jeckPDX
Posts: 250
Joined: Sun Nov 16, 2003 6:12 am

Need Historical Information On National Airlines

Mon Nov 20, 2006 7:33 am

What were that dates that national airlines operated from-to? I remember flying them as a young boy. Also, IIRC there was a second iteration of national airlines serving las vegas in the late 90s. What became of this national as well? On a side topic how many iterations of braniff an pan am were there after the original closed its doors. Sorry if the questions have been asked repeatedly in the past but I am curious. Thanks much

JeckPDX
"Beer is proof that God Loves us and wanted People to be Happy" - Ben Franklin
 
BrettFromCLT
Posts: 106
Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 2:43 pm

Need Historical Information On National Airlines

Mon Nov 20, 2006 7:49 am

Hey JeckPDX,

The first National was around from 1934 until 1980 when Pan Am bought them. The partially casino funded version was started in 1999 and went bust in 2002.

Cool,

Brett
 
PanAm747
Posts: 4713
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 4:46 am

Need Historical Information On National Airlines

Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:14 am

Quoting from "Classic American Airlines" by Geza Szurovy:

Quote:
:On October 15, 1934, National Airlines System's two Ryan monoplanes officially started daily service from St. Pete(rsburg) to Daytona Beach via Tampa, Lakeland, and Orlando, to feed Eastern's north-south air mail route running along the east coast.

If memory serves, the name "National Airlines" disappeared officially on January 1, 1980, when the airline was officially folded into Pan Am.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © AirNikon
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © TriplET



The earliest picture in the a.net database is from July 18, 1999. I would imagine that the reincarnation started flying fairly close to that date.

From the latter picture:

Quote:
Most of the National Airlines 18 B757 strong fleet is stored in MHV, since the Las Vegas based company ceased operations on nov 6, 2002.

There have been two incarnations of Braniff - the original, which flew from June 20, 1928, flying OKC to TUL, to 1982, and Braniff II which was 1984 or 1985 to the late 1980's.

Pan Am has actually seen three - the original from 1929 (KYW-HAV) to November, 1989, Pan Am II which was a re-branding of Carnival Airlines. The new version quickly folded, and the third is the 727 operator of today.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
User avatar
spinkid
Posts: 1378
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2001 5:59 am

Need Historical Information On National Airlines

Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:17 am

There was also a third Incarnation of Braniff. Braniff III flew in the early 90's. It revived the Ultra color scheme on mostly 727's and a DC-9 to and from Florida and the Northeast. It went bust shortly before Hurricane Andrew and some of their 727s were damaged on the Tarmac at Miami as no one was able or willing to fly them out.
 
Sabena332
Posts: 14938
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 3:57 am

Need Historical Information On National Airlines

Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:21 am

Quoting BrettFromCLT (Reply 1):
The partially casino funded version was started in 1999 and went bust in 2002.

Too bad that they aren't around anymore, a friend and me flew on them in July 2000 (LAX-LAS-LAX), they had very cheap fares, friendly F/As, and great service!

Anyone knows why they went bust?

Patrick
NZ1's mother is a disgusting crack-whore and his father is a worthless alcoholic!
 
jlbmedia
Posts: 297
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2002 11:29 am

Need Historical Information On National Airlines

Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:23 am

These sites have info on the first "National". As for the 2nd, I flew them PHL to Las Vegas in 2000 I believe. John.

http://www.nationalsundowners.com/home.php

http://www.geocities.com/nationalairlines1/
JLB54061
 
B6FA4ever
Posts: 748
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2003 6:49 am

Need Historical Information On National Airlines

Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:26 am

i never flew the late 90's version of National but at jetblue we have quite a bunch of ex-national F/A's. i gotta say, i think i would've loved to fly them because i've worked w/ most of them and they are one of the best bunch i know! i'm sure the flights to/from LAS were more enjoyable having them work those flights at national.

~B6FA4ever
 
timz
Posts: 6114
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 1999 7:43 am

Need Historical Information On National Airlines

Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:32 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 2):
If memory serves, the name "National Airlines" disappeared officially on January 1, 1980, when the airline was officially folded into Pan Am.

Depends what you mean by "officially" ... the mid-1980 PA timetables still listed NA flights as NA flights, didn't they?
 
Jeremy
Posts: 574
Joined: Wed May 16, 2001 10:27 am

Need Historical Information On National Airlines

Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:38 am

The LAS based National was actually the 3rd National.

There was a carrier in the early 90s called Private Jet that operated MD-80 aircraft, which changed their name to National.
You are now free to be sexually harassed and then terminated for filing a complaint--Southwest Airlines to me.
 
exFATboy
Posts: 1887
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2003 11:15 am

Need Historical Information On National Airlines

Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:41 am

Quoting Sabena332 (Reply 4):
Anyone knows why they went bust?

They apparently weren't very profitable from Day One, having started in May of 1999 and filing Chapter 11 in December of 2000. The initial bankruptcy was attributed, at least in part, to a jet fuel price run-up in the summer of 2000, and then they never recovered from the impact of 9/11, slowly running out of cash until shutdown on Nov 6, 2002.

Here's a Las Vegas Review-Journal story from 11/7/02 on the shutdown.

Last summer I saw a National II sign still in place on the lower-level road at O'Hare while walking from the Airport Hilton to the terminal. I took a pic, but would up parting company with my camera later that month and losing it...
 
Sabena332
Posts: 14938
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 3:57 am

Need Historical Information On National Airlines

Mon Nov 20, 2006 9:14 am

Thanks a lot fot the info, ExFATboy! Interesting!

By the way, two or three weeks ago I visited a friend, by some coincidence we went through his "boarding-pass, inflight-magazine, and safety card archive", we found his N7 LAX-LAS boarding pass, issued on an ATB like ticket stub but it was blue (not the regular greenish ATB ticket colors). Too bad that we didn't find the return boarding pass (and too bad that I don't have mine anymore), but I think we got a proper boardng pass with a National logo on top. Ah... the memories.  Wink

Patrick
NZ1's mother is a disgusting crack-whore and his father is a worthless alcoholic!
 
Matt D
Posts: 8907
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 1999 6:00 am

Need Historical Information On National Airlines

Mon Nov 20, 2006 9:50 am

The LAS based National was not the third, but FOURTH National Airlines.

There was some short lived Johnny-come-lately National flying a couple of 747's in the mid 1980's:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Johan Ljungdahl




And here are a couple of pix of the LAS National "hubbing".

http://x-2000r.angelcities.com/images/National_Hub.JPG
http://x-2000r.angelcities.com/images/LASTerm.JPG
 
g4resagent
Posts: 182
Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2005 2:29 pm

Need Historical Information On National Airlines

Mon Nov 20, 2006 10:25 am

There are also a bunch of people from N7 at Allegiant.
 
User avatar
malaysia
Posts: 2616
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 1999 3:26 am

Need Historical Information On National Airlines

Mon Nov 20, 2006 10:35 am

You can still see the National Airlines logo on the former HQ at LAS airport
There Are Those Who Believe That There May Yet Be Other Airlines Who Even Now Fight To Survive Beyond The Heavens
 
B6FA4ever
Posts: 748
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2003 6:49 am

Need Historical Information On National Airlines

Mon Nov 20, 2006 10:51 am

Quoting G4resagent (Reply 12):
There are also a bunch of people from N7 at Allegiant.

same goes for Omni.

Quoting Malaysia (Reply 13):
You can still see the National Airlines logo on the former HQ at LAS airport

yup...i look for it all the time as we taxi past it for rwy 25R. pretty much faded away. such a sad site.

Quoting Matt D (Reply 11):

i remember hearing from a couple ex-National FA's that work at jetblue how weird and sad it was to be walking thru that same terminal when we moved over to the D gates.

on a side note...the 2nd national airlines picture in reply #11 there's now a Starbucks where those seats are.

~B6FA4ever

[Edited 2006-11-20 02:52:22]
 
aa757first
Posts: 3140
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2003 11:40 am

Need Historical Information On National Airlines

Mon Nov 20, 2006 11:00 am

Quoting Sabena332 (Reply 4):

Anyone knows why they went bust?

Two reasons.

National was started to provide cheap, casino subsidized fares into LAS. All flights (I think) ran into LAS. Also, you could book a stop over in LAS when traveling somewhere else. For example, you could fly PHL-LAS, stay in LAS for two days and then fly LAS-LAX and not pay any more for it. The entire concept was to get people into LAS, so they would spend money at the LAS casinos.

But, lower fares from other airlines became more easily available, which meant the casinos were almost wasting their money.

And, of course, 9/11. Leisure travel came to a halt after 9/11 and that was the vast majority of their business. They were so desperate towards the end that they had $1 fares on 09/11/02.

AAndrew
 
F9Animal
Posts: 3652
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

Need Historical Information On National Airlines

Mon Nov 20, 2006 11:09 am

Harrahs also refused to supply N7 with additional funding during the bankruptcy. National was dependent on the cash infusion, and started looking to other casinos to help. Unfortunatley, the casinos saw minimal benefits and minimal returns for the operation.

National was close to getting additional cash, but 9/11/01 really put the nail in the coffin. Carl Icahn was rumored to have been lurking around Nationals headquarters, but he backed out. It is really too bad that National did not survive, as the service was good, and the airline in whole was a great bunch. I did have the opportunity to fly National on 9/11/02, when fares were $1 each way. I got a roundtrip fare from SEA to LAS for about $20.00. The plane was packed of course, and the service was great.

I do miss National II.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
jeckPDX
Posts: 250
Joined: Sun Nov 16, 2003 6:12 am

Need Historical Information On National Airlines

Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:13 pm

Thanks for all the great replies. I did not realize national II was casino subsidized. I was always under the impression funding came from the city of LAS itself to promote leisure travel, although I guess casino subsidies would make sense. Does anyomne have any interior pics or timetables they can post from National?

Also, what is this 727 flying PAn AM 3 that was mentioned above. I would love to travel on a 727 again.

JeckPDX
"Beer is proof that God Loves us and wanted People to be Happy" - Ben Franklin
 
TrijetsRMissed
Posts: 1981
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:15 pm

Need Historical Information On National Airlines

Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:24 pm

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 2):
Pan Am has actually seen three - the original from 1929 (KYW-HAV) to November, 1989

The original Pan Am, like Eastern, did not cease operations until 1991.
There's nothing quite like a trijet.
 
phllax
Posts: 338
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 6:53 am

RE: Need Historical Information On National Airlines

Mon Nov 20, 2006 4:05 pm

I think no 2 of their aircraft had the same interior setup. I was on 4 and each had a different configuration. Some had video monitors, some no air vents, etc.
 
Magyarorszag
Posts: 1072
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 5:53 am

RE: Need Historical Information On National Airlines

Mon Nov 20, 2006 6:11 pm

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 2):
If memory serves, the name "National Airlines" disappeared officially on January 1, 1980, when the airline was officially folded into Pan Am.

That was January 7th, 1980.

Quoting Timz (Reply 7):
Depends what you mean by "officially" ... the mid-1980 PA timetables still listed NA flights as NA flights, didn't they?

That's probable, because I rememebr seeing a PA timetable following the merger sporting half a Pan Am globe and half National Sunking logo to let the customers know about the merger.

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 18):
The original Pan Am, like Eastern, did not cease operations until 1991.

December 4th and January 18th, respectively.
 
DesertAir
Posts: 1270
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 1:34 am

RE: Need Historical Information On National Airlines

Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:54 pm

PanAm purchased National to create a domestic route system to feed their international operations.

[Edited 2006-11-20 12:54:54]
 
TransIsland
Posts: 1826
Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 9:22 pm

RE: Need Historical Information On National Airlines

Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:56 pm

Does this airline count as half an incarnation, btw?


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Andy Vanderheyden
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mike Primamore



While it didn't carry the National name, it used the logo. What's the story here?
I'm an aviation expert. I have Sky Juice for breakfast.
 
Magyarorszag
Posts: 1072
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 5:53 am

RE: Need Historical Information On National Airlines

Mon Nov 20, 2006 9:32 pm

Quoting TransIsland (Reply 22):
Does this airline count as half an incarnation, btw?

No! Southeast was a kinda charter/low cost airline that went bust at the end of 2004. Airways had a report about that airline two or three years ago.

Before Southeast, at the begining of the 1990s (1992/1993), Key Air International used a modified Sun King logo. Then one of its aircraft (at least) went to Trans Alsace where it kept for a while the color scheme and logo of Key.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Gary Watt



Cheers.
 
ImperialEagle
Posts: 2238
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2006 10:53 am

RE: Need Historical Information On National Airlines

Mon Nov 20, 2006 11:38 pm

The original NA was a great airline from a passengers standpoint. I can remember some really fun flights on NA.

They had some great "milk runs" between MIA and the NYC area airports. Over the years quite a few fun flights were to be had on DC-7/B's, L-188's and (pure-jet) DC-8's
(30's purchased from NW).

One outstanding example, back in the mid-sixties was an L-188 (Flt.211) from EWR stopping along the way at PHL,ORF,CHS,SAV,JAX, and on into MIA.

A great northbound L-188 (Flt.296) MIA to JFK stopping at PBI,MCO,DAB,JAX,SAV,CHS,ORF,DCA. a great way to while away a whole afternoon and evening!

A kool DC-8 flight was #47 from MIA to LAX stopping at JAX,MSY, and HOU with gourmet breakfast, snack and luncheon along the way!

The hop-scotch L-188 flights within Florida were a real treat especially in the middle of the summer. A mid-afternoon flight assured plenty of thunderstorm action for your IFE! The wildest flight I EVER experienced was on an NA B-721 between MCO and MIA one hot summers afternoon.

The folks that worked for NA were the best. I always had a great flight with wonderful service (at least when the weather permitted the F/A's to get around the cabin!).
Like so many others, I really miss NA.
Those were the days!
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
Magyarorszag
Posts: 1072
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 5:53 am

RE: Need Historical Information On National Airlines

Tue Nov 21, 2006 3:04 am

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 24):

I've never had the pleasure to fly with 'em, but NA seemed a to be a cool airline. After all, National was the "Airline of the Stars", the first US airline to fly jets on domestic services, changed its strict corporate image to what became a very famous and warm Sun King scheme with brightly dressed stewardesses (comprising a synthetic tiger skin coat... for Florida ?!?!?). I don't know if any other US airline had its stewardesses taking part of the Changing of the Guard in London.
 
N702ML
Posts: 406
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2005 8:00 am

RE: Need Historical Information On National Airlines

Tue Nov 21, 2006 10:13 am

Unfortunately, I am too young to have ever flown on the original National Airlines. That, and I grew up in a part of the country the original NA didn't operate to - Ohio.

For the Las Vegas-based National, I had the pleasure of flying them several times. One from LAS to LAX and several times from LAX to DFW.

My partner and I were very, very impressed by the Vegas-based N7. We, fortunately, had the pleasure of always flying in First Class because N7 had a policy that for a minimal fee (I believe $20) a non-rev could upgrade to First Class.

If I recall correctly, the 757s i flew had white leather seats in first class and the flight attendants were required to wear a more formal uniform if they were working first class.

I remember the food was wonderful, ESPECIALLY THE CHEESECAKE! The crews were very nice.

I still have a set of the N7 china. Its very classy...mosly white with a subtle navy blue trim and the stylized multi-color "N" logo....I have a plate, a coffee mug, a butter cup and a shot-glass.

I also still have a bottled-water handed out by N7. I had to keep it....it was a regular bottle of water but on the inside of the bottle was the image of a N7 757.

I have often said N7 was one of my favorite airlines to fly and many of my coworkers agreed. It was a shame to see them go.
The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of Southwest Airlines.
 
RobertS975
Posts: 759
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 2:17 am

RE: Need Historical Information On National Airlines

Tue Nov 21, 2006 11:24 am

The first flight I ever took was a National DC8 Idlewild (no JFK yet) to Miami in 1962 at the age of 10. Many years and many miles ago! National evetually had a somewhat racy ad theme called "Fly Me" and named their aircraft with a variety of female names.