ksupilot
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Russian Aircraft And Western Airlines

Sun Nov 19, 2006 8:31 am

In the next few years what are the chances that the Russian aircraft companies will be seen in western fleets? You the RRJ which could be a nice alternative to Embraer and Bombardier. And isn't there a Russian aircraft that is similar to the 757? With Boeing halting 757 production, could this Russian counterpart get a chance at life?
What has held Russian aircraft back, from what I have read online, most passengers are pleased with them, so it is not a quality issue.
 
levg79
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RE: Russian Aircraft And Western Airlines

Sun Nov 19, 2006 10:54 am

I'd say technology is one point where Russian aircraft fall behind. Other than that, you have seen how many people do not trust Airbus simply because it is not a Boeing. Imagine a person like that having to fly Tupolev.... These are I think the only reasons why Russian aircraft are not popular in the western world.

Leo.
A mile of runway takes you to the world. A mile of highway takes you a mile.
 
irobertson
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RE: Russian Aircraft And Western Airlines

Sun Nov 19, 2006 1:06 pm

Lets try and infuse some facts in here, or at least something plausible. First of all, "people that don't trust airbus because they're not boeing" don't procure planes for airlines, they post at airliners.net all day long.

What we do know is that Russian aircraft companies are dirt poor in comparison to Boeing and Airbus. Its hard for them to sell aircraft to places like North America when they have no maintenance facilities over there and everything would have to come back to Russia for work. They don't have the money to build that infrastructure yet, so their growth is slow. The RRJ market is a good area for the Russians to focus on since they can build capital by selling to places nearby like China.

But they're already starting by offering aircraft like the IL-96M with Pratt and Whitney engines and Honeywell avionics (I'm not sure if they're still offering it since they got relatively little interest, though Transavia was apparently interested), and Tupolev offers the aforementioned 757 clone (which is isn't really) the Tu-204 series which has a few operating examples working both as passenger and cargo haulers. TNT has had at least a couple and I believe they offer them with Western engines and avionics as well.

I think that Russia could break into the market, but they need to build up their infrastructure and prove they could provide a support network that extends over the whole globe. I think that as far as "safety" goes, we should really look at how resilient the old generation Russian aircraft are, still mainline aircraft for dozens of airlines. I believe they're only getting better, but that's also an opinion.

There's a very knowledgeable member on here named Tu204 who might be able to offer some hard facts on the state of Russian aircraft designs and sales.

Cheers
Ian
 
scalebuilder
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RE: Russian Aircraft And Western Airlines

Sun Nov 19, 2006 1:34 pm

Quoting Irobertson (Reply 2):
but they need to build up their infrastructure and prove they could provide a support network that extends over the whole globe.

This is absolutely the key to the magic breakthrough and long-term success.

Quoting Irobertson (Reply 2):
I think that as far as "safety" goes, we should really look at how resilient the old generation Russian aircraft are, still mainline aircraft for dozens of airlines. I believe they're only getting better, but that's also an opinion.

I think Russian aircraft are of good and reliable design too. Just my opinion as well. They were designed to operate independently at airports with little or no ground support or infrastructure. Additionally, these aircraft had to retain the ability to land or take off from primitive airstrips in often hostile climates.

What has hurt the Russian aircraft industry is not their design, but their "lack of" knowledge and capacity in developing fuel efficient and reliable engines. In my humble opinion, this has historically been the greatest setback of the Russian aircraft industry.
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levg79
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RE: Russian Aircraft And Western Airlines

Sun Nov 19, 2006 1:49 pm

Quoting Irobertson (Reply 2):
Tupolev offers the aforementioned 757 clone (which is isn't really) the Tu-204

Why do people sometime compare TU-204 to B757? They are totally different aircraft, period.


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It's like saying that B757 is the same as A321 or DC-8 is the same as A340. Please stop comparing apples and oranges. And no, TU-154 is not the same as B727, not even close.

Leo.
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ksupilot
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RE: Russian Aircraft And Western Airlines

Sun Nov 19, 2006 1:55 pm

It is a shame that Russian aircraft are always shown as unreliable tin cans. I guess that is all left over from Cold War.

Quoting Irobertson (Reply 2):
I think that Russia could break into the market, but they need to build up their infrastructure and prove they could provide a support network that extends over the whole globe.

Definitely the key for them. One way they could also prove themselves is working with a western company, like Bombardier or Embraer.

Quoting Irobertson (Reply 2):
and Tupolev offers the aforementioned 757 clone (which is isn't really) the Tu-204 series which has a few operating examples working both as passenger and cargo haulers.

Even though it is not a "clone" it is close. If you were an airline which would you rather have, a brand new Tu-204 or a used 757. I don't see American airlines like CO or AA replacing their 757s with Tu-204s, however, some cargo airlines in the west could use it. TNT is just one example. I remember a thread awhile back after FedEx acquired some used 757s...someone asked why FedEx didn't look into the Tu-204.

Hey, with the weather conditions these aircraft endure, I wouldn't mind flying on a Russian aircraft.
 
TrijetsRMissed
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RE: Russian Aircraft And Western Airlines

Sun Nov 19, 2006 2:03 pm

Quoting Levg79 (Reply 4):
Quoting Irobertson (Reply 2):
Tupolev offers the aforementioned 757 clone (which is isn't really) the Tu-204

Why do people sometime compare TU-204 to B757? They are totally different aircraft, period.

The TU-204 looks more like the E170/190 and A319/320 series, imo.
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irobertson
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RE: Russian Aircraft And Western Airlines

Sun Nov 19, 2006 2:20 pm

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 6):

Good point. It does. Although that comparison shows a "shorter" Tu-204 (I think? Maybe there's another variant with a different number like 214 or 234 that's longer) to a 757-300. I've seen pictures of Tu-204s where I have thought of the 752, but I've also though of the A321. But you're right about the Embraer thing for sure. When I saw a TNT 204 with my own eyes at Dublin over the summer (while taxiing), I did get the impression of a Embraer nose.
 
Shinkai
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RE: Russian Aircraft And Western Airlines

Sun Nov 19, 2006 2:27 pm

If i remember correctly, FedEx do have some Russian aircrafts, though FedEx is not really a passenger-carrying airline, albeit Western.
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penguinflies
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RE: Russian Aircraft And Western Airlines

Sun Nov 19, 2006 7:10 pm

New TU-204 western equpt is something like $30 million before export taxes.

New B757, while in production, was twice that.

The export taxes, the inability for TU to provide an extensive parts network and lack of financing leads european and western airlines to go back to Airbus, Boeing, Embraer, and Bombardier. They can provide discounts, attractive financing, and support networks.
 
A388
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RE: Russian Aircraft And Western Airlines

Sun Nov 19, 2006 7:37 pm

The reason why the TU-204 is compared to the 757 is because they DO come close to each other in both size and the way they look! Levg79 showed pictures of the shorter TU-204 version and the 757-300 which are different in size but also not the right examples.

A388
 
ehho
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RE: Russian Aircraft And Western Airlines

Sun Nov 19, 2006 7:40 pm

Quoting Irobertson (Reply 2):
I'm not sure if they're still offering it since they got relatively little interest, though Transavia was apparently interested

Thanks for the interesting post, just clarifying here: I'm sure you meant Transaero?
"Get your facts first. Then you may distort them as much as you please" -- Mark Twain
 
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airbuseric
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RE: Russian Aircraft And Western Airlines

Sun Nov 19, 2006 8:14 pm

Apperently KLM is looking to the RRJ program as replacement for their current fleet of F50/70/100 aircraft. Maybe these aircraft series will just fulfill their needs, where Western companies like Bombardier and Embraer just don't have the right product. Hopefully the RRJ will get a good chance outside the Russian (related) countries.
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scalebuilder
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RE: Russian Aircraft And Western Airlines

Sun Nov 19, 2006 9:02 pm

Quoting Shinkai (Reply 8):
If i remember correctly, FedEx do have some Russian aircrafts, though FedEx is not really a passenger-carrying airline, albeit Western.

Hmm...Is this right?

I can't recall to ever have heard that Fedex has Russian birds in its fleet.
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irobertson
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RE: Russian Aircraft And Western Airlines

Mon Nov 20, 2006 2:07 am

Quoting EHHO (Reply 11):
Thanks for the interesting post, just clarifying here: I'm sure you meant Transaero?

Yes, I'm sorry, got that mixed up. Here's what A.net's database says, though it IS dated and probably not 100% accurate at this point:

"At late 1998 50 Il-96M/-96T firm orders held, including from Aeroflot (17 Il-96Ms and 3 Il-96Ts), Transaero (six Il-96Ms) and Partnairs of the Netherlands."
 
A388
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RE: Russian Aircraft And Western Airlines

Mon Nov 20, 2006 4:26 am

Quoting Scalebuilder (Reply 13):
Hmm...Is this right?

I can't recall to ever have heard that Fedex has Russian birds in its fleet.

FedEx never had Russian aircraft and still don't have them and probably will never have them. I don't know where Shinkai got that information from but obviously it is not true.

As for KL/AF ordering the Russian RRJ, I still have my doubts about this as I mentioned earlier. But who knows, I'm not the one making the decision so anything is welcome of course  Smile

A388
 
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Aeroflot777
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RE: Russian Aircraft And Western Airlines

Mon Nov 20, 2006 4:37 am

Quoting Shinkai (Reply 8):
If i remember correctly, FedEx do have some Russian aircrafts, though FedEx is not really a passenger-carrying airline, albeit Western.

That is 100% false. Why would they?? Simply illogical. Doesn't seem like it would happen int eh future either, unless something miraculous happens.

Quoting A388 (Reply 15):
I don't know where Shinkai got that information from but obviously it is not true.

Same place he gets all the rest of his ideas. Check out the non-av.

Aeroflot777
 
Shinkai
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RE: Russian Aircraft And Western Airlines

Mon Nov 20, 2006 4:45 am

Quoting Scalebuilder (Reply 13):
Hmm...Is this right?

I can't recall to ever have heard that Fedex has Russian birds in its fleet.

Apologies, I got this one wrong. But if I recall correctly, there is one US airliner that have Russian aircrafts in its fleet. Was it UPS or DHL? Or was it some Cuban airliner?

Please correct me if I'm wrong. Once again, apologies.

[Edited 2006-11-19 20:49:17]
please relax, enjoy your flight... Good Luck!!
 
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Aeroflot777
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RE: Russian Aircraft And Western Airlines

Mon Nov 20, 2006 4:54 am

Quoting Shinkai (Reply 17):
Or was it some Cuban airliner?

Cubana operates Russian airliners. The IL-96 being the newest in the fleet.

Aeroflot777
 
scalebuilder
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RE: Russian Aircraft And Western Airlines

Mon Nov 20, 2006 5:13 am

Quoting Shinkai (Reply 17):
Please correct me if I'm wrong. Once again, apologies.

Hey - that is perfectly OK. I personally believe having a wrong opinion is much better than having no opinion.

I do believe that TNT operates the Tu-204 in Europe. You may have referred to them rather than Fedex in your post.

Cheers!

Scalebuilder
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EFHK
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RE: Russian Aircraft And Western Airlines

Mon Nov 20, 2006 7:00 am

In my opinion, people in the west have way too much prejudices about Russian-built aircraft that they would actually be bought for a long time. At least in Finland there are all kinds of horror stories floating around about "how a piece of roof collapsed on landing when I was on board a SU Tu-154" etc.

I have never flown on a Russian-built aircraft myself, so I've only heard these rumours, and thus I'm not too enthusiastic about them. I've also heard the noise and seen the smoke of AN-12s and Tu-154s flying over my home. Of course they are old models so that might not be a fair comparison. And yes, I've seen MD-80s taking off too.

But the subject brings me a question, if there's nothing wrong with flying Russian-built aircraft in Russia, why do airlines such as S7 and FV replace their fleets with Western-built aircraft as fast as they can?

[Edited 2006-11-19 23:11:49]
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levg79
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RE: Russian Aircraft And Western Airlines

Mon Nov 20, 2006 7:10 am

Quoting Shinkai (Reply 8):
If i remember correctly, FedEx do have some Russian aircrafts



Quoting Shinkai (Reply 17):
Apologies, I got this one wrong. But if I recall correctly, there is one US airliner that have Russian aircrafts in its fleet. Was it UPS or DHL? Or was it some Cuban airliner?

CU is the only "western" airline operating Russian aircraft. They have probably operating each type of Russian aircraft at one point or another.


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Leo.
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tjc2
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RE: Russian Aircraft And Western Airlines

Mon Nov 20, 2006 7:35 am

I have been told in the past the Russian aircraft are extremely good, let down mostly by the engines. Can anyone elaborate?
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irobertson
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RE: Russian Aircraft And Western Airlines

Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:51 am

Quoting EFHK (Reply 20):
But the subject brings me a question, if there's nothing wrong with flying Russian-built aircraft in Russia, why do airlines such as S7 and FV replace their fleets with Western-built aircraft as fast as they can?

Finnair used to operate Russian aircraft at one time, I believe.

I'm guessing one of the reasons for the western infusion of aircraft is that due to the collapse of the Russian economy following the end of communism nearly bankrupted the Russian aviation industry. They no longer had the military or civil orders rolling in from the government, so now they're playing a very slow game of catch-up. As far as I'm aware (and if I'm wrong, please let me know), there is no modern short-medium range airliner being tabled in Russia right now. There's the RRJ (just being built), the Tu-204 series (which has been bought in small numbers), and the IL-96 (not many but they're all in service I believe). There may be others that I've forgotten about.

The most common Western airliners I see in Russian pictures are 737s, A320-series, and some A310s. There isn't a Russian equivalent of that except things like the Tu-134 and 154, and the newest best working versions of those are still flying and quite popular (think NW DC9s  Smile ), but there's also a good deal of western regional airliners available used, so they're being bought up. But they're not replacing "everything" that's Russian made in every airline. Aeroflot still has a well kept fleet of 154s that can be seen frequently in Central and Eastern Europe, and they even have some Aeroflot-Nord 134s that are all biz class I believe. Domededovo Airlines has a fair number of Russian birds in their fleet, even some rare ones like the IL-68 (semi-clone of the VC-10).

I don't know much about the engines though, except its one of the reasons you're not seeing many Russian birds in North America, how would you maintain it?
 
fvtu134
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RE: Russian Aircraft And Western Airlines

Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:11 pm

FYI, the Tu-204 Does operate for TNT, although through Air Cairo leases and TNT from what I've heard are very happy with those birds. They are modern, reliable and basically do the job. Fuel burn has come down with the most recent PS-90A2's and now approximates western engines (of current design).
The Tu-204 has also been offered with the 757's engines (RR) although I never heard of any takers.
The main problem with getting these birds flying in the west is, as mentioned before, the support network. Also I believe that anything more then a B-Check needs the bird flown into the plant in Ulyanovsk which is obviously a big objection, not to mention cost, for any cost-sensitive airline (basically everybody).
Russian manufacturers have the same aerodynamic capabilities as western manufactureres and even though they may be a bit behind on manufacturing technology, todays aviation business is a global business and the aircraft is just a shell. You can put FMS's, EGPWS, etc... on any aircraft you want.
Now if they could only get rid of some of the bureaucracy.....  Wink
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A520
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RE: Russian Aircraft And Western Airlines

Mon Nov 20, 2006 7:00 pm

Quoting KSUpilot (Thread starter):
In the next few years what are the chances that the Russian aircraft companies will be seen in western fleets?

There are thousands of them: A300/310/320/330/340. Just wait until Russia takes a majority share in EADS!  Wink
 
ehho
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RE: Russian Aircraft And Western Airlines

Mon Nov 20, 2006 7:40 pm

Quoting Irobertson (Reply 23):
Finnair used to operate Russian aircraft at one time, I believe.

Yeah, and Virgin too:

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EFHK
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RE: Russian Aircraft And Western Airlines

Mon Nov 20, 2006 11:03 pm

Quoting Irobertson (Reply 23):
Finnair used to operate Russian aircraft at one time, I believe.

I'm afraid you are mistaken here. Finnair has operated mainly Douglas, Convair, Caravelle, Boeing and Airbus aircraft, and smaller such as Saab, Fokker and ATR.

But you're correct about a good Tu-154 replacement missing in the Russian aircraft industry, I've never thought about that.
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irobertson
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RE: Russian Aircraft And Western Airlines

Tue Nov 21, 2006 1:42 am

I must be on crack. I thought I had seen an early Tupolev in Finnair colors. I must be thinking of the pictures of Aeroflot Tu-104s or 134s at Helsinki. Did the air force not have MiGs though? I know that doesn't really count but...

Yeah, those photoshop guys are good, I have one of a Finnair IL96, its pretty convincing!
 
scalebuilder
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RE: Russian Aircraft And Western Airlines

Tue Nov 21, 2006 3:22 am

Quoting EFHK (Reply 27):
Did the air force not have MiGs though? I know that doesn't really count but...

I believe the Finnish Air Force operated Migs, and they also operate (still?) Russian helicopters.

I never recall to have seen any Russian (or former Soviet) commercial aircraft in Finnair colors. I am sure Finnair have been courted by Tupolev, Ilyushin and Yakolev good many times, but neither of these design bureaus ever got a single contract with Finnair.

The only known Western airline I can ever recall to have operated Soviet passenger aircraft is the airline Aviogenex. This is a Serbian airline that operated a hybrid fleet of Tupolevs and Boeings in the 80s and early 90s. It may have shut down due to the Balkan war.
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EFHK
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RE: Russian Aircraft And Western Airlines

Tue Nov 21, 2006 3:42 am

Quoting Irobertson (Reply 28):
Did the air force not have MiGs though?



Quoting Scalebuilder (Reply 29):
I believe the Finnish Air Force operated Migs, and they also operate (still?) Russian helicopters.

Yes, Finnish Air Force still has them, though new Eurocopters have been ordered (I think) but there have been some delays with them, so the MiGs operate for the time being.

Finnish railways still has some Soviet-built train cars and locomotives in use though.

Quoting Irobertson (Reply 28):
Yeah, those photoshop guys are good, I have one of a Finnair IL96, its pretty convincing!

Well, it shouldn't be too hard to make one from the A340.  Wink
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LTU932
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RE: Russian Aircraft And Western Airlines

Tue Nov 21, 2006 3:54 am

Quoting FVTu134 (Reply 24):
The Tu-204 has also been offered with the 757's engines (RR) although I never heard of any takers.

AFAIK, the problem with RB211 powered TU-204s is that they're more expensive than the ones with the PS-90A. My guess is that this is due, and please correct me if I'm wrong, to Russian import taxes for Western components. However, I believe there are airlines which operate TU-204s with RB211s, Cairo Aviation (which even subleased at one point SU-EAF to Air Mahan in Iran), TNT and Air China Cargo are one of the few RB211 engined TU-204 operators.
 
ksupilot
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RE: Russian Aircraft And Western Airlines

Tue Nov 21, 2006 4:11 pm

I started reading on about the Sukhoi Superjet 100 (RRJ). I have to say that Sukhoi is building what looks like a beautiful aircraft. The only other aircraft like it are the E-Jets.

I think they can pull it off, I'm on the Superjet 100 website right now and it is very well done. I love the "Paint the Aircraft" section. Also, notice their target audience...several western airlines are listed...AA, DL, BA, CO. Hopefully we will see some of these airlines ordering Superjet 100s!

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