kaitak
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Happy 21st - Another Overdose Of Irish Aviation!

Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:08 am

'Evening all and welcome on board for another Irish Aviation Thread. Hope you enjoy! And please make sure everyone else does too!

Please note, as said previously, these threads have one key theme - over and above Irish aviation and that's ENJOYMENT. We're here because we're passionately interested in and committed to Irish aviation (and indeed, aviation generally), BUT primarily, we're here to enjoy ourselves. Everyone has different perspectives and different experience and interests in different part of aviation, but it should definitely have a common thread, which is fun and enjoyment.

So, let's pass over the blather I usually give about this week's key topics and issues and move straight into the thread ... BUT remember, "Never post in anger and always take the high road" (and I'll in Scotland afore ye!)
 
Toulouse
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RE: Happy 21st - Another Overdose Of Irish Aviation!

Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:11 am

Happy 21st Irish aviation opinion sharing to ALL!!

May post again later (on aviation matters) after dinner if my wife lets me, yet to be honest, hopefully she won't and we'll occupy ourselves otherwise... So if all goes according to plan this Friday evening here in Toulouse, I Toulouse will be bach to chat with you all over the weekend.
Long live Aer Lingus!
 
ikramerica
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RE: Happy 21st - Another Overdose Of Irish Aviation!

Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:32 am

You guys sure to write a lot about Irish aviation in a short amount of time.

Might I suggest:

Catch 22-
23 Skadoo-
"24" tick, tick, tick-

I was going to suggest: BLACKJACK!! The 21st Irish Aviation Thread, but before I could, you already started it up!!

Have fun.

:D
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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shamrock350
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RE: Happy 21st - Another Overdose Of Irish Aviation!

Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:40 am

Just a reminder for those with ITV. "Life of Ryan" will be on at 8pm. It's a program about FR and it's bid for Aer Lingus but mainly about MOL I think.
Thanks for that Toulouse LOL!  gasp 
(Happy 21st Irish Av.)
 
kaitak
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RE: Happy 21st - Another Overdose Of Irish Aviation!

Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:57 am

Interesting game of "wait and see" as well today, as EI shares fall below the €2.80 mark and head towards €2.70. Investment managers are split as to what is going to happen; while he appeared to concede defeat a few days ago and certainly hasn't made any movements today, there is a convincing argument that (a) he is just letting the price go further and (b) that he is doing this not just to get more shares at a lower price, but to show those who have bought at a higher price just how much they can lose. (How much has Denis O'Brien lost - if I were mean, I'd say "is the Maltese cross"?, but luckily I'm not!)

We've discussed this backwards and forwards over the past month or so and I guess a bit of fatigue has set in, but it will be interesting to see what happens in a situation like this!
 
Poitin
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RE: Happy 21st - Another Overdose Of Irish Aviation!

Sat Nov 11, 2006 5:09 am

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 4):
Interesting game of "wait and see" as well today, as EI shares fall below the €2.80 mark and head towards €2.70. Investment managers are split as to what is going to happen; while he appeared to concede defeat a few days ago and certainly hasn't made any movements today, there is a convincing argument that (a) he is just letting the price go further and (b) that he is doing this not just to get more shares at a lower price, but to show those who have bought at a higher price just how much they can lose. (How much has Denis O'Brien lost - if I were mean, I'd say "is the Maltese cross"?, but luckily I'm not!)

Yeap.

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 4):
We've discussed this backwards and forwards over the past month or so and I guess a bit of fatigue has set in, but it will be interesting to see what happens in a situation like this!

Yeap.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
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shamrock350
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RE: Happy 21st - Another Overdose Of Irish Aviation!

Sat Nov 11, 2006 5:49 am

I just saw "Life of Ryan:Tonight" and it was crap to be honest, half an hour of bashing FR and mentioning nothing about Aer Lingus, the take over and only five minutes on MOL. The only bit I liked was a song which went, "Fly BA, Aer Lingus or Virgin. As for Ryanair I'd sooner bloody swim". Other than that it was a very poor version of the Channel 4 program.
Here's FRs response.
http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/news....r=06&month=nov&story=gen-en-111106
 
Poitin
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RE: Happy 21st - Another Overdose Of Irish Aviation!

Sat Nov 11, 2006 5:54 am

Quoting Shamrock350 (Reply 6):
As for Ryanair I'd sooner bloody swim". Other than that it was a very poor version of the Channel 4 program.
Here's FRs response.

Thank you. It didn't take them long to post it, did it?
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
EI787
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RE: Happy 21st - Another Overdose Of Irish Aviation!

Sat Nov 11, 2006 5:56 am

Quoting Shamrock350 (Reply 6):

I agree! It was basically a few people talking about their bad experiences and nothing more. I too was expecting more about the EI takeover bid.
 
Poitin
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RE: Happy 21st - Another Overdose Of Irish Aviation!

Sat Nov 11, 2006 6:14 am

Quoting EI787 (Reply 8):
I agree! It was basically a few people talking about their bad experiences and nothing more. I too was expecting more about the EI takeover bid.

It is interesting that FR refuse to have a recorded interview, but insisted on a live and unedited one. It sounds like Tonight has abused previous interviews and FR was not going to sucker for one. Is this the case?
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
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shamrock350
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RE: Happy 21st - Another Overdose Of Irish Aviation!

Sat Nov 11, 2006 6:17 am

I was actually watching it at school as there was an open evening I had to help out. My geography teacher is a new teacher from Ireland and we get on being the only two Irish people in the school. His brother is a pilot for FR and he says his brother loves his job and that he does work a lot of hours but so do many other airline employees and pay is good. I have never heard an FR employee complain on TV or anywhere apart from today on that program where an FA said they didn’t even have a five minute break in 12 hours but she said she loved getting up and working for FR.
I am no fan of FR or MOL but when you here that employees don’t enjoy their job it’s concerning and sometimes its just a lie.
 
EI321
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RE: Happy 21st - Another Overdose Of Irish Aviation!

Sat Nov 11, 2006 6:47 am

Missed this thread so i'll post my last reply from thread 20:


Quoting Smokeyrosco (Reply 77):
Quoting Poitin (Reply 72):
I believe it is also available at Easons.

Is that the actual store or the online version, which is just amazon in drag.

Quoting Smokeyrosco (Reply 77):
Smokeyrosco

Im not getting involved but if anybody has a problem there are moderators to refer to. And I do recall a similar situation arrising on the Irish threads less than a year ago.

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 80):
Incidentally, I see from PPRUNE that EI 330s going into the shop for overhaul over Christmas will be refitted with new IFE and the new aircraft delivered next year will also be delivered with "bells and whistles" (so to speak), so it looks as if they're getting the message on that front

Great if it happens but Ive lost all optimism with the EI IFE roumers that Ive been reading on pprune for ages. Better I'll take a peek meself......

Quoting Poitin (Reply 81):
Obviously, MOL made a commitment to EI, and now he is well and truly struck.

I dont think the investment in EI has been regrettable for FR. Sure the takeover failed but Ryanair can easily sell out if they want. If they keep the shares, then we can take it as a signal that Ryanair are happier to be a minority shareholder in EI, than not a shareholder at all, and they still consider it a worthwhile investment.

Quoting Poitin (Reply 81):
As Kaitak pointed out several times, the short haul LLC model will not work with long haul. People want to have food, water, entertainment, and a seat back the reclines at least a little if they going to be stuck in a A330 for five or six hours. On the other hand, if you are going to be on a 737 for just an hour, you can pretty much put up with anything -- if the price is right.

The current FR model cant translate into longhaul for several reasons but I think you are missing a few. Turnaround is one. A 737 can easily do 8 s/h rotations per day but with the longer l/h sectors the planes themselves show a lower ROI on their aquisition cost. I think entertainment would be easily sold on l/h flights, as could food.

[Edited 2006-11-10 22:55:51]
 
Poitin
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RE: Happy 21st - Another Overdose Of Irish Aviation!

Sat Nov 11, 2006 7:33 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 11):
The current FR model cant translate into longhaul for several reasons but I think you are missing a few. Turnaround is one.

What I was referring to was Kaitak's often repeated comments that he didn't think people would put up with the lack of amenities of a typical FR s/h on a long haul, which I agree with.

You are quite right that the entire economics is also different, not to mention overnighting the crew, additional maintenance facilities, etc.

In addition, I am not certain that there is one sized aircraft that would fit the needs of a typical long haul. Most long haul fleets contain a number of different model aircraft.

However, the idea of a No Frills Long Haul, with pay for view and such does seem to have some merit. I've been playing with it for a while, and my conclusion is I think I would rather fly a more traditional airline, particularly if I can do a point-to-point long haul flight instead of going to a hub-spoke arrangement.

I suspect that there is room in the market for both approaches and people will chose what they are happiest with.

Quoting EI321 (Reply 11):
Obviously, MOL made a commitment to EI, and now he is well and truly struck.

I dont think the investment in EI has been regrettable for FR. Sure the takeover failed but Ryanair can easily sell out if they want. If they keep the shares, then we can take it as a signal that Ryanair are happier to be a minority shareholder in EI, than not a shareholder at all, and they still consider it a worthwhile investment.

The comment was in relation to MOL doing a "MyWay". He really can't if he owns EI stock. The question is what happens next, and that is what the debate is about. In fact, I doubt if even MOL knows. It will be an interesting two months.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
kaitak
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RE: Happy 21st - Another Overdose Of Irish Aviation!

Sat Nov 11, 2006 1:23 pm

There's an interesting article in today's IT about Pat Byrne's comments on EI and FR. It's quite objective, I feel, because PB is no fan of FR's style, but he does have a lot of positive things to say. In particular, he says EI is being naive in the way it's handling the FR situation and that it doesn't see the big picture. FR's future, he says, is more secure than EI's.

I think this is something we've been saying all along. PB also says EI should take some of FR's aircraft and replace its A320s. I can see the sense of that, but I'm very uneasy about EI become an FR clone. I think there is a market for a level of service which isn't right at the very bottom of everything. Yes, there is profitability to think of, but still, people fly EI and in greater numbers. If EI can hack away at costs, but still provide a decent level of service? When one looks at the numbers, sure, FR wins, BUT thinking as a customer, I think it's good to have choice, BUT furthermore, when I think of the opportunities out there, I think they should definitely be working together.

All the factors are in play to make this work; FR has said EI will continue to exist as a separate entity, MO'L clearly wants to get into long haul and work WITH EI to do this. DM is clearly against this, but I think when you look at the wider picture, this is the best way to go. One of my biggest fears in all of this is that in 5-10 years time, we'll realise what potential we had within our grasp - to FINALLY make DUB a working, successful transatlantic hub, but because we were focused on pettiness and the short term, we missed it. I know I sound like a broken record player, but we have SUCH a terrible record in missing opportunities and much as I love EI, if it's a choice between their independence and making the wider picture work, I'd choose the wider picture, i.e. MAKING EI see the bigger picture, whatever it takes.
 
dstc47
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RE: Happy 21st - Another Overdose Of Irish Aviation!

Sat Nov 11, 2006 6:26 pm

A no frills long haul - been there, done that, it was called Laker Airlines.

They charged for meals on the Atlantic and if I recall correctly the very limited IFE also.

EI economy transatlantic is pretty low frills at present, hell even charging for checked baggage, which Laker did not, if my memory of them is correct.
 
Poitin
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RE: Happy 21st - Another Overdose Of Irish Aviation!

Sun Nov 12, 2006 12:04 am

Quoting Dstc47 (Reply 14):
A no frills long haul - been there, done that, it was called Laker Airlines.

They charged for meals on the Atlantic and if I recall correctly the very limited IFE also.

True. Freddy died just a couple years ago. He was a true dreamer and had the skill to make it happen.

Good story about him here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laker_Airways
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
jwmd123
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RE: Happy 21st - Another Overdose Of Irish Aviation!

Sun Nov 12, 2006 1:14 am

Quoting Dstc47 (Reply 14):
EI economy transatlantic is pretty low frills at present, hell even charging for checked baggage, which Laker did not, if my memory of them is correct.

I thought charges for checked baggage are only shorthaul.

Fuel charge on long haul, none on short haul.
 
EI787
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RE: Happy 21st - Another Overdose Of Irish Aviation!

Sun Nov 12, 2006 1:16 am

Quoting JWMD123 (Reply 16):
I thought charges for checked baggage are only shorthaul.

Yes, you're right:

Quote:
Those checking in baggage will be liable for baggage charges on short haul routes effective for bookings made after August 8th 2006 for travel after January 17th 2007. A fee of €4 per bag will apply if booked in advance on the web, while a fee of €8 per bag will apply if checked-in at the airport. Passengers can pay for this facility on-line from early December, thus saving money and time at the airport.

aerlingus.com
 
Toulouse
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RE: Happy 21st - Another Overdose Of Irish Aviation!

Sun Nov 12, 2006 2:10 am

Quoting EI787 (Reply 17):
Quote:
Those checking in baggage will be liable for baggage charges on short haul routes effective for bookings made after August 8th 2006 for travel after January 17th 2007. A fee of €4 per bag will apply if booked in advance on the web, while a fee of €8 per bag will apply if checked-in at the airport. Passengers can pay for this facility on-line from early December, thus saving money and time at the airport.

aerlingus.com

I was just thinking about this, as I just booked flights between BOD and DUB with EI online and at no time was I asked if I intended bringing cheked in luggage and the opportunity to pay for it online, so does this mean that I'll be charged €8 at the airport, and is on each flight or €8 per ticket?
Long live Aer Lingus!
 
kaitak
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RE: Happy 21st - Another Overdose Of Irish Aviation!

Sun Nov 12, 2006 2:21 am

I would think that if you were not asked or given the choice on the web, you can't be charged at the airport.

Just caught a posting on PPRUNE; apparently, the new J Class product is being launched this Winter, which will include new seating screens and service; more details, no doubt, soon.

However, I hope they don't forget Y Class ... they're falling behind there too.
 
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shamrock350
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RE: Happy 21st - Another Overdose Of Irish Aviation!

Sun Nov 12, 2006 2:23 am

Toulouse, does it have any mention on the "manage booking" section of EI. I thought that's where all payments and changes could be made on aerlingus.com and is there anything on your paper ticket?
 
smokeyrosco
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RE: Happy 21st - Another Overdose Of Irish Aviation!

Sun Nov 12, 2006 3:00 am

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 18):
I was just thinking about this, as I just booked flights between BOD and DUB with EI online and at no time was I asked if I intended bringing cheked in luggage and the opportunity to pay for it online, so does this mean that I'll be charged €8 at the airport, and is on each flight or €8 per ticket?

I assume at the very least they would email you giving the option if there was a charge.
John Hancock
 
smokeyrosco
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RE: Happy 21st - Another Overdose Of Irish Aviation!

Sun Nov 12, 2006 3:05 am

never mind

Quote:
If you are travelling on or after the 17th January 2007 and your original booking was made after the 9th August 2006 then new baggage fees and rules will apply to your journey.
Details are as follows:

Checked-In Baggage:

Pay online prior to day of departure:
€4 fee for every bag checked in for each flight.
(Facility to pay online will be available from December 2006.)

www.aerlingus.ie

[Edited 2006-11-11 19:09:17]
John Hancock
 
EI787
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RE: Happy 21st - Another Overdose Of Irish Aviation!

Sun Nov 12, 2006 3:06 am

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 18):
I was just thinking about this, as I just booked flights between BOD and DUB with EI online and at no time was I asked if I intended bringing cheked in luggage and the opportunity to pay for it online, so does this mean that I'll be charged €8 at the airport, and is on each flight or €8 per ticket?

Toulouse,

The baggage charge will be only applied to you if you will be travelling after January 17th.

The ability to pay for your baggage in advance will be available on the website from December, so you will have plenty of time to pay for your checked luggage next month.

EI787
 
Toulouse
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RE: Happy 21st - Another Overdose Of Irish Aviation!

Sun Nov 12, 2006 4:25 am

Thanks all of you for clearing that up for me.

Well as you can see I'm being my typical EI loyal flyer, and instead of the 45 minute drive to Carcassonne to take FR (as EI don't fly to TLS in winter), I prefer to do the 2.5/3 hour drive to Bordeaux and fly Aer Lingus. Am I crazy or crazy??
Long live Aer Lingus!
 
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shamrock350
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RE: Happy 21st - Another Overdose Of Irish Aviation!

Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:05 am

I'd do the same thing Toulouse!  bigthumbsup 

I got bored today (should have been studying but oh well) and I decided to draw some of my dream Premier class seats.
Here's one of them. It could be a flat bed but I can't draw that very well.
Big version: Width: 473 Height: 674 File size: 60kb


Quoting Kaitak (Reply 19):
Just caught a posting on PPRUNE; apparently, the new J Class product is being launched this Winter, which will include new seating screens and service; more details, no doubt, soon.

I thought EI were still just looking at the idea of improving Premier class, it's good to hear that they could be near a final design ready for launch!
 
kaitak
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RE: Happy 21st - Another Overdose Of Irish Aviation!

Sun Nov 12, 2006 10:06 am

Interesting article in today's Sunday Business Post:

http://www.thepost.ie/post/pages/p/s...D-qqqm=news-qqqid=18790-qqqx=1.asp

Basic points:-

- Dubai route doing a lot better; it took some time to "bed down" due to name recognition; Summer was difficult because of extreme high temperatures. (The one point they didn't mention was that the timing was changed for the Winter, which I think has had a pretty dramatic effect on loads, which are now in the 80% region).

- Minister to make another attempt to get approval for new US access. Generally thought (as predicted here, see last thread) that election of Democrats - as good news as it was in other ways - would put the kibosh on O/S. The article does suggest that granting new access to Ireland might cause competitive problems for other countries, which I have to say is nonsense; NO other country has a bilateral as insanely anti-competitive, backward and restrictive as ours. Virtually every other country (apart from Greece, I think, but they have Olympic, so it probably wouldn't make a difference anyway) has pretty close to Open Skies - even the UK is far more liberal, so arguing that giving us increased access wouldn't make the slightest difference to them.
 
dstc47
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RE: Happy 21st - Another Overdose Of Irish Aviation!

Sun Nov 12, 2006 6:00 pm

The October edition of the Luxair in flight magazine, still on the aircraft this week, had a feature on their winter flight schedule.

It was explicitly stated that the LUX / MAN / DUB / MAN / LUX service had been a cause for concern for some considerable time and only a late pick up in traffic had saved it from cancellation this winter.
 
pilot21
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RE: Happy 21st - Another Overdose Of Irish Aviation!

Sun Nov 12, 2006 8:42 pm

Quoting Dstc47 (Reply 27):
It was explicitly stated that the LUX / MAN / DUB / MAN / LUX service had been a cause for concern for some considerable time and only a late pick up in traffic had saved it from cancellation this winter.

I'd wonder about the pax numbers purely because of the routing. While my knowledge of roads in and out of LUX aren't great, I'm sure it is almost as easy and quicker to grab a non-stop EI flight to AMS or BRU and hire a car?
Aircraft I've flown: A300/A310/A320/A321/A330/A340/B727/B732/B733/B734/B735/B738/B741/B742/B744/DC10/MD80/IL62/Bae146/AR
 
kaitak
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RE: Happy 21st - Another Overdose Of Irish Aviation!

Sun Nov 12, 2006 8:50 pm

Luxair is said to be replacing its EMB-145s with Dash 8-Q400s in the near future (next year, I think), so maybe that will improve things. I wonder if a direct DUB-LUX service with these aircraft might make a difference; I'd imagine this would be popular with civil servants/MEPs and various related travellers.

Certainly, the roads to/from Brussels and/or AMS are very good; perhaps even a rail link from CDG or FRA/AMS/DUS?
 
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shamrock350
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RE: Happy 21st - Another Overdose Of Irish Aviation!

Mon Nov 13, 2006 12:04 am

Has anyone noticed that the A330 seat maps on aerlingus.com are missing? I think they have been gone since the seat selection was added.

Any news on the new J product Kaitak?

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 19):
However, I hope they don't forget Y Class ... they're falling behind there too.

I still think that the seats are comfy and fine for long-haul flight but they are falling apart and looking old. If EI could get the same levels of comfort with an updated look and with no yellow seats I will be very happy!
 
BestWestern
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RE: Happy 21st - Another Overdose Of Irish Aviation!

Mon Nov 13, 2006 1:45 am

Quoting Pilot21 (Reply 28):
I'd wonder about the pax numbers purely because of the routing. While my knowledge of roads in and out of LUX aren't great, I'm sure it is almost as easy and quicker to grab a non-stop EI flight to AMS or BRU and hire a car?

Luxair are also advertising the connections at LUX ex DUB in the OAG flight guide.
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
kaitak
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RE: Happy 21st - Another Overdose Of Irish Aviation!

Mon Nov 13, 2006 4:54 am

Quoting Shamrock350 (Reply 30):
Any news on the new J product Kaitak?

All I know is what I've said above - i.e. Winter! However, I think that they will make sure that as many aircraft as possible are refitted in time for the Summer season, although realistically, I think that will be 332s rather than 333s. What I'm really waiting for - apart from PTVs in Y Class - is the announcement on the new fleet, which is way behind schedule. In fairness, of course, Airbus's problems aren't helping and the fact that Airbus changed to the A350XWB and now can't even decide if that's going to happen, has caused delays. I think, at this stage, Aer Lingus - along with other carriers - are just going to decide, "look, stuff this, we'll go with someone we know will deliver what they agree to and when they agree to provide it".

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if EI decided to start with 787-8s, although there has been an expectation that they'd prefer -9s. Although slightly shorter than the 332, it is wider and can carry just as many pax. And, if they did deals with ILFC and perhaps even for Aeroflots' 787 slots, they might be able to get them earlier than planned. However, all just speculation and we just have to see what they do. The most important thing, as I've said many times, is to get the transatlantic access, which is why I was pleased to see the article in today's SBP (see above).
 
smokeyrosco
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RE: Happy 21st - Another Overdose Of Irish Aviation!

Mon Nov 13, 2006 5:43 am

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 32):
I think that will be 332s rather than 333s.

I'd also argue that they now have competition on new york (more so) and Chicago direct into DUB, (anyone know is AA is going to continue with the BOS service?) So I think EI would be mad not to do a clean sweep. It's Seven aircraft only it's not a huge feet, what is it? a weeks work on each.

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 32):
It wouldn't surprise me in the least if EI decided to start with 787-8s,

At this stage I wouldn't be surprised following on from someone else recently on here if they ended up ordering around 10 more 330's now for the next 15 years. Then to further that in 5 - 8 years time ordering NG longhaulers to replace the current 330's and also expand on what is there all ready. I guess we'll see what will happen over the coming year.
John Hancock
 
Poitin
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RE: Happy 21st - Another Overdose Of Irish Aviatio

Mon Nov 13, 2006 5:57 am

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 32):
I think, at this stage, Aer Lingus - along with other carriers - are just going to decide, "look, stuff this, we'll go with someone we know will deliver what they agree to and when they agree to provide it".

Unfortunately true, unless Airbus can do something else. There has been some speculation on the A330E, which is nothing more than the A350 Mk 1, or a 330 with the 787 engines. Such a development is low risk, fairly cheap and would give the 330 a midlife kicker that it needs at this point.

I have been reading Bloomberg and there is quite a bit of noise about the bond rating for EDAS going down, making borrowed money more expensive. I seriously doubt that Boeing is going to let the European governments do another loan with out a major WTO fight, so it may well be the EDAS has a serious problem financing the A350XWB.

That means the A330E may be a possibility. It would make sense to me even if I were MOL in charge of a conquered EI to have a chat with Airbus about the 330E for EI. And while an inferior aircraft to the 787, it may be available sooner and cheaper, and at the end of the day, that counts, not to mention EI already knows how to handle the A330.

It is significant that Airbus has not committed to the A350XWB, nor even defined what it actually will be -- if anything. Hopefully, they will do something soon.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
aerarann
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RE: Happy 21st - Another Overdose Of Irish Aviation!

Mon Nov 13, 2006 6:45 am

Just two quick questions,

Whats J Class?

Whats PPRUNE?

Thanks in advance
 
EI787
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RE: Happy 21st - Another Overdose Of Irish Aviation!

Mon Nov 13, 2006 6:48 am

Quoting AerArann (Reply 35):
Whats J Class?

Normally Business Class.

Quoting AerArann (Reply 35):
Whats PPRUNE?

http://www.pprune.org

(Professional Pilots Rumour Network)

Basically a big forum website for aviation, much like A.net
 
vfw614
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RE: Happy 21st - Another Overdose Of Irish Aviation!

Mon Nov 13, 2006 7:26 pm

I would not be surprised if this has been brought up in Vol. 1 - 20, but I shall dare to ask anyway (just for the sake of a totally Ryanair/Aer Lingus-free post).

What are the most likely strategic moves by Aer Arann ? Will they try to grow by

- expanding across the Irish Sea from "secondary" Irish airports like they have down at GWY? There is not that much left with a decent catchment area, but Waterford, Sligo, Kerry and Knock might provide at least some growth potential.

- increasing frequencies on their established network?

- grow outside the box by establishing a base somewhere on the continent like they planned a while at LGG - or even somewhere in the UK now that Flybe will need to concentrate on integrating BACON and probably be less focused on additional regional bases?
 
kaitak
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RE: Happy 21st - Another Overdose Of Irish Aviation!

Mon Nov 13, 2006 9:22 pm

Hi Vfw614,
I don't know for certain, but I think there is a lot of potential, when you consider that the smallest aircraft operated by EI and FR is around 180 seats; an airline operating 40-70 seaters, especially prop aircraft, should be able to get into those more marginal destinations where others can't; for example, I live in Jersey, which has a considerable Irish population among a total population of about 80-90k. We have a seasonal EI route, 3 times a week, but having to go through UK airports is a pain; an ATR would be ideal. That's just one example. I am sure there are many, many regional destinations which could benefit from an aircraft of this size.

What I think will be most interesting to watch, however, will be competition between Flybe (with its Dash 8-Q400s) and Aer Arann; in an Open Skies environment, BE could quite easily go onto Irish domestic routes and it has already started routes to Galway, so expect to see a lot of competition on this front. I see a very bright future for Irish domestic and regional routes as a result of this competition.
 
vfw614
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RE: Happy 21st - Another Overdose Of Irish Aviation!

Mon Nov 13, 2006 9:49 pm

Does Aer Arann intend to keep the ATR42s or will they go as soon as the new ATR72-500s come online ? I think quite a few routes are well served with a 48seater and do not warrant an ATR72 - OTOH, AerArann has not ordered any ATR42-500s.
 
EI321
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RE: Happy 21st - Another Overdose Of Irish Aviation!

Mon Nov 13, 2006 9:59 pm

Out of interest Kaitak, what route to you use when the EI service is not around?

In unrelated news, Eirjet are officially going into Liquidation, with debts of €14m. Bernard Healy, the airlines main investor has declined an option of investing a further €10m to help the financially troubled airline. The airline was formally wound up at a meeting with the companys creditors last week. Those owed money include: The Revenue Commissioners (€260000), Former employees (€342000), 20% shareholder Conor Clarkson (€475000), Investors Cheltnaham Partnership (€1.2m), Travel Agent Bernard Healy (€1.7m), Eurocontrol [the european organisation for air navagation safety] (€2.5m).

The companys CEO, Paul Schultz, told creditors that Eirjet began to run into difficulties earlier this year, following the collapse of a leasing deal with Mandala airlines of Indoneasia.
 
bx737
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RE: Happy 21st - Another Overdose Of Irish Aviation!

Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:03 pm

Quoting EI321 (Reply 40):
The companys CEO, Paul Schultz, told creditors that Eirjet began to run into difficulties earlier this year, following the collapse of a leasing deal with Mandala airlines of Indoneasia.

Bearing in mind how many aircraft they were leasing in I'm not surprised they were in difficulty. EI-DOZ was painted up in Mandala livery and I remember reading somewhere that the Mandala deal failed as the aircraft was impounded in SNN on the cessation of operations by Eirjet.

All that aside it is sad for those who were working for Eirjet. I hope they will get new jobs soon.
 
smokeyrosco
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RE: Happy 21st - Another Overdose Of Irish Aviation!

Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:10 pm

Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 39):
Does Aer Arann intend to keep the ATR42s or will they go as soon as the new ATR72-500s come online ? I think quite a few routes are well served with a 48seater and do not warrant an ATR72 - OTOH, AerArann has not ordered any ATR42-500s.

I know they plan to replace some of the existing aircraft although they never made it clear which ones. I'd imagine they will standardise on the 72's as it makes sense for replacing aircraft when something goes tech.
John Hancock
 
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shamrock350
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RE: Happy 21st - Another Overdose Of Irish Aviation!

Tue Nov 14, 2006 2:08 am

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 32):
I think that will be 332s rather than 333s. What I'm really waiting for - apart from PTVs in Y Class - is the announcement on the new fleet

I think Aer Lingus are waiting to announce the new fleet order before they announce the new product that's why I think we have been told "winter". I agree with Smokeyrosco about Aer Lingus ordering 10 more A330s. It seems the most likely situation now but I could also see EI ordering those 4 A330s for 2008 that DM mentioned and then a maybe after that ordering the 787-8/9. That is if Airbus don't make their mind up about the XWB and 330E. If tomorrow Airbus announced that they will go ahead with the XWB and A330E everything could change and Boeing could loose the order which looks very likely this winter for EI.
 
kaitak
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RE: Happy 21st - Another Overdose Of Irish Aviation!

Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:14 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 40):
Out of interest Kaitak, what route to you use when the EI service is not around?

I'm actually heading over to Shannon this Thursday for my little Godson's first birthday! I'm taking BA up to LGW, then that *&^%$**!! bus to Heathrow (we lost our JER-LHR link a few years ago) and then, LHR-SNN with EI; there is a mid afternoon FR flight, but the schedule doesn't really suit as I'd have to take a whole day. At Christmas, I'm flying via BHX, with Flybe and EI. I thought it might be an EMB-195 on one of the JER-BHX/vv flights, but it's a Dash 8. It really would be so much more convenient to get a flight home directly; one option I was looking at is whether RE could fly JER-ORK (they had this route this Summer); if they did, they could time it in such a way as to offer connections to DUB, GWY and BHD.

Quoting Shamrock350 (Reply 43):
If tomorrow Airbus announced that they will go ahead with the XWB and A330E everything could change and Boeing could lose the order which looks very likely this winter for EI.

Ah yes, but look at it this way, it's a whole new world out there and EI has to answer to shareholders, including FR. Given the way Airbus has carried out over the past two years and its recent record with new products and Boeing's record, combined with the ability of FR to help EI get a good deal on long haul aircraft, I still think the smart money's on Boeing. What happens if Airbus messes things up again; I wouldn't want to be the CEO who has to stand before shareholders and say "they gave us a great deal, but there's just one teesny, tiny problem: they're delaying it two years (or whatever); remember that if Airbus says that the 350 is delayed until 2014 (for example), that just means the first customers will take the plane then, whereas SQ, EI or any other customer ordering down the road will have to wait until 2015 or so. Now, we KNOW when EI wants the aircraft, we know that Boeing has a proven track record of providing aircraft when it says it will and to the spec and performance commitments it agrees to; as an airline boss, I would not see the point in risking my neck by betting on Airbus right now, when Boeing has a product that clearly will work.

Much as I like Airbus, I like EI better and I think that Airbus's problems are not EI's, nor any other airlines (except those who have actually bought them); EI is responsible for its destiny and getting the aircraft which will best serve its growth needs; to me, that is the 787. So what if Airbus comes out with a 330; again, a great aircraft, but still THIS decade's aircraft - same fuselage cross section, maybe some lighter plastics, new engines, yada yada, but compared to a 787? No way; remember, the new aircraft needs to be able to open up new doors and I think the 787 will do that far better than the 330E or even (whenever it comes, the 350). Bear in mind also that even though the 350 is wider than the 330, it's still not as wide as the 787, so 9 abreast will still be quite a squeeze.
 
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shamrock350
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RE: Happy 21st - Another Overdose Of Irish Aviation!

Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:42 am

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 44):
Bear in mind also that even though the 350 is wider than the 330, it's still not as wide as the 787

Why have airbus said it is wider than the 787? At FAB (i know its a was a few months ago) we were all told the A350 is wider and generally large than the 787 but not as big as the 777. This was the whole point of the name "Xtra Wide Body" I find it slightly silly to call an aircraft Xtra Wide when it's still thinner than the nearest competitor.
Airbus have lost so much credibility now it would be unsafe for EI to order A350s no matter how cheap they are. I like Airbus but when it comes down it I would prefer to see Aer Lingus do well with any Boeing rather than do badly with an A350.
I expect EI to order 5 A330s and 10 787s plus options as soon as they can get a deal with both Boeing and Airbus for the right delivery slots and judging by DM and his comments on 4 Airbus A330s last month and his comments about being "in talks with boeing" I think we will see an order this year. pray 
 
kaitak
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RE: Happy 21st - Another Overdose Of Irish Aviation!

Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:59 am

I was surprised by the fact that the A350 was described as "XWB", but I can't actually remember Airbus saying it is wider than the 787.

All in all, I just think the 787 is a safe bet and that's really what EI needs; there are so many variables and risks in the airline industry, what with new routes etc, that you really don't want to add to this more than you need to.

I agree that EI's future will be A330s and 787s, BUT whether five more A330s, who knows? I think the most likely outcome is that EI will do a deal with a lessor which has both on its books (not necessarily just one, but most likely ILFC - which doesn't have all of its 787s committed).

My predication: the A333s would be replaced by newer A330-302/303Xs, which would remain in the fleet until the 787-9 comes along, in 2012-13. The A330-200s would remain in the fleet until EI can get hold of 787-8s, which won't be as far away as you think, but I would expect the 787-8s to be a stopgap, ultimately being "rolled over" to the -10 when this becomes available. Aeroflot has lost its slots for 2010-13 delivery and while BA and SQ are said to be interested in these, I expect both of these airlines (particularly SQ, which has only ordered -9s) to focus on this model.

Ultimately, I'd expect the last A330s to be leaving the EI fleet around 2013-14, by which time it would be all 787s, with the small fleet of -8s rolling over into -10s; I envisage about 6-8 model -10s and 10 -9s.

Ultimately, EI would have a fleet of around 16-18 aircraft, but of course, it depends on how effective FR is in "persuading" EI to get into the long haul low cost and really taking full advantage of the opportunities offered by Open Skies and the ability to access secondary US cities, as provided by the Customs agreement. If they can't do that, then it'll probably be the standard 12-14 aircraft ... BUT, if they can't do it, someone else will "My way") and EI will probably find itself under even greater pressure. Lots of questions for EI to ask itself, but at least they'll have an aircraft that can do the job.
 
Toulouse
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RE: Happy 21st - Another Overdose Of Irish Aviation!

Tue Nov 14, 2006 4:02 am

Quoting Shamrock350 (Reply 45):
Airbus have lost so much credibility now it would be unsafe for EI to order A350s no matter how cheap they are. I like Airbus but when it comes down it I would prefer to see Aer Lingus do well with any Boeing rather than do badly with an A350.

Hi all. Just jumping in to quickly defend Airbus, another of my favoured companies after Aer Lingus. Yes, there have been some mess-up's, and I can guarantee you all that nobody is as pi**ed off about it all as the good employees of Airbus. Airbus has suffered some bad management, but when all is said and done it has fine engineers, designers, etc who can offer excellent a/c. Let us not forget that only 3 years ago all we read on a.net was that Boeing was on the way out (which we all knew deep down was not the case, today the same is happening with Airbus). The 380 and it's delays... I am glad to see a few airline CEO's finallys peaking in more positive terms about this, one who said "when all is said and done, 2 years is not that much time in the life of an airliner", and LH has just said that they are "impressed with the tests so far for the 380 and prefer Airbus to delay it than to deliver an a/c with problems". We all want the 350 to be announed, but Airbus is being careful not to repeat recent mistakes. And above all Airbus has sold 282 aircraft in October thus showing that airlines have not lost faith in the company.

Is the 350 or 787 better for EI. I and we have no idea. The 787 still has to fly and the 350 still needs, well needs to be launched yet again! I'd prefer an order for the 350, as the 330 has and continues to serve EI well, yet the 787, if it all works out ok, also looks like a mighty nice aircraft.

I honestly think Airbus will push for the EI order even stronger than Boeing will (and Boeing will fight hard also), but I think right now it is more important to Airbus to retain EI as an all Airbus customer. And I know for a fact that Airbus has an excellent relationship with EI, and any EI pilot I know is very happy with Airbus products (not that they disliked Boeing products). Moreover, what is often forgotten is that Airbus offers a very comprehensive after-sales service, which Boeing does not offer, and this is more often than not where Airbus actually makes its money (thus enabling it to sell a/c at a slightly lower price compared to Boeing, as it knows it will make that differnce up over the years in most cases).
Long live Aer Lingus!
 
Poitin
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RE: Happy 21st - Another Overdose Of Irish Aviation!

Tue Nov 14, 2006 4:07 am

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 44):
. Bear in mind also that even though the 350 is wider than the 330, it's still not as wide as the 787, so 9 abreast will still be quite a squeeze.

The 350 XWB would be wider than a 787 but less than a 777. The 330 is wider than the 767, and a nicer airplane. Given a choice between a 330 and a 767, I would ask "tell me about the IFE?" In short, once you get to two aisles, I would be more worried about seat pitch and width as well as the IFE for a long haul flight.

If I were in charge of EI, as either DM or MOL, I would certainly look very hard at a 330 E if the price was right, and I can get it in a reasonable time. The 330E would have several pluses at EI, not the least being infrastructure. EI knows the airplane, has the training and MX in place, and they are a damn fine airplane. Perhaps not as efficient as the 787, but good enough.
Now so, have ye time fer a pint?
 
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shamrock350
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RE: Happy 21st - Another Overdose Of Irish Aviation!

Tue Nov 14, 2006 4:42 am

Quoting Toulouse (Reply 47):
Is the 350 or 787 better for EI. I and we have no idea. The 787 still has to fly and the 350 still needs, well needs to be launched yet again! I'd prefer an order for the 350, as the 330 has and continues to serve EI well

This is exactly what I would love to see but the A380, although an amazing aircraft is keeping airlines away, the potential 350 airlines don't want to be the next SQ, QF or EK and be told their big new plane is performing ok but will be late by one maybe two years. I like Airbus and Aer Lingus and having EI as an all Airbus airline is great but unless Airbus get the XWB launched and ready for delivery around 2012 and give EI a great deal on some A330s I think Boeing will have this order.

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 46):
to the -10 when this becomes available.

Aer Lingus and many other airlines are looking at the -10 so why haven't we heard anything from Boeing? I think they could be waiting for what Airbus do with the -900XWB and -1000XWB but they could be waiting a long while yet!

EDIT: EL AL just cancelled 8-10 787 delivery slots. Is fate telling EI something!?

[Edited 2006-11-13 20:44:28]

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