AF454GRU
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Eurostar In 2007: LON To PAR In 2h15, BRU In 1h51

Tue Nov 14, 2006 8:03 pm

Hey guys!

I know we already talked a lot about this on a.net but...

Eurostar management released a note saying that last part of the high speed line between Ebbsfleet and London will be ready for November 14th 2007.

On that date all Eurostar's ops will be transferred from London Waterloo to
St. Pancras allowing London to be linked to Paris Gare du Nord in 2h15 and Brussels Midi in 1h51... Great isn't it!?

I'm a aviation enthusiast but I can't avoid a certain astonishment regarding this. Competition between London-Paris will be even harder...

Cheers,

Hugo
 
edina
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RE: Eurostar In 2007: LON To PAR In 2h15, BRU In 1h51

Tue Nov 14, 2006 8:25 pm

The train has certainly dented BA's revenues on LHR-CDG....before the tunnel, all flights were worked by 767s & Tri-Stars before that; however the first departures from LHR are rarely quiet.....the first service frequently leaves with between 50-70 in C class daily. The time advantage of the train is rapidly negated if not travelling city centre to city centre e.g. on an early flight the businessman with be more likely travelling from his suburban home to the west, south west, north west of London, a 0620 flight will get him to CDG at 0840 in time for a 0930-1000 meeting in northern Paris. The first Eurostar at 0534 currently arrives in Paris Gare du Nord at 0923.....leaving the traveller with a lengthy trek into Waterloo or St Pancras at the start of his journey.
We do have many business pax who will fly out early am & take the train back, to minimise their round trip journey times.
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HB-IWC
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RE: Eurostar In 2007: LON To PAR In 2h15, BRU In 1h51

Tue Nov 14, 2006 8:28 pm

Just as it happened with Brussels Paris, this rail link will sooner or later make flights between London and Paris/Brussels to a certain extent obsolete. Of course, CDG has a TGV station inside the airport, which saves even more time and allows Air France to just put its connecting passengers on the train. But, as far as O&D traffic goes, who still wants to go through the pains of moving through airports and clogged airways when Eurostar offers such a smooth option?
 
cornish
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RE: Eurostar In 2007: LON To PAR In 2h15, BRU In 1h51

Tue Nov 14, 2006 8:33 pm

Well LON-PAR is one thing, LON-BRU quite another.

The speeding up of services will be very welcome but unless they can provide an early morning service that gets into Brussels in time for a full business day it will still make the plane a better bet for me.

Currently the first train of the day leaves London at 07.43 and gets in to Brussels just before 11.00. This is no good for meetings that might start at 10am for example, meaning for me an early morning flight out of LHR is the option to get me into BRU before 09.00. The train means having to travel the night before and stay over.

So we may get faster trains to Brussels, but unless they do something about the awful timetable, it still won't bring any of the real benefits it should to make the train a good option.
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
MYT332
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RE: Eurostar In 2007: LON To PAR In 2h15, BRU In 1h51

Tue Nov 14, 2006 9:10 pm

Quoting Cornish (Reply 3):
Currently the first train of the day leaves London at 07.43 and gets in to Brussels just before 11.00

Negative; the 0610 arrives from London at 0937 in Brussels. Still, it's not much use if you have to be somewhere at 10am.

*Not a train geek*
One Life, Live it.
 
cornish
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RE: Eurostar In 2007: LON To PAR In 2h15, BRU In 1h51

Tue Nov 14, 2006 9:25 pm

Quoting Myt332 (Reply 4):
Negative; the 0610 arrives from London at 0937 in Brussels. Still, it's not much use if you have to be somewhere at 10am.

Hmm strangely if you use the quick online timetable on the website and select morning departures the 07:43 is the first shown - its only if you go into the full pdf download does it show a 0610.

Me'thinks the website needs some work.

Mind you the 06:10 only works if you can get actually get a train into central london that early.....
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
MYT332
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RE: Eurostar In 2007: LON To PAR In 2h15, BRU In 1h51

Tue Nov 14, 2006 9:32 pm

Quoting Cornish (Reply 5):
its only if you go into the full pdf download does it show a 0610.

That's true. I also searched the DFT's website for any timtable update past MAR07 but couldn't find anything. Surprisingly I did manage to find a recently amended PDF about Eurostar Regional routes. They listed the proposed first Manchester-Paris service as leaving at 0612 and arriving at 1324. Useless unless you're on leisure!
One Life, Live it.
 
BMIFlyer
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RE: Eurostar In 2007: LON To PAR In 2h15, BRU In 1h51

Tue Nov 14, 2006 9:38 pm

Quoting Cornish (Reply 3):
The speeding up of services will be very welcome but unless they can provide an early morning service that gets into Brussels in time for a full business day it will still make the plane a better bet for me.

Well, with phase 2 of the line being opened, the timetable will be redrawn, providing more trains and a clockface frequency timetable too.

From only a few miles out of St Pancras (on the new link), the trains will do 186mph all the way to the Channel Tunnel.

The advantages of phase 2 will be fantastic  Smile



Lee
Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own
 
TGV
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RE: Eurostar In 2007: LON To PAR In 2h15, BRU In 1

Tue Nov 14, 2006 10:44 pm

Quoting Edina (Reply 1):
The time advantage of the train is rapidly negated if not travelling city centre to city centre e.g. on an early flight the businessman with be more likely travelling from his suburban home to the west, south west, north west of London,

Very true, but you have to consider that patterns of access to stations will change, as the Eurostar service will be St Pancras only in London (no more Waterloo), but will also offer services stopping in the new station of Ebbsfleet (7 daily to Paris, 5 daily to Brussels).
Some people may find easier to reach Ebbsfleet than St Pancras (or LHR).
Avoid 777 with 3-4-3 config in Y ! They are real sardine cans. (AF/KL for example)
 
MYT332
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RE: Eurostar In 2007: LON To PAR In 2h15, BRU In 1h51

Tue Nov 14, 2006 10:47 pm

Quoting TGV (Reply 8):
Some people may find easier to reach Ebbsfleet than St Pancras (or LHR).

Isn't that the idea behind Ebbsfleet? It's just a huge park and ride car park in the middle of nowhere?
One Life, Live it.
 
TGV
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RE: Eurostar In 2007: LON To PAR In 2h15, BRU In 1h51

Tue Nov 14, 2006 11:07 pm

Quoting Myt332 (Reply 9):
Isn't that the idea behind Ebbsfleet? It's just a huge park and ride car park in the middle of nowhere?

Yes, the idea is to have an easy access from all the south-east, be it by car or by train (there will be high speed regional services between St Pancras and Ebbsfleet (225 km/h on the high speed line), then using conventional lines to Rochester/Brodstairs).
Avoid 777 with 3-4-3 config in Y ! They are real sardine cans. (AF/KL for example)
 
edina
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RE: Eurostar In 2007: LON To PAR In 2h15, BRU In 1h51

Tue Nov 14, 2006 11:28 pm

And it's on the worst stretch of the M25 for congestion!
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cornish
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RE: Eurostar In 2007: LON To PAR In 2h15, BRU In 1h51

Tue Nov 14, 2006 11:49 pm

Quoting TGV (Reply 8):
Some people may find easier to reach Ebbsfleet than St Pancras (or LHR).

to be honest, Ebsfleet will be far more used for commuters travelling into London, than for people heading out to the continent - its in the wrong place for that. and its not well located for where the bulk of the business passengers would live to get the services to the continent. Waterloo and St.Pancras is much better for that.

In the meantime the expensive Ashford International station is going to lose almost all its Eurostar services - if not all. That i don't understand. As a Eurostar station rather than a London commuter atation, it makes more sense than Ebbsfleet.

Quoting BMIFlyer (Reply 7):
Well, with phase 2 of the line being opened, the timetable will be redrawn, providing more trains and a clockface frequency timetable too.

That will be a good thing indeed - although losing Waterloo will be a pain for people like me who live to the South West of London. The hassle of getting to St.Pancras from home (unlike work) will make LHR the better option. From work, if i'm on an overnight effort then St.P. makes much more sense.
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
Humberside
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RE: Eurostar In 2007: LON To PAR In 2h15, BRU In 1h51

Wed Nov 15, 2006 1:59 am

The situation at Ashford is very bad but in Ebbsfleet defense dont forget it serves the Thames Gateway area which is set to massive redevelopment over the next few years
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cornish
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RE: Eurostar In 2007: LON To PAR In 2h15, BRU In 1h51

Wed Nov 15, 2006 2:08 am

Quoting Humberside (Reply 13):
but in Ebbsfleet defense dont forget it serves the Thames Gateway area which is set to massive redevelopment over the next few years

mmmm which will ultimately become a whole pile of featureless, bland troublesome estates. Not likely to be live din by the business traffic that might want to use the station to go to BRU or PAR. Inbound into london maybe, but as a Eurostar stop.....?
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
malmoaviation
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RE: Eurostar In 2007: LON To PAR In 2h15, BRU In 1h51

Wed Nov 15, 2006 2:17 am

One of Eurostar´s UK part is owned by BA. The train is nice to ride, and might be a good opportunity to business men, instead of going first west to LHR, then flying to CDG and going southwest into the city. But, of course, flying is the best and nicest way to travel.  Smile
 
PlymSpotter
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RE: Eurostar In 2007: LON To PAR In 2h15, BRU In 1h51

Wed Nov 15, 2006 2:30 am

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 2):
Just as it happened with Brussels Paris, this rail link will sooner or later make flights between London and Paris/Brussels to a certain extent obsolete.

I'm not so sure about that, the LHR-CDG operates as a feeder service for AF's extensive network, as likewise for BA. Most foreign carriers give preferential fares for passengers connecting in from other countries, so this alone should keep many of the flights on the LHR-CDG route viable, where as because of the rail servie directly from central Brussels into CDG on Thales there was no longer a need for flights to operate such a short route.

Dan Smile
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TGV
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RE: Eurostar In 2007: LON To PAR In 2h15, BRU In 1h51

Wed Nov 15, 2006 3:18 am

Quoting Cornish (Reply 12):
to be honest, Ebsfleet will be far more used for commuters travelling into London, than for people heading out to the continent - its in the wrong place for that. and its not well located for where the bulk of the business passengers would live to get the services to the continent. Waterloo and St.Pancras is much better for that.



Of course, it is only for a minority of users than Ebbsfleet will be more useful than St Pancras.

Quoting Cornish (Reply 12):
n the meantime the expensive Ashford International station is going to lose almost all its Eurostar services - if not all. That i don't understand. As a Eurostar station rather than a London commuter atation, it makes more sense than Ebbsfleet.

According to Richard Brown, Eurostar Director, and based on the actual origins of Eurostar passengers using Ashford, 2/3 of them will use Ebbsfleet when this station opens, as it will be more convenient for them than Ashford. Hence the shift in services from Ashford to Ebbsfleet.
Of course People still using Ashford would prefer to keep the existing services, but people from St Pancras and Ebbsfleet will prefer to avoid the Ashford stop.

From what I understand they plan no more Ashford-Brussels services, and 3 daily Ashford-Paris.
Avoid 777 with 3-4-3 config in Y ! They are real sardine cans. (AF/KL for example)
 
Humberside
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RE: Eurostar In 2007: LON To PAR In 2h15, BRU In 1h51

Wed Nov 15, 2006 6:19 am

Quoting TGV (Reply 17):
From what I understand they plan no more Ashford-Brussels services, and 3 daily Ashford-Paris.

Plus the ski/Disneyland/Avignon services will still stop at Ashford

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 16):
Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 2):
Just as it happened with Brussels Paris, this rail link will sooner or later make flights between London and Paris/Brussels to a certain extent obsolete.

I'm not so sure about that, the LHR-CDG operates as a feeder service for AF's extensive network, as likewise for BA. Most foreign carriers give preferential fares for passengers connecting in from other countries, so this alone should keep many of the flights on the LHR-CDG route viable, where as because of the rail servie directly from central Brussels into CDG on Thales there was no longer a need for flights to operate such a short route.

The only time I could see LHR-CDG under threat of reduction in frequency (on AF) is if trains run from St Pancras to the CDG station. At this point some passengers may prefer to use the train to catch their connecting CDG flight rather than the plane from LHR

The improved Eurostar is far more of a threat to LCY-ORY which is designed for business travellers between Central Paris and Central London/the Docklands. If Eurostar ends up stopping at Stratford International I think AF could face real pressure on that route
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ikramerica
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RE: Eurostar In 2007: LON To PAR In 2h15, BRU In 1h51

Wed Nov 15, 2006 6:40 am

All these points regarding the first arrival will be negated once the faster train starts.

Leave London and 6:00AM, arrive 9:30AM Paris
Leave 6:10AM London, arrive 9:00AM Brussels

Quoting Cornish (Reply 5):
Me'thinks the website needs some work.

Me thinks most european rail websites need some work. I find them frustrating to no end.

I think it might be because they have to work in so many languages, they end up not working in many of them well at all...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
MYT332
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RE: Eurostar In 2007: LON To PAR In 2h15, BRU In 1h51

Wed Nov 15, 2006 7:22 am

So what will be the point in Ashford then? High speed links to London from Kent only?
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boysteve
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RE: Eurostar In 2007: LON To PAR In 2h15, BRU In 1h51

Wed Nov 15, 2006 7:30 am

Quoting Myt332 (Reply 9):
Isn't that the idea behind Ebbsfleet? It's just a huge park and ride car park in the middle of nowhere?

Well it's close to the M25............

Quoting Edina (Reply 11):
And it's on the worst stretch of the M25 for congestion!

Really, I thought the South Western - Western part was the worst;
that is M3/LHR/M4/M40 ?
 
trintocan
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RE: Eurostar In 2007: LON To PAR In 2h15, BRU In 1h51

Thu Nov 16, 2006 4:14 am

Well, the new high speed Channel Tunnel Rail Link is being touted as the way of the future in terms of travel to the Continent. The new, expanded Eurostar services (with earlier and later trains to Brussels and Paris) will tie in with more high-speed services on the Continent to permit fast connections to Amsterdam, Cologne, Frankfurt Switzerland, Austria and even Barcelona by 2010. A multi-national tie-up of high speed European rail service providers is key to the new network.

While I love flying, Eurostar is fabulous to ride, very comfortable and relaxing and so fast. The slow trek out of Waterloo along old London commuter lines will soon be a thing of the past and can only enhance the appeal of the train. Furthermore, there are plans to have direct services to CDG, allowing it to become possibly London's best connected airport. This new link could thus hurt LHR in many more ways than merely a reduction in LHR - CDG flights.

What remains unresolved, though, is what will happen to the expensive Waterloo International station and North Pole, the service facility for Eurostar near Acton. Waterloo International station would probably be reconfigured for South West Trains' services, possibly its longer-haul routes but the track connections would have to be reworked. As for North Pole, it would not be possible for Eurostar to continue using it without long and circuitous routings of trains from St. Pancras to it (they would have to go almost to Ashford then back almost to Waterloo to get there).

The airlines, though, will certainly take a bigger hit in their profits on these busy routes.

TrinToCan.
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StarGoldLHR
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RE: Eurostar In 2007: LON To PAR In 2h15, BRU In 1h51

Thu Nov 16, 2006 4:44 am

if your in central london.. say Piccadilly..

and wanted to goto say.. Eiffel Tower...

By Air from LHR
=============
20 minutes Piccadilly - Paddington -
30 minutes Paddington - LHR ( 15 mins on train, plus say 5 mins waiting for the train, and 10 mins to walk to the correct terminal)
60 minutesCheckin time at the airport.
60 minutes Flight to CDG
20 minutes Baggage Collection at CDG
45 minutes TGV to Gare Du Nord
20 Minutes RER to CentreVille

total time = 4 hour 15 minutes.


By Train
========
20 minutes Piccadilly - St Pancras
30 minutesCheckin time at the airport.
125 minutes by train to Gare Du Nord
20 Minutes RER to CentreVille

total time = 3 hour 15 minutes.


By Air from LCY
=============
30 minutes Piccadilly - LCY
25 minutesCheckin time at the airport.
60 minutes Flight to CDG
20 minutes Baggage Collection at CDG
45 minutes TGV to Gare Du Nord
20 Minutes RER to CentreVille

total time = 3 Hour 20 minutes..


I can say these times are realistic ive done the route many times by all means.


LCY may be able compete,however LHR will be only for people who live out west, or connecting passengers.


Brussels will lose lose to the eurostar... it already has today at 2hr 30 now, bmi etc are on their uppers competing.
So far in 2008 45 flights and Gold already. JFK, IAD, LGA, SIN, HKG, NRT, AKL, PPT, LAX still to book ! Home Airport LCY
 
Humberside
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RE: Eurostar In 2007: LON To PAR In 2h15, BRU In 1h51

Thu Nov 16, 2006 4:55 am

Quoting Trintocan (Reply 22):
What remains unresolved, though, is what will happen to the expensive Waterloo International station and North Pole, the service facility for Eurostar near Acton. Waterloo International station would probably be reconfigured for South West Trains' services, possibly its longer-haul routes but the track connections would have to be reworked. As for North Pole, it would not be possible for Eurostar to continue using it without long and circuitous routings of trains from St. Pancras to it (they would have to go almost to Ashford then back almost to Waterloo to get there).

There was a rumour in one of the Railway Magazines of EWS moving into North Pole as they will get kicked out of Old Oak Common for Crossrail

Waterloo International is going to be used by South West Trains - I think Windsor services but dont quote me on that
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Summa767
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RE: Eurostar In 2007: LON To PAR In 2h15, BRU In 1h51

Thu Nov 16, 2006 5:01 am

Quoting AF454GRU (Thread starter):
all Eurostar's ops will be transferred from London Waterloo to
St. Pancras allowing London to be linked to Paris Gare du Nord in 2h15 and Brussels Midi in 1h51... Great isn't it!?

Great indeed!
I would be quite happy for some flights connecting LHR and CDG / Brussels to be lost. That would free up slots for route where air travel is the only real alternative.

In an ideal world I would also like to see a mag lev train between LHR and Birmingham, Manchester and beyond, as has been dreamed about before. Again, loosing some short flights to Manchester, Edinburgh and Glasgow for instance.
 
TGV
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RE: Eurostar In 2007: LON To PAR In 2h15, BRU In 1h51

Thu Nov 16, 2006 5:40 am

Off topic!
Domestic service planned in 2009 on the CTRL line during peak periods, per hour:
- 3 St Pancras-Rochester,
- 3 St Pancras-Broadstairs,
- 2 St Pancras-Ashford-Ramsgate/Dover
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N1120A
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RE: Eurostar In 2007: LON To PAR In 2h15, BRU In 1h51

Thu Nov 16, 2006 5:49 am

Quoting Trintocan (Reply 22):
What remains unresolved, though, is what will happen to the expensive Waterloo International station and North Pole, the service facility for Eurostar near Acton. Waterloo International station would probably be reconfigured for South West Trains' services, possibly its longer-haul routes but the track connections would have to be reworked. As for North Pole, it would not be possible for Eurostar to continue using it without long and circuitous routings of trains from St. Pancras to it (they would have to go almost to Ashford then back almost to Waterloo to get there).

AFAIK, North Pole is done with Eurostar as soon as services transfer. As far as Waterloo goes, there has been some interest in keeping a Eurostar presence and then running the Eurostar trains from there to Heathrow.

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 23):
By Air from LHR
=============
20 minutes Piccadilly - Paddington -
30 minutes Paddington - LHR ( 15 mins on train, plus say 5 mins waiting for the train, and 10 mins to walk to the correct terminal)
60 minutesCheckin time at the airport.
60 minutes Flight to CDG
20 minutes Baggage Collection at CDG
45 minutes TGV to Gare Du Nord
20 Minutes RER to CentreVille

total time = 4 hour 15 minutes.

Why would you take the TGV to GDN and the RER to a station that doesn't exist? The RER takes 34 minutes to get from CDG to Chatelet, which is rather central.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
dank
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RE: Eurostar In 2007: LON To PAR In 2h15, BRU In 1h51

Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:48 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 27):
As far as Waterloo goes, there has been some interest in keeping a Eurostar presence and then running the Eurostar trains from there to Heathrow.

I believe that this was ruled out as not being economically feasible and no eurostar trains will call on waterloo once service is begun on the new link.

cheers.
 
N1120A
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RE: Eurostar In 2007: LON To PAR In 2h15, BRU In 1h51

Thu Nov 16, 2006 7:43 am

Quoting Dank (Reply 28):
I believe that this was ruled out as not being economically feasible and no eurostar trains will call on waterloo once service is begun on the new link.

I realize that at this point, everything is switching to St. Pancras, but the possibility still exists. Then again, Waterloo Regional is so overcrowded, it would benefit the public to have it expand.
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trintocan
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RE: Eurostar In 2007: LON To PAR In 2h15, BRU In 1h51

Thu Nov 16, 2006 7:51 am

Dank, you are right. N1120A, there will be no Eurostar services from Waterloo once the Channel Tunnel Rail Link starts up in November 2007. Eurostar had toyed with the idea but decided it was unfeasible to operate 2 London termini.

TrinToCan.
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BCNGRO
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RE: Eurostar In 2007: LON To PAR In 2h15, BRU In 1h51

Thu Nov 16, 2006 8:43 am

I'm afraid this will affect flights somehow. However, good news are that this will make us less dependant on oil when it becomes too expensive...

Same thing will probably happen in BCN when high speed links the city with MAD in 2h30 and CDG in 4h30 (supposedly).
At the bus station, buses stop. At the train station, trains stop. At my desk, I have a work station.

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