Qantas744er
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Virgin Atlantic´s 747-400´s

Mon Nov 20, 2006 6:06 am

Hello I have a question regarding the 744´s from Virgin Atlantic.

To my knowledge their MTOW is 833,000Lbs or around 377 metric tonnes.

The max. for the 747-400 is 875,000Lbs but airlines can also buy a max. MTOW of only 850,000Lbs and 833,000Lbs.

My question is, if VS still have the 833,000Lbs MTOW or if they upgraded to a higher one?

Cheers Leo
You live and you die, by the FMA
 
sevenheavy
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RE: Virgin Atlantic´s 747-400´s

Mon Nov 20, 2006 6:26 am

Hi

All of VS's B744 have a MTOW of 833,000lbs (377,842kg)

Regards
So long 701, it was nice knowing you.
 
flydreamliner
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RE: Virgin Atlantic´s 747-400´s

Mon Nov 20, 2006 6:53 am

What is the motivation for an airline to purchase a lower MTOW on an aircraft such a 744...
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
LAXintl
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RE: Virgin Atlantic´s 747-400´s

Mon Nov 20, 2006 6:59 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 2):
What is the motivation for an airline to purchase a lower MTOW on an aircraft such a 744...

Very simple  dollarsign   dollarsign 

Besides the initial purchase cost, things such as landing/overflight fees are dependent on aircraft weight.

If one does not need the higher weights operationally, there really is no reason to purchase the added weight which will simply continue to be a needless financial burden.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
XXXX10
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RE: Virgin Atlantic´s 747-400´s

Mon Nov 20, 2006 7:01 am

I would imagine that if VS do not operate their 747-40s to the maximum range, there is no benefit in having the highest MTOW version.

The lighter version would use less fuel and have lower maintenance costs. I'm not sure if navigation and handling charges are also based on weight.

On the other end of the scale I beleive QF are always looking for the high groos weight versions as range is more important to them.
 
Qantas744er
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RE: Virgin Atlantic´s 747-400´s

Mon Nov 20, 2006 7:06 am

Quoting SevenHeavy (Reply 1):

All of VS's B744 have a MTOW of 833,000lbs (377,842kg)

Thanks! thats just what i was looking for!

Quoting XXXX10 (Reply 4):
On the other end of the scale I beleive QF are always looking for the high groos weight versions as range is more important to them.

Correct.. QF have the max MTOW for all of their 744´s except for the 3 ex asiana and malaysian planes which have the second highest option.

Cheers Leo
You live and you die, by the FMA
 
Rj111
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RE: Virgin Atlantic´s 747-400´s

Mon Nov 20, 2006 7:11 am

Aren't these all paper ratings anyway?
 
Qantas744er
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RE: Virgin Atlantic´s 747-400´s

Mon Nov 20, 2006 7:18 am

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 6):
Aren't these all paper ratings anyway?

Correct Big grin there is no structural change made to the aircraft, for example delta airlines and their 777´s they just recently bought the highest MTOW from boeing and so their aircraft without any phsycal change now offer max. MTOW

Cheers Leo
You live and you die, by the FMA
 
jfk777
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RE: Virgin Atlantic´s 747-400´s

Mon Nov 20, 2006 7:21 am

Many Virgin 744 operate to the USA, California and the east coast are the two popular destinations. Since these 744 don't fly 14 hours flights, mostly 7 to JFK and 11 to LAX they only need the base 744 take off weight. Qantas to Australia has some 744's with nearly 900,000 pounds.
 
Qantas744er
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RE: Virgin Atlantic´s 747-400´s

Mon Nov 20, 2006 7:52 am

So the planes dont have stab tanks or is that not removed?

Cheers Leo
You live and you die, by the FMA
 
LAXintl
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RE: Virgin Atlantic´s 747-400´s

Mon Nov 20, 2006 10:08 am

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 6):
Aren't these all paper ratings anyway?



Quoting Qantas744ER (Reply 9):
So the planes dont have stab tanks or is that not removed?

Not necessarily only a paper issue.

While I am not familiar with the Virgin aircraft, several 744 operators including BA have what is know as "744 Lite's" which do have physical changes including no tail trim tanks and lightened landing gear over higher gross weight 744s.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
1stfl94
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RE: Virgin Atlantic´s 747-400´s

Mon Nov 20, 2006 11:01 am

BA's 744 ''Lite's'' came with other modifications, for example there was no crew rest area and some other changes, however I think these have been modified to be the same as the rest of BA's 744s
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: Virgin Atlantic´s 747-400´s

Mon Nov 20, 2006 12:41 pm

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 8):
Qantas to Australia has some 744's with nearly 900,000 pounds.

These are 744ER birds which are different again... they have a higher MTOW and are physically different from other 744
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Qantas744er
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RE: Virgin Atlantic´s 747-400´s

Mon Nov 20, 2006 5:54 pm

Can anyone tell me if hey have the trim tanks?

Cheers Leo
You live and you die, by the FMA
 
satx
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RE: Virgin Atlantic´s 747-400´s

Mon Nov 20, 2006 6:22 pm

Is there any way an airline could get busted for using higher gross weights than they had purchased? Who would know?
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ZKNBX
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RE: Virgin Atlantic´s 747-400´s

Mon Nov 20, 2006 6:30 pm

Quoting Qantas744ER (Reply 7):
Correct there is no structural change made to the aircraft, for example delta airlines and their 777´s they just recently bought the highest MTOW from boeing and so their aircraft without any phsycal change now offer max. MTOW

Thanks for that. Glad you made it clear. NEW QUESTION:

HKG-LHR is quite long... how does this affect VS yields with the lower max weights?
 
Qantas744er
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RE: Virgin Atlantic´s 747-400´s

Mon Nov 20, 2006 6:42 pm

Quoting ZKNBX (Reply 15):
HKG-LHR is quite long... how does this affect VS yields with the lower max weights?

Not a Problem for VS, because they use the a346 on that flight and not the 744

Cheers Leo
You live and you die, by the FMA
 
Qantas744er
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RE: Virgin Atlantic´s 747-400´s

Mon Nov 20, 2006 7:04 pm

looking at some VS cockpit shots i noticed that the VS 744's have 16 fuel pumps switches + 2 crossfeed pumps. So that is just as much as the max. MTOW 744's have. Meaning they do still have stab trim tanks.. but its just rare that they are needed to be fueled up.

Cheers leo
You live and you die, by the FMA
 
LHR777
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RE: Virgin Atlantic´s 747-400´s

Mon Nov 20, 2006 7:37 pm

Quoting 1stfl94 (Reply 11):
BA's 744 ''Lite's'' came with other modifications, for example there was no crew rest area and some other changes, however I think these have been modified to be the same as the rest of BA's 744s

No, we still have the 747-436 Lite's, as well as the 747-436 MAXI (higher max TOW). I believe the Lite's modifications are only in the cabin, with crew-rest being installed. They still don't have HST fuel. (FYI - HST = Horizontal Stabilizer Tank, more commonly referred to as 'Stab tank')

We only use Stab Tank on fuel loads over 150,000KG. Then we have to split the fuel in accordance with the weight and balance manual, depending on the specific gravity of the fuel.
 
MCOflyer
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RE: Virgin Atlantic´s 747-400´s

Tue Nov 21, 2006 1:05 am

I believe VS 744's operate on trans atlantic runs b/c this is a perfect a/c for these runs. We, at MCO, see 3 a day (if i'm wrong, please correct me). I believe the A340 hasd taken ovber the runs to asia, australia, and far east destinations that used to be served by the 744. Can anyone at VS confirm this?

MCOflyer
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sevenheavy
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RE: Virgin Atlantic´s 747-400´s

Tue Nov 21, 2006 1:29 am

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 19):
I believe VS 744's operate on trans atlantic runs b/c this is a perfect a/c for these runs. We, at MCO, see 3 a day (if i'm wrong, please correct me). I believe the A340 hasd taken ovber the runs to asia, australia, and far east destinations that used to be served by the 744. Can anyone at VS confirm this?

VS currently operate all B744 across the atlantic to SFO, LAS, MIA, MCO, JFK and the caribbean. This changes with seasons and B744 also operate to LAX, BOS and EWR.

From Dec the B744 will be used for the peak season runs to JNB as well. this is about the most demanding route they operate on (although really only on the return leg) due to a relatively long block time, and performance restrictions out of JNB.

VS did briefly operate B744 to HKG during 2001/2002. This was slightly longer still, but even then it could (with almost no exceptions) be operated without any form of penalty.

The B744 has always proven to be ideal across the atlantic for VS due to its high capacity. The A346 are generally reserved for routes where their awesome cargo carrying capabilities offset the lower seating capacity. That said, VS has always been very flexible with route/aircraft combinations and constantly re-evaluates. In previous winters B744 have also been seen in LOS and CPT for that very reason.

regards
So long 701, it was nice knowing you.
 
VSCaptain
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RE: Virgin Atlantic´s 747-400´s

Tue Nov 21, 2006 1:33 am

I think that is the case, the only exception will be Maritious later next year.
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LAXintl
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RE: Virgin Atlantic´s 747-400´s

Tue Nov 21, 2006 1:47 am

Quoting SATX (Reply 14):
Is there any way an airline could get busted for using higher gross weights than they had purchased? Who would know?

For starters when people say its a "paper" change, this at the very least also includes software changes and also sometimes depending on the engine/airframe combo some engine tweaks also.

As far as flying at higher weights then purchased, besides this being illegal as each aircraft is certified by manufactures and national authorities for certain weights, with the world of digital data any such overweight operation would be quite obvious and leave a long trail.
Today's aircraft record and often transmit all types of parameters, from ops and maintenance ACARS messages, flight recorders, FOQA data, engine trending downloads, etc... which could all give such unauthorised overweight operations away in no time.

You'd be better trying to do with with and old non wired 707, then anything modern flying today.
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jacobin777
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RE: Virgin Atlantic´s 747-400´s

Tue Nov 21, 2006 1:53 am

Quoting SevenHeavy (Reply 20):
The B744 has always proven to be ideal across the atlantic for VS due to its high capacity. The A346 are generally reserved for routes where their awesome cargo carrying capabilities offset the lower seating capacity. That said, VS has always been very flexible with route/aircraft combinations and constantly re-evaluates. In previous winters B744 have also been seen in LOS and CPT for that very reason.

Does VS bring the A346 to LAX on a seasonal basis or is it year round?

"Up the Irons!"
 
LAXintl
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RE: Virgin Atlantic´s 747-400´s

Tue Nov 21, 2006 2:57 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 23):
Does VS bring the A346 to LAX on a seasonal basis or is it year round?

Currently both daily flights are with the A346.
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jacobin777
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RE: Virgin Atlantic´s 747-400´s

Tue Nov 21, 2006 3:26 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 24):

Currently both daily flights are with the A346.

Thanks... Smile
"Up the Irons!"
 
QantasA380
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RE: Virgin Atlantic´s 747-400´s

Tue Nov 21, 2006 5:24 am

So if the weights are just "paper" ratings, what's the point of having multiple versions??? Or is this somehow tied to the engine options available at each weight (ie the lighter options have less powerful engines, the heavier ones have the most powerful engines)???

Cheers...
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sevenheavy
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RE: Virgin Atlantic´s 747-400´s

Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:12 am

Quoting QantasA380 (Reply 26):
So if the weights are just "paper" ratings, what's the point of having multiple versions??? Or is this somehow tied to the engine options available at each weight (ie the lighter options have less powerful engines, the heavier ones have the most powerful engines)???

It also affects leasing costs. If you are going to fly around a B744 at its maximum certified weight limits your leasing company will charge you more than if you were using a derated weight limit. This is a big contributing factor and airlines will not pay for the extra weight unless they are sure it will be used on a regular basis.

Regards
So long 701, it was nice knowing you.
 
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Richard28
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RE: Virgin Atlantic´s 747-400´s

Tue Nov 21, 2006 7:28 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 24):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 23):
Does VS bring the A346 to LAX on a seasonal basis or is it year round?

Currently both daily flights are with the A346.

But VS7/8 normally reverts to a B744 for the summer season.
 
sevenheavy
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RE: Virgin Atlantic´s 747-400´s

Tue Nov 21, 2006 7:58 am

Quoting Richard28 (Reply 28):
But VS7/8 normally reverts to a B744 for the summer season

As it currently stands the B744 will not return to LAX. The A346 will continue to be double daily on VS007/008 VS023/024 through summer '07.

One reason is the huge increase in cargo demand to LAX over the past few years. Another is that there are now only 5 LHR based B744 left and for summer '07 these are planned to go to SFO, BOS and JFK x3.

Regards
So long 701, it was nice knowing you.
 
JAM747
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RE: Virgin Atlantic´s 747-400´s

Tue Nov 21, 2006 9:48 am

Is there any chance that Virgin will order any 747-8I ? Maybe a small sub fleet to fit in between the A340 and A 380? Do they have any routes where the A340 is not enough capacity and only warrants a 747 size?