leelaw
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Airbus To Re-Test A380 Separations

Tue Nov 14, 2006 2:26 am

Manufacturer aims to convince ICAO to relax restriction

Airbus is to conduct a fresh series of wake vortex-encounter flight trials to persuade the International Civil Aviation Organisation to relax recommended separations on approach for aircraft trailing its A380 ultra-large airliner...


http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...+to+re-test+A380+separations+.html
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NYC777
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RE: Airbus To Re-Test A380 Separations

Tue Nov 14, 2006 2:34 am

I wonder if some airlines have told Airbus that the sep rules are unacceptable?
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ikramerica
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RE: Airbus To Re-Test A380 Separations

Tue Nov 14, 2006 2:35 am

This is getting ridiculous and personally, I think Airbus is playing loose with our safety to make their product look better at this point. After all, it's not the A380 that might crash if Airbus is wrong, but the plane behind it.

Two sets of tests were conducted so far and the spacing is based on those results. The extra set was conducted by Airbus to prove the first set wrong, but it didn't. Will a third be conclusive, or just add more data?

The more prudent approach at this point is to relax the restrictions if and when they warrant it after see how the jet performs in service. By the end of 2008, there are only going to be a handful of A380s flying anyway.

I would assume that the only real urgency here is that potential customers are balking due to this issue, and it's hurting sales?
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kaneporta1
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RE: Airbus To Re-Test A380 Separations

Tue Nov 14, 2006 2:45 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 2):
This is getting ridiculous and personally, I think Airbus is playing loose with our safety to make their product look better at this point. After all, it's not the A380 that might crash if Airbus is wrong, but the plane behind it.

That's why you should only fly in A380s

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 2):
I would assume that the only real urgency here is that potential customers are balking due to this issue, and it's hurting sales?

Wake turbulence is the last thing customers care about, especially with an amazing airplane such as the 380. Let ATC worry about that.

Since the delivery delay is now 2 years, Airbus has plenty of time to get more data and test more vortex reduction devices/systems/methods
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astuteman
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RE: Airbus To Re-Test A380 Separations

Tue Nov 14, 2006 2:48 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 2):
I think Airbus is playing loose with our safety to make their product look better at this point

Conversely, the A380 might well end up with more definitive wake data than any other airliner in the history of aviation, with which to make more robust judgements than have ever been made before  Smile.

They might also cause the same level of data to be demanded of every other airliner type too, which a) may well make aviation even safer, and b) quite possibly have some interesting consequences for airliner types already flying.

An alternative view, perhaps......

Regards
 
NYC777
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RE: Airbus To Re-Test A380 Separations

Tue Nov 14, 2006 2:56 am

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 3):
Wake turbulence is the last thing customers care about, especially with an amazing airplane such as the 380. Let ATC worry about that.

What are you talking about...of course they would have to worry about it for more reason than you think.

1) Wake vortex can affect the flight stability of trailing aircraft which can cause them to lose control..AA587 (5 years ago) is a case in point.

2) The separation rules can tie up take off and landing slots and effectively the airline with the A380 would have to pay more and the effected airports would have reduced capacity due to fewer slots.
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Poitin
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RE: Airbus To Re-Test A380 Separations

Tue Nov 14, 2006 2:59 am

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 3):
Wake turbulence is the last thing customers care about, especially with an amazing airplane such as the 380. Let ATC worry about that.

Tell that to AA 587. tombstone 

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 4):
Conversely, the A380 might well end up with more definitive wake data than any other airliner in the history of aviation, with which to make more robust judgements than have ever been made before Smile.

They might also cause the same level of data to be demanded of every other airliner type too, which a) may well make aviation even safer, and b) quite possibly have some interesting consequences for airliner types already flying.

An alternative view, perhaps......

And a very good set of points. Well said.
 checkmark 
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus To Re-Test A380 Separations

Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:04 am

Honestly, if Airbus is willing to fund a third (or fourth or fifth or fiftieth) set of tests, what harm is there in doing so?

At best, they prove that the proposed rules are too restrictive and a more accurate, whilst still safe and prudent, set of rules are drafted.

At worst, they prove the proposed rules are the safe and prudent ones, and A388 customers need to adjust their schedules as necessary.
 
kaneporta1
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RE: Airbus To Re-Test A380 Separations

Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:04 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 5):
1) Wake vortex can affect the flight stability of trailing aircraft which can cause them to lose control..AA587 (5 years ago) is a case in point.

I don't recall JAL having to deal with lawsuits for that crash. It was after all, their Jumbo that cause the turbulence.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 5):
The separation rules can tie up take off and landing slots and effectively the airline with the A380 would have to pay more and the effected airports would have reduced capacity due to fewer slots.

It's up to ATC to separate airplanes efficiently so the impact would be minimal. Also, the A380 takes 1 slot, just like every airplane, despite all the misinformation on this board.
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RichardPrice
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RE: Airbus To Re-Test A380 Separations

Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:09 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 2):
This is getting ridiculous and personally, I think Airbus is playing loose with our safety to make their product look better at this point. After all, it's not the A380 that might crash if Airbus is wrong, but the plane behind it.

Well, some people have hinted at it before, but we have finally had someone come out and say it - apparently Airbus doesnt care about our safety.

Do you really think that is the case? Do you really think Airbus would place anyone in undue danger just to sell some aircraft? Why?
 
NYC777
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RE: Airbus To Re-Test A380 Separations

Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:17 am

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 8):
It's up to ATC to separate airplanes efficiently so the impact would be minimal. Also, the A380 takes 1 slot, just like every airplane, despite all the misinformation on this board.

And what about the aircrafts who have to follow the A380 into and out the airport. they are governed by wider rules of separation which means that airport losses slots based on the wider rules following the A380. Therefore to compensate those airports will charge A380 operators higher landing and take off fees.

The overall net effect is that airports lose take of fand landing slots. This reduces the capacity at said airports. In turn, airports become more crowded.
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NYC777
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RE: Airbus To Re-Test A380 Separations

Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:19 am

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 8):
I don't recall JAL having to deal with lawsuits for that crash. It was after all, their Jumbo that cause the turbulence.

And what about the poor souls on AA587? Wake turbulence cost them their lives. Do you think any ATC will be putting that out of their mind when they determine the separation between the A380 and any trailing aircraft?
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WINGS
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RE: Airbus To Re-Test A380 Separations

Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:25 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 6):

Tell that to AA 587. tombstone



Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 8):

I don't recall JAL having to deal with lawsuits for that crash. It was after all, their Jumbo that cause the turbulence.



Quoting NYC777 (Reply 11):
And what about the poor souls on AA587? Wake turbulence cost them their lives. Do you think any ATC will be putting that out of their mind when they determine the separation between the A380 and any trailing aircraft?

Just out of curiosity were stricter wake turbulence rules applied after the AA 587 crash?

Did they end up increasing the distance between the B747 in relation to other smaller airplanes?

Regards,
Wings
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NYC777
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RE: Airbus To Re-Test A380 Separations

Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:28 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 12):
Just out of curiosity were stricter wake turbulence rules applied after the AA 587 crash?

Did they end up increasing the distance between the B747 in relation to other smaller airplanes?

Regards,
Wings

Well first we should ask if the ATC apply the existing separation rules at the time or did they release the A300 before the JAL 747 was at minimum separation. That I don't know. What were the minimum separation rules at the time and what were they after the crash? Those are valid questions.
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kc135topboom
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RE: Airbus To Re-Test A380 Separations

Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:32 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 2):
I would assume that the only real urgency here is that potential customers are balking due to this issue, and it's hurting sales?

 checkmark 

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 3):
Wake turbulence is the last thing customers care about, especially with an amazing airplane such as the 380.

Amazing in what way?

Quoting Poitin (Reply 6):
Tell that to AA 587.

And US-427

Quoting Stitch (Reply 7):
Honestly, if Airbus is willing to fund a third (or fourth or fifth or fiftieth) set of tests, what harm is there in doing so?

At best, they prove that the proposed rules are too restrictive and a more accurate, whilst still safe and prudent, set of rules are drafted.

At worst, they prove the proposed rules are the safe and prudent ones, and A388 customers need to adjust their schedules as necessary.

Keep testing until you can get the results you want? Two different wake turbalance tests to date have come to the same conclusion.  covereyes 
 crossfingers 

Airbus really needs to consider here what they are doing. Are sales of the WhaleJet more important than the safety of the passengers and crew of the airplane behind it? Let's face the facts, now. Airbus has built a White Elephant. It sold about 159 production positions, and FedEx has already canceled their order. Fuel prices are still to high to fly the WhaleJet economicly. If it was, they would be raking in orders like the B-787 is. Airports don't want to put the A-380 support infaststructure in place because it is expensive. Airbus's new break even point is now up around 420 units from the original 250, or so. Maybe Airbus should consider cutting their losses here, and cancel the A-380 program altogether, then go full force to design and build an A-350 that can actually compete with either the B-777 or the B-787, but not both.  ashamed   box 
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: Airbus To Re-Test A380 Separations

Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:32 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 2):
I think Airbus is playing loose with our safety to make their product look better at this point.

How do they "play loose with our safety" by starting another test series? It's not Airbus to decide in the end, but the authorities. And it's very likely those are neither incompetent nor naive.


PH
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kaneporta1
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RE: Airbus To Re-Test A380 Separations

Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:36 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 11):
And what about the poor souls on AA587? Wake turbulence cost them their lives.

Actually, poor AA pilot training cost them their lives. If you want a real wake turbulence accident, look at DL's 3305L. Caused by a wake encounter in VFR conditions, with no real ATC separation, just a caution.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 10):
Therefore to compensate those airports will charge A380 operators higher landing and take off fees.

Landing fees are mostly charged by aircraft weight.

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 10):
The overall net effect is that airports lose take of fand landing slots. This reduces the capacity at said airports. In turn, airports become more crowded.

Having an airplane on approach, a further 1-2nm behind a 380, will certainly not make airports more congested.

The bottom line is, if air traffic control want to run things more efficiently they can always have the 380 land on the take-off runway, and take off in between landings from the landing runway.

Any Anet member with ATC knowledge, please give your thoughts on this.
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kaneporta1
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RE: Airbus To Re-Test A380 Separations

Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:39 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 14):
And US-427

From www.aviation-safety.net

PROBABLE CAUSE :" The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of the USAir flight 427 accident was a loss of control of the airplane resulting from the movement of the rudder surface to its blow down limit. The rudder surface most likely deflected in a direction opposite to that commanded by the pilots as a result of a jam of the main rudder power control unit servo valve secondary slide to the servo valve housing offset from its neutral position and over travel of the primary slide."
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Poitin
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RE: Airbus To Re-Test A380 Separations

Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:56 am

From the NTSB report, which you all should read
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?...130X02321&ntsbno=DCA02MA001&akey=1


    About 0911:08, the local controller cleared the Japan Air Lines airplane for takeoff. About 0911:36, the local controller cautioned the flight 587 pilots about wake turbulence and instructed the pilots to taxi into position and hold for runway 31L. The first officer acknowledged the instruction. About 0913:05, the local controller instructed the Japan Air Lines pilots to fly the bridge climb and to contact the departure controller at the New York Terminal Radar Approach Control (TRACON). About 0913:21, the flight 587 captain said to the first officer, "you have the airplane."

    About 0913:28, the local controller cleared flight 587 for takeoff, and the captain acknowledged the clearance. About 0913:35, the first officer asked the captain, "you happy with that [separation] distance?" About 3 seconds later, the captain replied, "we'll be all right once we get rollin'. He's supposed to be five miles by the time we're airborne, that's the idea." About 0913:46, the first officer said, "so you're happy."


while the plane did crash due to the tail seperating because of excessive loading caused by the copilot, it was caused by flight AA 587 running into the wake turbulence of the JAL 747 not once but twice.

Had the captain say, "No, let's wait a minute." they would have had no problems.
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osiris30
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RE: Airbus To Re-Test A380 Separations

Tue Nov 14, 2006 4:07 am

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 16):
Actually, poor AA pilot training cost them their lives.

Both poor pilot training and IMHO the fact that the flight computer allowed the pilots to put that much stress on the blame is to blame. The pilots should have known better, but the plane itself should have stopped them from doing it too.
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Pihero
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RE: Airbus To Re-Test A380 Separations

Tue Nov 14, 2006 4:09 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 18):
About 0911:08, the local controller cleared the Japan Air Lines airplane for takeoff



Quoting Poitin (Reply 18):
About 0913:28, the local controller cleared flight 587 for takeoff

Tha's more than 2 minutes' separation, both aircraft starting from the same position. Actually, that separation would have been legal between the JAL 747 and a B-737.

Quoting Poitin (Reply 18):
Had the captain say, "No, let's wait a minute." they would have had no problems.

Unfortunately, wake turbulence could have a vastly more different dissipation characteristics, depending on area, wind,temperature and temperature inversion....etc... Your statement is only a supposition.
Contrail designer
 
Poitin
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RE: Airbus To Re-Test A380 Separations

Tue Nov 14, 2006 4:16 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 19):
Both poor pilot training and IMHO the fact that the flight computer allowed the pilots to put that much stress on the blame is to blame. The pilots should have known better, but the plane itself should have stopped them from doing it too.

Flight AA 587 was a A 300. It was not fly-by-wire but fly-by-cable/hydralics.

There is a long list of things that went wrong that day, which has been beaten to death on several other threads, but the computer was not to blame because it wasn't there.

And there wasn't "poor" pilot training, but incorrect pilot training. The copilot was well trained in how AA wanted him to react to such a circumstance, and he did it. The reason for that was another debate.

The issue I raise is not why the copilot used the rudder in turbulence, but why he was in the turbulence. It should never have happened.
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NYC777
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RE: Airbus To Re-Test A380 Separations

Tue Nov 14, 2006 4:20 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 21):
The issue I raise is not why the copilot used the rudder in turbulence, but why he was in the turbulence. It should never have happened.

 checkmark 

Correct. If ATC released him too soon then he was going to fly into the wake. That's the point of the whole thread....if a smaller aircraft is flying behind an A380 what is the minimum distance to avoid going out of control. It is not just an ATC issue but it is an issue facing the customer who bought it as well as Airbus.
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par13del
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RE: Airbus To Re-Test A380 Separations

Tue Nov 14, 2006 4:20 am

Quoting Planhunter reply 15
"How do they "play loose with our safety" by starting another test series? It's not Airbus to decide in the end, but the authorities. And it's very likely those are neither incompetent nor naive."

Just to play devils advocate here, but those same competent authorities looked at the first two test and came up with the current seperation limits. Airbus seems to have some issue with their competence if they are going for a thrid test, no?
 
wjcandee
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RE: Airbus To Re-Test A380 Separations

Tue Nov 14, 2006 4:25 am

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 17):
PROBABLE CAUSE :" The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of the USAir flight 427 accident

Dude, have some sensitivity and maturity here. In trying to defend a pretty-hard-to-defend comment ("Customers don't care about wake turbulence..."), now you're treading all over a lot of dead people.

The NTSB finding regarding USAir is a source of dispute and dissatisfaction among many, many people in the aviation community. And whether wake turbulence alone caused a loss of control in the USAir and AA incidents, it was certainly the triggering event.

I know that you want to show your enthusiasm for the A380, but I'd respectfully implore you to be civil.
 
Poitin
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RE: Airbus To Re-Test A380 Separations

Tue Nov 14, 2006 4:26 am

Quoting Pihero (Reply 20):
Quoting Poitin (Reply 18):
About 0913:28, the local controller cleared flight 587 for takeoff

Tha's more than 2 minutes' separation, both aircraft starting from the same position. Actually, that separation would have been legal between the JAL 747 and a B-737.

Quoting Poitin (Reply 18):
Had the captain say, "No, let's wait a minute." they would have had no problems.

Unfortunately, wake turbulence could have a vastly more different dissipation characteristics, depending on area, wind,temperature and temperature inversion....etc... Your statement is only a supposition.

Of course I made a supposition, as did the captain when he said, "okay". However, if he waited 3 minutes instead of 2, he would have had a better chance. We just don't know what really happened because we never researched it properly. You list above a number of factors, none of which are properly examined by scientists.

This is exactly why support Asuteman in his reply 4.

And as for it being "Legal" it was. Perhaps it shouldn't have been.

I think Airbus should do all the testing it wants as long as it isn't slanted by Airbus playing games. That means it should be supervised by the FAA and EASA. In the end we may all be safer.
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osiris30
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RE: Airbus To Re-Test A380 Separations

Tue Nov 14, 2006 4:27 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 21):
Flight AA 587 was a A 300. It was not fly-by-wire but fly-by-cable/hydralics.

If you say so, I'll take you word for it.. I've never been really clear on what is and isn't FBW on which A300s. I thought the later 300s had at least some FBW on board. If it's not the case I take it all back and will crawl under my rock now  Wink
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wjcandee
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RE: Airbus To Re-Test A380 Separations

Tue Nov 14, 2006 4:34 am

Quoting Pihero (Reply 20):
Tha's more than 2 minutes' separation, both aircraft starting from the same position. Actually, that separation would have been legal between the JAL 747 and a B-737.

While I understand your math, there is more accurate information available. The NTSB expressly determined that there was one minute and 40 seconds between the aircraft at liftoff.
 
Poitin
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RE: Airbus To Re-Test A380 Separations

Tue Nov 14, 2006 4:36 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 26):
Quoting Poitin (Reply 21):
Flight AA 587 was a A 300. It was not fly-by-wire but fly-by-cable/hydralics.

If you say so, I'll take you word for it.. I've never been really clear on what is and isn't FBW on which A300s. I thought the later 300s had at least some FBW on board. If it's not the case I take it all back and will crawl under my rock now Wink

Read the report -- it starts:

    On November 12, 2001, about 0916:15 eastern standard time, American Airlines flight 587, an Airbus Industrie A300-605R, N14053, crashed into a residential area of Belle Harbor, New York, shortly after takeoff from John F. Kennedy International Airport (JFK).


It did NOT have fly-by-wire. If it had, and it permitted the copilot to do what he did -- for any reason at all -- I would never get on another Airbus. The A320 had its teething problems with fly-by-wire as did the F16, and F22. But all three airplanes along with the F18 are idiot proof, or about as close as you can make them.
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NYC777
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RE: Airbus To Re-Test A380 Separations

Tue Nov 14, 2006 4:49 am

Ok an article just out (ironically) on Bloomberg stating that BA chief, Willie Walsh believes that the A380 WILL REDUCE HEATHROW CAPACITY:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...=conews&tkr=BA:US&sid=alRzsJ5zx89Q

This flies (pun not intended) in the face of the contention of some people who have posted on this thread that airlines need not worry about separation rules governing the A380.

Fair use Excerpt:

The A380 was supposed to have provided effectively the capacity of three airport landing slots for the price of two, Walsh said. ''That was the sales talk,'' he said. ''We know the outcome has been rather different.''

[Edited 2006-11-13 20:53:00]
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kaneporta1
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RE: Airbus To Re-Test A380 Separations

Tue Nov 14, 2006 4:55 am

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 24):
Dude, have some sensitivity and maturity here. In trying to defend a pretty-hard-to-defend comment ("Customers don't care about wake turbulence..."), now you're treading all over a lot of dead people.

The hard to defend statement on this thread is that Airbus doesn't care about safety. As far as my statement is concerned, I stand by it. Wake turbulence is an ATC matter, and their responsibility to keep a safe distance. If Airbus feels they can prove that a shorter distance between the 380 and other planes can be as safe, that's great, less trouble for ATC, but still no concern for the airline. Unless of course, the 380 is banned from airports for that reason.

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 24):
I know that you want to show your enthusiasm for the A380, but I'd respectfully implore you to be civil.

I never made any false accusations or speculated, I based my posts in facts. Hence I'm in no way disrespectful to anyone. I didn't bring up these accidents, I only showed that wake turbulence was not the cause.
I'd rather die peacefully in my sleep, like my grandfather, not terrified and screaming, like his passengers
 
NYC777
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RE: Airbus To Re-Test A380 Separations

Tue Nov 14, 2006 4:57 am

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 30):
The hard to defend statement on this thread is that Airbus doesn't care about safety. As far as my statement is concerned, I stand by it. Wake turbulence is an ATC matter, and their responsibility to keep a safe distance. If Airbus feels they can prove that a shorter distance between the 380 and other planes can be as safe, that's great, less trouble for ATC, but still no concern for the airline. Unless of course, the 380 is banned from airports for that reason.

See the reply above yours and you'll see how wrong you are.
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osiris30
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RE: Airbus To Re-Test A380 Separations

Tue Nov 14, 2006 5:07 am

Quoting Poitin (Reply 28):
It did NOT have fly-by-wire.

I wasn't arguing with you. I meant it when I said if you said so I would take your word for it. I lways thought the later 300s had some FBW on them. Probably due to the fact they did all their FBW dev on a 300. I assumed later models would be produced with it as a feature.
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Curmudgeon
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RE: Airbus To Re-Test A380 Separations

Tue Nov 14, 2006 5:09 am

You don't need FBW to have proportional hydraulic pressure available to flight controls. the 737 series aircraft have rudder pressure reducers that limit deflection at higher speeds.

On the 2+ minutes separation behind the JAL: Obviously the JAL aircraft didn't begin rolling for quite some time after the clearance was issued, a not uncommon thing, unfortunately.

On A380 wake separation and slots: It is correct to say that increased in trail approach separation will be offset by a departure between arrivals. Landing slots are not assigned based on approach speeds or separations. If that were the case slower aircraft that have a similar negative impact on arrival rates would be discouraged. This won't stop airport operators from charging a disproportionately higher landing fee if the A380 does indeed slow down the tempo of operations.

On A380 vortices: I wonder how Airbus is going to manage the perception that they are shopping for results? Perhaps they'd like a pharmaceutical company to handle that aspect of the testing?
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kaneporta1
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RE: Airbus To Re-Test A380 Separations

Tue Nov 14, 2006 5:11 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 31):
See the reply above yours and you'll see how wrong you are.

I'm sure SQ and QF will be greatly affected by this statement. 3 A380 flights to LHR per day (initially) will really screw the airport operations up...
I'd rather die peacefully in my sleep, like my grandfather, not terrified and screaming, like his passengers
 
Poitin
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RE: Airbus To Re-Test A380 Separations

Tue Nov 14, 2006 5:14 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 32):
I wasn't arguing with you. I meant it when I said if you said so I would take your word for it. I lways thought the later 300s had some FBW on them. Probably due to the fact they did all their FBW dev on a 300. I assumed later models would be produced with it as a feature.

The A320 was the first FBW airliner in production. As I remember a A310 or A300 was used as a FBW test bed, but it never went into commercial service. Perhaps it is this aircraft you are thinking of.
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NYC777
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RE: Airbus To Re-Test A380 Separations

Tue Nov 14, 2006 5:14 am

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 34):
I'm sure SQ and QF will be greatly affected by this statement. 3 A380 flights to LHR per day (initially) will really screw the airport operations up...

Yes according to Willie Walsh. You are wrong to think that airlines won't be worried about sep rules flying into and out of airports. It's not just an ATC problem it becomes an airline problem.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
OMA2FAI2SAV
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RE: Airbus To Re-Test A380 Separations

Tue Nov 14, 2006 5:19 am

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 30):
I never made any false accusations or speculated, I based my posts in facts. Hence I'm in no way disrespectful to anyone. I didn't bring up these accidents, I only showed that wake turbulence was not the cause.

First off, other peoples "facts" seem to disagree with yours. As has been documented and posted in replies before yours.

Second, While wake might not have brought down the aircraft in the replies before, it WAS the catalist in the wole thing. Without them hitting the wake of the aircraft before them, this more than likely would NOT have happened. Can we agree on that? If you can agree with that, then show some maturity and respect those people lost in these accidents.

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 30):
Wake turbulence is an ATC matter, and their responsibility to keep a safe distance.

True. But, if I was a customer of the A380, and had to adjust my arriving and departing flights into and out of my hub because of excessive wake from one of my whales, I take that as a matter of mine. If my flights are trailing further behind, allowing fewer takeoffs and landings, and delaying my other flights, I would be very, very upset. So in this sense, that is a customer matter, no?
If the best things in life are free, why am I always so broke?
 
Poitin
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RE: Airbus To Re-Test A380 Separations

Tue Nov 14, 2006 5:23 am

Quoting Curmudgeon (Reply 33):
You don't need FBW to have proportional hydraulic pressure available to flight controls. the 737 series aircraft have rudder pressure reducers that limit deflection at higher speeds.

true -- but the A300 didn't -- It had a mickey mouse stop.

Quoting Curmudgeon (Reply 33):
On A380 vortices: I wonder how Airbus is going to manage the perception that they are shopping for results? Perhaps they'd like a pharmaceutical company to handle that aspect of the testing?

oh, you are mean --- you mean you wouldn't trust them? Shameful! Big grin
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kaneporta1
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RE: Airbus To Re-Test A380 Separations

Tue Nov 14, 2006 5:31 am

Quoting OMA2FAI2SAV (Reply 37):
First off, other peoples "facts" seem to disagree with yours. As has been documented and posted in replies before yours.

www.ntsb.gov
www.aviation-safety.net

People can disagree all they want, the official causes are there to stay.

Quoting OMA2FAI2SAV (Reply 37):
Second, While wake might not have brought down the aircraft in the replies before, it WAS the catalist in the wole thing.

A burnt lightbulb was the catalyst for the Eastern Airlines Tristar. Does that mean lightbulbs are dangerous?
Wake turbulence is a necessary evil in aviation, but if treated correctly, it's an inconvenience, not a hazard.

Quoting OMA2FAI2SAV (Reply 37):
True. But, if I was a customer of the A380, and had to adjust my arriving and departing flights into and out of my hub because of excessive wake from one of my whales, I take that as a matter of mine. If my flights are trailing further behind, allowing fewer takeoffs and landings, and delaying my other flights, I would be very, very upset. So in this sense, that is a customer matter, no?

From an airline point of view, flight times are usually not decided with wake turbulence in mind. It's up to ATC to separate the airplanes efficiently to minimize airport impact.

Quoting Curmudgeon (Reply 33):
On A380 wake separation and slots: It is correct to say that increased in trail approach separation will be offset by a departure between arrivals.

That's an answer. No, it's not a perfect solution, but a way to work around the issue.
I'd rather die peacefully in my sleep, like my grandfather, not terrified and screaming, like his passengers
 
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glideslope
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RE: Airbus To Re-Test A380 Separations

Tue Nov 14, 2006 5:39 am

NOTHING is going change the way this airframe throws the wind. Unless there is some new wing modifications we are unaware of?

IMO, they knew this was going to be an issue. The political side has not materialized in their favor.

They should have gone with more thrust and a more critical wing design. The poor wing design (IMO) was the only way to get the beast up with the target performance at cruise, and climb.

Result? SEPARATION.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 2):
This is getting ridiculous and personally, I think Airbus is playing loose with our safety to make their product look better at this point. After all, it's not the A380 that might crash if Airbus is wrong, but the plane behind it.

Very loose, and, IMO, attempting to put undue pressure on the ICAO to become more political. Very concerning, IMO. A sign of just how bad things are.
 melting 
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
NYC777
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RE: Airbus To Re-Test A380 Separations

Tue Nov 14, 2006 5:48 am

If the ICAO sticks with these rules then what is the propect for the A380? I think you could forget about the A380-900 unless you're going to build a dedicated runway just for the beast.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
redflyer
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RE: Airbus To Re-Test A380 Separations

Tue Nov 14, 2006 6:00 am

Quoting Curmudgeon (Reply 33):
On A380 vortices: I wonder how Airbus is going to manage the perception that they are shopping for results?

Well, they obviously didn't like the overall results from the initial round of testing. And while it could look like they are shopping for results, the additional testing will allow them to identify exceptions to the overall results. More testing = more data points. More data points = identification of patterns. It could very well be the additional separation will be required only under certain circumstances. And like Astuteman pointed out in Reply #4, above, more testing could benefit everyone involved.

But if I were Airbus, I'd let sleeping dogs lie; the additional testing could prove to be a double-edged sword in that it may only further confirm the bad news.
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Pihero
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RE: Airbus To Re-Test A380 Separations

Tue Nov 14, 2006 6:08 am

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 27):
While I understand your math, there is more accurate information available. The NTSB expressly determined that there was one minute and 40 seconds between the aircraft at liftoff.

Don't play the semantics game with me . Separation between departing aircraft is taken at the start point. Every crew will start a stopwatch when they are departing behind another airplane.
I'm out of here, this is not my scene.
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Poitin
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RE: Airbus To Re-Test A380 Separations

Tue Nov 14, 2006 6:10 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 42):
But if I were Airbus, I'd let sleeping dogs lie; the additional testing could prove to be a double-edged sword in that it may only further confirm the bad news.

I agree.

In addition, the proposals from Airbus about different sized aircraft having many different separation distances is getting far too complex. As you increase the complexity, you increase the chances of someone screwing up and letting a smaller plane get too close by accident and thereby cause an accident.
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Danny
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RE: Airbus To Re-Test A380 Separations

Tue Nov 14, 2006 6:15 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 2):
This is getting ridiculous and personally, I think Airbus is playing loose with our safety to make their product look better at this point. After all, it's not the A380 that might crash if Airbus is wrong, but the plane behind it.

You are getting ridiculous in this blind Airbus bashing.
 
PolymerPlane
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RE: Airbus To Re-Test A380 Separations

Tue Nov 14, 2006 6:29 am

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 30):
The hard to defend statement on this thread is that Airbus doesn't care about safety. As far as my statement is concerned, I stand by it. Wake turbulence is an ATC matter, and their responsibility to keep a safe distance. If Airbus feels they can prove that a shorter distance between the 380 and other planes can be as safe, that's great, less trouble for ATC, but still no concern for the airline. Unless of course, the 380 is banned from airports for that reason.

Of course it is ATC's concern. ATC with ICAO has recommended a larger separation based on two Airbus's tests. What Airbus wants to do now is to do a retest so it could persuade ICAO to reduce the separation.

It is in Airbus's interest to reduce the separation and thus putting more flights at risks. So, if you really believe it should be ATC's concern, you should agree that Airbus should accept the ruling, and not mess around with it. The hard evidence that A380 creates larger wake is there. If the tests Airbus did were scientific enough, whatever conclusions ATC drew from it should not change by new tests.

Cheers,
PP
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ebbuk
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RE: Airbus To Re-Test A380 Separations

Tue Nov 14, 2006 6:36 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 2):
This is getting ridiculous and personally, I think Airbus is playing loose with our safety to make their product look better at this point. After all, it's not the A380 that might crash if Airbus is wrong, but the plane behind i



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 14):
Airbus really needs to consider here what they are doing. Are sales of the WhaleJet more important than the safety of the passengers and crew of the airplane behind it? Let's face the facts, now. Airbus has built a White Elephant.

It is sad to see that some members would ever suggest that Airbus cares less about safety than any other leading plane manufacturer on this earth. Shame on the both of you particularly, would have expected more

Airbus always said that they would review the data once the plane entered service. Seeing as that has been delayed, it seems particularly prudent to commence the testing now, rather than later.

Business as usual me thinks. When the figures show the separation can be reduced even further, it will be an extra feather in the 380's ever-sharpening bow
 
Poitin
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RE: Airbus To Re-Test A380 Separations

Tue Nov 14, 2006 7:00 am

Quoting Pihero (Reply 43):
Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 27):
While I understand your math, there is more accurate information available. The NTSB expressly determined that there was one minute and 40 seconds between the aircraft at liftoff.

Don't play the semantics game with me . Separation between departing aircraft is taken at the start point. Every crew will start a stopwatch when they are departing behind another airplane.
I'm out of here, this is not my scene.

Hey, man, read the NSTB report. It's in there.

http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2004/AAR0404.pdf

    The National Transportation Safety Board’s airplane performance study for this accident10 determined that flight 587 started its takeoff roll about 0913:51 and lifted off about 0914:29, which was about 1 minute 40 seconds after the Japan Air Lines airplane.11
see Page 17 of 212.


He was merely giving documented fact, not speculation as you were.
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Poitin
Posts: 2651
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RE: Airbus To Re-Test A380 Separations

Tue Nov 14, 2006 7:05 am

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 47):
It is sad to see that some members would ever suggest that Airbus cares less about safety than any other leading plane manufacturer on this earth. Shame on the both of you particularly, would have expected more

Are you naive? You mean that we can trust Airbus? I don't trust ANY company, having worked in too may areas where money is on the line. As for the aviation industry, the only way to get the FAA to change a rule is to have a crash.
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