LHStarAlliance
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Lufthansa And The 777

Sat Nov 18, 2006 11:16 pm

Hello ,

I´ve been reading for about 1 year A.net , and I have today decided to join this great community , I hope to have a pleasant time discussing with you.

To the Topic :

As everybody has seen there are many Topics about LH ordering planes the next weeks - months .

But will LH order the 777 is a faq ...

I think it´s possible , my reasons :

LH has to wait at least 8-9 years to become a 787 or a 350XWB
some 744 are yet pretty old , imagine in 8 years...
Need for expansion.

LH cant wait so much time , concurrence like BA or AF/KL are expanding , they need an Aircraft that can fly 8 years and then be easily sold in the second hand market .

I think they´ll maybe buy the 773 , there´s just the 748 that is maybe a better solution than the 773...

What do you think ?

LHStarAlliance
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na
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RE: Lufthansa And The 777

Sat Nov 18, 2006 11:29 pm

I know that LH is impressed by the positive experiences other airlines have with the 773, but I hope they go for 747-8I as it would fit far better. 773s would just rival the A346 which is already in LHs fleet, while 748s would be perfect replacements for many of their 744s, capacity growth and also an ideal aircraft to fill the huge gap between A346/773 and the A380. Looking at LH Cargo the new 747 makes more sense as well as they can´t rely only on smaller aircraft like the MD-11F and 777F there. Heard from LH Cargo they need larger aircraft to be competitive in future.
 
boeing767-300
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RE: Lufthansa And The 777

Sat Nov 18, 2006 11:58 pm

Quoting NA (Reply 1):
I know that LH is impressed by the positive experiences other airlines have with the 773

No matter how superior 77W is over A346 I doubt whether it is enough to add 77W instead of more A346.

Lufthansa have made their bed and are basically stuck with A346 as there are still many on order. Now they have to look on with envy at the likes of AF EK and in the near future SQ CX and QR who all have or will have substancial fleets of 777-300ER  wink 

No one expected the 77W to beat the A346 in operating economics. The talk early in this decade was that the A346 was expected to be superior to 77W In fact the reverse was true and upon the industry realising this the A346 as been slaughtered in the sales charts.

I doubt whether LH will get 77W but i they do it prove they really do aqire the 'best' aircraft...time will tell
 
ehho
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RE: Lufthansa And The 777

Sun Nov 19, 2006 12:01 am

LH does have the 773s competitor already, the A346. Wouldn't it be easier to order some more of them. Or is fuel burn too much of an issue? Oil prices seem to be going the right way..

Once again, welcome to A.net!
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justloveplanes
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RE: Lufthansa And The 777

Sun Nov 19, 2006 1:13 am

Quoting EHHO (Reply 3):
LH does have the 773s competitor already, the A346. Wouldn't it be easier to order some more of them. Or is fuel burn too much of an issue? Oil prices seem to be going the right way..

Maybe the A380 options are actually conversions from the future A346?
Then LH can get 77W's whose performance is worth the acquisition trouble, or the 748I. That's how other airlines (EK, etc.) seem to be handling their 340 detachments.
 
LHStarAlliance
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RE: Lufthansa And The 777

Sun Nov 19, 2006 2:31 am

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 2):
Lufthansa have made their bed and are basically stuck with A346

But LH chief Pilot said that they are thinking of ordering 773 , when they already had the 346
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DfwRevolution
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RE: Lufthansa And The 777

Sun Nov 19, 2006 2:49 am

Quoting EHHO (Reply 3):
LH does have the 773s competitor already, the A346. Wouldn't it be easier to order some more of them. Or is fuel burn too much of an issue? Oil prices seem to be going the right way..

Depends...

If fuel cost are high enough, at some point the superior fuel burn of the 773ER will justify the logistic expense of operating two fleets of aircraft. Another factor is the size of the respective fleets. If an airline operates enough of one type, economics of scale mitigates some of the cost issues of dual fleets.

Oil prices are indeed falling which works in the A346' favor. However, LH (and German firms in general) are very ecologically conscious and may not like wasting fossil fuel regardless of cost. Airbus was (still is?) prepared to offer LH fuel burn compensation payments. But as a counter-counter point, LH re-evaluated the 773ER when fuel prices were at their highest in 2004-2005, and decided to stick with the A346.

It'll be an interesting turn of events if LH does order the 773ER. Another coup for the 777LR program.
 
LHStarAlliance
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RE: Lufthansa And The 777

Sun Nov 19, 2006 3:00 am

Operating 773 & 346 would not be a problem as all A/C are maintained by LH Technik and they maintain many 777 .

Are Pilots that fly 747 allowed to fly 777 without extra trainings?
If not this could be a Problem ...
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wingman
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RE: Lufthansa And The 777

Sun Nov 19, 2006 4:13 am

In the LH long haul order thread there's an LH insider who claims that LH view the 777 as a low quality aircraft, that it is less safe and comfortable than the 340 series. LH passengers hate 2-5-2 seating and the comfort of a plane is detrmined by the manufacturer so my guess is that Germans won't even board such a plane and would leave LH in droves. In light of these revelations whcich must come as a shock to the airline community, I'd say the 777 hasn't a chance.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Lufthansa And The 777

Sun Nov 19, 2006 4:43 am

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 7):
Are Pilots that fly 747 allowed to fly 777 without extra trainings?

There is no common type rating between the 747 and 777 so additional training is required.

It requires 14 training days to convert from a 744 to a 777. It requires 22 days if the crew has no experience in a Boeing glass cockpit.

If LH decided to operate the 777, flight crew training would not be a significant issue...

Quoting Wingman (Reply 8):
In the LH long haul order thread there's an LH insider who claims that LH view the 777 as a low quality aircraft, is less safe and comfortable than the 340 series.

I can't imagine how LH came to that conclusion. Especially considering the hiccups LH faced with A346 EIS and the blade-rubbing issue on the Trent 500...

While "comfort" is subjective, what can't be denied are simple facts that:

- The 777 has maintained a significant advantage in dispatch reliability over more than a decade of revenue service.
- The 777 has required fewer AD than the A330/A340
- More 777 twinjets reach their intended destination than A340 quadjets.

Quoting Wingman (Reply 8):
LH passengers hate 2-5-2 seating and the comfort of a plane is detrmined by the manufacturer so my guess is that Germans won't even board such a plane and would leave LH in droves.

The comfort of the aircraft is determined by the cabin that LH decides to fit. Boeing has little influence on cabin comfort other than the fact that they chose a 240" fuselage diameter.

As for Germans hating 2+5+2, that would conclude the 787/A350 debate rather quickly...  Yeah sure

Quoting Wingman (Reply 8):
In light of these revelations whcich must come as a shock to the airline community, I'd say the 777 hasn't a chance.

It's shocking because it's practically unbelievable that an airline like LH would operate with assumptions that are frankly ass-backwards.
 
Mir
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RE: Lufthansa And The 777

Sun Nov 19, 2006 4:50 am

Quoting Wingman (Reply 8):
LH passengers hate 2-5-2 seating and the comfort of a plane is detrmined by the manufacturer so my guess is that Germans won't even board such a plane and would leave LH in droves. In light of these revelations whcich must come as a shock to the airline community, I'd say the 777 hasn't a chance.

LH could always fit a 3-3-3 interior.

-Mir
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LHStarAlliance
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RE: Lufthansa And The 777

Sun Nov 19, 2006 5:15 am

Quoting Wingman (Reply 8):
In the LH long haul order thread there's an LH insider who claims that LH view the 777 as a low quality aircraft, that it is less safe and comfortable than the 340 series. LH passengers hate 2-5-2 seating and the comfort of a plane is detrmined by the manufacturer so my guess is that Germans won't even board such a plane and would leave LH in droves. In light of these revelations whcich must come as a shock to the airline community, I'd say the 777 hasn't a chance.

I think this is exaggerated , big successful airlines fly the 777 , why should LH can´t . AF fly both and has good yields.

The 773 isn´t noisier or less comfortable than the 340
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DfwRevolution
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RE: Lufthansa And The 777

Sun Nov 19, 2006 5:21 am

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 11):
The 773 isn´t noisier or less comfortable than the 340

Actually many do find the A340 cabin noticeably quieter than the 777. That leaves the seating configuration, but that's a topic you can debate to death...

IMO, the statement provided by Wingman lacks a factual base and would suggest that it comes from someone not responsible for fleet planning at all...
 
LHStarAlliance
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RE: Lufthansa And The 777

Sun Nov 19, 2006 5:43 am

It´s ridiculous the 777 is one of the best selling A/C , the airlines would buy 340´s if the 777 wouldn´t be better .
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na
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RE: Lufthansa And The 777

Sun Nov 19, 2006 5:46 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 12):
Actually many do find the A340 cabin noticeably quieter than the 777.

I fully agree with this point. The A340 ist exceptionelly quiet.
 
LHStarAlliance
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RE: Lufthansa And The 777

Sun Nov 19, 2006 5:55 am

Maybe , but I doubt LH chooses an aircraft of the Noise Level.

To be honest I´ve never flown in a 777  Big grin But I´m looking forward to fly one ...
But my Brother has flown in a 777 and said that it´s really more Spacefully and Comfortable . I´m speaking about the 343 ... I like the 346 !
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ZKNBX
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RE: Lufthansa And The 777

Sun Nov 19, 2006 6:26 am

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 11):
The 773 isn´t noisier or less comfortable than the 340

340 is a quieter ride in economy. Up front, fairly similar.
 
LHStarAlliance
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RE: Lufthansa And The 777

Sun Nov 19, 2006 6:34 am

Well, maybe the 343 is quieter , but the economics ofthe 773 are better .

What do you think of a 777F order , LH said some Months-Years ago that it´s to expensive .

I think if they buy some other B LR jets they could get a special offer of B ...

Could we see a LHCargo 777 ...?
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columba
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RE: Lufthansa And The 777

Sun Nov 19, 2006 7:07 am

Quoting Wingman (Reply 8):
In the LH long haul order thread there's an LH insider who claims that LH view the 777 as a low quality aircraft, that it is less safe and comfortable than the 340 series. LH passengers hate 2-5-2 seating and the comfort of a plane is detrmined by the manufacturer so my guess is that Germans won't even board such a plane and would leave LH in droves. In light of these revelations whcich must come as a shock to the airline community, I'd say the 777 hasn't a chance.

Sorry this is complete nonsense. LH has stated that they are very impressed with the 777-300ER.

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 17):
What do you think of a 777F order , LH said some Months-Years ago that it´s to expensive .

I think if they buy some other B LR jets they could get a special offer of B ...

Could we see a LHCargo 777 ...?

It is being evaluated together with the 747-8F but they said they only want aircraft type with cargo. The A380F is out. I guess we will see 777F and 777-300ER or 747-8Fs and 747-8Is.
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dutchjet
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RE: Lufthansa And The 777

Sun Nov 19, 2006 7:23 am

There have been rumors, on and off over the past couple of years, that LH was taking a very serious look at the 777 family of airplanes, some rumors focused on the 773ER and other rumors have been about 772F aircraft. Insiders suggested that at times, the discussions were very serious.....now, much of the attention is on whether LH will order the 748I to bridge the gap between their A346 and A380 fleets, LH is a long time 747 operator and could look to the 748I, time will tell.

Many have dismissed the LH and the 773ER rumors, claiming that LH would ""never"" fly the A346 and 773ER side by side. While it is true that the A346 and 773ER are in the same category and it would probably not be optimal for LH to fly both the 773ER and A346....I do think that most of us have learned to "never say never" when it comes to discussing airlines and their fleets, just about anything can happen.

A couple of things to consider:

1. When I first heard about LH and a potential 773ER order, the thinking was that the 773ER would first supplement the LH longhaul fleet and then, over time, replace LH's A343 fleet and eventually help replace the 744s. LH would move to an A333/A346/773ER/A380 longhaul fleet - actually, a rather effecient mix of aircraft. A346s would be used for high capacity longhaul route up to about 10 hours and duration and the 773ERs would focus on the very longhaul segments.

2. While many think that LH wants to go all Airbus, nothing can be further from the truth. LH, like most major airlines, very much wants Boeing and Airbus to survive and prosper so that the two manufacturers will continue to develop new technology and will compete for each and every order. LH will order Boeing......we dont know which model, but more Boeings are in LH's future.

3. And, the 773ER is one hell of an airplane....the 773ER has proven to be a very effective asset on longhaul routes and the type has met and/or exceeded its peformance goals. You can be sure that LH is very much aware of just how good the 773ER is. As for the A346, LH seems satisfied with the type (if there werent, they would not have placed a followup order) but most agree that the 773ER is the class leader......and, I have never heard or read anything credible that has suggested that LH would replace their A346s with 773ERs, LH is (has) looked at the 773ER as an expansion airplane and/or as an eventual A343 and/or 744 replacement.

4. LH needs big airplanes with lots of seats to operate out of its main hub at FRA......as traffic grows, LH is facing limitations at its very important FRA hub and adding more and more frequencies, especially on longer haul flights, is not a practical option due to operational and airport limitations. The 773ER is one of the best choices for highdemand longhaul routes.

In summary, its unclear if LH will ever order the 773ER, but it certainly could happen.
 
LHStarAlliance
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RE: Lufthansa And The 777

Sun Nov 19, 2006 7:24 am

Quoting Columba (Reply 18):
or 747-8Fs and 747-8Is

What A/C has better Economics , I presume the 748 as it´s more or less a new generation aircraft...
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CJAContinental
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RE: Lufthansa And The 777

Sun Nov 19, 2006 7:28 am

Logically, one would expect lufthansa, whom has a fair unbiased mixture of both boeing and airbus aircraft, to select the most cost efficient for their needs, while maintaining good service.
Thus, because the 777-300ER is more efficient, it should be such that Lufthansa would select this range. However, there are perfectly plausible explanantions as to why this is not true:

1. The 777-300ER was developed just before the A340-600 program was taking shape. Lufthansa may have thought that airbus would wait for the stats on the 777-300ER, and produce something superior.

2. Airbus may have offered the A340-600 at reduced costs to lufthansa, ouweighing the longterm investment savings.

3. Airbus has large german connections in terms of business, and may have been under indirect pressure from various powers.

It is more innefficient for Lufthansa to purchase the 777-300ER, because they already have the A340-600's to meet their demands.

This all relates to the 787/A350 sector. Lufthansa are interested in this sector. However, lufthansa has said it will wait for the developments to progress further to make a decision. They do not want to make the same mistake again.
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LHStarAlliance
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RE: Lufthansa And The 777

Sun Nov 19, 2006 7:30 am

And what about :

773 for 343 replacement

748 for gap between 346/773 and 380
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LHStarAlliance
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RE: Lufthansa And The 777

Sun Nov 19, 2006 7:33 am

Quoting CJAContinental (Reply 21):
This all relates to the 787/A350 sector. Lufthansa are interested in this sector. However, lufthansa has said it will wait for the developments to progress further to make a decision. They do not want to make the same mistake again.

But to get this A/C´s they´ve to wait until 2013-14 , so they need a good A/C for 7-8 year which can be sold then good in the second hand market when they get 787/350xwb
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CJAContinental
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RE: Lufthansa And The 777

Sun Nov 19, 2006 7:35 am

I agree very much, out of the 777F, and the 747-8, the 747-8 would be much more efficient.
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LHStarAlliance
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RE: Lufthansa And The 777

Sun Nov 19, 2006 7:46 am

Quoting CJAContinental (Reply 24):
I agree very much, out of the 777F, and the 747-8, the 747-8 would be much more efficient.

So the Future LH fleet may be :

333/346/773/380

333/346/748/380

And 789/788/783 // 3510/359 replacing then 333 777 346...
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CJAContinental
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RE: Lufthansa And The 777

Sun Nov 19, 2006 8:03 am

The future fleet would probably be:

333/346/748F/380

789/359 replacing 333.

I don't really see the 777-3. However, I could be very wrong, for lufthansa could want to expand vastly on routes with this range, and capacity, in which they may very well purchase the 777-3. Evidence of this is that they have implemented there newest 346 on there FRA-IAH route, replacing a smaller 343 that was previousely on that route.
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CJAContinental
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RE: Lufthansa And The 777

Sun Nov 19, 2006 8:12 am

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 25):
333/346/748/380

They could purchase the 747-8 to bridge the gap, though the amount would depend on how much the A/C would need to cover. (Anywhere from 2-12 A/C probably)
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DfwRevolution
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RE: Lufthansa And The 777

Sun Nov 19, 2006 8:24 am

Quoting CJAContinental (Reply 21):
1. The 777-300ER was developed just before the A340-600 program was taking shape.

No, the 773ER was launched about 3 years after the A346 was launched. The A346 was introduced into revenue service about 2 years before the 773ER as well...

Quoting CJAContinental (Reply 21):
Lufthansa may have thought that airbus would wait for the stats on the 777-300ER, and produce something superior.

Again, your chronology is off: LH ordered the A346 in December 1997, while Boeing was not prepared to launch the 773ER until mid-2000.

Remember that Boeing had considerable doubt that engines like the Ge90-115B could be developed in time to compete with the heavier A345/A346. In 1997, I believe Boeing was still considering a semi-trijet in which the APU would also provide take-off thrust. Not exactly an elegant solution...

Also remember that when the 777-300X was launched (later became -300/ER), it wasn't expected to have 7,800 nm of range. Even when EK placed their first order in 2003, they concurrently ordered the A346HGW because it had more than 500 nm of range.

Only late in development did it become apparant that Boeing estimates were very conservative and the 773ER exceeded expectation.

Quoting CJAContinental (Reply 21):
2. Airbus may have offered the A340-600 at reduced costs to lufthansa, ouweighing the longterm investment savings.

As a launch customer of the type, that is very likely...
 
CJAContinental
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RE: Lufthansa And The 777

Sun Nov 19, 2006 8:33 am

Damm, I feel like an arse, I was certain of the opposite, but thanks for that update. Sorry for that info LHstar alliance. Though Dfw, do you think theres a chance of lufthansa 777's at frankfurt?
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DfwRevolution
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RE: Lufthansa And The 777

Sun Nov 19, 2006 8:48 am

Quoting CJAContinental (Reply 29):
Damm, I feel like an arse, I was certain of the opposite, but thanks for that update

Eh.. live, learn, cheat with Wikipedia..  Wink

Quoting CJAContinental (Reply 29):
Though Dfw, do you think theres a chance of lufthansa 777's at frankfurt?

I agree with Dutchjet's assessment.

It could happen, and I would like to see it happen, but I'm not holding my breath...
 
gbfra
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RE: Lufthansa And The 777

Sun Nov 19, 2006 8:49 am

# 29

In this case you might not see a B748 in Lufthansa colours...I fear you have to make a choice here.

[Edited 2006-11-19 00:50:18]
The fundamental things apply as time goes by
 
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Stitch
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RE: Lufthansa And The 777

Sun Nov 19, 2006 8:57 am

The 787-9 would make an excellent A343 replacement as it has a cabin floor area almost identical to the A343 (and A333) while offering superior range, ( believe) superior underfloor payload, and superior operating economics. Also, with LH's A343 fleet being relatively young, a replacement window beginning in 2011-2012 would not be a hindrance.

I agree with those who say if the 773ER enters the fleet, it is for both expansion and initial replacement of the 744 fleet (along with the A388, which will probably see add-on orders). Right now the A346's are flown in a two-class "high density" configuration, though I understand some are being converted to or being delivered as a three class config. A 773ER could serve better as the three-class bird for the really long-haul runs (where her better fuel burn advantage is maximized over the A346), leaving the A346 to serve the long-haul premium missions in three-class config (no middles in Business and Economy are important here), as well as the high-density two-class medium and "short" haul services.

Then, the A3510 becomes an option down the road to replace the A346 fleet as well as supplement the 773ER fleet as LH waits to see what Y3 brings to the table around 2020. And the 787-9/787-10/A359 become options to replace the A333 fleet.
 
gbfra
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RE: Lufthansa And The 777

Sun Nov 19, 2006 9:03 am

Stitch

So you do not see LH ordering the B748 although LH pushed Boeing hard to come up with this bird?
The fundamental things apply as time goes by
 
CJAContinental
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RE: Lufthansa And The 777

Sun Nov 19, 2006 9:11 am

Quoting Gbfra (Reply 31):
In this case you might not see a B748 in Lufthansa colours...I fear you have to make a choice here.

If lufthansa are interested in a new cargo solution, then i think the 747-8 is likely. However, The three class capacity of a typical 777-3ER is around 365, and the three class configuration of a 747-8 is 467. In my opinion, that is a relatively large difference. So, it can be said that they may be able to use the aircraft at the same time, though on different routes.

However, i agree that one aircraft must be chosen, though that just depends on Lufthansa's needs. I see the 777-3 on the same role as the 346, and the 747-8 as the gap filler between the 346, and the 380.
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Stitch
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RE: Lufthansa And The 777

Sun Nov 19, 2006 9:11 am

Quoting Gbfra (Reply 33):
So you do not see LH ordering the B748 although LH pushed Boeing hard to come up with this bird?

I believe it depends on what LH's traffic pattern models spit out. A mixed A388/773 fleet would cover the "highs" and the "lows" of the traffic currently handled by 744s, but if the "middle" is pretty wide, then such a fleet would be insufficient and a mixed A388/748/A346 fleet could be the answer.

I do believe it will be one or the other when it comes to the 748I and 773ER for LH. I also believe LH cannot wait for the A3510 to EIS, so they will need one or the other of the Boeing planes.
 
ZRH
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RE: Lufthansa And The 777

Sun Nov 19, 2006 9:13 am

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 22):
773 for 343 replacement

Why? The 343 are not too old, they can wait for the 787/350 to replace the 343.
 
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RE: Lufthansa And The 777

Sun Nov 19, 2006 9:43 am

Quoting ZRH (Reply 36):
Why? The 343 are not too old, they can wait for the 787/350 to replace the 343.

They do have a few A340-311s which could, just could, be replaced in the short term, but personally, if the 77W is ordered, they'll be for expansion and maybe as partial 74M replacement (the 74Ms, which currently fly in an all PAX configuration, could then be subleased or sold to LCAG and converted into full freighters). If the 77W is to replace some A343s, then it's more for shifting the A343 to MUC and operate longhauls out of FRA with just A333s, A346s, 744s and 77W for the time being and operating only A333s, A343s and A346s out of MUC.
 
jfk777
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RE: Lufthansa And The 777

Sun Nov 19, 2006 11:05 am

Lufthansa's world of choices. There are really no bad choices here, LH traditionally wanted four engines to their planes but with the A330-300 have realized the economics of two over the pond. 773ER having wider cabins are better long haulers then the A346, LH would be smart to join that club and farm out the A346 to other Star airlines like SAA & SWISS. 748 would due wonders for LH too, they could replace the current 744 fleet wth the combination of A380 & 748.
 
LHStarAlliance
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RE: Lufthansa And The 777

Sun Nov 19, 2006 6:05 pm

The Question is , Is the 4 engined 748 more economic than the 2 engined 773 ...
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LHStarAlliance
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RE: Lufthansa And The 777

Sun Nov 19, 2006 6:08 pm

Quoting ZRH (Reply 36):
Why? The 343 are not too old, they can wait for the 787/350 to replace the 343.

to expand , and have better economics , sure they can fly the 343 8 years more but If you get a good offer of B , why not expand...
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LHStarAlliance
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RE: Lufthansa And The 777

Sun Nov 19, 2006 6:18 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 35):
I also believe LH cannot wait for the A3510 to EIS, so they will need one or the other of the Boeing planes.

This is sure they can´t wait´til 2013 , they need one " time gap " A/C

How long must they wait until the 773 or the748 comes ?
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ZKNBX
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RE: Lufthansa And The 777

Sun Nov 19, 2006 6:42 pm

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 39):
Is the 4 engined 748 more economic than the 2 engined 773 ...

That's a loaded question, or rather, a somewhat misguided one. It will depend on a combo of purchase price from Boeing, tech support package and the predominant mission (range / payload / pax / freight) that the a/c is likely to be deployed on. It may be that on the surface the 77W (I presume you mean, rather than the 773) looks more economical, when in fact the 748i may ultimately do the job better all things considered, additional seats included).

This is certainly going to be an interesting decision.
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: Lufthansa And The 777

Sun Nov 19, 2006 6:47 pm

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 2):
I doubt whether LH will get 77W but i they do it prove they really do aqire the 'best' aircraft.

It all depends on the overall costs of such a move. If it's cheaper to continue with the A346, LH will do it. The "best" solution is the most economic one.

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 2):
Lufthansa have made their bed and are basically stuck with A346 as there are still many on order.

No, only four more.

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 2):
Now they have to look on with envy at the likes of AF EK and in the near future SQ CX and QR who all have or will have substancial fleets of 777-300ER

That alone won't reduce demand for LH seats.

Quoting Justloveplanes (Reply 4):
That's how other airlines (EK, etc.) seem to be handling their 340 detachments.

Yes, they have all had significantly smaller A340 fleets than LH.

Quoting Wingman (Reply 8):
In the LH long haul order thread there's an LH insider who claims that LH view the 777 as a low quality aircraft, that it is less safe and comfortable than the 340 series.LH passengers hate 2-5-2 seating and the comfort of a plane is detrmined by the manufacturer so my guess is that Germans won't even board such a plane and would leave LH in droves. In light of these revelations whcich must come as a shock to the airline community, I'd say the 777 hasn't a chance.

This is pure nonsense - all those who believe that have no clue about Germany and Lufthansa. "Insider talk"?  rotfl 

Quoting CJAContinental (Reply 21):
3. Airbus has large german connections in terms of business, and may have been under indirect pressure from various powers.

That's not how LH works.

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 38):
LH traditionally wanted four engines to their planes but with the A330-300 have realized the economics of two over the pond.

LH operated A310 transatlantic services in the early 1990s already.

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 38):
773ER having wider cabins are better long haulers then the A346, LH would be smart to join that club and farm out the A346 to other Star airlines like SAA & SWISS.

They would be smart if they save costs in the end - which I doubt.


PH
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johnnybgoode
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RE: Lufthansa And The 777

Sun Nov 19, 2006 9:23 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 19):
As for the A346, LH seems satisfied with the type (if there werent, they would not have placed a followup order)

i disagree. LH was extremely unhappy with the dispatch reliability of the aircraft when if first entered service with LH. also, LH got an extremely sweet deal when they ordered 7 additional aircraft. on top of that, those birds with the first RR engined-aircraft in the current fleet and LH Technik has a partnership with RR. I think this further swayed the decision towards the A346 (the 773ER only comes with GE engines, right?)
besides, there are economies of scale when growing the existing fleet instead of introducing a new, but very similar type.

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 22):
773 for 343 replacement

now that would be quite a jump in capacity! the 773 comes closer to the 744 than to the A343 so i doubt the 773 would be replacing any A343s, most definitely not on a 1:1 basis, as LH is a very conservatively growing airline (despite accelerating growth in recent months).

Quoting Stitch (Reply 32):
The 787-9 would make an excellent A343 replacement as it has a cabin floor area almost identical to the A343

now that i can subscribe to!

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 39):
The Question is , Is the 4 engined 748 more economic than the 2 engined 773 ...

given that the 748 employs 787 technology, has got the same engines, and is larger than 773, it most likely will be economic when it comes to seat costs.

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 40):
to expand , and have better economics , sure they can fly the 343 8 years more but If you get a good offer of B , why not expand...

it's not only about a current offer by Boeing. what would LH do with its A343s? give them all to LX? No, they can't take that many and if LH wants to drop them (do they really want to that in the near future? i have my doubts) they would not want to keep them in the wider LH group fleet.

LH would have to find a place for them. but despite the recent drop in fuel prices, the common conception is that four-engined aircraft are gas-guzzlers and no one wants to take them, or only at cheap prices. I'm quite sure the second-hand market for A343s is not at its best right now. imho, LH would not be able to extract good prices from letting go of their A343 fleet in the foreseeable future. this has to be factored into the overall deal.

coming back to the 773 vs. A346 topic: the 773 may haul more cargo than the 744, is the correct? does still has the same range as the 744? if yes, someone please clarify, than there is the ideal 744 replacement, unless LH will indeed opt for the 748. i think that the 773 and the 748 or seriously considered by LH, but i don't think we'll see both.
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LHStarAlliance
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RE: Lufthansa And The 777

Sun Nov 19, 2006 9:37 pm

Quoting Johnnybgoode (Reply 44):
Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 22):
773 for 343 replacement

now that would be quite a jump in capacity! the 773 comes closer to the 744 than to the A343 so i doubt the 773 would be replacing any A343s, most definitely not on a 1:1 basis, as LH is a very conservatively growing airline (despite accelerating growth in recent months).

Expansion...
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A342
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RE: Lufthansa And The 777

Sun Nov 19, 2006 9:38 pm

Just a remark: All this has already been discussed to death.
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CJAContinental
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RE: Lufthansa And The 777

Sun Nov 19, 2006 9:42 pm

The advantages of the 773ER, in terms of engines, are that in theory, less drag and weight would be an advantage, and lower maintenance costs would be an advantage.

Are there any substantial advantages to having four engined 346/7478/388's on long haul routes, as opposed to twin engined options?
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LHStarAlliance
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RE: Lufthansa And The 777

Sun Nov 19, 2006 9:45 pm

Quoting CJAContinental (Reply 47):
Are there any substantial advantages to having four engined 346/7478/388's on long haul routes, as opposed to twin engined options?

Less seats , economics are far better with 2 engines...
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eugdog
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RE: Lufthansa And The 777

Sun Nov 19, 2006 9:53 pm

I would be amazed if LH would ever order the 777 - the political pressure to order Airbus would be enormous - it would be most humiliating if they ordered the direct competitor to an Airbus product. As I have said before the high profile nature of aviation and the considerable government investment in Airbus make it imperative that LH orders Airbus over Boeing where possible. A boeing order would seriously undermine German involvement in Airbus especially given the difficulties over the A380

Regarding comfort. The cabin of the 777 is much more spacious. The trouble with airbus is that the passenger floor is much higher up the fuselarge then the Boeing cabin in order to get more cargo space. Also the overhead lockers were not as well design as the Boeing and as such they drop down much further. Of course one could argue that 2-4-2 seating of the Airbus is better the boeing 2-5-2 but remember only one person in 9 (the person in the middle) is disadvantaged by the Boeing seating arrangement!

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