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BA And SQ Vie For SUs Lapsed 787 Slots

Thu Nov 09, 2006 6:08 pm

As per the following report;

Limited Fair use Excerpt;

MOSCOW, Nov 7 (Reuters) - Russia's flagship carrier Aeroflot has missed a deadline in an interim agreement with Boeing on delivery of 22 Boeing-787 jets, losing a discount and delaying supply of the planes, an Aeroflot board member told Reuters on Tuesday.

"We had agreed (with Boeing) for a period until Nov. 1, hoping the government would issue its directive. But unfortunately the government sent no directive," Dushatin said.

The lost discount was "just part of the problem", said NRC's Dushatin, adding that the assembly of B787 planes for Aeroflot was being postponed until 2012.

He said British Airways and Singapore Airlines were seeking to buy the planes originally meant to be delivered to Aeroflot


[END - Fair use excerpt http://asia.news.yahoo.com/061107/3/2shi9.html ]

Interesting in that this is the first time that BA have been mentioned as looking for slots and that SQ is still in the hunt for more

Regards, PanAm_DC10
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anstar
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RE: BA And SQ Vie For SUs Lapsed 787 Slots

Thu Nov 09, 2006 6:19 pm

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter):
Interesting in that this is the first time that BA have been mentioned as looking for slots and that SQ is still in the hunt for more

Perhaps SQ are looking to bring theirs forward tather than increae?

Interesting news about BA... that would certainly be lovely news.
 
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RE: BA And SQ Vie For SUs Lapsed 787 Slots

Thu Nov 09, 2006 6:26 pm

Quoting ANstar (Reply 1):
Perhaps SQ are looking to bring theirs forward tather than increae?

That could only apply to the 787-9 which does not enter service until the last month of 2010 with NZ, IIRC. Besides, with 19 A333s being delivered on an "interim" basis as part of their compensation from Airbus, why the need to reduce that commitment? That said, you make a valid point ANstar

But does this point to a BA 787-8 order?

Regards, PanAm_DC10

[EDIT - For BA question]

[Edited 2006-11-09 10:56:09]
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RE: BA And SQ Vie For SUs Lapsed 787 Slots

Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:44 pm

Here is a better link quoting Mr Lebedev who secured the 22 slots to start with, of note, no availablity until 2014

Okulov said in Beijing today that Aeroflot won't be able to get Boeing 787s before 2014 because of the missed deadline, Interfax news service reported.

We still have to rely on the interfax report about BA & SQ but surely a local member could provide some assistance to clarify the report.

BA interested in 2010 787 delivery slots, IMHO, means only one thing, 787-8 order could be in the works.

http://bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=c...=conews&tkr=BA:US&sid=aozzZlg5Jyi0

The story will be updated

Any clarification in this ongoing and drawn out RFP would be appreciated, after all, they've Dubai and DAE to think of now, the pressure is back on Mr Putin.

Regards, PanAm_DC10
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RE: BA And SQ Vie For SUs Lapsed 787 Slots

Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:52 pm

BA could use the the -8 as agreat replacement for the 767s, IMO. Unless they want an increase in capacity over what the 767s have. In that case they may be willing to wait for the -9 or -10.
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RE: BA And SQ Vie For SUs Lapsed 787 Slots

Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:14 pm

My recollection is that the SU slots were starting from early 2010, but that the B787-9 becomes available late 2010. I think some B787-8s would be perfect for increasing frequency on SQ's thin European routes which are now less than daily.
 
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RE: BA And SQ Vie For SUs Lapsed 787 Slots

Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:32 pm

Some one could get a nice big fleet of 22 787-8 sooner then later if they buy the whole lot. Let the bidding begin. If the Price is Right.
 
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RE: BA And SQ Vie For SUs Lapsed 787 Slots

Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:11 pm

Would a spokesman for a Russian banking consortium dealing heavily with Aeroflot have reliable information on the fleet renewal details of another, totally independant, carrier?

In other words, how reliable is this statement about BA and SQ persuing the slots? Why would he have that information?
 
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RE: BA And SQ Vie For SUs Lapsed 787 Slots

Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:16 pm

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 7):
In other words, how reliable is this statement about BA and SQ persuing the slots? Why would he have that information?

Just speculation, but perhaps it was "leaked" by Boeing in an attempt to incentivize SU to make a decision?
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RichardPrice
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RE: BA And SQ Vie For SUs Lapsed 787 Slots

Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:24 pm

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 8):
Just speculation, but perhaps it was "leaked" by Boeing in an attempt to incentivize SU to make a decision?

I think Boeing is more professional than that - they could get into very sticky messes if they did leak and BA took issue (which they probably would).
 
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RE: BA And SQ Vie For SUs Lapsed 787 Slots

Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:34 pm

When did BA place a 787 order or do they have plans to if they can get early slots?
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RE: BA And SQ Vie For SUs Lapsed 787 Slots

Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:41 pm

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 9):
I think Boeing is more professional than that - they could get into very sticky messes if they did leak and BA took issue (which they probably would).

Exactly. To be honest, I have to believe that Boeing has probably had enough of SU and the meddlings of the Russian government for the moment and would prefer to lock up firm deals with whomever in order to place the slots.

Perhaps they could finally get BA to commit to something with these as an incentive.

F4N
 
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RE: BA And SQ Vie For SUs Lapsed 787 Slots

Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:54 pm

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter):
Interesting in that this is the first time that BA have been mentioned as looking for slots and that SQ is still in the hunt for more

Thanks for the link PanAm_DC10... Smile

If BA wants to order some 747-8I's...then I say give the 787 slots to them....afterall, why "reward" a carrier that is favouring the A380 (SQ) over the 747-8I and has for all intent an purposes closed the door to the 747-8I... stirthepot 

Since SQ has already signed for the 787, I would give the slots to BA,as that at least gets them "in the door".....of course, SQ is also a big Boeing customer, but they do have a tendency to switch from "side-to-side" between Boeing and Airbus, where as BA has been a loyal Boeing customer for their widebody planes...

Actually, I have no idea.. spin ..I'm just hoping BA get it... Smile
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Danny
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RE: BA And SQ Vie For SUs Lapsed 787 Slots

Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:57 pm

Kind of weird for Aeroflot board member to reveal that BA or SQ is in negotiations for 787. If that was true that would break any confidentiality rules of trade negotiations. I think they are just playing another round of their game in Moscow.

Aeroflot slots were not early at all as they were only booked few months ago.
 
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RE: BA And SQ Vie For SUs Lapsed 787 Slots

Fri Nov 10, 2006 12:03 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 12):
why "reward" a carrier that is favouring the A380 (SQ) over the 747-8I and has for all intent an purposes closed the door to the 747-8I...

Stir the pot indeed! Hmpf! Tsk tsk!

And why are you never on MSN?

With the A330s coming, I hypothesise that SIA does not need the 787-8 for regional but Zvezda said, a 787-8 flying daily CPH / FCO / BCNMXP / near daily ATH, IST, CAI, DME, would be nice but we hear hardly anything about such a thing happenning so I'm not holding my breathe.

I think this is about moving slots up but I don't think SIA will want to pay much for the "privelege". Depends on how much they value a 787 up to a year earlier (considering some reports indicate a delivery in Dec 2011).
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RE: BA And SQ Vie For SUs Lapsed 787 Slots

Fri Nov 10, 2006 12:32 am

Quoting Danny (Reply 13):
Aeroflot slots were not early at all as they were only booked few months ago.

The SU slots were 2010 to 2012. The latest reports are that the earliest free slots (excluding the freed SU slots) are in 2014.

Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 14):
I think this is about moving slots up but I don't think SIA will want to pay much for the "privelege". Depends on how much they value a 787 up to a year earlier (considering some reports indicate a delivery in Dec 2011).

SQ have publicly stated that their B787s are scheduled for delivery from early 2011 to mid 2013. SQ might want these slots not to move up their current orders but to increase their B787 subfleet in lieu of taking nebulous A350s. I see little advantage to SQ in operating both A350s and B787s.
 
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RE: BA And SQ Vie For SUs Lapsed 787 Slots

Fri Nov 10, 2006 12:36 am

Quoting Danny (Reply 13):
Kind of weird for Aeroflot board member to reveal that BA or SQ is in negotiations for 787. If that was true that would break any confidentiality rules of trade negotiations. I think they are just playing another round of their game in Moscow.

Aeroflot slots were not early at all as they were only booked few months ago.

Yes, it is strange hearing this from a SU board member, maybe some corporate espionnage is going on. It isn't always Boeing or Airbus's fault when something strange/bad happens  Wink. Was there even an order booked a few months ago? Maybe they signed an LOI or MoU way back when to keep a hold of the 2010 slots? I haven't been following the SU flip flops much, maybe someone here can enlighten me.

Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 14):
I think this is about moving slots up but I don't think SIA will want to pay much for the "privelege". Depends on how much they value a 787 up to a year earlier (considering some reports indicate a delivery in Dec 2011).

I think Boeing would be much more eager to sign a new blue-chip customer like BA than to give SQ the privelege of moving up a several slots. But if Boeing can't sign BA or anyone else for that matter, it doesn't hurt to get a few extra $$ from SQ. I think this would be a great opportunity for BA to "get in", IMO the 787 would fit very well in BA's fleet.
 
Ken777
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RE: BA And SQ Vie For SUs Lapsed 787 Slots

Fri Nov 10, 2006 12:42 am

Interesting challenge if it's true.

SQ isn't a "bad" customer for Boeing - they do have a few 777s and they have been very good for Boeing over the years.

But then so has BA, and BA has a major order due in 2007 which is going to be very important for Boeing and Airbus. The slots could be an advantage for Boeing in fighting this battle.

Generally I think that Boeing will put BA ahead of SQ, at least until they are equal with 787 deliveries.

Overall I think that the open slots will mean that Boeing is going to need to walk on eggs a bit - especially if other existing customers start asking to have some of their deliveries moved up.

Finally, I think that this shoes the pressure Boeing is facing with regards to the need to ramp up production, one way or another.
 
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RE: BA And SQ Vie For SUs Lapsed 787 Slots

Fri Nov 10, 2006 12:44 am

Worth noting that this person said that the earliest available slots are for 2014.
I thought Boeing said the earliest available slots are for 2013 as they're sold out through 2012. I wonder if other airlines have come in and put deposits in on the earliest available slots. If so then Boeing effectively has soldone years of production in afew short weeks, assumingthat they turn those deposits into firm final orders.
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RE: BA And SQ Vie For SUs Lapsed 787 Slots

Fri Nov 10, 2006 12:47 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 15):
SQ might want these slots not to move up their current orders but to increase their B787 subfleet in lieu of taking nebulous A350s

Yes the A350 looks a big off doesn't it. However, what do you think if someone proposed the A350 XWB V 3.0 (with composites, carbon fibre and whatever), being a 787 replacement in 2017 or something like that?

SIA have stated that the A350 is for Europe, Australia, Middle East and East Asia. The B787-9s for North Asia, South Asia and Middle East.

With regards to Europe and Australia, I am assuming that the point of the A350-900 XWB is for capacity issues considering the 787-9 has capacity for up to 64 passengers more than the 787-9 (in manufacturer's configuration).

I think what could be interesting is the A350 being dropped (for the current renewal exercise) for the 787-10. I think that would make for a much for exciting time for Boeing which would give SIA some more leverage to get earlier production slots. The 787-10 (I think) is the equiavlent of the A350-900 XWB and is ideal for a European expansion which I've longed for.

Bearing in mind that there are 22 Aeroflot slots, it's not too hard to suggest that they may just damn well be shared between the two or more carriers?
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RE: BA And SQ Vie For SUs Lapsed 787 Slots

Fri Nov 10, 2006 12:49 am

is there a list of allocation of slots?
 
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RE: BA And SQ Vie For SUs Lapsed 787 Slots

Fri Nov 10, 2006 1:40 am

Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 14):
Stir the pot indeed! Hmpf! Tsk tsk!

Can't blame me... Wink

Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 14):

And why are you never on MSN?

Apologies..been so busy with work lately..but I'm going to start logging on more (promise)... Smile

Quoting 787engineer (Reply 16):
I think this would be a great opportunity for BA to "get in", IMO the 787 would fit very well in BA's fleet.



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 12):
I would give the slots to BA,as that at least gets them "in the door"



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 17):
SQ isn't a "bad" customer for Boeing - they do have a few 777s and they have been very good for Boeing over the years.



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 12):
.of course, SQ is also a big Boeing customer



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 17):
But then so has BA, and BA has a major order due in 2007 which is going to be very important for Boeing and Airbus. The slots could be an advantage for Boeing in fighting this battle.



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 12):
where as BA has been a loyal Boeing customer for their widebody planes...

Cheers... Smile
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RE: BA And SQ Vie For SUs Lapsed 787 Slots

Fri Nov 10, 2006 1:55 am

Quoting Danny (Reply 13):
Kind of weird for Aeroflot board member to reveal that BA or SQ is in negotiations for 787. If that was true that would break any confidentiality rules of trade negotiations.

Not only is it strange that he should say this, but the obvious question is how exactly would he know?

If a Boeing salesman said to him "Sign up to keep these slots or lose them. I've got BA & SQ fighting for these slots!" I would consider that to be somewhat unprofessional and un-Boeing like. I can imagine him saying "... I've got two blue-chip customers fighting for these slots!"

Just IMHO.
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RE: BA And SQ Vie For SUs Lapsed 787 Slots

Fri Nov 10, 2006 2:21 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 7):
Would a spokesman for a Russian banking consortium dealing heavily with Aeroflot have reliable information on the fleet renewal details of another, totally independant, carrier?

They are involved in the financing, which probably means that they were able to piece together who exactly wanted to the slots, when they asked Boeing for a extension, and Boeing says "are you kidding?"

Kudos to Boeing however, for resisting the urge to just amp production.
 
RichardPrice
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RE: BA And SQ Vie For SUs Lapsed 787 Slots

Fri Nov 10, 2006 2:25 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 23):
They are involved in the financing, which probably means that they were able to piece together who exactly wanted to the slots, when they asked Boeing for a extension, and Boeing says "are you kidding?"

I doubt a Russian bank would be involved with financing for a British airline, who has access to more healthy financial markets from which they could probably borrow money at a better rate.

I also doubt that if they were involved in financing BA they would have contractual abilities to discuss the activities of their customers and clients with any third party without prior agreement.
 
DAYflyer
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RE: BA And SQ Vie For SUs Lapsed 787 Slots

Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:05 am

I think BA will get the slots.

This is an interesting development. I predeicted a while back that Aeroflop would never buy the 787 with the investment into EADS made by the Russian banks. Look for a 40 odd plane A-350XWB order.
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jacobin777
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RE: BA And SQ Vie For SUs Lapsed 787 Slots

Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:33 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 25):
This is an interesting development. I predeicted a while back that Aeroflop would never buy the 787 with the investment into EADS made by the Russian banks. Look for a 40 odd plane A-350XWB order.

But Russia is doing work on the 787 so it evens things out a bit..
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redflyer
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RE: BA And SQ Vie For SUs Lapsed 787 Slots

Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:42 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 9):
I think Boeing is more professional than that - they could get into very sticky messes if they did leak and BA took issue (which they probably would).



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 22):
Not only is it strange that he should say this, but the obvious question is how exactly would he know?

Maybe BA and SQ approached SU about their slots. Airlines do negotiate amongst each other for delivery slots (pending final approval by the OEM).
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CWFan
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RE: BA And SQ Vie For SUs Lapsed 787 Slots

Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:51 am

Just checking: Did Boeing ever book as firm orders the Aeroflot 787s?
 
Lumberton
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RE: BA And SQ Vie For SUs Lapsed 787 Slots

Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:55 am

Quoting CWFan (Reply 28):
Just checking: Did Boeing ever book as firm orders the Aeroflot 787s?

No, they did not.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
airfrnt
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RE: BA And SQ Vie For SUs Lapsed 787 Slots

Fri Nov 10, 2006 5:38 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 24):

I doubt a Russian bank would be involved with financing for a British airline, who has access to more healthy financial markets from which they could probably borrow money at a better rate.

No. Involved in financing SU's bid.
 
Glom
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RE: BA And SQ Vie For SUs Lapsed 787 Slots

Fri Nov 10, 2006 6:03 am

It looks like airlines are breaking down the doors of Chicago to get at the Airbus's Worst Nightmareliner.
 
airlineaddict
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RE: BA And SQ Vie For SUs Lapsed 787 Slots

Fri Nov 10, 2006 6:21 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 9):
I think Boeing is more professional than that - they could get into very sticky messes if they did leak and BA took issue (which they probably would).

What about Farnborough and a certain Mr. Al-Baker?  stirthepot   wink 
 
jacobin777
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RE: BA And SQ Vie For SUs Lapsed 787 Slots

Fri Nov 10, 2006 6:25 am

Quoting Glom (Reply 31):
It looks like airlines are breaking down the doors of Chicago to get at the Airbus's Worst Nightmareliner.

You mean the "Chinese copy of an A330"?  Wink
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Yellowstone
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RE: BA And SQ Vie For SUs Lapsed 787 Slots

Fri Nov 10, 2006 7:33 am

So does anyone have a sense of what sort of premium BA would pay to get the earlier slots as opposed to going to the back of the line like everyone else? Or would Boeing cut them a deal to encourage them to place the order at all?

I'm hoping they'd go to BA, since I'd like to see as many airlines as possible flying the 787. Any idea what part of the world they would fly them to? Underserved US locations, I hope?
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planetime
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RE: BA And SQ Vie For SUs Lapsed 787 Slots

Fri Nov 10, 2006 8:49 am

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 34):
Or would Boeing cut them a deal to encourage them to place the order at all?

That would make business sense.

Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 19):
The 787-10 (I think) is the equiavlent of the A350-900 XWB and is ideal for a European expansion which I've longed for.

What is the status on both these project? 350 forget about it.... every week new story. 787-10 is Boeing comminted to it or not. I thought EK was forcing them to make it. But really no news from that camp.
 
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Stitch
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RE: BA And SQ Vie For SUs Lapsed 787 Slots

Fri Nov 10, 2006 9:04 am

Quoting Planetime (Reply 35):
787-10 is Boeing comminted to it or not?

Boeing is committed to it. The hang-up appears to be trying to give it sufficient payload and range to meet customer requirements within the current MTOW of the undercarriage. If they can't, then they'll need to decide whether to go with a 777-style six-wheel main bogey or a two-wheel centerline bogey ala the A346/MD11.
 
Danny
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RE: BA And SQ Vie For SUs Lapsed 787 Slots

Fri Nov 10, 2006 10:19 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 15):
The SU slots were 2010 to 2012. The latest reports are that the earliest free slots (excluding the freed SU slots) are in 2014.

Am I missing something? Wasn't Aeroflot slots booked in September? Since there was no huge deals for hundreds of 787s since then, what happened to slots 2012-2014?
 
dank
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RE: BA And SQ Vie For SUs Lapsed 787 Slots

Fri Nov 10, 2006 10:31 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 36):
Boeing is committed to it. The hang-up appears to be trying to give it sufficient payload and range to meet customer requirements within the current MTOW of the undercarriage.

 checkmark  I think that we are seeing that neither the 787-10 nor the 350 are exactly what the customers want (they want the best of both) and since there isn't a lot of pressure to buy now in that space (i.e. if the right plane was their the airlines would commit, but they don't feel they need to buy anything quite yet, considering that things may improve with the opposite manufacturer). Time will tell how things fall into place.

Quoting Danny (Reply 37):
Am I missing something? Wasn't Aeroflot slots booked in September? Since there was no huge deals for hundreds of 787s since then, what happened to slots 2012-2014?

Is it possible that when Boeing incrementally increased production rates that slots opened up in the middle? That is, they increased the production rate, but didn't move everybody up. For some airlines, the finances wouldn't be in place to pay earlier, so it may be in their benefit not to have the aircraft earlier.

cheers.

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