mauriceb
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KLM Also To Replace F50/F70

Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:20 pm

After i posted a topic about all the big changes within KLM mainline, KLM now also announced that they are serieously looking at an F-50/F-70 replacement, while the F-100 will stay and they will even add more of them to the fleet.

KLM currently operates 18 F-50's and 21 F-70's.

They didn't announced which planes are possible candidates, but i guess the ATR and Canadiar are the most likely candidates, as it can provide a F-50 and an F-70 replacement, without having to order 2 different types.


All with all its a big day in the KLM history:

-Ordering Aditional 777's and A330's
-Ordering 7 Aditional 737 to replace older 737's
-Overhauling the MD-11/747 with an entiarly new cabin
-Announcing that they are looking for a 747 replacement, with 787 (for combis) and 747-8I (for pax) being the most likely candidates
-Overhauling lounges, meals etc
-Replacing the F50/F70

[Edited 2006-11-13 14:22:25]

[Edited 2006-11-13 14:42:00]
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
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RE: KLM Also To Replace F50/F70

Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:27 pm

Quoting MauriceB (Thread starter):
After i posted a topic about all the big chances within KLM mainline, KLM now also announced that they are serieously looking at an F-50/F-70 replacement

It makes sense for KL to get rid of the old Fokkers. This decision was long expected. I'm glad to see KL progressing on this front.

Quoting MauriceB (Thread starter):
while the F-100 will stay and they will even add more of them to the fleet.

KL will not keep them for long either.

Rgs,
 
columba
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RE: KLM Also To Replace F50/F70

Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:41 pm

Quoting MauriceB (Thread starter):
They didn't announced which planes are possible candidates, but i guess the ATR and Canadiar are the most likely candidates, as it can provide a F-50 and an F-70 replacement, without having to order 2 different types.

Embraer recently send an E190 down to Amsterdam.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
kappel
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RE: KLM Also To Replace F50/F70

Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:43 pm

Quoting MauriceB (Thread starter):
They didn't announced which planes are possible candidates, but i guess the ATR and Canadiar are the most likely candidates, as it can provide a F-50 and an F-70 replacement, without having to order 2 different types.

Actually, IMHO E-170 is more favored, because they can also replace the F100's with the E-190/E-195. IIRC the CRJ900 is smaller than the F100.
L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
 
hardiwv
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RE: KLM Also To Replace F50/F70

Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:49 pm

Quoting Columba (Reply 2):
Actually, IMHO E-170 is more favored, because they can also replace the F100's with the E-190/E-195. IIRC the CRJ900 is smaller than the F100.



Quoting Columba (Reply 2):
Embraer recently send an E190 down to Amsterdam.

I am aware of the above, but tks of the info. KL management is having close contact with Embraer team. KL personal was also seen in Sao Jose dos Campos, Embraer base in Brazil.

Rgs,
 
mptpa
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RE: KLM Also To Replace F50/F70

Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:55 pm

Quoting Kappel (Reply 3):
Actually, IMHO E-170 is more favored, because they can also replace the F100's with the E-190/E-195. IIRC the CRJ900 is smaller than the F100.

May be, just may be, Canadair found a launch customer for their C series!!!
 
aviopic
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RE: KLM Also To Replace F50/F70

Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:56 pm

Quoting MauriceB (Thread starter):
KLM now also announced that they are serieously looking at an F-50/F-70 replacement, while the F-100 will stay and they will even add more of them to the fleet.

Care to post your reference as well ?

The F50 replacement is old news but as far as I know they would like to have more F70's as well as F100's.
Which makes more sense together with the new Fokker Services contract and another announcement made by v.Wijk "I guess that's no surprise, given that Van Wijk said he was not that impressed with the current generation of small jets (E-jets and CRJ's) They don't improve enough on the Fokkers to replace them."(quoted from another thread).
The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
 
COERJ145
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RE: KLM Also To Replace F50/F70

Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:00 pm

Maybe they could replace the F50s with Q300s and the F70s with Q400s or CRJ-700s.
 
dougbr2006
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RE: KLM Also To Replace F50/F70

Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:01 pm

Don't rule out a change to Ejets for the Fokker replacement.
 
aviopic
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RE: KLM Also To Replace F50/F70

Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:08 pm

I am afraid some are missing the point.
KL just signed(4 weeks ago) a new long term 80-100 million EU contract with Fokker Services which runs till 2017.
http://stork.com/page.html?ch=DEF&id=4875&pr=200610/1081207
The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
 
hardiwv
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RE: KLM Also To Replace F50/F70

Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:14 pm

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 9):
KL just signed(4 weeks ago) a new long term 80-100 million EU contract with Fokker Services which runs till 2017.

I guess this contract does not prevent KL from switching to other equipment, i.e. Ejets. 80-100 million is peanuts in aviation business...this amount was supposed to be spent just as "make-up" for KL F100s which were in dire need anyway...

Now, with KL replacing the F-50 and F-70 as posted above, it is just a pre-announcement that the F-100's days in KL are counted down...

Rgs,
 
mauriceb
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RE: KLM Also To Replace F50/F70

Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:18 pm

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 6):
Care to post your reference as well ?

The F50 replacement is old news but as far as I know they would like to have more F70's as well as F100's.

Sure, www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl , announced by Paul Gregorowitsch, executive vice-president commercial.

if you don't believe it, i can ask it personally to him...

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 9):
am afraid some are missing the point.
KL just signed(4 weeks ago) a new long term 80-100 million EU contract with Fokker Services which runs till 2017.

As said, the will add more F-100's, and think they care more about new planes than a maintenance contract.

So here come's my point again, the ERJ-170 can only coffer theire F70 needs, and a smaller plane is still needed for routes to Small airports and short destinations such as LCY, LUX, BRU, HAM etc..

Since the F-100 will stay for a while, i don't see the need of the ERJ-190, despite the demo flight couple of weeks ago.



Another news fact about KLM (yes , about the 10th today), They signed a 3 year contract with Finnair for MD-11 maintenance
 
Foxy
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RE: KLM Also To Replace F50/F70

Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:21 pm

So how many F50's do you reckon we will see go to VLM?
 
hardiwv
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RE: KLM Also To Replace F50/F70

Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:26 pm

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 11):
So here come's my point again, the ERJ-170 can only coffer theire F70 needs, and a smaller plane is still needed for routes to Small airports and short destinations such as LCY, LUX, BRU, HAM etc

Note that E-135 jets are certified for short runaway such as LCY. In fact, Luxair has been operating E-135 jets (37-seat) into LCY for some time now.

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 11):
Sure, www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl , announced by Paul Gregorowitsch, executive vice-president commercial.

I also read the article. Btw, tks for the private msg!

Rgs,
 
vfw614
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RE: KLM Also To Replace F50/F70

Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:31 pm

The ERJ135 is way to small for KLM's AMS route, IMHO. As no 50seater jet is certified for LCY, the E170 would make sense if EMBRAER gets the certification sorted out. However, from AMS to LCY jets obviously do not make much sense as KLM could very well use Fokker 70 to have a competitive edge over VLM - but still they stick with the Fokker 50 on the route.
 
mauriceb
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RE: KLM Also To Replace F50/F70

Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:31 pm

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 13):
Note that E-135 jets are certified for short runaway such as LCY. In fact, Luxair has been operating E-135 jets (37-seat) into LCY for some time now.

Sure, i already thought about that, but in that case they would order 2 different types: ERJ-135/140/145 and EMB-170

And for short hops, turboprops could in most cases be faster and more economical, especially when you look which destinations the F-50/F-70's coffer. Longer routes can always be taken over by the F-100. so the Q300 and Q400 can perfectly coffer those needs.
 
hjulicher
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RE: KLM Also To Replace F50/F70

Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:18 am

According to Sukhoi, they say KLM is also looking into their superjet project. It would be really interesting to see what happens if the superjet gets off the ground and into the fleets of western airlines. With prices for a superjet much lower than the rivals, KLM may get more bang for their buck.
LH 442
 
aviopic
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RE: KLM Also To Replace F50/F70

Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:23 am

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 11):
and think they care more about new planes than a maintenance contract.

Not if you payed 100 million EU I guess. Big grin

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 10):
80-100 million is peanuts in aviation business

Maybe your farming business it is but not here in Holland.  Wink

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 11):
i can ask it personally to him...

Yes if you would be so kind please do.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 13):
Note that E-135 jets are certified for short runaway such as LCY.

As is the F50 and F70.

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 11):
Quoting Aviopic (Reply 6):
Care to post your reference as well ?

The F50 replacement is old news

They started to replace the F50 about 4-5 years ago but since they could not get any suitable replacement it was halted after a few.

Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 14):
the E170 would make sense if EMBRAER gets the certification sorted out.

Jeeh...... do they still have problems  Smile
The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
 
mauriceb
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RE: KLM Also To Replace F50/F70

Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:24 am

Quote:
According to Sukhoi, they say KLM is also looking into their superjet project. It would be really interesting to see what happens if the superjet gets off the ground and into the fleets of western airlines

Sure, but that's already a while ago, then the options were rekkof and sukhoi, But still think KLM prefers western aicraft, not that russian planes aren't good, but some western people wouldn't like to fly on them, since russian planes have a reputation in the Western world.

The most likely candidate is Embraer, but i certainly wouldn't rule out Bombardier and ATR as well.
 
Fokker70NG
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RE: KLM Also To Replace F50/F70

Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:47 am

Quoting Mauriceb (Reply 18):
Sure, but that's already a while ago, then the options were rekkof and sukhoi, But still think KLM prefers western aicraft, not that russian planes aren't good, but some western people wouldn't like to fly on them, since russian planes have a reputation in the Western world.

I agree, I don't see KLM ordering Russian planes yet, just because of the reputation. However, if I'm not mistaken Boeing is involved in the project too. If there would be a Boeing-branded RRJ for the western market, I could see KL ordering them.

I'm highly surprised about the F70-replacement. I'll believe it when I see it. Don't expect the F100 to leave the fleet very soon, with the 100 million contract KL signed with Fokker Services some weeks ago that runs until 2017, like Aviopic said.

Still these are some interesting developments. Very sad to see the F70 go. I wonder who will pick them up.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. -Albert Einstein
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
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RE: KLM Also To Replace F50/F70

Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:51 am

Quoting Mauriceb (Reply 18):
The most likely candidate is Embraer, but i certainly wouldn't rule out Bombardier and ATR as well.

Agree. As I mentioned, KL team was in Brazil a few weeks ago. I would not rule out KL approaching Bombardier as well. ATR, as you well mentioned, could well be a secondary option.

Quoting Fokker70NG (Reply 19):
Still these are some interesting developments. Very sad to see the F70 go. I wonder who will pick them up.

It was expected. It was just a matter of time.

Rgs,
 
Fokker70NG
Posts: 218
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RE: KLM Also To Replace F50/F70

Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:02 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 20):
It was expected. It was just a matter of time.

It was expected by who? Previous press statements didn't imply such an early retiral, nor did the recent events.
And yes, if (and that's a big IF) KL will order E-jets, I expect them to be retired by 2030. Also it's expected that KL will retire their brand new A330's somewhere in the future, maybe in 20 years or so.
I expect lots of things.

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 20):
Agree. As I mentioned, KL team was in Brazil a few weeks ago. I would not rule out KL approaching Bombardier as well. ATR, as you well mentioned, could well be a secondary option.

Don't totally rule out the RRJ as of yet. As for the turboprops, if I recall correctly KL stated a while ago they want an all-jet fleet eventually. Don't know if they still want that though.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. -Albert Einstein
 
hardiwv
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RE: KLM Also To Replace F50/F70

Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:09 am

Quoting Fokker70NG (Reply 21):
It was expected by who?

It was discussed here [try to use search engine]...It hit the press today, but rumours and discussions were ongoing.

Quoting Fokker70NG (Reply 21):
Don't totally rule out the RRJ as of yet. As for the turboprops, if I recall correctly KL stated a while ago they want an all-jet fleet eventually. Don't know if they still want that though.

In my opinion, KL will go for an all Jet fleet.

Rgs,
 
Fokker70NG
Posts: 218
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RE: KLM Also To Replace F50/F70

Tue Nov 14, 2006 5:12 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 22):
It was discussed here [try to use search engine]...It hit the press today, but rumours and discussions were ongoing.

Well, after all, it seems that those ongoing discussion weren't totally right, as it's not such an early retiral as suggested. According to this article KLM cityhopper CEO Coumans said in a press conference today that the F70 and F100 will probably stay in the fleet for another 7 years, but they are starting to study the possible replacements. The F50 will be retired in approximately 5 years.

Interesting fact is that the KLM Cityhopper CEO mentions Rekkof. Rekkof is still in the race for an order, but he wants certainty about Rekkof's future within a half year. KLM doesn't want to be launch customer. He also said they're extensively studying the Sukhoi project and Embraer is also a possibility.

Rekkof isn't dead yet.

[Edited 2006-11-13 21:17:17]
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. -Albert Einstein
 
aviopic
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RE: KLM Also To Replace F50/F70

Tue Nov 14, 2006 5:32 am

Quoting Fokker70NG (Reply 23):
Well, after all, it seems that those ongoing discussion weren't totally right, as it's not such an early retiral as suggested. According to this article KLM cityhopper CEO Coumans said in a press conference today that the F70 and F100 will probably stay in the fleet for another 7 years, but they are starting to study the possible replacements. The F50 will be retired in approximately 5 years.

Haha... I was just typing a reply that the F70's would not go anywhere for the first 7 years at least.
Thanks to you I could start all over again.
Anyway a mixed fleet is not practical and way to expensive, it is just not going to happen.
Guess the "hot potato" spoke before his turn.

I'll keep you updated with news from Iran Joost.
The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
 
lijnden
Posts: 528
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RE: KLM Also To Replace F50/F70

Tue Nov 14, 2006 5:40 am

Maybe the Fokkers will be replaced by Rekkofs? I guess the announcement of Rekkof will follow soon? Checking the new Rekkof web page shows a F70 look-a-like with winglets! Maybe an insider can help us?

the link:

www.rekkof.nl
Be kind to animals! Next trip: ORF-ORD-NRT-IAH-ORF
 
aviopic
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RE: KLM Also To Replace F50/F70

Tue Nov 14, 2006 5:51 am

Quoting Lijnden (Reply 25):
Maybe the Fokkers will be replaced by Rekkofs? I guess the announcement of Rekkof will follow soon? Checking the new Rekkof web page shows a F70 look-a-like with winglets! Maybe an insider can help us?

Don't look at me, I've always shared my info but I got very tired of the BS I get in return.
The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
 
Fokker70NG
Posts: 218
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RE: KLM Also To Replace F50/F70

Tue Nov 14, 2006 5:57 am

Quoting Lijnden (Reply 25):
Maybe the Fokkers will be replaced by Rekkofs? I guess the announcement of Rekkof will follow soon? Checking the new Rekkof web page shows a F70 look-a-like with winglets! Maybe an insider can help us?

the link:

www.rekkof.nl

I'm not an insider, but that "new" website is on there for some time now, I think since March. I know they're working on an F70/F100 with winglets and BR710-engine and some other improvements.

As you can read here the cityhopper CEO is also mentioning Rekkof as possibility. We'll see.

[Edited 2006-11-13 21:58:14]
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. -Albert Einstein
 
AMSSFO
Posts: 912
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RE: KLM Also To Replace F50/F70

Wed Nov 15, 2006 5:56 am

Quoting MauriceB (Thread starter):
KLM now also announced that they are serieously looking at an F-50/F-70 replacement, while the F-100 will stay and they will even add more of them to the fleet.



Quoting Fokker70NG (Reply 23):
Well, after all, it seems that those ongoing discussion weren't totally right, as it's not such an early retiral as suggested. According to this article KLM cityhopper CEO Coumans said in a press conference today that the F70 and F100 will probably stay in the fleet for another 7 years, but they are starting to study the possible replacements. The F50 will be retired in approximately 5 years.

Well that's a relief. I love to see those Fokkers flying for KLM Cityhopper. And they will buy any F100 that is available in the next few years.

Obviously, in the end they need to be replaced. According to the link to Luchtvaartnieuws given by Fokker70NG http://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/news/?id=17022, the ATR72 and the Q400 are candidates to replace the F50 (in 5 years), as stated by Michel Coumans CEO of KLM cityhopper. If fuel prices stay high they might replace the F70 with a turboprop as well.
But he also stated that at the moment they are primarily interested in Embraer as they are the only manufacturer that can provide replacements for both F70 and F100. However, other options are Rekkof and Sukhoi. Rekkof only if they provide certainty within half a year; KLM does not want to be launch customer.

It's not clear at all how the Fokkers will be replaced. Interesting times ae coming.
 
BMED
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RE: KLM Also To Replace F50/F70

Wed Nov 15, 2006 6:14 am

Quoting Fokker70NG (Reply 21):
KL stated a while ago they want an all-jet fleet eventually

So did a lot of airlines but we have seen the Q400 starting to appear in the states.
Living the jetset life! No better way to be
 
PPVRA
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RE: KLM Also To Replace F50/F70

Wed Nov 15, 2006 7:47 am

Well, AF already ordered Ejets, so that's one advantage for EMB. As for the F50 replacement. . . I don't know, maybe they will not want a direct replacement and just order 70-seaters.

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 17):
Quoting Vfw614 (Reply 14):
the E170 would make sense if EMBRAER gets the certification sorted out.

Jeeh...... do they still have problems Smile

Well, Crossair wanted to land the Ejets at LCY, but since they seem to not be taking delivery anymore or have delayed it indefinately I guess EMB sorted out other priorities. . .

Cheers
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
hardiwv
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RE: KLM Also To Replace F50/F70

Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:34 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 30):
Well, AF already ordered Ejets, so that's one advantage for EMB.

No doubt this means Embraer has an edge of competitors...

Rgs,
 
lamedianaranja
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RE: KLM Also To Replace F50/F70

Thu Nov 16, 2006 1:19 am

Quoting MauriceB (Reply 11):
Paul Gregorowitsch, executive vice-president commercial

He's a nice guy. a few years back we were stuck at GVA airport trying to nonrev back to AMS and we struck up a conversation, waiting for a seat. He was really interested in what I go tru, dealing frontline with the passengers everyday. And in the end he let me go onboard first although his priority number was way better than mine  Cool
I wish that all skies were orange and blue!!
 
Aleksandar
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RE: KLM Also To Replace F50/F70

Thu Nov 16, 2006 1:40 am

Quoting Mptpa (Reply 5):
May be, just may be, Canadair found a launch customer for their C series!!!

Well, Canadair and Embraer do naturally come in mind, but what about Rekkof project. Every now and then we hear their plans and nothing else. It is still a Dutch based company and if anyone could launch that project it is KLM.

So, what do you think about that?

[Edited 2006-11-15 17:42:20]
R-E-S-P-E-C-T
 
jwenting
Posts: 9973
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RE: KLM Also To Replace F50/F70

Thu Nov 16, 2006 3:45 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 30):
Well, AF already ordered Ejets, so that's one advantage for EMB



Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 31):
No doubt this means Embraer has an edge of competitors...

AF has both Embraers and CRJs, so a pretty level playing field.
I don't know which they're happier with, maybe someone can chime in, as that would certainly influence future purchase plans (and might of course lead to the others going to an AF daughter with blue aircraft while AF buys new ones).
I wish I were flying
 
LifelinerOne
Posts: 1498
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 10:30 pm

RE: KLM Also To Replace F50/F70

Thu Nov 16, 2006 4:15 am

Quoting Aleksandar (Reply 33):
Well, Canadair and Embraer do naturally come in mind, but what about Rekkof project. Every now and then we hear their plans and nothing else. It is still a Dutch based company and if anyone could launch that project it is KLM.

Rekkof is still an option, however, KLM just added some pressure by saying that Rekkof must come out with their plans within 6 months or they will lose the interest of the company. KLM also said that they won't be a launch customer, so Rekkof needs to start the whole thing with other carriers.

Funny to see that Rekkof still pops up from now and then and even from official sources like KLM.

Cheers!  wave 
Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
 
MH017
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RE: KLM Also To Replace F50/F70

Thu Nov 16, 2006 5:19 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 20):
As I mentioned, KL team was in Brazil a few weeks ago.

Don't know if they visited Embraer there, but do know they were there to inspect the 2 Fokker 100 ex TAM that will join the KLC fleet shortly (PH-OFO and PH-OFP)
don't throw away tomorrow !
 
AMSSFO
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RE: KLM Also To Replace F50/F70

Thu Nov 16, 2006 5:22 am

Quoting MauriceB (Thread starter):
while the F-100 will stay and they will even add more of them to the fleet.

two former TAM Fokker 100 will be added soon:
PH-OFO - March 2007 (11462)
PH-OFP - January 2007 (11472)

The fokkers are clearly not gone yet; they will get a complete upgrade:
A link in English (direct translation from Luchtvaartnieuws.nl) http://www.asiatraveltips.com/news06/1411-KLMUpgradesFleet.shtml: "The interior and exterior of KLM cityhopper�s 18 Fokker 100s, 21 Fokker 70s, and 14 Fokker 50s will be fully revamped. The aircraft will be fitted with new interiors (carpets and curtains) and the exterior will be repainted to match the livery of the KLM fleet. In addition, all of the airline's Fokker 100s have already been equipped with more modern air-conditioning systems, allowing the cabin climate to be better adjusted to passengers� wishes."
 
aviopic
Posts: 2423
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RE: KLM Also To Replace F50/F70

Thu Nov 16, 2006 7:43 am

Quoting MH017 (Reply 36):
Don't know if they visited Embraer there

Nope.

Quoting MH017 (Reply 36):
but do know they were there to inspect the 2 Fokker 100 ex TAM that will join the KLC fleet shortly (PH-OFO and PH-OFP

 checkmark 
After the bad experience with the first ex Tam F100 they now seem to have learned and go for an inspection first.

Quoting AMSSFO (Reply 37):
The aircraft will be fitted with new interiors (carpets and curtains) and the exterior will be repainted to match the livery of the KLM fleet

Like I said earlier this is done at every heavy mx stop for every A/C at KL, roughly every 5 years or so.

Quoting AMSSFO (Reply 37):
all of the airline's Fokker 100s have already been equipped with more modern air-conditioning systems

The AC system will not really be changed but just the capacity enlarged(an extra pack).
For most frames this is already completed during the "Fly 100" project performed by Fokker Services which ran early this year.
Basically this was a commonality program due to the differences between the various KL frames with some added features.
The program is finalized months ago.
The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist