlled a single time. If photographing is not allowed on airports then leave it, everyone needs to follow the law as much as the Russians need to follow the laws when they visit Great Britain...
The visa and especially the registration sucks big time but it doesn't change the fact that you will feel a great hospitality there!

Air Berlin is starting flights to Moscow and St. Petersburg too from Germany. Don't forget that there are a lot of Russians in Germany, that's also a reason why you see more flights to/from Russia.

Regards,
RJ100

[Edited 2006-11-05 18:59:54]

[Edited 2006-11-05 19:00:30]
none
 
Pe@rson
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RE: Low Cost Carriers To Russia From The UK.

Mon Nov 06, 2006 3:07 am

Quoting Gilesdavies (Thread starter):
Sorry! - I have just noticed Ryanair do actually operate to Moscow... Kaunas and Riga - Moscow West.

Yet U2 flies to Tallinn, which is far more convenient for LED.  Smile
"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
 
ehho
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RE: Low Cost Carriers To Russia From The UK.

Mon Nov 06, 2006 7:29 am

Quoting CY319 (Reply 4):
u must be joking!!! Moscow and ST Petersburg are beautiful cities with unique monuments that attract millions of tourists from all parts of the world.

I'm not joking. I've lived in Moscow for 8 years, and as JakTrax correctly pointed out, tourists get a hard time there. There are certainly not millions of them. In 2005, RIA Novosti, the state news agency reported 3 million tourists. Knowing the vast amounts of Russians flocking to see their capital, that doesn't leave many foreigners. Getting there is a pain. Moscow still has no tourist offices and the visa system is a nightmare. Having friends over was always a problem. St. Petersburg might just be a little better, but still it's no Prague or Budapest where there are flocks of tourists everywhere.

In Moscow, most tourists still come on organized tours or stay with friends and relatives in the city, as midrange hotels are non-existent, just as cheap flights. The only places where you can see slight concentrations are the Red Square and the Arbat, and again, it's nowhere near the frenzy on Charles' bridge, Vaci utca or Piazza San Marco for that matter.
"Get your facts first. Then you may distort them as much as you please" -- Mark Twain
 
MOW
Posts: 122
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RE: Low Cost Carriers To Russia From The UK.

Mon Nov 06, 2006 8:10 am

Getting Russian visa, especially a tourist one, is not a nightmare. You book a hotel and they send you an invitation instantly and free of charge. Next you pick up your visa at a relative ease. Unfortunately, the procedure to get a Schengen visa for Russians is much more complicated, requires hours of queueing at Embassies and doesn't guarantee any positive outcome.

Back to topic. If I remember correctly, current civil aviation agreement between Russia and UK allows up to 2 carriers from each side to operate routes between the 2 countries. It has been fulfilled with SU/BA/UN/BD now. The carriers have room to expand their traffic, though.
Somehow the agreement between Russia and Germany allows up to 10 carriers from both sides to operate. That is why we see omnipresent LH and a bunch of not-so-low-cost German carriers flying freely to Russia.
Does this mean that Germans were better negotiators and knew how to influence their Russian counterparts?

[Edited 2006-11-06 00:11:46]
 
ehho
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RE: Low Cost Carriers To Russia From The UK.

Mon Nov 06, 2006 8:26 am

Quoting MOW (Reply 12):
Getting Russian visa, especially a tourist one, is not a nightmare.

I didn't say that getting a visa when you've booked an overpriced hotel is a nightmare. But getting one as a private visitor (the kind that an LCC would aim to serve) is. There is similar queueing at the Russian consulate involved, and you have to buy a phony 'invitation' for EUR 40, above the EUR 50 visa fee.

Quoting MOW (Reply 12):
and a bunch of not-so-low-cost German carriers

I recently booked CGN-VKO-CGN with 4U for EUR 145 all-in. Quite lowish I'd say.

Anyway, I agree with you that the Germans have faired better in the negotiations. Perhaps it has to do with the large minorities there, which the Russian gov't seems to want to keep coming to Russia.

[Edited 2006-11-06 00:28:48]
"Get your facts first. Then you may distort them as much as you please" -- Mark Twain
 
cy319
Posts: 368
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2006 11:42 pm

RE: Low Cost Carriers To Russia From The UK.

Mon Nov 06, 2006 8:45 am

Quoting JakTrax (Reply 6):
they're so paranoid out there at the moment that aviation photography is likely to result in arrest and interrogation.

This happens in many countries of the Western world too....

Quoting MOW (Reply 12):
Getting Russian visa, especially a tourist one, is not a nightmare. You book a hotel and they send you an invitation instantly and free of charge. Next you pick up your visa at a relative ease.

So, things are not that dramatic as some a.netters say.  Smile
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ptugarin
Posts: 214
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RE: Low Cost Carriers To Russia From The UK.

Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:09 am

Unfortunately, the reason Russian government imposes visa restrictions on westerners is for retaliatition. I resent retaliation measures and believe visas should exist for sole purpose of migration control. While chances that Germans, Americans and the British flocking into Russia and settling Siberian steppe stay low, visas will only hurt Russian economy and keep budget tourists away.

Off-topic, but do you think LCC activity is possible in Ukraine now that visa restrictions have been lifted?
 
LH648
Posts: 494
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RE: Low Cost Carriers To Russia From The UK.

Mon Nov 06, 2006 4:59 pm

Quoting CY319 (Reply 4):
I believe that one of the reasons why Russia does not attract as many tourists as other 'Eastern' European Countries like the Czech Rep and Hungary is the lack of cheap airfares to/from this market as a result of the current monopolistic-duopolistic situation on most of the routes. LCCs are definately needed over there.

Have you ever been in Russia? It's definately not the country, where you want to return... I fly to Moscow frequently for business trips, I have a lot of friends there, I have relatives in St. Petersburg, I am Russian ethnically. But Russia is not waiting for foreigners. One of the most favourite slogans is "Russia is for Russians, Moscow is for Moscovites". Yes, there are a lot of good people, which are very open. But system is still Soviet. It's not welcoming foreigners. Migration card, which is necessary to fill in on arrival is available only in Russian. Authorities are saying that if you want to enter - learn Russian. Have you ever transfer from Sheremetyevo 2 to Sheremetyevo 1? Russia don't need tourists. They still have a lot of oil.

Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 5):
I appreciate it is not an open market, but how come other EU countries like Germany seem to have a plentiful number on low cost flights to Moscow with the likes of Germanwings and Air Berlin (Germania).

Part of the agreement was that cost will not be so low...

Quoting MOW (Reply 12):
Getting Russian visa, especially a tourist one, is not a nightmare. You book a hotel and they send you an invitation instantly and free of charge. Next you pick up your visa at a relative ease

Have you ever tried to get Russian visa?
 
RJ100
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Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2000 1:37 am

RE: Low Cost Carriers To Russia From The UK.

Mon Nov 06, 2006 5:22 pm

Quoting LH648 (Reply 16):
Have you ever tried to get Russian visa?

Well the visa is really easy to get. The problem is to get this stamp on the migration card if you don't live in a hotel. Did it and will do it again. Basically it takes you two full days running around in the city, going to three different authoorities and more...

I wouldn't say the Russians don't welcome foreigners, it's just the bureaucratic system, the people itself are very friendly, welcoming and show a great hospitality.

And as mentioned before, it sucks too for Russians who want to get a visa for Western Europe. For instance they need to publish their bank accounts or the inviting person needs to write a confirmation letter to cover all expenses etc. It's about the same crap...

Regards,
RJ100

[Edited 2006-11-06 09:23:20]
none
 
MOW
Posts: 122
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 5:41 am

RE: Low Cost Carriers To Russia From The UK.

Mon Nov 06, 2006 6:05 pm

Quoting EHHO (Reply 13):
I recently booked CGN-VKO-CGN with 4U for EUR 145 all-in. Quite lowish I'd say.

Try to book the other way round - it will cost you double! Any LCC will be more than welcome here if allowed to operate freely and apply their own pricing policy. In the meantime, LCCs have nothing to do but obey Russian regulators.
 
LH648
Posts: 494
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:06 pm

RE: Low Cost Carriers To Russia From The UK.

Mon Nov 06, 2006 6:09 pm

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 17):
Well the visa is really easy to get.

To my Georgean colleague they said to go to Georgia and get her visa there, not in Kazakhstan. It was 1.5 years ago, before last events.
My German colleagues usually waits for visa around one month. And consul always want personal interview with them...
May be it's a problem of Russian embassy in Kazakhstan.

My Shengen visa I allways get in 3 days without personal visit to embassy - I simply fill in the form and send it with the driver.

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 17):
it's just the bureaucratic system, the people itself are very friendly, welcoming and show a great hospitality.

I agree. But if system don't want you - should you go and spend your money there? Your case is different, for sure  Wink

Quoting RJ100 (Reply 17):
sucks too for Russians who want to get a visa for Western Europe

I think it's simmetrical answer and is quite normal. The problem is that it's creates problems to the usual people, not to the system.

btw, I think China should introduce arrival forms in Chineese for visitors from Russia...  Smile
 
ehho
Posts: 769
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2005 3:26 am

RE: Low Cost Carriers To Russia From The UK.

Mon Nov 06, 2006 6:16 pm

Quoting LH648 (Reply 19):
btw, I think China should introduce arrival forms in Chineese for visitors from Russia...

Now, what purpose would that serve?? Thank god the Chinese not as childish as Russia. If you really think that, you're just as bad as the Russian government, by trying to punish ordinary people for nothing.
"Get your facts first. Then you may distort them as much as you please" -- Mark Twain
 
LH648
Posts: 494
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 3:06 pm

RE: Low Cost Carriers To Russia From The UK.

Mon Nov 06, 2006 7:38 pm

Quoting EHHO (Reply 20):
Now, what purpose would that serve??

There was a smile after the sentence.

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