Johnny
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Lufthansa To Announce Longhaul-order Part 2

Fri Nov 17, 2006 6:44 pm

Hi guys,

thanks to all users which read the first part of this thread and/or posted some answers.  Smile

The thread was closed by a moderator because i did not talk about my source.Ridicilous!!! (See last reply)

At this time i simply cannot post my source here, because the pricing behind the scenes with both A and B is still going on. But i wanted to talk about the good news and inform everybody who is interested in it!

Facts are:
-The decision is already made.
-It´s not A or B, but both.
-It will be announced in december 2006, not in early 2007.
-shorthaul-order is postponed
-status of regional-order still open

@ A.net-Moderator : Thanks for closing my previous thread ! I hope you do the same for all threads now which are REALLY based on rumours only!
 
columba
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RE: Lufthansa To Announce Longhaul-order Part 2

Fri Nov 17, 2006 7:03 pm

In the last thread you posted that LH will also decide about an A300 successor next year, so will there be a real widebody-replacement or will we see more A321 ?
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
justloveplanes
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RE: Lufthansa To Announce Longhaul-order Part 2

Fri Nov 17, 2006 7:04 pm

Is this the longhaul order (787 or 350) or the 744 replacement (77W, 748I, 380) or both? They had announced an intention to do the 748 replacement in December a few months back, so that part makes sense.

I was not on the other thread so excuse the repetition...

Also, the A & B nature, plus Boeing's announcement they are no longer "confident" of a 748I order supports an A380 take up with 77W's. I'll not be surprised to see more of that.
 
Johnny
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RE: Lufthansa To Announce Longhaul-order Part 2

Fri Nov 17, 2006 8:33 pm

@ Columba

As far as i am informed the A300-600 decision is postponed UFN due to lack of suitable airplanes offered by A and B.

@Justloveplanes

It will be an order for medium AND large airplanes.But that does not mean automatically the big ones are replacing the big ones and vice versa.
This order could really be a surprise for some people!


Johnny
 
NYC777
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RE: Lufthansa To Announce Longhaul-order Part 2

Fri Nov 17, 2006 10:01 pm

Johnny you started a good thread and I would think that threads like that are fun if were speculating what LHs fleet might comprise of. Sometimes I don't understand the mods rational for closing threads or deleting certain items. But thanks for starting part 2!!!
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RE: Lufthansa To Announce Longhaul-order Part 2

Fri Nov 17, 2006 10:15 pm

Quoting Johnny (Reply 3):

As far as i am informed the A300-600 decision is postponed UFN due to lack of suitable airplanes offered by A and B.

I somehow think that the 783 is as good an A300-600 replacement as LH will get till at least 2015, albeit it is somewhat on the heavy side.

SailorOrion
 
Burkhard
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RE: Lufthansa To Announce Longhaul-order Part 2

Fri Nov 17, 2006 10:47 pm

One thing that hasn't been said yet:

Given the geographical position of Frankfurt or Munich, many "long range" destinations (KORD,KJFK,KEWR,KIAD,KDTW,KBOS) are in the reach of a standard A330-300 with full load. In October ( http://www.airbus.com/en/presscentre..._10_13_lufthansa_a320_a330300.html for the purists who want the cites ) there was an order of 30 A32x and 5 more "long range A333" - with 5500nm KDFW, KDEN, KMIA and even SBGL and SKBO are in reach.

KLAX,KSEA,KSFO and KSAN, PANC and PHNL are the only US destinations that require longer range, SABE, and all Far Eastern destinations in ASIA east of Bangkok too.

Given economics, the A333 is the most effective aircraft of it's size currently. If you cannot fill it, don't plan for a 773. If you can fill it, you can really make money with it.

So another order of a dozen A333 would be enough to shift the A343 and 346 to the longer destinations, remove some of the oldest 744, sit back and wait for A380 and 787 747NG to really fly, maybe take a few A346 that haven't the range required at other continents for a good prize, look how A350 grows, any decision now beyond that makes not much sense.

Lufthansa was successfull as either launch costumor or holding back and waiting, they waited long with the A330 and now seem to like it.
 
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RE: Lufthansa To Announce Longhaul-order Part 2

Fri Nov 17, 2006 11:15 pm

Quoting Johnny (Thread starter):
-The decision is already made.
-It´s not A or B, but both.
-It will be announced in december 2006, not in early 2007.
-shorthaul-order is postponed
-status of regional-order still open

I think it's safe to assume there will be some 748i's ordered up. No doubt they will top-off their A380's. What I want to know is if the 777 is in this order. Or, alternatively, will they order more 346's?


BTW, Johnny, I liked your first thread and I was just as stunned to see it locked out. The threads on this forum are 99% speculative and that is why we all come here...to speculate. If a source isn't provided then so what? We can simply not believe what is said in the post.
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RE: Lufthansa To Announce Longhaul-order Part 2

Fri Nov 17, 2006 11:24 pm

What will be postitively shocking is any passenger order for Boeings. That, in and of itslef, will be shocking. What would be absolutely mind boggling is any order for passenger jets from Boeing that have anything near a direct competitor from Airbus. This means the 78-9, the 78-10 and the 773ER. I just can't see that happening with Villepin and Chirac practicaly slapping Merkel senseless at the prospect. If they order 78-8's or 748i's then I'll just be shocked, any of the three above and I'll be boggled. But leasing is cheating, they have to buy.
 
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RE: Lufthansa To Announce Longhaul-order Part 2

Fri Nov 17, 2006 11:34 pm

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 7):
BTW, Johnny, I liked your first thread and I was just as stunned to see it locked out.

Me too. To be fair, what Patrick complained about was that the title was misleading and it should have made it explicit that it was speculation. Having said that, locking the thread was very heavy-handed in my opinion and a small title change would have kept everyone happy.

Quoting Johnny (Thread starter):
@ A.net-Moderator : Thanks for closing my previous thread ! I hope you do the same for all threads now which are REALLY based on rumours only!

Johnny, I also enjoyed the thread and all the speculation!

Tony
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Stitch
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RE: Lufthansa To Announce Longhaul-order Part 2

Fri Nov 17, 2006 11:34 pm

The problem is, Wingman, is if LH feels they need next-generation planes sooner rather then later to compete, then waiting for Airbus could hurt their competitiveness.

So unless the German government is willing to write checks made out to "Cash" to LH to keep their revenues flowing and their stock price up, if the 747, 777, or 787 makes sense, they're going to buy it.

For, as noted, LH is not replacing their entire widebody fleet with this order. They still have a bunch of current generation Airbus widebodies on order that they will be taking delivery of, as well as plenty of current-generation Airbus widebodies that won't need replacing until the latter half of the 2010s.

So an up-front order of 787-9s to replace the A343s (their least-efficient widebody) and either 773ERs or 748s to replace some of the 744s with an add-on of A388s to replace some others, makes the most sense to me at the moment.

Then, later on, LH can add the A3510 to replace their A346s and the A359 to replace their A333s if that is what they feel is appropriate to do.
 
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RE: Lufthansa To Announce Longhaul-order Part 2

Fri Nov 17, 2006 11:39 pm

Is it possible that LH could use the 787-10 and if so could they been the launch customer for the -10 (finally Boeing would actually go ahead and formally start its development)?
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Stitch
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RE: Lufthansa To Announce Longhaul-order Part 2

Fri Nov 17, 2006 11:49 pm

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 11):
Is it possible that LH could use the 787-10 and if so could they been the launch customer for the -10 (finally Boeing would actually go ahead and formally start its development)?

Internal sources have been heresayed on this board as saying the 787 won the RFP over the A350XWB in LH's most recent comparison. I have to believe the 787-10 was part of that RFP, so Boeing may have finally met at least LH's demands, if not EK's.

And, frankly, with EK's current fleet expansion, they can probably afford to wait a year or two to see how many more percent Boeing can extract from the 787-10. LH might not want to wait at the moment, with the knowledge they can always get it later - either with new-builds or retrofits if the performance improvements are retrofittable like the 773ER's were.
 
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RE: Lufthansa To Announce Longhaul-order Part 2

Sat Nov 18, 2006 12:25 am

Quoting Wingman (Reply 8):
I just can't see that happening with Villepin and Chirac practicaly slapping Merkel senseless at the prospect.

like they did with themselves when AF dared to order 777's?
 
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RE: Lufthansa To Announce Longhaul-order Part 2

Sat Nov 18, 2006 12:30 am

Quoting Wingman (Reply 8):
I just can't see that happening with Villepin and Chirac practicaly slapping Merkel senseless at the prospect. If they order 78-8's or 748i's then I'll just be shocked, any of the three above and I'll be boggled.

I dunno, Merkel has been significantly more pro-US than her predecessors. I'm not saying she'd push Lufthansa to buy anything from Boeing; just that she wouldn't see it as a matter to interfere with.
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RE: Lufthansa To Announce Longhaul-order Part 2

Sat Nov 18, 2006 12:41 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 14):
I dunno, Merkel has been significantly more pro-US than her predecessors. I'm not saying she'd push Lufthansa to buy anything from Boeing; just that she wouldn't see it as a matter to interfere with.

Well isn't LH totally free from German govt influence or control? I thought they were a regular corporate enitity just like AA or UA is here in the States?
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Stitch
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RE: Lufthansa To Announce Longhaul-order Part 2

Sat Nov 18, 2006 12:43 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 15):
Well isn't LH totally free from German govt influence or control? I thought they were a regular corporate enitity just like AA or UA is here in the States?

So say the German members of this board, and I have no reason to doubt their claims.
 
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RE: Lufthansa To Announce Longhaul-order Part 2

Sat Nov 18, 2006 12:52 am

Definitively, the influence of politicians on Lufthansa is not the dominant factor, and Mr. Chirac is more afraid of Merkel than on his own wife, rumors say ge calls her Maggy while dreaming. OK, if LH would cancel all A380 it would, but behind that it is also understood that LH shouldn't become an A only company.

I just do not see what a 787 could be good for. OK, to fly to Australia, but
a) LH does not fly into Australia, and
b) People like the current schedules to leave Europe in the late evening and arrive at Sydney in early morning - a non stop schedule cannot find any attractive schedule as long as Sydney is closed for 10 hours and Europe the other 6.
I expect Condor to opt for the 787 to replace the 763.

Another point pro B is the fact that Lufthansa Technik is maintaining all A and all B planes. So it may well be that some inhouse diversity helps to be competitive on all maintenance markets.

777s - I would be surprised. They are so much louder inside and the 2-5-2 seats are so unpopular that LH couldn't get the price per seat it gets with the A340s. 748 are more likely.
So my speculation for the long range order: A333,B748,A380 - and let others try the plastic aircrafts.
 
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RE: Lufthansa To Announce Longhaul-order Part 2

Sat Nov 18, 2006 12:52 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 16):
So say the German members of this board, and I have no reason to doubt their claims.

Then Merkel or anyoone else n the German Govt. shouldn't, couldn't and be prevented from even offering a hint of what LH's future fleet should be. That should be up to the fleet planners at LH. It's the airlines that sinks or swims with the fleet they have.
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Burkhard
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RE: Lufthansa To Announce Longhaul-order Part 2

Sat Nov 18, 2006 1:05 am

Yes, and LH has done well so in difficult times, when their profit per year was higher than the share value of many competitors. They got rid of the A342 without any long discussion, well sold or long term leased away, because they had no need for them, they do not take the A345 too, because they do not need them. They know what they do. If they find out, like in the A320/B738 question, that there is no difference, they will buy Airbus, but if there is an advantage of more than a percent, they will go Boeing.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Lufthansa To Announce Longhaul-order Part 2

Sat Nov 18, 2006 1:06 am

Of course, we probably shouldn't be talking so much about Monsieur Chirac, whose term as President of France is coming to an end.

Ségolène Royal has been chosen by the Socialists as their nominee for the Presidency and is considered one of the leading candidates for the Office.

Mademoiselle Royal has noted that protection of French jobs is important to her, so perhaps she will be as aggressive - or even more so - that Monsieur Chirac in protecting French jobs. Mademoiselle Royal is protégé of French presidential icon François Mitterrand, but I admit I don't remember his domestic economic policies as well as I should.
 
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RE: Lufthansa To Announce Longhaul-order Part 2

Sat Nov 18, 2006 1:09 am

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 17):
777s - I would be surprised. They are so much louder inside and the 2-5-2 seats are so unpopular that LH couldn't get the price per seat it gets with the A340s. 748 are more likely.

2-5-2 is an airline choice. and while some of us may not like it, there are plenty of profitable carriers flying around with 2-5-2 or 3-3-3 config'd 777s.
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RE: Lufthansa To Announce Longhaul-order Part 2

Sat Nov 18, 2006 1:15 am

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 21):
2-5-2 is an airline choice. and while some of us may not like it, there are plenty of profitable carriers flying around with 2-5-2 or 3-3-3 config'd 777s.

True. But LH passengers would have to be convinced that an A340 to 777 exchange is not a downgrade in quality after so many years of telling them the opposite. Investments into additional comfort, anti noise systems etc would be necessary.
 
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RE: Lufthansa To Announce Longhaul-order Part 2

Sat Nov 18, 2006 2:18 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 20):
Ségolène Royal has been chosen by the Socialists as their nominee for the Presidency and is considered one of the leading candidates for the Office.

She already won!!!
 
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RE: Lufthansa To Announce Longhaul-order Part 2

Sat Nov 18, 2006 2:26 am

Quoting Flysherwood (Reply 23):
She already won!!!

She won the Socialist nomination, but the run-off for the French Presidency is not until April 22, 2007 and the top two candidates will then face each other on May 6, 2007. The winner of that election will be President of the Republic.
 
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RE: Lufthansa To Announce Longhaul-order Part 2

Sat Nov 18, 2006 2:27 am

On the other thread, many speculated that the order will be for A380's and 787's. I'd have to say that sounds logical and even likely. But wouldn't it be cool if it was for 748's and A350's instead? Would make lots of people on a.net happy and also be a big boost to both manufacturers' programs. Of course I know that is not going to have any bearing on LH's decision, just think it would be a very nice surprise.
 
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RE: Lufthansa To Announce Longhaul-order Part 2

Sat Nov 18, 2006 2:32 am

Quoting ER757 (Reply 25):
and A350's instead?

Seems logical as LH announcement is apparently going to be made around A350 launch date.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Lufthansa To Announce Longhaul-order Part 2

Sat Nov 18, 2006 2:35 am

Quoting ER757 (Reply 25):
On the other thread, many speculated that the order will be for A380's and 787's. I'd have to say that sounds logical and even likely.

Agreed.

Quoting ER757 (Reply 25):
But wouldn't it be cool if it was for 748's and A350's instead?

It would be, but I don't believe the A350XWB is defined enough for LH to take the leap and hold out for it exclusively. LH is large enough to operate both the 787 and the A350 and it allows them to use the 787 now to make strategic equipment replacements and expansions while waiting to see what the A350XWB program offers as a final config and how well that program executes.

The 748I is going to hinge on what LH feels their traffic needs at the high-end will be over the two decades. If they must have 747 capacity for that period, then the 748 is going to be ordered. If they can continue to use enough of their existing 744 fleet to tide them over as they replace them with A388s, A346s, A3510s, 773ERs, and/or "787-11"/Y3, then I feel the 748I will not be ordered.
 
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RE: Lufthansa To Announce Longhaul-order Part 2

Sat Nov 18, 2006 2:36 am

Quoting Wingman (Reply 8):
What will be postitively shocking is any passenger order for Boeings. That, in and of itslef, will be shocking.

It would be shocking only for those who have always believed in that odd "LH&Airbus-a.net-conspiracy"-theory...  Wink

Quoting Wingman (Reply 8):
I just can't see that happening with Villepin and Chirac practicaly slapping Merkel senseless at the prospect.

LH has been a profitable job machine in Germany over years, so it wouldn't be a smart move by leading politicians to try to influence major future decisions. They would be severely attacked by the media who would most probably find out about the move.

And if they still tried to speak up, LH's managers wouldn't be very impressed, to say it diplomatically...

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 17):
I just do not see what a 787 could be good for.

There are numerous reasons for ordering the B787.

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 17):
777s - I would be surprised. They are so much louder inside and the 2-5-2 seats are so unpopular that LH couldn't get the price per seat it gets with the A340s.

That wouldn't prevent LH from ordering the plane. 3-3-3 would work well for LH, the difference of the types' noise levels isn't as dramatic as often claimed and those who notice could still use noise-cancelling headsets.

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 22):
But LH passengers would have to be convinced that an A340 to 777 exchange is not a downgrade in quality after so many years of telling them the opposite. Investments into additional comfort, anti noise systems etc would be necessary.

Most of the world's premium airlines operate the B777, so I don't see a reason why LH pax wouldn't accept the plane.


PH
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Burkhard
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RE: Lufthansa To Announce Longhaul-order Part 2

Sat Nov 18, 2006 2:46 am

I just looked it up. LH has 20 B744 from 1992 and before, the others are newer. A343 will be silently replaced by A333LR.

Only B787 and A380 cannot be the answer how to replace the 20 aging 744, one is too tiny and the other too large. 20 A380 cannot be filled. 20 additional A346 are unlikely. 20 B787 are too small.

Ségolène Royal will take a rather pushy position for French Industry, much more than the liberal Chirac.
 
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RE: Lufthansa To Announce Longhaul-order Part 2

Sat Nov 18, 2006 2:50 am

Hi Johnny,

Quoting Johnny (Thread starter):
Hi guys,

thanks to all users which read the first part of this thread and/or posted some answers. Smile

The thread was closed by a moderator because I did not talk about my source.Ridicilous!!! (See last reply)

At this time I simply cannot post my source here, because the pricing behind the scenes with both A and B is still going on. But I wanted to talk about the good news and inform everybody who is interested in it!

I agree, our beloved moderators need to ensure that the power they yield is used with some discretion! It is clear from your first post that what you heard was unsubstantiated and so should be taken with a grain of salt. That said you should still be free to post what you feel (and I too) is of interest to this community.

An open and lightly regulated forum is in the best interest of all. That said it is also incumbent upon us to moderate ourselves and not complain to the powers that be anytime someone posts something disparaging about something that is near and dear to our heart (calling the 380 whalejet, saying that 767-400 was a failure, that eads sucks, that boeing sucks, or anything bad about British airways, Southwest airlines, to name a few).

So Johnny post away. Have you heard anything new? You know I heard that they were looking at the 747i and the 380, I do hope they chose my guys but it will probably mostly go eads way. IN MY OPINION (I hope that satisfies our beloved and overworked moderators!).

Peace

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RE: Lufthansa To Announce Longhaul-order Part 2

Sat Nov 18, 2006 2:51 am

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 28):
Most of the world's premium airlines operate the B777, so I don't see a reason why LH pax wouldn't accept the plane.

SQ is rolling out a mega luxury first and business class on a 777, and EK an CX also fly the plane. These airlines market themselves as the premium brand airlines (and have a rightful claim to do so) along with the Non 777 VS.
 
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RE: Lufthansa To Announce Longhaul-order Part 2

Sat Nov 18, 2006 3:37 am

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 29):
Only B787 and A380 cannot be the answer how to replace the 20 aging 744, one is too tiny and the other too large. 20 A380 cannot be filled. 20 additional A346 are unlikely. 20 B787 are too small.

I think the 748 is an option, too. Let's wait and see...
 wave 
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RE: Lufthansa To Announce Longhaul-order Part 2

Sat Nov 18, 2006 3:49 am

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 28):
It would be shocking only for those who have always believed in that odd "LH&Airbus-a.net-conspiracy"-theory...

Well said.

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 28):
Most of the world's premium airlines operate the B777, so I don't see a reason why LH pax wouldn't accept the plane.

I share your feelings about the 777 pax, however, I'm thinking that Cargo is more likely to get the T7, especially after the FedEx announcement. 747-8i very likely. If LH wants to roll the dice with 787 versus A350XBW, I'm sure Boeing will quickly find new homes for LH's rumored delivery slots.
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elvis777
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RE: Lufthansa To Announce Longhaul-order Part 2

Sat Nov 18, 2006 4:05 am

Howdy PH,

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 28):
It would be shocking only for those who have always believed in that odd "LH&Airbus-a.net-conspiracy"-theory... Wink

Fair enough. But if LH goes all eads, or mostly eads with a token boeing then would it raise the conspiracy theory to the realm of reality? I guess it cuts both ways.


 Smile

Peace

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RE: Lufthansa To Announce Longhaul-order Part 2

Sat Nov 18, 2006 4:18 am

Quoting Elvis777 (Reply 34):
Fair enough. But if LH goes all eads, or mostly eads with a token boeing then would it raise the conspiracy theory to the realm of reality? I guess it cuts both ways.

It won't. Mayrhuber has made that quite clear.
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SNATH
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RE: Lufthansa To Announce Longhaul-order Part 2

Sat Nov 18, 2006 4:18 am

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 29):
A343 will be silently replaced by A333LR.

Pardon my ignorance, but what's a A333LR? Is it an A333 with extra tanks (and is LR is true designation)? That's the first time I hear about this.

Regards,

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Stitch
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RE: Lufthansa To Announce Longhaul-order Part 2

Sat Nov 18, 2006 4:23 am

Quoting Elvis777 (Reply 34):
Fair enough. But if LH goes all eads, or mostly eads with a token boeing then would it raise the conspiracy theory to the realm of reality? I guess it cuts both ways.

Yes, but if LH fares as well or better then airlines who chose the 787, the financial aspect we all argue should hopefully end up holding sway.

I'd believe it was purely political if LH chooses all Airbus, gets creamed in the marketplace by 787-operating competitors, and then receives (in)direct support from the German (and perhaps French and Spannish) governments.  Wink
 
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RE: Lufthansa To Announce Longhaul-order Part 2

Sat Nov 18, 2006 5:00 am

Quoting SNATH (Reply 36):
Pardon my ignorance, but what's a A333LR? Is it an A333 with extra tanks (and is LR is true designation)? That's the first time I hear about this.

My guess is it's the A330-300X (X for High Gross Weight). In the case of LH, those are A330-343X as they operate the Trent 700 on their A333s.
 
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RE: Lufthansa To Announce Longhaul-order Part 2

Sat Nov 18, 2006 5:22 am

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 6):
Given the geographical position of Frankfurt or Munich, many "long range" destinations (KORD,KJFK,KEWR,KIAD,KDTW,KBOS) are in the reach of a standard A330-300 with full load. In October ( http://www.airbus.com/en/presscentre..._10_13_lufthansa_a320_a330300.html for the purists who want the cites ) there was an order of 30 A32x and 5 more "long range A333" - with 5500nm KDFW, KDEN, KMIA and even SBGL and SKBO are in reach.

KLAX,KSEA,KSFO and KSAN, PANC and PHNL are the only US destinations that require longer range, SABE, and all Far Eastern destinations in ASIA east of Bangkok too.

Two things I have to mention:

First, please use IATA codes for airports. Many a.netters aren't used to ICAO codes, and with the exception of airports in the USA, you can't guess what they stand for.
Then, of course the A333 can fly 5500nm, but without cargo. LH will continue to use the A343 on the longer routes.


Apart from that, welcome to a.net !

A342
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elvis777
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RE: Lufthansa To Announce Longhaul-order Part 2

Sat Nov 18, 2006 5:48 am

Hi Stitch,

Quoting Stitch (Reply 37):
I'd believe it was purely political if LH chooses all Airbus, gets creamed in the marketplace by 787-operating competitors, and then receives (in)direct support from the German (and perhaps French and Spannish) governments. Wink

The outcome does not really matter in order for it to be a political decision. In other words if LH orders eads and does well or poorly (and this is a difficult measure since ther are other variables at play) does not make the decision less political! So the argument , at the moment is that the german govt. applies a great deal of pressure to purchase eads birds regardless of the merits of the aircraft. Also, another argument might be that LH itself is very much vested in the eads (through Tecnik) that they chose eads over Boeing regardless of merit.

That is a politicized (sic) decision. If they get bailed out later on by the german or french (highly unlikely!!!) then that is another issue completely.

Dear , Thorben, Leskova, Columba et all., I am not yet arguing that LH makes purchasing decisions that are not based on the merits of the plane itself. Rather I am merely suggesting that Plane Hunters comment (see my original post) that the above argument is an A.net conspiracy should not be thrown in the same bin as little green men from outer space.

Peace

Elvis777

edit=Misspelled Leskova!

[Edited 2006-11-17 21:49:40]
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PlaneHunter
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RE: Lufthansa To Announce Longhaul-order Part 2

Sat Nov 18, 2006 5:54 am

Quoting Elvis777 (Reply 40):
So the argument , at the moment is that the german govt. applies a great deal of pressure to purchase eads birds regardless of the merits of the aircraft.

Which is purely baseless and speculative.

Quoting Elvis777 (Reply 40):
Also, another argument might be that LH itself is very much vested in the eads (through Tecnik) that they chose eads over Boeing regardless of merit.

See above.


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
elvis777
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RE: Lufthansa To Announce Longhaul-order Part 2

Sat Nov 18, 2006 7:29 am

Hi PH,

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 41):
So the argument , at the moment is that the German govt. applies a great deal of pressure to purchase eads birds regardless of the merits of the aircraft.

Which is purely baseless and speculative.

Well I'll agree that it is somewhat speculative, but not baseless. I am not sure we will ever know the truth, but perhaps when the next order occurs and LH goes 50/50 then we can put this to bed.

Which is all I was trying to point out, that it should not be so offhandedly dismissed. Maybe there is just a tiny grain of truth to it, maybe more, maybe none at all.

But, respectfully, I don’t not agree with both of your assessments
1. That it is baseless
2. That it is an A.net conspiracy.

I still think it is a bit early and this needs to be played out. Suppose that things really go south at eads, and lots of Germans, including those at tecnik get layed off. What happens then? Maybe the Parent company of LH makes a decision that will benefit tecnik and impact very little LH. Maybe the German fed and regional govts push real hard.

maybe not though.


Just an aside, the last sentence in my previous post made clear that I was not promulgating either of the two scenarios you so easily dismissed.

Tell you what, I'll acquiesce that perhaps it is an A.net conspiracy theory if you meet me half way and say that it is not baseless.

Deal or no deal?

Peace

Elvis777
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Burkhard
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RE: Lufthansa To Announce Longhaul-order Part 2

Sat Nov 18, 2006 7:36 am

A330,340 and 350 are mainly Toulouse made, so the pressure from Germany is small. And AF is the main competitor of LH, if they canpurchase 777s LH can do so too. The political plane is the A380, there I agree. Everything else is pure market decision.

The Long Range A330 you find on a site called airliners.net, if you ever heared about it, http://www.airliners.net/info/stats.main?id=25

5500 nm with max passenger, 295-440 seats, 217000kg dep weight.
Compare to a plane with
8500 nm with max passenger, 210-330 seats, 216000kg dep weight.

Where is the problem?

I do not doubt that the A343 will be with LH for long. They are quiet from outside and inside, can carry cargo, are popular, but I doubt LH will order more of them, unfortunately.
 
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AA777223
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RE: Lufthansa To Announce Longhaul-order Part 2

Sat Nov 18, 2006 8:53 am

[quote=LTU932,reply=38]My guess is it's the A330-300X (X for High Gross Weight). In the case of LH, those are A330-343X as they operate the Trent 700 on their A333s.[/quote
What is so special about the RR 700 on A330s? I thought that was a common occurance. What is the breakdown of market share from the 3 manufacturers on the A330? I thought that the A330 was pretty much Pratts last successful widebody engine, except for the recently floundering 777 venture, with the low reliability of the 4098, and weakened thrust of the 4090.
A318/19/20/21, A300, A332/3, A343/6, A388, L1011, DC-9, DC-10, MD-11, MD-80, B722, B732/3/4/5/7/8/9, B743/4/4M, B752/3, B762/3/4, B772/E/W, B788/9, F-100, CRJ-200/700/900, ERJ-135/145/175, DH-8, ATR-72, DO-328, BAE-146
 
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LTU932
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RE: Lufthansa To Announce Longhaul-order Part 2

Sat Nov 18, 2006 9:14 am

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 44):
What is so special about the RR 700 on A330s?

Nothing, I'm just stating LH's specific model type for the A333s they have in service. Plus, although I don't have precise numbers, the Trent 700 has the biggest marketshare for A330 sales, with Pratt as number 2 and GE being last.

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 44):
I thought that the A330 was pretty much Pratts last successful widebody engine

It could have been even more successful if Pratt didn't encounter problems with developing the PW4173 (I believe), which would have given the A330 another range boost. However, the PW4168A is still a very popular engine in the A330.
 
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AA777223
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RE: Lufthansa To Announce Longhaul-order Part 2

Sat Nov 18, 2006 9:55 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 45):

Gotcha! I wasn't trying to sound like an @$$, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing the improtance of something in the post. Thanks for the information.
A318/19/20/21, A300, A332/3, A343/6, A388, L1011, DC-9, DC-10, MD-11, MD-80, B722, B732/3/4/5/7/8/9, B743/4/4M, B752/3, B762/3/4, B772/E/W, B788/9, F-100, CRJ-200/700/900, ERJ-135/145/175, DH-8, ATR-72, DO-328, BAE-146
 
trex8
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RE: Lufthansa To Announce Longhaul-order Part 2

Sat Nov 18, 2006 10:14 am

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 43):
The Long Range A330 you find on a site called airliners.net, if you ever heared about it, http://www.airliners.net/info/stats.main?id=255500 nm with max passenger, 295-440 seats, 217000kg dep weight.Compare to a plane with8500 nm with max passenger, 210-330 seats, 216000kg dep weight.

those numbers aren't real world
a NW A330-323X 233K MTOW with full passsenger payload (298) can fly 4600nm, a CI A330-302 230K MTOW with full passenger payload (313) 4000nm.
If you really want to fly 5000nm you need an A332.
 
gigneil
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RE: Lufthansa To Announce Longhaul-order Part 2

Sat Nov 18, 2006 10:26 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 39):
Then, of course the A333 can fly 5500nm, but without cargo.

It definitely can't... it would have to be empty.

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 47):
a NW A330-323X 233K MTOW with full passsenger payload (298) can fly 4600nm

And also barely get off the runway.. thanks PW.

But you're quite right, 5000nm+ sectors are the domain of the 332 or 343.

Lufthansa can NOT replace the 343 with the 333 and get the performance they need on routes they operate them on currently.


NS
 
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LTU932
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RE: Lufthansa To Announce Longhaul-order Part 2

Sat Nov 18, 2006 11:03 am

5500 nm is AFAIK the max fuel range, with some payload. 4600 nm sounds more like max payload range. Didn't one of QF's A330s do a delivery flight from Toulouse to MEL or SYD nonstop once?