lowecur
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STL Made Strategic Mistake With Jblu

Thu Nov 16, 2006 4:39 am

Today STL is kicking itself. With CVG and SLC as possible hub sites for the 190, STL's value just took a hit. They played hardball with JBLU, and it will most likely cost them. I'm sure they will request immediate discussions to see if they can do a deal in the nearterm. Any hesitation will certainly cost them. I believe JBLU will put them on the backburner and let this thing play out. The only chance they have is to put up an offer too good to turn down.

With the 1st salvo fired in the merger wars, consolidation is now on the table. With this proposed merger you can expect at least one other suitor for DL. No one is going to let Doug walk off with this deal for $8B. The next suitor will also need to have the same pedigree as Doug Parker to get any Wall St. Bankers backing. The eventual winner will be hand picked by DL's creditors.

Whoever they are, the selection for a midwest hub just got more interesting.
 
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mariner
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RE: STL Made Strategic Mistake With Jblu

Thu Nov 16, 2006 4:47 am

Quoting Lowecur (Thread starter):
They played hardball with JBLU, and it will most likely cost them.

I'm not clear what STL did that might have cost 'em?

mariner
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lowecur
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RE: STL Made Strategic Mistake With Jblu

Thu Nov 16, 2006 5:02 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 1):
I'm not clear what STL did that might have cost 'em?

In speaking with a JBLU pilot, he said a station mgr was hired but then let go when the deal fell through.

My speculation is that STL wouldn't amend the contract to let JBLU off the hook if either AMR or SWA decided to pull up stakes if it became unprofitable. I believe remaining carriers would be responsible to pay off the airport bonds for existing improvements, and this was the reason JBLU backed off the deal. I think they want a contract with a cap where they won't get stuck for the difference.
 
LambertMan
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RE: STL Made Strategic Mistake With Jblu

Thu Nov 16, 2006 5:10 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 1):
I'm not clear what STL did that might have cost 'em?

mariner

There's speculation (with grounds) that St. Louis sweet talked itself out of a deal with JetBlue for a midwest E90 focus city.

About 3 or 4 months ago a B6 employee made a post suggesting that CMH, SRQ and a STL focus city would be announced. CMH and SRQ did indeed come true, but STL obviously did not. The day before the announcement he said St. Louis talked its way out of it, if I remember right. He did say that good things come to those who wait, whoever and whatever that is referring to I don't know.

With that said, I wasn't completely sold on the idea of B6 having a focus city here anyway. The St. Louis market, in my opinion, has reached saturation. It shows as well, there hasn't been hardly anything added/subtracted in the past year by carrier. American and Southwest, the two carriers that would have interest in adding, appear to have reached a happy medium.
 
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RE: STL Made Strategic Mistake With Jblu

Thu Nov 16, 2006 5:44 am

Quoting Lowecur (Thread starter):
The eventual winner will be hand picked by DL's creditors.

Part of the problem is CVG and SLC might not be available at all. I strongly doubt the DOJ will even consider allowing US and DL to merge, and I think DL's management will try to talk creditors into going with the stand-alone course. Just because US wants DL doesn't mean DL wants US, nor is it necessarily going to happen.
 
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mariner
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RE: STL Made Strategic Mistake With Jblu

Thu Nov 16, 2006 5:44 am

Quoting LambertMan (Reply 3):
With that said, I wasn't completely sold on the idea of B6 having a focus city here anyway.

It puzzled me, too. If nothing else, JetBlue has gone (slightly) out of its way to avoid direct competition with Southwest.

Then again, I don't know how vital it is for Jetblue to have a midwest hub at all. I guess it depends on how they perceive their long-term future.

Quoting LambertMan (Reply 3):
The St. Louis market, in my opinion, has reached saturation.

That may be true.

It may be possible to change that, but it might require a determination by an airline to make it a crossroads, as TWA did.

mariner
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lowecur
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RE: STL Made Strategic Mistake With Jblu

Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:11 am

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 4):
Part of the problem is CVG and SLC might not be available at all. I strongly doubt the DOJ will even consider allowing US and DL to merge, and I think DL's management will try to talk creditors into going with the stand-alone course. Just because US wants DL doesn't mean DL wants US, nor is it necessarily going to happen.

DL doesn't have any say in the matter, this is an offer made directly to the creditors. You actually believe the creditors will go along with Grinstein or his protege' in favor of getting Doug Parker Plus 25% premium value? As for the DOJ? Times have changed since the last UAL/USAirways failed merger attempt. The FAA needs to reduce congestion with a reduction of 50 seat RJs. They will be more than happy to give the DOJ a recommendation provided Doug Parker has submitted a viable plan. My guess is more than 10% of the domestic capacity will end up on the cutting room floor once the final negotiations are in order. I also look for another offer on the table for DL in the coming weeks or months.

[Edited 2006-11-15 22:14:36]
 
stirling
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RE: STL Made Strategic Mistake With Jblu

Thu Nov 16, 2006 7:02 am

If jetBlue needs a mid-continent hub.....we'd love to see them here in Colorado Springs! They wouldn't be stepping on anyone's toes, except those of the ghost of Western Pacific....
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OzarkD9S
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RE: STL Made Strategic Mistake With Jblu

Thu Nov 16, 2006 7:05 am

The big question mark AAs AAlways is AA and would they put up a fight for STL if an LCC came in with a serious plan to hub there?

I have my doubts as whether AA would stand thier ground here (STL). All AA might end up with is DFW, MIA, ORD, LGA, DCA and maybe LAX at the end of the day. Most of the other AA flights are AAConnection anyway.
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mrstl
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RE: STL Made Strategic Mistake With Jblu

Thu Nov 16, 2006 7:23 am

Would love to see B6 here, I'll wait to see where the chips land.

On an AA STL sidenote-- AA adds a 10th RT to DFW in January and goes to five RT's/day to DAL -- 3xMD80 and 2XERJ.

STL has not reached saturation as traffic, particularly O&D, continues to grow.

IIRC Neeleman alluded to possibly holding off on a midwest focus city on the last earnings conference call-- instead choosing to focus on current focus cities such as Boston.
 
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mariner
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RE: STL Made Strategic Mistake With Jblu

Thu Nov 16, 2006 7:23 am

Quoting Lowecur (Reply 6):
You actually believe the creditors will go along with Grinstein or his protege' in favor of getting Doug Parker Plus 25% premium value? As for the DOJ? Times have changed since the last UAL/USAirways failed merger attempt.

I am sure you are right, but I wold not underestimate how hard Mr. Grinstein - who sitll has powerful allies - will fight.

Mr. Parker may have staked his claim as the Young Lion taking over the pride, but the Old Lion isn't going to go quietly.

It will be interesting to watch.  Smile

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OMA2FAI2SAV
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RE: STL Made Strategic Mistake With Jblu

Thu Nov 16, 2006 8:06 am

No, B6 decided to forget about STL as a focus city, and move the focus to PIA as a focus city. LOL. In all seriousness, I would like to see a focus city in STL. That might mean B6 will open up OMA with the E190 from STL.
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JetBlueGuy2006
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RE: STL Made Strategic Mistake With Jblu

Thu Nov 16, 2006 8:22 am

I hope STL tries to do something to mend the fences. They could have an E-190 focus city to Midwestern destinations as well as having a couple 320's to NYC to connect nationwide.

I would love to see them make that commitment so we can finally get B6 in Michigan!

edit: spelling
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supa7E7
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RE: STL Made Strategic Mistake With Jblu

Thu Nov 16, 2006 8:30 am

Even if US and DL merge, they would still keep 100 daily flights at SLC and CVG. Just as defensive, profitable, O&D installations.

Sure, shrink, but why pull out profitable flying? They wouldn't.
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lowecur
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RE: STL Made Strategic Mistake With Jblu

Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:34 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 10):
am sure you are right, but I wold not underestimate how hard Mr. Grinstein - who sitll has powerful allies - will fight.

Mr. Parker may have staked his claim as the Young Lion taking over the pride, but the Old Lion isn't going to go quietly.

It will be interesting to watch.

I personally think Grinstein has known about this for a longtime. He is a Wall St insider who has many friends that I'm sure tipped him months ago. In fact it wouldn't surprise me if he approved of the move, but chose to keep his mouth shut to keep the BK process going smoothly. Nothing is worse than bringing this type of thing up to the troops while trying to emerge from BK.
 
stlgph
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RE: STL Made Strategic Mistake With Jblu

Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:06 pm

St. Louis isn't interested in a JetBlue hub. St. Louis isn't even really interested in service by JetBlue.

Why?

* American Airlines

-- despite cuts in service reductions, AA still remains a big player and employer here in the city.

-- Trans States is a St. Louis based regional airline hiring and employing a great deal of St. Louis residents. Trans States is still very dependant upon AA for its continued existance.

-- there is continued faith that AA will continue to add flights to the schedule and resume services in the future as the needs warrant


* Southwest Airlines

-- for the help in breaking down the Wright Amendment, Southwest was promised more traffic coming through STL and an increase of flights. of course any of this has yet to happen, but they are still believing that Southwest will come through with their promise of the bargain.
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propilotjw
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RE: STL Made Strategic Mistake With Jblu

Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:17 pm

Quoting Lowecur (Reply 2):
In speaking with a JBLU pilot, he said a station mgr was hired but then let go when the deal fell through.

That pilot was wrong.
 
atrude777
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RE: STL Made Strategic Mistake With Jblu

Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:37 pm

Quoting STLGph (Reply 15):
* Southwest Airlines

-- for the help in breaking down the Wright Amendment, Southwest was promised more traffic coming through STL and an increase of flights. of course any of this has yet to happen, but they are still believing that Southwest will come through with their promise of the bargain.

There HAS been an increase of more traffic in regards to passengers, SWA is sending alot of folks through STL for connecting which brings in more money.

As for Traffic, right now SWA is maxxed out at STL. they are only using 7 gates, and are maxed out at 70 flights a day. SWA cannot add another flight unless they add another jetbridge which we are hoping they will do soon.

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
CIDFlyer
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RE: STL Made Strategic Mistake With Jblu

Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:42 pm

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 17):
There HAS been an increase of more traffic in regards to passengers, SWA is sending alot of folks through STL for connecting which brings in more money.

does anyone know if AA has seen an increase in DAL passengers routing thru STL as well?
 
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mariner
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RE: STL Made Strategic Mistake With Jblu

Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:46 pm

Quoting Lowecur (Reply 14):
I personally think Grinstein has known about this for a longtime.

Sure. Provably, he's known about it since Mr. Parker's original phone call last spring.

And if he had answered Mr. Parker's October letter, he might be in a stronger position now, to at least have some control over the events. By ignoring it, he has allowed Mr. Parker to go straight to the creditors.

But I fear we are hijacking this thread. Sorry, everyone.

 Smile

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stl1326
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RE: STL Made Strategic Mistake With Jblu

Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:53 pm

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 17):
SWA cannot add another flight unless they add another jetbridge which we are hoping they will do soon.

Yes, they can. The only gate in Southwest's Terminal that doesn't have a jetbridge is gate E2. They may be only using 7 gates but they still have 4 gates unused...
 
BHMNONREV
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RE: STL Made Strategic Mistake With Jblu

Thu Nov 16, 2006 12:57 pm

Quoting STLGph (Reply 15):
St. Louis isn't interested in a JetBlue hub. St. Louis isn't even really interested in service by JetBlue.

Why?

* American Airlines

-- despite cuts in service reductions, AA still remains a big player and employer here in the city.

-- Trans States is a St. Louis based regional airline hiring and employing a great deal of St. Louis residents. Trans States is still very dependant upon AA for its continued existance.

-- there is continued faith that AA will continue to add flights to the schedule and resume services in the future as the needs warrant


* Southwest Airlines

-- for the help in breaking down the Wright Amendment, Southwest was promised more traffic coming through STL and an increase of flights. of course any of this has yet to happen, but they are still believing that Southwest will come through with their promise of the bargain.

I think these are very valid reasons, and I think right now Dolliole would rather have the sure thing with the status quo (AA/WN), than risk alienating them to accommodate B6 by rolling out the red carpet.

However, I'm sure that if JetBlue wanted to start up shop in STL he would welcome them with several flights a day to JFK/BOS/LGB/OAK. But a sweetheart deal leaving them off the hook if they pull out? Sorry Neeleman, take it elsewhere.

In an earlier post LambertMan stated that the STL market was saturated, however IMHO I would like to think that service to STL right now is right-sized, rather than saturated. However, with some competitive growth I believe the market could support another 10-15 daily flights. Sounds just about right for a small E-190 operation if you ask me, and Concourse B is just sitting there, waiting to be taken...  stirthepot 
 
atrude777
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RE: STL Made Strategic Mistake With Jblu

Thu Nov 16, 2006 1:03 pm

Quoting Stl1326 (Reply 20):
Yes, they can. The only gate in Southwest's Terminal that doesn't have a jetbridge is gate E2. They may be only using 7 gates but they still have 4 gates unused...

E-2, as well as E-22, 24 do not have jetbridges or blocked in to where SWA cannot access a gate.

E-4 and E-6 got their gates from E-22 and E-24.

E-20 is the only gate not being used and I think it was blocked in when I saw it last time.

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
stlgph
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RE: STL Made Strategic Mistake With Jblu

Thu Nov 16, 2006 1:46 pm

Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 21):

I think Concourse B is on its way out the door...eventually. If the airport gets serious about terminal redevelopment, tearing B down first and starting here would be the ideal plan.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
WesternA318
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RE: STL Made Strategic Mistake With Jblu

Thu Nov 16, 2006 1:54 pm

Quoting STLGph (Reply 15):
St. Louis isn't interested in a JetBlue hub. St. Louis isn't even really interested in service by JetBlue.



Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 21):
But a sweetheart deal leaving them off the hook if they pull out? Sorry Neeleman, take it elsewhere.

Amen to that!! Finally an airport that doesnt take the BS B6 spits out...
Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
 
BHMNONREV
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RE: STL Made Strategic Mistake With Jblu

Thu Nov 16, 2006 2:00 pm

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 22):
Quoting Stl1326 (Reply 20):
Yes, they can. The only gate in Southwest's Terminal that doesn't have a jetbridge is gate E2. They may be only using 7 gates but they still have 4 gates unused...

E-2, as well as E-22, 24 do not have jetbridges or blocked in to where SWA cannot access a gate.

E-4 and E-6 got their gates from E-22 and E-24.

E-20 is the only gate not being used and I think it was blocked in when I saw it last time.

So what has Southwest done with all of the jetbridges? This Google Earth photo shows everyone of the 12 gates intact, even the one at E-2. Now I understand this is a dated photo, but where would they have gone? Were they sold, disposed of, what....

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h301/Bloozramz/STL-E.jpg
 
WesternA318
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RE: STL Made Strategic Mistake With Jblu

Thu Nov 16, 2006 2:03 pm

Whose 727-200 is that?
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atrude777
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RE: STL Made Strategic Mistake With Jblu

Thu Nov 16, 2006 2:12 pm

Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 25):
So what has Southwest done with all of the jetbridges? This Google Earth photo shows everyone of the 12 gates intact, even the one at E-2. Now I understand this is a dated photo, but where would they have gone? Were they sold, disposed of, what....

As far as I can recall, E-2 never had a jetbridge, it is completely shut and stuff is blocking it minus the picture showing it of course.

E-4 was missing one too, they were removed. Then When I flew out in the spring of 06, E-22 and E-24 were missing jetbridges and I realized they changed them to E-4 and E-6 because E-6 was missing a bridge too for a long time.

Now, E-20 is blocked off, and 22 and 24 do not have any jetbridges.

So, E-4 through E-18 are 8 gates and 70 daily flights are being used, with 7 jetbridges.

Not sure where they went but I know some are missing.

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
BHMNONREV
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RE: STL Made Strategic Mistake With Jblu

Thu Nov 16, 2006 2:19 pm

Quoting STLGph (Reply 23):
I think Concourse B is on its way out the door...eventually. If the airport gets serious about terminal redevelopment, tearing B down first and starting here would be the ideal plan.

As much as I would like to see A and B torn down to start some terminal redevelopment, B will currently be the key in getting any new service started. It has the capability to have 6-8 jetways installed for a small focus operation, say either B6 or a combined DL/US operation.

Until Kevin gets his new piece of concrete paid for, the terminal will have to make do as is...
 
atrude777
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RE: STL Made Strategic Mistake With Jblu

Thu Nov 16, 2006 2:23 pm

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 26):
Whose 727-200 is that?

Should be Champion Air.

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
LambertMan
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RE: STL Made Strategic Mistake With Jblu

Fri Nov 17, 2006 2:04 pm

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 27):
As far as I can recall, E-2 never had a jetbridge, it is completely shut and stuff is blocking it minus the picture showing it of course.

E-2 had a jetbridge for about the first 5 or 6 years of east terminal use. We actually dropped my dad off at E-2 when he went to Florida back in the late 90's.

This was at the same time that Southwest was billing St. Louis as one of its premier destinations. Then about a year or so later things all started going downhill with WN and we just now re-emerged from Southwest's "dog house".
 
stlgph
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RE: STL Made Strategic Mistake With Jblu

Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:02 pm

Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 28):
As much as I would like to see A and B torn down to start some terminal redevelopment, B will currently be the key in getting any new service started. It has the capability to have 6-8 jetways installed for a small focus operation, say either B6 or a combined DL/US operation.

B Concourse is too awkward in design and shape and addition of jet bridges would block needed tarmac space.

Ideally a future St. Louis Airport terminal will sit in two separate terminal buildings with one concourse extending west over where A sits now and probably even incorporating the current A and one concourse extended east over where C sits now and possibly incorporating even part of the existing C concourse. the East Terminal will remain as is but as a separate building.

Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 25):
Were they sold, disposed of, what....

Replacement for other jet bridges at the airport.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
BHMNONREV
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RE: STL Made Strategic Mistake With Jblu

Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:04 pm

Quoting LambertMan (Reply 30):
we just now re-emerged from Southwest's "dog house".

Amazing what getting the Wright perimeter extended can do for that "dog housitis"... Big grin
 
stlgph
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RE: STL Made Strategic Mistake With Jblu

Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:08 pm

Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 32):

Amazing what getting the Wright perimeter extended can do for that "dog housitis"... Big grin

Wow, two new flights per day. I'm almost beside myself.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
atrude777
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RE: STL Made Strategic Mistake With Jblu

Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:16 pm

Quoting STLGph (Reply 33):

Wow, two new flights per day. I'm almost beside myself.

You sure really have a thorn against SWA, you down every statement SWA makes about STL, claims its all "smokescreen" and such.

It is getting very tiring, you also have to realize, WN also is connecting MORE passengers through STL, bringing more people through STL, means more money to be spent at the airport.

Yes, right now WN also added only 2 more daily flights, but now look, we have 8 daily non stops to STL on SWA, 5 on AA to DAL and 12 to DFW, thats a combined 25 daily flights to the Dallas Market. If it wasn't for the Wright Amendment and such, we wouldn't be seeing this new market and range of flights.

Anything an airline does to STL is a good thing in regards to addition even if it means "two tiny flights" to DAL. But look at the bigger picture of it, we went from 4 daily flights to doubling to now 8 daily within a year thats pretty good.

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
bdl2stl2pvg
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RE: STL Made Strategic Mistake With Jblu

Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:33 pm

Quoting STLGph (Reply 31):
B Concourse is too awkward in design and shape and addition of jet bridges would block needed tarmac space

At the end of TW's days, there were still 3 jetbridges on the East side of Concourse B. IIRC, well prior to that there were approximately 9 jetbridges total. I know that 4 bridges could be added to the North side of the concourse, the "top of the Y", if you will easily. In addition, 1 or 2 could be added on the West side. Concourse B should have the potential to have 8 - 9 gates. Of course a lot of the ramp space used by the Connection a/c would be lost, but I do keep hearing that they will move to the end of C anyways.

Net/Net, STL could host a focus operation in B if need be.

I am still unclear what they did or didn't do to Strategically blow it with JetBlue
 
BHMNONREV
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RE: STL Made Strategic Mistake With Jblu

Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:35 pm

Quoting STLGph (Reply 31):
Ideally a future St. Louis Airport terminal will sit in two separate terminal buildings with one concourse extending west over where A sits now and probably even incorporating the current A and one concourse extended east over where C sits now and possibly incorporating even part of the existing C concourse. the East Terminal will remain as is but as a separate building.

I agree, and being here in the desert I have a lot of idle time and pardon my very crude photoshop skills I came up with something I remember seeing several years ago and I tried to reproduce it as well as I can remember. And please keep in mind that this is not to any sort of scale..


http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h301/Bloozramz/STL.jpg


This would incorporate part of the existing main terminal as the linear concourse and the new terminal would be where the current parking garage sits. Of course this is all contingent upon the MOANG leaving as per the most recent BRAC.

Any thoughts?
 
stlgph
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RE: STL Made Strategic Mistake With Jblu

Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:48 pm

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 34):

read the Southwest schedule. unless people enjoy 2 or 3 hour layovers they aren't doing much connecting.

Dallas "gains" the two flights while Houston (in addition to other cities...see below) has been cut back. Houston used to be 8 per day. now it is down to 5.

also, as mentioned in another thread, Phoenix has been reduced one daily flight.

Little Rock is also down to two flights per day, from three.

Tulsa and Oklahoma City are also down to two flights per day. at one point, they were three daily.

overall, in doing the math, Southwest has not added any additional flight numbers to the airport.

Quoting BDL2STL2PVG (Reply 35):

jet bridges on the north side of the B concourse would be a pain for taxi traffic.

Delta has been using the tarmac between A and B for aircraft parking and would like to be able to maintain that space. not to mention the cost of restructing the walls on the west side wouldn't even be worth it. easier just to tear it down.


the only airline that stands to benefit with doing anything in the B concourse is Frontier, but since they only have four flights here (roughly) per day...it's not worth it for them at this time unless they decide something drastic and otherwise.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
atrude777
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RE: STL Made Strategic Mistake With Jblu

Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:24 pm

Quoting STLGph (Reply 37):

overall, in doing the math, Southwest has not added any additional flight numbers to the airport.

I did the math, using the May schedule they released we have 71 daily flights, to 22 cities non stop. we currently have 70, so really we still have gained an extra flight.

May Sked-
ABQ-1
BHM-1
BWI-4
CLE-2
CMH-1
DAL-8
DTW-3
FLL-1
HOU-5
LAS-2
LAX-1
LIT-2
MCI-6
MCO-4
MDW-11
OKC-2
OMA-3
PHX-5
SDF-3
SLC-2
TPA-2
TUL-2

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
mrstl
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RE: STL Made Strategic Mistake With Jblu

Fri Nov 17, 2006 10:31 pm

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 38):
I did the math, using the May schedule they released we have 71 daily flights, to 22 cities non stop. we currently have 70, so really we still have gained an extra flight.



We were at 64 flights a year ago so we have increased 10% in the last year-- Not bad at all. Granted I don't think it has been a windfall of new flights as the net gain has been all to DAL.
 
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RE: STL Made Strategic Mistake With Jblu

Sat Nov 18, 2006 12:26 am

Quoting STLGph (Reply 23):
I think Concourse B is on its way out the door...eventually.

This is not even a thought currently.

Quoting BHMNONREV (Reply 25):
So what has Southwest done with all of the jetbridges?

The ones that were on E2 and E4 were taken off the airfield to another airport SWA serves. Northeast somewhere IIRC. The one that is now on E4 came from E22 I believe.

Quoting STLGph (Reply 31):
B Concourse is too awkward in design and shape and addition of jet bridges would block needed tarmac space.

As others have stated, Bridges have been there in the past, and although a little crowded, it worked fine.

Quoting STLGph (Reply 37):
jet bridges on the north side of the B concourse would be a pain for taxi traffic.

Not really. No more so than the room they have on the north side of A and C concourses.

On a side note, I do know that we are still talking to JetBlue, but I have no clue on what the status is. There are also plans to have talks with Air Tran early next year.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
mrstl
Posts: 353
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 9:58 am

RE: STL Made Strategic Mistake With Jblu

Sat Nov 18, 2006 1:02 am

Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 40):
On a side note, I do know that we are still talking to JetBlue, but I have no clue on what the status is. There are also plans to have talks with Air Tran early next year.

Frontier/Airtran combo focus city in STL is an intriguing idea, likely, well who knows. They have a new frequent flier agreement.

How's the customs renovation in E coming along? Has the storm ravaged D been repaired yet?


As far as expansion from AA-- I would not expect it anytime soon. My observation is AA will hold the line on new growth until after second quarter 2008, sadly this will coincide with 4000+? TWA/AA flight attendents falling off the furlough list. B6 would hit a wealth of experienced/first class work force if they should decide to open/hire from STL.
 
stlgph
Posts: 8986
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: STL Made Strategic Mistake With Jblu

Sat Nov 18, 2006 1:35 am

Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 40):
Quoting STLGph (Reply 23):
I think Concourse B is on its way out the door...eventually.

This is not even a thought currently.

Yes it is.

Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 40):
Quoting STLGph (Reply 31):
B Concourse is too awkward in design and shape and addition of jet bridges would block needed tarmac space.

As others have stated, Bridges have been there in the past, and although a little crowded, it worked fine.

I'm talking about the west side.

Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 40):
Quoting STLGph (Reply 37):
jet bridges on the north side of the B concourse would be a pain for taxi traffic.

Not really. No more so than the room they have on the north side of A and C concourses.

Yes really. Southwest, American, USA 3000, Frontier, Champion want the path to the west side of the field wide open so they don't have to stop and start and can save on fuel use.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: STL Made Strategic Mistake With Jblu

Sat Nov 18, 2006 1:51 am

Quoting STLGph (Reply 42):
I think Concourse B is on its way out the door...eventually.

This is not even a thought currently.

Yes it is.

So is building a new terminal on the west side of the field, but as of right now, it ain't gonna happen. Same with B concourse demolition.

B is extremely attractive for a small hub as you can walk to and from the farthest gates in literally under one minute.

Quoting STLGph (Reply 42):
Yes really. Southwest, American, USA 3000, Frontier, Champion want the path to the west side of the field wide open so they don't have to stop and start and can save on fuel use.

It's extremely rare that the fore mentioned airlines, even AA, use Taxilane Charlie for transitioning from point to point so it is a bit of a mute point.

Regards
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
bdl2stl2pvg
Posts: 99
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RE: STL Made Strategic Mistake With Jblu

Sat Nov 18, 2006 2:05 am

The fact is that if another carrier wanted to establish a focus city in STL then Lambert, in its current form, could offer the option of a Y shaped B concourse or several gates in a linear D concourse as an option. The carrier could then decide. If the numbers were so much lower for D then that could sway them although operating out of a Y (or T) shaped concourse would probably be preferable. STL actually has two good options available now, and my point is that B concourse could indeed be made to work. It is possible. The north side would have enough space so that that current taxiway would not be intruded upon if parking A-320 or 717 a/c on the north end. In fact, I think that the jetbridges would not be perpendicular to the north end thus allowing ample taxi room (parking at a 45 degree angle, a la the end AA's concourse K at ORD).

I do realize that the West side of B essentially lost at least the equivalent of one gate when the new tower building was built in the 90s.
 
FlyBoy84
Posts: 329
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RE: STL Made Strategic Mistake With Jblu

Sat Nov 18, 2006 6:27 am

WOW...BMHNONREV!

Apparently we're on the same wavelength since that is the route that I thought STL should take for some kind of redevelopment! It would create all kinds of space for taxiing in both directions!

Now taking that and the renderings I saw in an official report by the airport, a smaller version of that for UA/US/DL/CO/NW/F9 could be combined with a midfield terminal with underground pax access for use by AA or B6 or whosoever will! A/B/C/D would be history. Later, the East Terminal could be torn down and a second terminal with additional gates could be added to the linear building for WN/U5/Champion.

Of course, THAT will NEVER happen!

And yes, I'd like to see B6 here, but the reasons for STL appearing to shoot the other foot seem quite reasonable from a business standpoint. I mean, I don't think it would be wise to risk losing any of what we have just to get what will amount to a little service from another carrier.

Even if B6 came here, I don't see STL getting a whole lot of service to a whole lot of places. In the end, I think we'd all be clamoring for the RJs...and the cattle call boarding.

As far as the deal being blown because of the cost of doing business at STL with its new runway, airports (like airlines) are in the business of making money to keep the operation alive. If they think that B6 coming to town might affect service by AA or WN then POWER TO 'EM!
 
stlgph
Posts: 8986
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: STL Made Strategic Mistake With Jblu

Sat Nov 18, 2006 6:27 am

Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 43):

So is building a new terminal on the west side of the field, but as of right now, it ain't gonna happen. Same with B concourse demolition.

B is extremely attractive for a small hub as you can walk to and from the farthest gates in literally under one minute.

here, have some.



Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 43):
It's extremely rare that the fore mentioned airlines, even AA, use Taxilane Charlie for transitioning from point to point so it is a bit of a mute point.

moot.

and looked like they were making good use of it two weeks ago when I was at the airport.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
Boeing Nut
Posts: 5078
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2001 2:42 am

RE: STL Made Strategic Mistake With Jblu

Sat Nov 18, 2006 7:07 am

Quoting STLGph (Reply 46):
looked like they were making good use of it two weeks ago when I was at the airport.

Well sure it's getting used, but mainly for push backs. Using Charlie for full length or not so full length is what is rare. Sorry if I came across as being a smart a$$, didn't mean it that way.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
J32driver
Posts: 385
Joined: Fri May 05, 2000 2:55 am

RE: STL Made Strategic Mistake With Jblu

Sat Nov 18, 2006 10:01 am

Watching this thread from the viewpoint of someone who operated aircraft out of STL (B concourse specifically) for a couple of years, its pretty easy to see who is knowledgable and who is just publishing their own private pipe dreams. I declare Boeing Nut as very "in the know" and STLGph as someone who stand in a concourse and watches an operation, but doesn't really know how things work.

Anyone who's looking to build there personal knowledge would do well to listen to Boeing Nut. He's about the only person on this thread making any sense. Well... him and Lowecure.
 
BHMNONREV
Posts: 1209
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 9:17 am

RE: STL Made Strategic Mistake With Jblu

Sat Nov 18, 2006 12:31 pm

Quoting FlyBoy84 (Reply 45):
Now taking that and the renderings I saw in an official report by the airport, a smaller version of that for UA/US/DL/CO/NW/F9 could be combined with a midfield terminal with underground pax access for use by AA or B6 or whosoever will! A/B/C/D would be history. Later, the East Terminal could be torn down and a second terminal with additional gates could be added to the linear building for WN/U5/Champion.

Greetings my friend! Have not seen you around here very much recently..

I was not trying to hijack the thread but when the Lambert expansion/renovation topic came out I figured I would throw this design in there in relation to the B6 to STL discussion. My guess is I will be long gone from this earth before I ever see any major airport terminal construction at the place where I spent many days of my youth.  weeping 

But I am still convinced that to lure any new carriers to the STL market a renovated Concourse "B" is the key in making this happen, because let's face it, "D" should stand for the "D"ead concourse. As Boeing Nut stated, "B" has the closest walk from check-in to gate and from gate to baggage claim and would be ideal for B6 and/or FL. I believe this is one area where big returns can be had from just a little investment. However, if Dolliole is not looking for any new service at Lambert, then by all means tear it down, because it serves no purpose sitting empty...

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