bahadir
Posts: 1281
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2001 4:57 pm

Ignorant Pilots...

Fri Nov 17, 2006 11:24 am

I am not trying to create a major argument here but i recently went through a training of a regional airline. What suprised me was the number of pilots (mid 20s) that couldn't tell the difference between an A320 and B767. (I am not kidding you).. I asked them why they got into aviation and their response was "I want to work for Southwest and make $150/hr".. I find it amazing that almost none of them was knowledgable enough about aircraft types, aviation history, etc..

Now, you may say 'what's the big deal?" but this airline serves world's busiest airports like SFO, ORD, LAX.. what do you think will happen when ground controller says ' follow that American MD80"?????

Cheers..
Earthbound misfit I
 
ABQopsHP
Posts: 461
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RE: Ignorant Pilots...

Fri Nov 17, 2006 11:38 am

Dude! I can relate. I had coworkers that cant tell the difference. I just wanted to kick them off the ramp. Its scary.  Wink
A line is evidence that other people exist.
 
Cessna057
Posts: 417
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RE: Ignorant Pilots...

Fri Nov 17, 2006 11:42 am

Its not that big of a deal...My private pilot instructor couldnt tell many of the Boeings appart. I was shocked when i jumped on a plane with him and looked out the window and i was like "Look at that T7" "..........whats a T7?"
Hold it . . . Hold it . . . HOLD THE FREAKIN NOSE UP!!
 
saab2000
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RE: Ignorant Pilots...

Fri Nov 17, 2006 11:43 am

I would have to agree with you on that one. The title of your thread got me going, but you are actually quite right. Also, the ignorance of international aviation is astonishing too.

But for every RJ 'super pilot' who walks around in a leather jacket and shades in the terminal with the brand new, scratch-free flight case and 'Purdy Neat Things' bag, there are dozens who DO know what is going on.

But the funniest thing I think is when a 700 hour RJ dude talks about how unsafe an Airbus is and how he would much rather fly a Boeing because he doesn't want to give up control "to a bunch of French engineers"......... Just gotta laugh at the ignorance. But it is scary.
smrtrthnu
 
P3Orion
Posts: 376
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RE: Ignorant Pilots...

Fri Nov 17, 2006 11:49 am

Along similar lines, when I worked at ASH ATCT, A CFII came up to the tower, with her student, for a tour. As the introductions were being made, I said I was working Ground Control. The CFII looked at me with a puzzled look and said " That can't be, Ground Control is provided, as a service, by the FBO."
I will have a Manhattan.
 
futurecaptain
Posts: 1918
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RE: Ignorant Pilots...

Fri Nov 17, 2006 12:05 pm

Yes, there are pilots out there who appear to have a limited knowledge of aircraft they dont fly and processes they dont understand.

But, for every ignorant pilot out there there are 50 more who do know what's up.
AirSO. ASpaceO. ASOnline. ASO.com ASO. ASO. ASO. ASO. ASO.
 
NYCA330
Posts: 117
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RE: Ignorant Pilots...

Fri Nov 17, 2006 12:18 pm

Listening to ground ATC (eg JFK) many of the instructions are of the nature "follow the a320", or "get behind the RJ" etc. it seems like a knowledge of aircraft types would be important for a pilot in these circumstances. God forbid they should follow the wrong plane!!
 
AirTranTUS
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RE: Ignorant Pilots...

Fri Nov 17, 2006 12:34 pm

I was wondering this the other day for the reasons listed. At busy airports like JFK, you have to know the different types because they tell you to follow an A320, 747, etc.

If a low time pilot doesn't know what kind of plane they are to hold for, follow, etc., do they refer to it as "the other plane"? You have to know something about other planes or you risk sounding ignorant. You'd think since they want to be a pilot, they would have enough interest in aviation to look at all the airplanes out there like some of us do for way to long every day.
I love ASO!
 
FlyHoss
Posts: 534
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RE: Ignorant Pilots...

Fri Nov 17, 2006 12:35 pm

Quoting NYCA330 (Reply 7):
Listening to ground ATC (eg JFK) many of the instructions are of the nature "follow the a320", or "get behind the RJ" etc. it seems like a knowledge of aircraft types would be important for a pilot in these circumstances. God forbid they should follow the wrong plane!!

An excellent point that's even more important in the air when cleared to follow a certain type (after reporting it in sight) on a visual approach. Just a few years ago, while on a visual approach to AUS, a 737 reported us (another 737) in sight, but it became apparent moments later that they had instead sighted (and now were following for the visual to 17R) a MD 80.

While no one is perfect, it's important to be able to distinguish amongst aircraft types. However, it can be very difficult, at a distance, to differentiate between a US A321 and a US B757, for example.

It can also be quite useful to recognize types by their lighting configurations at night.
A little bit louder now, a lil bit louder now...
 
Fly2HMO
Posts: 7207
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RE: Ignorant Pilots...

Fri Nov 17, 2006 12:35 pm

Seen a lot of that too. It's a huge pet peeve for me, specially if its coming from a fellow pilot. I think it's a pretty decent problem to be a concern. Suppose a slightly less obvious (to the average human being that is) differentiation is needed. Say ground tells plane x to follow an HP 737, and nearby that HP 737 there's an HP A320, both in the same colors. I would feel pretty uncomfortable if my captain could not tell the difference between an A320 and a 737, and I'd straight up call him a douchebag.

I'm really, really good at indentifying planes so its not an issue for me. All my buddies can at least tell the difference between a 757 and a 737. But I've come across some guys that can't tell the difference between an CRJ and a MD-80 or a 777 or a 737! Those guys should have no business in the aviation business.
 
kiwiinoz
Posts: 1999
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RE: Ignorant Pilots...

Fri Nov 17, 2006 12:37 pm

Friend of mine is FO with Qantas and his aircraft recognition is pretty average. He said to me that he is not, and never has been an aviation enthusiast, therefore it's a lack of interest

Still, I would have thought that in his line of work he would eventually pick up a thing or two!
 
emiratesa345
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RE: Ignorant Pilots...

Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:05 pm

The ignorant ones are those who would call a captain or any flight crew member a "douchebag" or something of the like.

To question safety based on a pilot's ability to differntiate aircraft is absolutely ridiculous.

As stated above, some pilots just don't have the interest in aviation as some of us here do. They join the army where they take up flying because it might be "cool" or whatever the case may be, and then once they leave they decide they might fly for the airlines, as that is what the majority of their training involved while serving.

I work for a transit system. I also happen to have an interest in buses and I can tell you that I am part of a small minority that can differentiate a Nova LFS from a New Flyer D40LFR. To them, a bus is a bus is a bus, just as to some pilots a plane is a plane is a plane.

Mark
You and I were meant to fly, Air Canada!
 
flyabunch
Posts: 443
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RE: Ignorant Pilots...

Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:06 pm

A few months ago I was standing in the gate area for US in PHX. I was scheduled on a A320. As I stood there next to the flight crew, I noticed that an A319 was pulling in to the gate. I turned and said to the gate agent "has this flight been changed to a 319?" He looked it up and said yes.

The FO then turned to me and said "how did you know that the plane was a 319 so quickly? I said it only had one over wing exit. He replied, I didn't even know that. The pilot gave him a hell of a time after that.

Mike
 
Fly2HMO
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RE: Ignorant Pilots...

Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:22 pm

Quoting EmiratesA345 (Reply 12):
To them, a bus is a bus is a bus, just as to some pilots a plane is a plane is a plane.

Point taken. Yet...

I don't see how somebody could be a pilot "just because" they wanted to, and have barely any interest other than the $$$. It's with those pilots I have problems with.

Fortunately, they are the minority, and most of them, even the ones that aren't as nerdy, are good at identifying airplanes.
 
Curmudgeon
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RE: Ignorant Pilots...

Fri Nov 17, 2006 1:25 pm

Quoting KiwiinOz (Reply 11):
Still, I would have thought that in his line of work he would eventually pick up a thing or two!

Oh, he will. The bar tab after embarassing someone with his lack of nous.
To be fair though, no one is ever going to ask a QF pilot to visually identify and follow anything, so maybe it doesn't matter.

Quoting EmiratesA345 (Reply 12):
The ignorant ones are those who would call a captain or any flight crew member a "douchebag" or something of the like.

That's so true. The approved term is "Asshole"
Jets are for kids
 
APFPilot1985
Posts: 1840
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RE: Ignorant Pilots...

Fri Nov 17, 2006 2:04 pm

What a lot of people don't realize is that for a lot of people flying is little more than a job, no different to them than if they were to punch a clock at an office everyday.
Stand Up and Be Counted Visit Site Related to Voice your opinion
 
Silver1SWA
Crew
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RE: Ignorant Pilots...

Fri Nov 17, 2006 3:06 pm

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 16):
What a lot of people don't realize is that for a lot of people flying is little more than a job, no different to them than if they were to punch a clock at an office everyday.

And I find that to be so strange! Becoming an airline pilots (civilian route) takes a lot of time, money and dedication. That's a lot of effort for "just a job".

Many of us would kill to have an office at 30,000+ feet but are struggling to make that a reality.

About the whole aircraft recognition from ATC instructions thing... I love aviation, but I don't know every type of GA aircraft. That has never really become an issue for me during my training. After I receive an instruction, as long as I follow the rest of the instructions (example, where to look) I have a pretty good idea who they are referring to. The same goes on the ramp at SAN. Captain will often say what I should be looking for and that we are clear to push once they clear behind us. While I know the airliners types, most rampers generally do not. However, they know based on the rest of the instruction, that there is a plane about to pass, and that we are clear after them.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
KingAirMan
Posts: 233
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2006 8:33 am

RE: Ignorant Pilots...

Fri Nov 17, 2006 3:12 pm

Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 10):
I'd straight up call him a douchebag.

I would love to hear what happends when you call your captain that. Also, as a student at embry-riddle I would imagine you would have a little more respect for your fellow crew members. But then again, riddle guys to get a little over their heads. .
 
SonOfACaptain
Posts: 1695
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RE: Ignorant Pilots...

Fri Nov 17, 2006 3:52 pm

Quoting Flyabunch (Reply 13):
The pilot gave him a hell of a time after that.

A F/O isn't a pilot?  wink 

-SOAC
Non Illegitimi Carborundum
 
FlyUSCG
Posts: 520
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 5:29 pm

RE: Ignorant Pilots...

Fri Nov 17, 2006 4:46 pm

Quoting KingAirMan (Reply 18):
But then again, riddle guys to get a little over their heads. .

Hey, he doesn't speak for all of us (and I know this kid too). By the way, I just made a T/O in Carlsbad tonight with an RVR of 800 and skies obscured at 001. It was basically an instrument T/O and it was insane! Tower: "Seminole 575ER, winds xxx at x, tower has no visual contact, clear for T/O rwy XX" HA!
Go Trojans! Fight On!
 
113312
Posts: 580
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2005 9:09 am

RE: Ignorant Pilots...

Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:45 pm

It is a sad comment just how many "airline pilots" don't know and do not care about the history of aviation, the airlines and the planes that are around and have come before. People like us, enthusiasts, are considered geeks and weirdos. So be it. I've been watching planes since I was three years old.

What is truly sad is that many in the FAA and NTSB don't know too much either. I attended a hearing regarding a major accident and the NTSB folks didn't know the difference between a MD-11, DC10-10 or a DC10-30. They couldn't even understand why some had center landing gear and why. Give me a break! And these folks are going to make a technical determination investigating an accident and flight operations?
 
jycarlisle
Posts: 242
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 3:10 am

RE: Ignorant Pilots...

Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:51 pm

Quoting Bahadir (Thread starter):
I am not trying to create a major argument here

Hey ... this is Anet afterall..  Wink

Quoting Bahadir (Thread starter):
"I want to work for Southwest and make $150/hr"

Even though people like that piss me off sometimes, (I deal with these people at my own workplace), they are only in it for the money and couldn't give a pig's butt about anything else. Luckily, we are the fortunate ones and have a certain passion for aviation and are knowledgeable in many areas which is a good thing. (Especially when a captain knows what the different types of aircraft are ... which could save about 1 - 500 lives, if not more, given a dangerous situation.)

Cheers,
Jeremy
"CHANGE IS: CLEAN PLANES AND DIRTY MARTINIS" (DL)
 
Ryanair!!!
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RE: Ignorant Pilots...

Fri Nov 17, 2006 6:08 pm

I used to be a pilot trainee with Silkair / Singapore Airlines. I was destined for the A320s but alas, I failed the ATPL paper.

After one of our many ATPL exams at Changi Airport, I was plane spotting at the viewing gallery with a few of my flying college mates and one of them turned to me and asked, "How do you tell the difference between a Boeing and an Airbus?"

Needless to say i was dumbfounded and I didn't even know how to reply. I mean... WHERE DO YOU EVEN BEGIN TO DESCRIBE THE DIFFERENCES??

You be surprised many of them are flying the skies today (my ex-classmates). In fact one of them got screwed really bad while taxying in LAX recently. ATC told my mate to "taxy behind Aeroflot"... and he went blank. His first question was "What is Aeroflot?". He got a verbal bashing from the Captain.
Welcome to my starry one world alliance, a team in the sky!
 
Dreamflight767
Posts: 416
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RE: Ignorant Pilots...

Fri Nov 17, 2006 11:13 pm

A pilot not being able to recognize an airplane is pretty bad. But as an ATC student, I see this type of "Ignorance" every day amongst my fellow trainees. It is very frustrating to be working with them when they do not know what kind of airplane I'm referring to. And forget about them knowing airline color schemes.
 
lowrider
Posts: 2542
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:09 am

RE: Ignorant Pilots...

Sat Nov 18, 2006 12:48 am

Quoting Bahadir (Thread starter):
"I want to work for Southwest and make $150/hr"..

That statement is the most telling. Like someone else said, for some people, it will always be just a job. That doesn't make them unsafe or ignorant, just interested in other things. I have flown with a few guys like that and they do just fine. They are, quite bluntly, in it for the money. It is not different than someone who becomes a lawyer or an investment banker for the same reason. If they can't tell the difference between a 767 and a A330 I could not care less, just so long they know it is a heavy. Odds are they probably know a few things in areas where I am ignorant.
Proud OOTSK member
 
hmmmm...
Posts: 1959
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RE: Ignorant Pilots...

Sat Nov 18, 2006 1:22 am

This is shocking that any pilot, anywhere in the world, would not know the difference between, for example, an A320 and a 727. What a kid would know.

How is it that someone could become a pilot without having the basic knowledge a kid enthusiast would have? Could a doctor become a doctor without having the basic knowledge a kid enthusiast would have? Indeed, could a bricklayer become a bricklayer without having the basic knowledge that a kid interesting in bricklaying would himself have?

Would a kid know details that a doctor would not know? Not likely. Would a kid, with an interest in medicine, having perused through a few picture books on surgery, know the names and purposes of the surgical instruments on those full-color glossy pages, while the surgeon does not? Would we forgive the surgeon that would say, "Well, I'm in it for the money, so I don't really care about the details. I am not really a medicine enthusiast like some kids." No, we would not. Why do we forgive some pilots for being equally ignorant under the same logic?
An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
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falstaff
Posts: 5565
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RE: Ignorant Pilots...

Sat Nov 18, 2006 1:57 am

Quoting FlyHoss (Reply 9):
An excellent point that's even more important in the air when cleared to follow a certain type (after reporting it in sight) on a visual approach.

I listen to DTW ATC all the time when I am sitting at my desk at home and I always the controller telling a pilot to follow a 747, DC-9,A-320, etc.

Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 14):
I don't see how somebody could be a pilot "just because" they wanted to, and have barely any interest other than the $$$.

I find that hard to believe too, but I guess that is the way it is for some folks. I have met mechanics that can't tell a Mercedes-Benz from a BMW or have any clue what a Studebaker is. But they are good mechanics all the same. Pilots have to spend a lot of time and money to move up the latter so I find it hard to imagine spending all the time and money, but not being into planes. Mechanic spend lots of money on tools and equipment I probably have $25,000-$30,000 worth of tools and equipment and I know guys that have way more. I have a friend with an $8000 tool box (actually it is several boxes). I couldn't imagine spending that kind of money if I wasn't into working on cars.
My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
 
lowrider
Posts: 2542
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:09 am

RE: Ignorant Pilots...

Sat Nov 18, 2006 2:02 am

Quoting Hmmmm... (Reply 26):
Why do we forgive some pilots for being equally ignorant under the same logic?

Because you analogy does not hold up. We would forgive a brain surgeon if he could not name all of the bones in the foot. And we would forgive the brick layer if he didn't know all the manufactures of mortar.

An enthusiast is free to devote himself to things like aircraft identification, without having to worry about the rest of the body of knowledge that a pilot must concern himself with. If I had to choose between aircraft ident and IFR proceedures, I will pick IFR proceedures. Same goes with systems, FARs, applicable foreign regs, emergency proceedures, company policies, current events, employment intel, weather, and so on.
Proud OOTSK member
 
YYZYYT
Posts: 899
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2005 12:41 am

RE: Ignorant Pilots...

Sat Nov 18, 2006 2:18 am

Quoting Cessna057 (Reply 2):
"Look at that T7" "..........whats a T7?"

What, the new Schwartzenegger movie?

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 16):
What a lot of people don't realize is that for a lot of people flying is little more than a job, no different to them than if they were to punch a clock at an office everyday.

But seriously: I take the point that not everyone is really interested in spending all of their time learnnig the differences betwene difference aircraft (I find that odd, but to each their own).

But SURELY if you spend all day, every day, looking at Boeings and Airbuses taxing, landing and taking off, you would be able to pick up on the differences eventually. Especially if it occasionally proves necessary to know the difference.
 
AirWillie6475
Posts: 2372
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 1:45 pm

RE: Ignorant Pilots...

Sat Nov 18, 2006 3:42 am

Quoting Bahadir (Thread starter):
I am not trying to create a major argument here but i recently went through a training of a regional airline. What suprised me was the number of pilots (mid 20s) that couldn't tell the difference between an A320 and B767. (I am not kidding you).. I asked them why they got into aviation and their response was "I want to work for Southwest and make $150/hr".. I find it amazing that almost none of them was knowledgable enough about aircraft types, aviation history, etc..

I find this hard to believe because everybody that becomes a pilot has a common interest in aircraft, but knowing some people it may be true. There are a lot of guys that actually get into flying for the money but nature has a tendency of weeding out those people before they get to an interview board.

As far as the Southwest comment, it's agreeable just about anybody that has turbine PIC has contemplated about going to SW. Flying is flying so why not work at the place that pays the most?
 
bahadir
Posts: 1281
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2001 4:57 pm

RE: Ignorant Pilots...

Sat Nov 18, 2006 4:00 am

AirWillie,
you can find it hard to believe, but this is the truth. I can name at least 5 people in the class of 30 that we discussed this. they were like 'how do you know all this stuff?".. I said "how you CANNOT know it?"..
Another guy in the class saw a 727 on short final , which is right above our road we were driving on, and he goes 'is that a DC-10'..

I am NOT making this up.
Earthbound misfit I
 
bh4007
Posts: 225
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 2:19 am

RE: Ignorant Pilots...

Sat Nov 18, 2006 4:02 am

I think it's just plain lazy when pilots don't take the time and learn about their industry - I learnt about the basics of aviation and how to identify aircraft in about two weeks. Why a £30,000/yr first officer can't even be bothered to even look at a book about aviation for a half hour is beyond me.

If you aren't totally interested in your field of work - don't take the job. There are many people passionate about aviation that cannot afford to take flight training and become a pilot.

I would find it seriously embarrassing and insulting if my fellow pilot couldn't tell an A from a B! I can understand an FA not knowing everything about planes (many do though) but a pilot's ignorance/incompetence - unacceptable. Very sad indeed.
 
fumanchewd
Posts: 2878
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:43 am

RE: Ignorant Pilots...

Sat Nov 18, 2006 4:19 am

This topic is ridiculous. What does aircraft recognition have to do with a pilot's ability? Sure it helps in spotting traffic, but it isn't imperitive.

Now lets turn the topic around on you. If your interest is mainly in airliners, how good is your knowledge in general aviation aircraft. I know plenty of intelligent and knowledgeable airline pilots who couldn't tell the difference between a Cherokee 6 and a Lance or a Falcon 900 and a Falcon 7X. Or a GIII and a GIV. I have even met some airline pilots who have mistakenly called a G200 a Legacy. Can you tell the difference between a King Air 90 and a King Air 100? Does that mean that they are somehow unsafe?

No.
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
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RE: Ignorant Pilots...

Sat Nov 18, 2006 4:25 am



I've had controllers who demonstrated a slight lack of aircraft recognition skill, as well.

I was departing a decent-sized airport once. This particular airport has a pretty strange taxiway layout. A T-45 Goshawk (Navy jet) just taxied past me, on it's way to the active runway for departure.

I called ground, identified myself, and asked for clearance to "taxi to the active behind the Goshawk".

The frequency was silent for a minute. The controller finally replied with "Taxi behind the what??

I clarified that I wanted to taxi to the active behind the "orange and white Navy jet that's taxiing to the active".

He then cleared me to do just that. What really made me chuckle was the fact that the Goshawk and myself were the only two moving aircraft at the time. I mean, to what other aircraft could I possibly have been referring?

It was no big deal at all, but it made me wonder...




Quoting EmiratesA345 (Reply 12):
To question safety based on a pilot's ability to differntiate aircraft is absolutely ridiculous.

No it isn't. Not at all. If an airline pilot is approaching a smaller class D airport, for example, and the controller instructs the pilot to follow a Mooney on final, it would be in the interest of the pilot to be able to differentiate that Mooney from the Archer and Bonanza that are also in the pattern.

If, for example, he spots a Bonanza on short final, assumes that is the Mooney, and turns base to final, I wouldn't want to be the one in the Mooney about to get run over....



2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
fumanchewd
Posts: 2878
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:43 am

RE: Ignorant Pilots...

Sat Nov 18, 2006 4:42 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 34):
I was departing a decent-sized airport once. This particular airport has a pretty strange taxiway layout. A T-45 Goshawk (Navy jet) just taxied past me, on it's way to the active runway for departure.

I called ground, identified myself, and asked for clearance to "taxi to the active behind the Goshawk".

The frequency was silent for a minute. The controller finally replied with "Taxi behind the what??

I clarified that I wanted to taxi to the active behind the "orange and white Navy jet that's taxiing to the active".

 Yeah sure Sounds to me like you were just bragging. A very small percentage of pilots and ATC know the Goshawk. Why not just call it a T-45? But you had to end it with a condescending "orange and white" remark.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 34):
If an airline pilot is approaching a smaller class D airport, for example, and the controller instructs the pilot to follow a Mooney on final, it would be in the interest of the pilot to be able to differentiate that Mooney from the Archer and Bonanza that are also in the pattern.

If, for example, he spots a Bonanza on short final, assumes that is the Mooney, and turns base to final, I wouldn't want to be the one in the Mooney about to get run over....

From your statements you seem to be claiming that you know every aircraft designation and "name" on the planet. If not, what would happen if ATC told you to spot an aircraft that you didn't know.

Recognition is important but not absolutely necessary if you are looking for traffic and have your head on your shoulders like pilots should.
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
SUPRAZACHAIR
Posts: 474
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 3:27 pm

RE: Ignorant Pilots...

Sat Nov 18, 2006 4:51 am

Well, not all airline pilots spend every waking hour on A.net like all of us dorks. j/k  Wink

Kidding aside, aircraft recognition by now means determines pilot ability. My first flight instructor knew NOTHING about civil aircraft, but he knew more about military planes than I could believe. Different strokes for different folks.
 
meister808
Posts: 924
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2000 11:45 am

RE: Ignorant Pilots...

Sat Nov 18, 2006 5:23 am

The safety ramifications of an airline crewmember not being able to tell between a B737 and an A320 or something similar are probably fairly small.

That said, a professional pilot is just that, a professional. As a professional, that pilot has the responsibility to be as well informed about his(her) field as reasonably possible. That transcends discussions of embarassment, safety, or anything else.

-Meister
Twin Cessna 812 Victor, Minneapolis Center, we observe your operation in the immediate vicinity of extreme precipitation
 
fraspotter
Posts: 1972
Joined: Sat May 08, 2004 8:12 pm

RE: Ignorant Pilots...

Sat Nov 18, 2006 5:52 am

Quoting 113312 (Reply 21):
idn't know the difference between a MD-11, DC10-10 or a DC10-30.

Dude, I can't tell the difference visually between a -10 and a -30. Now if they can't tell the difference between a 747 and an A380, than that would be something to joke about. But the difference between a -10 and a -30? Com'on....
"Drunk drivers run stop signs. Stoners wait for them to turn green."
 
cubastar
Posts: 312
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:48 pm

RE: Ignorant Pilots...

Sat Nov 18, 2006 5:53 am

Quoting Meister808 (Reply 37):
The safety ramifications of an airline crewmember not being able to tell between a B737 and an A320 or something similar are probably fairly small.

That said, a professional pilot is just that, a professional. As a professional, that pilot has the responsibility to be as well informed about his(her) field as reasonably possible. That transcends discussions of embarassment, safety, or anything else.

Absolutely! There seems to be a high percentage of A.netters who think that everyone has to agree with them on everything. Are those of you who know all of the commercial aircraft (All Manufacturers) and all private aircraft just as knowledgable of military aircraft? (All Manufacturers)?? If so, I guess that it's the generation of "Welcome to My World....No one else matters".
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: Ignorant Pilots...

Sat Nov 18, 2006 5:59 am




Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 35):
Sounds to me like you were just bragging.

Well, your interpretation isn't accurate. I was in no way attempting to "brag".

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 35):
A very small percentage of pilots and ATC know the Goshawk.

Care to present some evidence to back up your claim? Because it seems to me you're presenting this statement as fact...

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 35):
Why not just call it a T-45?

Well, because numerical designations are more commonly confused and mistaken than names. "Tee Forty-Five" also has twice as many syllables as "Goshawk". Ultimately, "Goshawk" is quicker to say, and there's less of a chance that it will be mistaken for another aircraft.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 35):
But you had to end it with a condescending "orange and white" remark.

My remark, as spoken, was not condescending, Fumanchewd. How do I know? I was there, and I was the one who made the remark. You were neither.

Besides, when asked to elaborate on which aircraft I was referring to, "orange and white Navy jet that's taxiing to the active" is about as good a description as could be expected. I was just describing the jet, Fumanchewd. Nothing more, nothing less.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 35):
From your statements you seem to be claiming that you know every aircraft designation and "name" on the planet.

My aircraft recognition ability is irrelevant, Fumanchewd. It's time for you to get off my back.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 35):
If not, what would happen if ATC told you to spot an aircraft that you didn't know.

I'd ask for clarification.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 35):
Recognition is important but not absolutely necessary if you are looking for traffic and have your head on your shoulders like pilots should.

Aircraft recognition is a fundamental part of aviation safety when you're operating among different aircraft types.

Any more questions, Fumanchewd?



2H4


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fumanchewd
Posts: 2878
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RE: Ignorant Pilots...

Sat Nov 18, 2006 6:09 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 40):
Care to present some evidence to back up your claim? Because it seems to me you're presenting this statement as fact...

From being around pilots, being a pilot, and working with pilots 12 hours a day or so, I just know that most don't know what a Goshawk is. I just happen to know because I've seen quite a few fly in to my home airport. Take it or leave it. You should have said T-45 instead of showing off.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 40):
Aircraft recognition is a fundamental part of aviation safety when you're operating among different aircraft types.

Nah. Please show me the relevant FAR or AIM chapter that states that is is "a fundamental part of aviation safety" to be able to identify all aircraft. It is helpful, I agree. But it isn't necessary. I know this from personal experience and by talking with hundreds of professional pilots who can't identify certain types of aircraft. Get over it. Move on.
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
OB1504
Posts: 2985
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RE: Ignorant Pilots...

Sat Nov 18, 2006 6:14 am

Quoting FRAspotter (Reply 38):

Dude, I can't tell the difference visually between a -10 and a -30. Now if they can't tell the difference between a 747 and an A380, than that would be something to joke about. But the difference between a -10 and a -30? Com'on....

If it helps, the best way to tell the difference between the DC-10-10 and the DC-10-30 is by checking the main gear. The DC-10-10 lacks a center gear strut due to its lighter weight.


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Admittedly, if you're not looking at the airplane from the right angle, you won't be able to check the landing gear.

No, for the difference between a DC-10 and the MD-11, I'd prefer that the pilot knew that (again, though, the best way to check requires viewing from a certain angle), but as stated above, more importantly on my list of priorities is that the pilot knows how to fly his or her aircraft and conform to the applying aviation regulations.

What good is a pilot that can tell the difference between an A320-232 and an A320-233 if they can't figure out how to fly their own airplane?
 
hmmmm...
Posts: 1959
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RE: Ignorant Pilots...

Sat Nov 18, 2006 6:18 am

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 28):
ecause you analogy does not hold up. We would forgive a brain surgeon if he could not name all of the bones in the foot. And we would forgive the brick layer if he didn't know all the manufactures of mortar.

If an airline pilot can not tell the difference between a 727 and a DC-10, that is akin to a surgeon not knowing the difference between a a big toe and a small toe. And no such surgeon exists. Why should such an airline pilot exist?
An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
David L
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RE: Ignorant Pilots...

Sat Nov 18, 2006 6:20 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 40):
Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 35):
If not, what would happen if ATC told you to spot an aircraft that you didn't know.

I'd ask for clarification.

And ATC would probably say something like...

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 34):
the "orange and white Navy jet that's taxiing to the active".

I've heard expressions like "the big blue one in front of you" from ATC when a pilot wasn't sure what he was looking for.
 
2H4
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RE: Ignorant Pilots...

Sat Nov 18, 2006 6:24 am




Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 41):
From being around pilots, being a pilot, and working with pilots 12 hours a day or so, I just know that most don't know what a Goshawk is.

As I'm sure you've asked all of those pilots about the T-45 specifically, I look forward to hearing how you know for certain that "a very small percentage" of ATC is familiar with the aircraft.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 41):
You should have said T-45 instead of showing off.

Again, I wasn't attempting to "show off". Stop suggesting otherwise. It makes you seem defensive, jealous, and immature.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 41):
Please show me the relevant FAR or AIM chapter that states that is is "a fundamental part of aviation safety" to be able to identify all aircraft.

It's called "common sense", and it's what halfway logical and intelligent people use.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 41):
It is helpful, I agree. But it isn't necessary. I know this from personal experience and by talking with hundreds of professional pilots who can't identify certain types of aircraft.

I think you're losing track of the discussion, and forgetting that there are different degrees of the skill. At no point have I suggested that a complete and total understanding of aircraft recognition is necessary. I've only suggested that a basic understanding is an important part of aviation safety.

In fact, in my initial post, I merely suggested that, with only one other aircraft on the field, the controller should have been able to deduce to which one I was referring. A keen reader would also have noticed that I said it's no big deal.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 41):
Get over it. Move on.

With all due respect, Fumanchewd, I'm not the one criticizing another here. If you don't like clarification, stop making accusations.

Have a nice day.  Smile



2H4


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2H4
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RE: Ignorant Pilots...

Sat Nov 18, 2006 6:29 am




Quoting David L (Reply 44):
I've heard expressions like "the big blue one in front of you" from ATC when a pilot wasn't sure what he was looking for.

Exactly. Being direct and simple is not the same as being cocky or disrespectful. Usually, the tone of voice says it all.  yes 



2H4


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troyshouse
Posts: 5
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RE: Ignorant Pilots...

Sat Nov 18, 2006 6:31 am

I do not believe that any active pilot flying for a regional/fractional/corporate entity or larger would not be able to tell the difference between an A320 and a B767.

The original post stated that the pilots who were unable to tell the difference were in training for a regional airline. By the time one gets hired by a regional airline (at least in the U.S.) they are likely to have 1,000 hours total time or more and have spent a majority of that time as a flight instructor. With that amount of time and in light of the FAA requirement to provide some percentage of flight instruction for primary students into towered airports (even if they are not class B) the concept that a trainee for a regional airliner could not differentiate between an A320 and B767 lacks credibility.
Troy - UAL787
 
isitsafenow
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RE: Ignorant Pilots...

Sat Nov 18, 2006 6:37 am

The younger guys dont know the old stuff. I had to tell a Mesaba first officer the dif between a 707 and 720. He swore they were exactly the same but numbered different by the CARRIER because 720 was higher then 707, thus some airlines wanted their planes to sound newer......like the DC-10 model 20 changing to model 40 per request by Northwest's Don Nyrop.
After a nice conversation, he got the message and I learned a couple of things about the AVRO 85.
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
fumanchewd
Posts: 2878
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RE: Ignorant Pilots...

Sat Nov 18, 2006 6:38 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 45):
At no point have I suggested that a complete and total understanding of aircraft recognition is necessary. I've only suggested that a basic understanding is an important part of aviation safety.

In fact, in my initial post, I merely suggested that, with only one other aircraft on the field, the controller should have been able to deduce to which one I was referring.

...on an obscure aircraft name that you used and you are now proceeding to discuss him in a thread about ignorant pilots, thus implying that he was ignorant.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 45):
At no point have I suggested that a complete and total understanding of aircraft recognition is necessary.



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 40):
Aircraft recognition is a fundamental part of aviation safety when you're operating among different aircraft types.



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 34):
I called ground, identified myself, and asked for clearance to "taxi to the active behind the Goshawk".

The frequency was silent for a minute. The controller finally replied with "Taxi behind the what??

I clarified that I wanted to taxi to the active behind the "orange and white Navy jet that's taxiing to the active".



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 45):
Again, I wasn't attempting to "show off". Stop suggesting otherwise. It makes you seem defensive, jealous, and immature.



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 45):
It's called "common sense", and it's what halfway logical and intelligent people use.

I'll just make your own statements available for others to make a decision as to how rational you are. I could care less.
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
RIXrat
Posts: 670
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RE: Ignorant Pilots...

Sat Nov 18, 2006 7:04 am

I'm not that old, but what happened to the aircraft silhouettes that WWII and beyond fighter pilots had to remember as a course of their training so that they don't accidentally shoot down their own aircraft.

As an example, if you couldn't tell an ME-109 from a Spitfire, Hurricane, or P-51, on the silluete drawings that you were supposed to memorise, you were automatically washed out as a pilot, because you would be a danger to the RAF, or the US Air Corps.