scalebuilder
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Pan Am And TWA Intra-European Service

Wed Nov 15, 2006 8:47 am

Does anyone have details and links to further information of Pan Am's and TWA's intra-European services? I am curious as to how significant these operations were at their height and how extensive the nework was for each carrier.

I know both carriers flew and had either 727s and/or 737s stationed in Europe on a permanent basis. Does anyone know what each airline called their "base" for these operations?

I flew with Pan Am on multiple segments within Europe in the late 80s. Never had the opportunity to fly with TWA, though I sense that their local European operations must have been much smaller in scale in comparison to Pan Am.

Thanks for your insight.

Sincerely,

Scalebuilder
Go the extra mile......and avoid the traffic!!!
 
panamair
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RE: Pan Am And TWA Intra-European Service

Wed Nov 15, 2006 9:09 am

Pan Am had hubs at both LHR and FRA with various intra-European spokes. In addition, they also had an Internal German Service (IGS) operation out of TXL.

The IGS operation out of TXL had nonstops to FRA, MUC, NUE, STR, and HAM with 727s primarily (there were some 737s and A310s during sporadic periods as well). There was also a TXL-ZRH (727/737) as well as ATR42 flights from TXL to Kiel, Dortmund, Westerland/Sylt, BSL, HAJ.

The LHR intra-European flights included 747/727 service to FRA, 727 service to AMS (no local traffic rights), BRU (no local traffic rights), MUC. HAM, FBU (continuing on to HEL). At various times, there was also 727 service between LHR and DUS, CGN, and CPH.

The FRA intra-European flights included mostly 727 service to Eastern Europe (WAW, PRG, BUD, OTP, VIE, Krakow, SVO, LED, ZAG, BEG, DBV), IST/Ankara, ATH, ARN. Also, there was 747 service to India (BOM, DEL) and towards the end, A310 service nonstop to NBO.
 
Gemuser
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RE: Pan Am And TWA Intra-European Service

Wed Nov 15, 2006 9:26 am

Pan Am had two different internal European services.

The largest was the "Internal German Sevices" which linked major Weat German cities to Berlin. Cities includes Frankfurt, Munich & Hamburg, at least, there were others. These services in the main used B727.

The others were, what we would today, call tags on services from the US. Remember that in those days most flights normally had transit stops, that is intermediate ports of call on the same flight, NOT connections. PA developed the idea of using FRA as a hub to feed flight to smaller european cities in the 1960s, as they already had the aircraft and infastructure in place, because of the Internal German Services. They extended the idea to other ports but I dont have any more details to hand at the moment.

Pan Am also had services to Africa and Asia and their round the world services which passed thru Europe, these also provided inter European services.

I know nothing about TWA services.

The following sites may help you:
http://www.airchive.com/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimyvrroutemap/


Gemuser
DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
 
swissy
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RE: Pan Am And TWA Intra-European Service

Wed Nov 15, 2006 9:32 am

Quoting Panamair (Reply 1):
There was also a TXL-ZRH (727/737)

Yes that is the one my dad used all the times.... in the 80's and I never ask him why PA and no one else????

Cheers,
 
BigGSFO
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RE: Pan Am And TWA Intra-European Service

Wed Nov 15, 2006 9:32 am

TWA offered various intra-European flights through the years:

CDG-MXP, ZRH, GVA, MUC, STR (CDG was the closest thing to Euro-hub)
LGW-FRA (tag from BWI)
AMS-BRU (tag from JFK)
TXL-FRA, STR, MUC (when TW was awarded Berlin service)
LIS-BCN (tag from JFK)
CPH-FBU (triangle flight from JFK)
FCO-ATH (tag from JFK)
FRA-SVO, VIE, IST (operated with 727's. FRA-VIE was later co-shared with OS. Did SVO ever start?)
 
scalebuilder
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RE: Pan Am And TWA Intra-European Service

Wed Nov 15, 2006 9:38 am

Interesting information..

I had the pleasure of flying Pan Am on too many occasions to even mention within Europe. Obviously when preferring this airline for the trans-atlantic crossing, they will also offer you the seamless connecting flights as part of the solution. Being a student at that time, the value for the money was simply incredible.

A TWA 727 was high-jacked and kept in Beirut for several days in the middle 80s. I believe that the flight may have originated in Athens. Any further knowledge of this? Pan Ams narrow-bodies were common sights across Europe in this time period, but I can't seem to recall having seen TWAs narrow-bodies at any airports anywhere in Europe. I traveled extensively during this decade. You seem to be incredibly knowledgable of Pan Am. Do you have any additional knowledge of the TWA operations?

Thanks again for your reply!

Scalebuilder
Go the extra mile......and avoid the traffic!!!
 
scalebuilder
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RE: Pan Am And TWA Intra-European Service

Wed Nov 15, 2006 10:19 am

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 4):
Did SVO ever start?)

That is an interesting question. Anybody with further knowledge in the forum?
Go the extra mile......and avoid the traffic!!!
 
vv701
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RE: Pan Am And TWA Intra-European Service

Wed Nov 15, 2006 10:19 am

A look through a.net photos added to my own records shows that between 1968 and 1991 PA based a minimum of 66 727s and 15 737s in Europe (but obviously not all at the same time).

Aircraft photographed at airports other than those listed in Panamair's informative post - see Reply 1 - include CDG (1) and a little surprisingly several European holiday destinations. Amongst these are FAO (7 727s photographed), PMI (4), MLA (1) and SZG (1). Another shows a 727 (N318PA) at ARN on 19 June 1977 'about to depart for LHR'. There is also a 727 (N357PA) photographed at SNN in August 1971, but I guess this might have been on a ferry flight back to the USA.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Pan Am And TWA Intra-European Service

Wed Nov 15, 2006 10:53 am

Quoting Panamair (Reply 1):
Pan Am had hubs at both LHR and FRA with various intra-European spokes. In addition, they also had an Internal German Service (IGS) operation out of TXL.

PA's Berlin service used THF (Tempelhof) until sometime in the mid 1970s, probably when the new TXL terminal opened in 1974. I flew PA HAM-THF-HAM on a 727-100 in 1970.

DL maintained many of the former PA international tag sectors beyond FRA using 727-200s for a while after DL purchased most of PA's Europe routes, but they were gradually all eliminated.

UA also based several 727-200s in Europe to operate a number of tag sectors, including several from Paris. Those services were also dropped after a few years. Two UA sectors I clearly recall sometime in the early 1990s were CDG-GVA and CDG-ATH.
 
PanAm747
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RE: Pan Am And TWA Intra-European Service

Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:10 am

Quote:
A TWA 727 was high-jacked and kept in Beirut for several days in the middle 80s. I believe that the flight may have originated in Athens. Any further knowledge of this? Pan Ams narrow-bodies were common sights across Europe in this time period, but I can't seem to recall having seen TWAs narrow-bodies at any airports anywhere in Europe. I traveled extensively during this decade. You seem to be incredibly knowledgable of Pan Am. Do you have any additional knowledge of the TWA operations?

The incident you speak of was TWA flight #847. This particular flight originated in Cairo, stopped at Athens, and was on its way to Rome. After the incident, the 727 sat at Beirut for several weeks/months before a TWA crew was airlifted in and flew the plane out. It returned to the U.S., and ironically operated TWA's last revenue 727 flight!!

In the mid-1980's, TWA's service was routed JFK-FCO-ATH-CAI, with passengers continuing to Athens and/or Cairo switching to a 727 at Rome, and returning, the procedure was vice-versa.

I seem to remember that Tel Aviv had a similar routing for a while, but this was switched to TLV-Paris-JFK, and later to TLV-JFK.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
USPIT10L
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RE: Pan Am And TWA Intra-European Service

Wed Nov 15, 2006 12:25 pm

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 4):
Did SVO ever start

IIRC TW had BRU-SVO in 1991 only. I don't recall a FRA-SVO service with TW.
It's a Great Day for Hockey!
 
Ryanair!!!
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RE: Pan Am And TWA Intra-European Service

Wed Nov 15, 2006 1:13 pm

Pardon my ignorance. This arrangement seems rather impossible nowadays in our present economic climate. How did PA/TW manage that, as foreign airlines, to get the access to European airports? Especially so in PA's case, when they were flying domestically within Germany.
Welcome to my starry one world alliance, a team in the sky!
 
Snoopy
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RE: Pan Am And TWA Intra-European Service

Wed Nov 15, 2006 1:34 pm

Quoting Ryanair!!! (Reply 11):
Pardon my ignorance. This arrangement seems rather impossible nowadays in our present economic climate. How did PA/TW manage that, as foreign airlines, to get the access to European airports? Especially so in PA's case, when they were flying domestically within Germany.

Only US, British and French airlines were allowed into Berlin during the days of the Berlin Wall. That explains the German issue anyway.
 
bps3458
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RE: Pan Am And TWA Intra-European Service

Wed Nov 15, 2006 1:50 pm

I remember flying a PA 737-200 named "Clipper Wilmersdorf" from LHR in to HAM with continuing service continued in to Berlin. Must have been around 1985. Plane looked like it was going to fall apart any minute and the smell inside the cabin prior to take off reminded me of a petrol station.
 
tbear815
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RE: Pan Am And TWA Intra-European Service

Wed Nov 15, 2006 2:45 pm

In reference to BigGSFO, I flew PA LIS/BCN 747-100 in the early '70's. Local traffic permitted - last minute decision. Very fast flight - tag from JFK with the crew to prove it. Regardless, it was a good flight as all PA flights used to be good. I didn't know TW flew this route as well.

The only TW flight intra-Europe leg I took was MLG-MAD continuing to JFK. No local traffic MLG-MAD (Drink service only). 747-100 in F/Y configuration. Actually in F with Julio Inglesias across the aisle (MAD-JFK). Crew MLG-MAD were tag crew from JFK - and very good. Boarding crew at MAD were old even then (mid-'70s). Food and coffee boarded MAD were horrible! Not at all what was expected from trans-Atlantic 747 First in those days.

We got where we were going and often that US flag looked awfully good in parts of the World in those days. But then, the airlines really knew how to fly in style...
 
PanHAM
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RE: Pan Am And TWA Intra-European Service

Wed Nov 15, 2006 4:57 pm

Quoting Ryanair!!! (Reply 11):
Pardon my ignorance. This arrangement seems rather impossible nowadays in our present economic climate. How did PA/TW manage that, as foreign airlines, to get the access to European airports? Especially so in PA's case, when they were flying domestically within Germany

First of all, the US, UK and France had sovereignty over Berlin until 1990. LH was not allowed to fly to West Berlin, the Russians who had de facto sovereignty over their East berlins ector would not have allowed that.

PA and TW had (and on the paper the DL/UA still have) extensive beyond rights from Germany which allowed them to build a FRA hub operation. A similar situation exists in Japan with NW exploiting their beyond rights.

This is all dating back from the aftermaths of WWII.

@ BigGSFO - your listing is good but incomplete, there are many more tag flights but they changed frequentrly over the years, I flew TWA FRA/LHR vv many times in the 70s and that usually was a 707, same a/c that came from JFK.
.

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 4):
TWA offered various intra-European flights through the years:
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Tristarsteve
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RE: Pan Am And TWA Intra-European Service

Wed Nov 15, 2006 5:09 pm

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 4):
TWA offered various intra-European flights through the years



Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 4):
CPH-FBU (triangle flight from JFK)

The TWA triangle was usually JFK-ARN-CPH-JFK. Started with Tristar in 1987 and was B767-200 that winter and alternated between the two until the last flight on 23 Oct 1992 which was B767 16001.(because I flew to CPH on it). The routing changed now and then. One summer we had non stop ARN-JFK and for a month we had a B727 shuttle to CDG, as the long runway in ARN was closed. Then one year they tried JFK-FBU-ARN-JFK with a separate CPH flight. One day there was a large load out of FBU, and TWA routed the other way. But then realised that an L1011 can't get out of FBU with JFK fuel!
The route was always daily and full in the summer, but poor loads and 5/week in the winter. Sometimes TWA would substitute a L1011-1 and then the dispatcher had fun trying to make JFK non-stop!
 
antonovman
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RE: Pan Am And TWA Intra-European Service

Wed Nov 15, 2006 5:14 pm

"Did SVO ever start?" yes it did but by PanAm not TWA. I worked for PA in FRA in those days and actually worked the first SVO flt at the gate. For some reason the airport authority wouldnt display the flight on the information boards and the Bundesgrenschutz (german border police) checked all pax passports at the gate. After that first flight it became just another flight. It went on to LED after SVO
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: Pan Am And TWA Intra-European Service

Wed Nov 15, 2006 5:23 pm

Just remembered. TWA had B727 based in CDG to operate the routes. I remember that one autumn every body was sent on MD80 training as they were going to change to MD80s. Then at the last minute, just before the winter season started it was all cancelled. The MD80 never crossed the Atlantic.
 
Billy
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RE: Pan Am And TWA Intra-European Service

Wed Nov 15, 2006 7:43 pm

There used to be a regular 737-200 into HEL operated by PA. Not sure where it flew to but the operation did not last long.
 
Dtw757
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RE: Pan Am And TWA Intra-European Service

Wed Nov 15, 2006 9:20 pm

I flew on TWA in 1989 from DTW-JFK-AMS-HAM. Flight 814 operated JFK-AMS as L1011 and AMS-HAM-TXL with a 727-100. Flight 815 operated just opposite. TWA had quite a few 727-100's in service in Europe in the late 80's. This was my first flight with TWA, and my only flights with the L1011 and 727-100.


Here we are boarding the 727-100 before departing HAM for AMS.
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f254/tolaviator/10-29-2006011339PM.jpg

I have a TWA timetable from 1989 and there are many inter-European routes which I can look up if you're interested.
721,2,732,3,4,5,G,8,9,741,2,3,4,752,3,762,3,4,772,3,788,D93,5,M80,D10,M11,L10,100,AB6,319,20,21,332,3,346,388,146,CR2,7,
 
1stfl94
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RE: Pan Am And TWA Intra-European Service

Wed Nov 15, 2006 9:28 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 15):
First of all, the US, UK and France had sovereignty over Berlin until 1990. LH was not allowed to fly to West Berlin, the Russians who had de facto sovereignty over their East berlins ector would not have allowed that.

PA and TW had (and on the paper the DL/UA still have) extensive beyond rights from Germany which allowed them to build a FRA hub operation. A similar situation exists in Japan with NW exploiting their beyond rights.

This is all dating back from the aftermaths of WWII.

British Airlines also did the same during the Cold War. British Airways and Dan Air both had fairly substantial operations out of Berlin (BA aimed largely at internal German flights while Dan Air used to fly holiday routes from Berlin to the Med). Both of these however stopped in the 1990s (BA started Deutsche BA while Dan Air went bankrupt)
 
philb
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RE: Pan Am And TWA Intra-European Service

Wed Nov 15, 2006 10:03 pm

BA used to operate a service to Berlin from Heathrow via Hannover and from Glasgow/Manchester via Dusseldorf using the 1-11 fleet. At the German stop German cabin crew would join the flight. Used the services many times.

In the 1950s and 1960s Pan American's intra German services were operated by DC3s and DC6s.

There are publications around with photos of DC3s and DC6s looking very smart in the late 1950s/1960s Globe scheme - no doubt someone can also point to such photos on the Net.
 
stirling
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RE: Pan Am And TWA Intra-European Service

Wed Nov 15, 2006 10:44 pm

TWA also had a flight that dipped into Africa for a bit on its way from Lisbon to Athens.
JFK-LIS-MAD-ALG-TUN-FCO-ATH
I would say Rome was probably one of TWA's busier European cities...being the bookend for many of the flights working their way through from JFK/BOS.
Routes such as:
BOS-SNN-CDG-GVA-MXP-FCO-(ATH-TLV)
JFK-LHR-FRA-ZRH-FCO-(CAI-DHA-BOM)
JFK-SMA-LIS-MAD-FCO
JFK-FCO
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PanHAM
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RE: Pan Am And TWA Intra-European Service

Wed Nov 15, 2006 10:56 pm

Quoting 1stfl94 (Reply 21):
British Airlines also did the same during the Cold War. British Airways and Dan Air both had fairly substantia

of course. we have discussed this here not too long ago. Before West German regained full sovereignty in 1955 and Lufthansa was re established, Germany was openh market for KLM, SAS, SABENA, Air France, BEA, BOAC and Swissair. Even into the late 60s AF had routes like PAR-HAM-ANC-TYO or BOAC had routings through DUS to the Far East, operating with Comets and VC10s.

Berlin was a domain for the 3 allied powers until 1990, AF flew only via DUS and BE/PA divided the cake between them, some cities like HAM / HAJ had both carriers whereas DUS/CGN had BA only and FRA PA only operating to ZHF and later TXL.

Quite impressive operations at THF BTW, I once made a 25 mins connection there.
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philb
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RE: Pan Am And TWA Intra-European Service

Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:05 pm

If I remember rightly, once BEA started operating the 1-11 all Air France flights to Berlin were operated by BEA under a code share and the BEA aircraft carried dark blue tails with Super 1-11 in white and the BEA logo at the front of the cabin roof was very small.

The whole fleet was like this until the advent of BA, after which I believe the codeshare continued though the BA aircraft were in full colours.
 
BCAL
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RE: Pan Am And TWA Intra-European Service

Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:20 pm

Quoting 1stfl94 (Reply 21):
British Airlines also did the same during the Cold War. British Airways and Dan Air both had fairly substantial operations out of Berlin (BA aimed largely at internal German flights while Dan Air used to fly holiday routes from Berlin to the Med). Both of these however stopped in the 1990s (BA started Deutsche BA while Dan Air went bankrupt)

A few corrections. The present BA never had any of their fingers in the German domestic market. It was their predecessor British European Airways (BEA) (not to be confused by younger a.netters with flybe who is also known as British European) that operated between Berlin and West German cities as well as to LHR and other airports. As stated previously, under the post WW2 agreement between the Allies, LH was not allowed to operate into Berlin and therefore the right was shared by BEA, AF and PanAm.

There were other Western airlines that were also allowed to operate to/from Berlin, most notably Air Berlin which initially was US owned, but mainly on non-scheduled flights.

BEA based some aircraft at Berlin. The staff were mainly sourced from the UK but BEA also had German cabin crews.

The restrictions to operate to/from Berlin also applied to charter airlines and UK charter carriers, notably Dan-Air (London) and Laker, based aircraft and staff in Berlin to operate ad-hoc charters for German tour operators.

Dan-Air did not go bankrupt. They were sold by their owners to BA, albeit for only GBP 1 (plus BA took on all Dan-Air's debt).
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
 
BCAL
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RE: Pan Am And TWA Intra-European Service

Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:23 pm

Quoting Philb (Reply 25):
If I remember rightly, once BEA started operating the 1-11 all Air France flights to Berlin were operated by BEA under a code share and the BEA aircraft carried dark blue tails with Super 1-11 in white and the BEA logo at the front of the cabin roof was very small.

Yes I remember that too. It caused quite a stir at BEA Head Office, who thought they had gained one over their rivals at BOAC!
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
 
scalebuilder
Posts: 605
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RE: Pan Am And TWA Intra-European Service

Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:03 am

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 16):
But then realised that an L1011 can't get out of FBU with JFK fuel!

I think I can testify to this without being scientific.

My girlfriend and I flew FBU-ARN-JFK back in the summer of either 88 or 89. At FBU the L1011 needed every inch of runway to get airborne. Thrilling!

Not exactly a good start to the journey to fly to ARN first, and to board a cabin that is in bad need of cleaning with a cabin crew that is tired. However, the price was right.
Go the extra mile......and avoid the traffic!!!
 
philb
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RE: Pan Am And TWA Intra-European Service

Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:21 am

Quoting BCAL (Reply 26):
A few corrections. The present BA never had any of their fingers in the German domestic market. It was their predecessor British European Airways (BEA) (not to be confused by younger a.netters with flybe who is also known as British European) that operated between Berlin and West German cities as well as to LHR and other airports.

Sorry, BCAL, that's incorrect. BA flew internal German services until just after the fall of the Berlin Wall.

Under the 4 power agreement which lasted until re-unification the only aircraft allowed to fly to West Berlin were aircraft registered in the US, UK, France and, strangely, Poland.

Any aircraft, military, commercial or private could use the corridors.

BA aircraft flew the internal services throughout the period providing service from Hamburg, Hanover and Dusseldorf but, unlike BEA, there were few services which were just to/from West Germany - Berlin, most originated/terminated at Heathrow, one a day through Dusseldorf served both Manchester and Glasgow.

I flew with BA on all their routes to Berlin both direct and via German intermediate points many times between 1973 and 1986.

In March 1982 I flew Berlin- Heathrow direct, the 1-11 used having flown Berlin-Hannover-Berlin as the previous 2 sectors.
 
BCAL
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RE: Pan Am And TWA Intra-European Service

Thu Nov 16, 2006 1:10 am

Quoting Philb (Reply 29):
Sorry, BCAL, that's incorrect. BA flew internal German services until just after the fall of the Berlin Wall

Thanks for the correction. You are absolutely right - BOAC and BEA were disolved on 1 September 1972 and BA was formed on the same day, so BA did fly German internal services from then until just after the fall of the Berlin Wall on 11/12 November 1989.  embarrassed 
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
 
Tango-Bravo
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RE: Pan Am And TWA Intra-European Service

Thu Nov 16, 2006 2:35 am

An interesting observation I have made, based on circumstantial photo evidence, is that the equipment utilized by PA, TW, DL and UA on their intra-European services during the 1980s-early 90s was mainly 727-200s and, without exception that I can recall, the 727-200s all four airlines flew within Europe were their among their oldest aircraft of the type.
 
KL577
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RE: Pan Am And TWA Intra-European Service

Thu Nov 16, 2006 2:48 am

Quoting DTW757 (Reply 20):
I flew on TWA in 1989 from DTW-JFK-AMS-HAM. Flight 814 operated JFK-AMS as L1011 and AMS-HAM-TXL with a 727-100. Flight 815 operated just opposite. TWA had quite a few 727-100's in service in Europe in the late 80's. This was my first flight with TWA, and my only flights with the L1011 and 727-100.


Here we are boarding the 727-100 before departing HAM for AMS.

I flew TW 815 and TW 814 too in 1989! In JFK we connected for Tulsa. On the return flight we missed our connection in JFK and TW paid us a hotel in NYC (worse things can happen). The next evening TW 814 to AMS was overbooked and I and my mum were upgraded to First Class! I never realized a B727 flew AMS-HAM, I always thought it was the same Tristar.

Anyway, it was my first real flight ever (was only 9), first and only flight on L1011, first and only flight on B727 (JFK-TUL), and my only first class experience. Still have good memories of flying TWA, sad they no longer exist....
 
philb
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RE: Pan Am And TWA Intra-European Service

Thu Nov 16, 2006 2:53 am

Pan Am 727-100s were still in Berlin up to early 1982. Pan Am had a number of 737s operating out of LHR and in Germany but the bulk of the flights were 727-200s with all carriers and, generally, they tended to be older by date - cycles and hours may have been a different matter.
 
Dtw757
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RE: Pan Am And TWA Intra-European Service

Thu Nov 16, 2006 4:27 am

Quoting KL577 (Reply 32):
I flew TW 815 and TW 814 too in 1989! In JFK we connected for Tulsa. On the return flight we missed our connection in JFK and TW paid us a hotel in NYC (worse things can happen). The next evening TW 814 to AMS was overbooked and I and my mum were upgraded to First Class! I never realized a B727 flew AMS-HAM, I always thought it was the same Tristar.

Anyway, it was my first real flight ever (was only 9), first and only flight on L1011, first and only flight on B727 (JFK-TUL), and my only first class experience. Still have good memories of flying TWA, sad they no longer exist....

Wow sounds like a nice experience for you. Maybe we were even on the same flight....we had a 1 in 365 chance of that.

Yep TWA did operate the 727 out of AMS, I remember it well. We even did a powerback at the gate. It is a shame about TWA, I'm glad I got to fly them that trip and a few others to STL.
721,2,732,3,4,5,G,8,9,741,2,3,4,752,3,762,3,4,772,3,788,D93,5,M80,D10,M11,L10,100,AB6,319,20,21,332,3,346,388,146,CR2,7,
 
Tan Flyr
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RE: Pan Am And TWA Intra-European Service

Thu Nov 16, 2006 4:44 am

Quoting Ryanair!!! (Reply 11):
Pardon my ignorance. This arrangement seems rather impossible nowadays in our present economic climate. How did PA/TW manage that, as foreign airlines, to get the access to European airports? Especially so in PA's case, when they were flying domestically within Germany.

Remember that prior to, during, and for a while after WWII, PA was the "Chosen Instrument" of US foreign flying. Pan American had tremenous clout in Washington DC for all its' efforts in WWII. Thru the 30's,40's and upto the mid-60's in many locations the PA station manager has as much clout as the American ambassdor, if there was one. In some circumstances, he WAS the defacto ambassdor.

TWA,(Howard Hughes), as I recall finally got trans-Atlantic rights at the December 1944 Chicago conferance that set the stage for global civil aviation post WWII. TWA helped Iberia, EgyptAir and others become modern airlines thru the 50's and into the 70's.

TWA developed more of southern Europe, N.Africa, the Middle east. I have an old TWA tour book from 1957 that lists all kinds of once/twice weekly service on TWA including Basra, Bagdad, Beruit, Algiers, Tripoli, Libya and a host of other unique places at that time.

As the 60's/70's progressed, TWA built a hub at CDG to compete with PA's FRA/LHR mini hubs.Some of the services from BOS/JFK/LAX etc to CDG continued on tags to Nice, and other locations. At times operated with 707's then later 727's

Some years ago on here there was another thread about these services theat PA and TW had in those days. Someone had posted a link to a list of all the TWA route authorites, dormant and active, in effect still at 2001. We know the LHR ones went to AA in 91(?)

Hope this helps.
 
GECMD11
Posts: 52
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 4:43 am

RE: Pan Am And TWA Intra-European Service

Thu Nov 16, 2006 4:56 am

Not sure if TW service to SVO ever got off the ground......
it was to be BRU-SVO with a MD80. not sure if it ever went thru?
My dad worked for TWA in the glory days,and i remember a old timetable
with SVO service in it.....

DE
 
PanHAM
Posts: 8635
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Pan Am And TWA Intra-European Service

Thu Nov 16, 2006 5:50 am

Quoting Philb (Reply 33):
Pan Am 727-100s were still in Berlin up to early 1982. Pan Am had a number of 737s operating out of LHR and in Germany but the bulk of the flights were 727-200s with all carriers and, generally, they tended to be older by date - cycles and hours may have been a different matter

PanAm switched from DC6Bs to 727-100 and replaced these with 727-200 later. The 200s were supplemented by 737-200 but also with A300 and A310 exclusively on IGS services.

Quoting TAN FLYR (Reply 35):

As the 60's/70's progressed, TWA built a hub at CDG to compete with PA's FRA/LHR mini hub

IIRC FRA was PanAms biggest operation outside the US. Far from beeing "mini". I remeber there were at least 3 to 4 747s plus a good number of 727,737 and A300/310 on the groudnin FRA around noon.

It was a constantly changibng story between PA and TW, they had route swaps, for a time TW gave up RA and PA gave up PAR, then TW came back to FRA where they stayed until they finally went down.
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phllax
Posts: 348
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:53 am

RE: Pan Am And TWA Intra-European Service

Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:41 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 9):
I seem to remember that Tel Aviv had a similar routing for a while, but this was switched to TLV-Paris-JFK, and later to TLV-JFK.

The JFK-Paris-TLV flight was Flight 800. The Paris-TLV sector was ultimately dropped for a JFK-TLV non-stop.
 
stirling
Posts: 3897
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 2:00 am

RE: Pan Am And TWA Intra-European Service

Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:55 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 37):
TW gave up RA

What is "RA"?
Delete this User
 
PanHAM
Posts: 8635
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Pan Am And TWA Intra-European Service

Thu Nov 16, 2006 7:15 am

Quoting Stirling (Reply 39):

What is "RA"?

F**K. the is am F missing. FRA of course. or EDDF in ICAO

.
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Tan Flyr
Posts: 1579
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2000 11:07 pm

RE: Pan Am And TWA Intra-European Service

Thu Nov 16, 2006 7:22 am

Quoting Stirling (Reply 39):
What is "RA"?

I think he meant FRA.

My description of FRA as a "mini" hub was in contrast to the ops that PA
had at MIA/JFK/Tokyo in those days.

Also, remember that some of that was loosely tied to the RTW service that TW had in the late 60's /early 70's.. Worked best on WB itins.
 
Cody
Posts: 2175
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 12:16 pm

RE: Pan Am And TWA Intra-European Service

Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:26 am

In the 1960's, TWA established a few Flight Attendant crew bases in Europe. Paris was one of them. Later, they closed the bases and terminated those that were domiciled there. From that point on, TWA crews were temporarily assigned bases in Europe. The flight crew from 847 was MCI based, but were doing temporary duty in Athens. The cabin crew was out of JFK.
 
N905TW
Posts: 34
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2004 1:53 am

RE: Pan Am And TWA Intra-European Service

Mon Nov 20, 2006 9:07 am

Quoting GECMD11 (Reply 36):
Not sure if TW service to SVO ever got off the ground......

TWA service to SVO did in fact begin in spring of 1992. Flight 768, was an L-1011 from JFK to BRU, with a switch of aircraft in BRU to a 727. The return was Flight 769. This service didn't last long however and was gone within a year. Unofficial gossip was that a contract to carry Russian immigrants to the United States fell thru as a result of the Chapter 11 bankruptcy filing earlier that year.

The original plan to replace the European based 727-31s with DC9-30s fell apart in November of 1989. The reason given at the time was that the leasing company did not want the aircraft out of the United States. This was very last minute, and at least one DC9 already had "City of Berlin" titles applied to her.

Unfortunately, this decision also resulted in a pull down of the Berlin mini hub and other intra European routes. The timing was horrible, as not even a week later the Berlin wall fell, and traffic to TXL went through the roof!!

TWA then announced that only the following 727-100 routes would remain:
FRA-IST / FRA-TXL / FRA-VIE / FRA-LHR / AMS-FBU

The 727-200 continued to fly in other markets, such as ATH-FCO.

TWA 727 service in Europe ended in June of 1993, when the final aircraft was returned to the USA. The last routes flown were FCO-ATH, and FCO-CAI. ATH and CAI were upgraded to nonstops from JFK on the following day, using 747 and 767-300 equipment.

727 Flight Deck crews were based at other TWA bases in the USA, (JFK, STL), and would bid an entire month of flying out of certain bases (TXL, FRA, CDG, CAI, FCO). They were put up in a local hotel for the entire month.

The Cabin Attendants usually started out thier trips working JFK-FRA, or JFK-BRU, etc, and then cycled into 2 to 5 days of 727 intra-europe flying.

I sure do miss those days!
 
scalebuilder
Posts: 605
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 10:32 pm

RE: Pan Am And TWA Intra-European Service

Mon Nov 20, 2006 12:28 pm

Quoting N905TW (Reply 43):
I sure do miss those days!

I miss those days too. There was a lot of nostalgia about flying within Europe back in the good old 80s.

Even though I did not fly as much with TWA as I did with Pan Am back then, you deserve to be thanked for a very good and informative post.

Thank you again. This was just awesome!

Sincerely,

Scalebuilder
Go the extra mile......and avoid the traffic!!!

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