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Official DL/US Merger Thread: Fleet Speculation

Mon Nov 20, 2006 2:43 pm

This thread is to speculate how the merged airline's fleet might take shape in the future.


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Due to the fact that there are 35 active threads on this topic, all previous ones are being locked and will be repaced with 'official' ones to help keep things consolidated and organized.


The following threads are being locked.

http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3101120/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3101594/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3101823/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3102040/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3102235/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3102338/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3102343/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3103401/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3103695/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3104869/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3105230/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3099151/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3099206/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3099232/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3099274/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3099317/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3099484/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3099503/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3099505/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3099757/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3100017/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3100179/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3100287/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3100493/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3100550/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3100859/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3097793/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3097961/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3098201/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3098328/
http://www1.airliners.net/discussion...eneral_aviation/read.main/3098984/
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HPRamper
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RE: Official DL/US Merger Thread: Fleet Speculation

Mon Nov 20, 2006 2:51 pm

Anyone else think the DL proposal might, in part, be US sending a message to Airbus?
 
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RE: Official DL/US Merger Thread: Fleet Speculation

Mon Nov 20, 2006 10:43 pm

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 1):
Anyone else think the DL proposal might, in part, be US sending a message to Airbus?

I do... I wouldn't be surprised if Parker is trying to get out of the A350 commitment.
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D L X
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RE: Official DL/US Merger Thread: Fleet Speculation

Tue Nov 21, 2006 12:15 am

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 2):
I wouldn't be surprised if Parker is trying to get out of the A350 commitment.

US isn't committed to the 350. If Parker wants out, it's just a phone call away, iirc.
 
Burkhard
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RE: Official DL/US Merger Thread: Fleet Speculation

Tue Nov 21, 2006 12:21 am

You guys are so funny! You love to speculate about aircrafts that are ten years away from first service and 20 years away from having a severe impact on revenues.

These guys have problems now. They have A330s,777,767,757, A320s, B737 classic and NG, MD80, MD90, Emb 190 and more smaller stuff around them now, they are an active museum of last 20 years of aircraft history. They have enough to sort out now - so we can speculate without danger anybody will proven false as long as anybody else remembers...

Anybody has the actual combined fleet numbers?
 
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RE: Official DL/US Merger Thread: Fleet Speculation

Tue Nov 21, 2006 4:46 am

Not that it helps the fleet picture much, but I thought DL removed their few MD90s from the fleet?
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mariner
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RE: Official DL/US Merger Thread: Fleet Speculation

Tue Nov 21, 2006 4:57 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 3):
US isn't committed to the 350. If Parker wants out, it's just a phone call away, iirc.

Correct. In the meantime, he gets the best of both worlds.

Presumably, he gets the A350 somewhere near the price originally negotiated and he gets the launch customer discount.

If he doesn't like the aircraft on launch, if it is too much plane or whatever, he can cancel. If it suits what he wants to do he gets the new aircraft at a darn good price.

If he complains that the plane is too late for him, he'd probably get a good deal on some A330's in the interim.

He's in the catbird seat.

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 1):
in part, be US sending a message to Airbus?

In view of the above, what message would he want to send?

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FutureFO
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RE: Official DL/US Merger Thread: Fleet Speculation

Tue Nov 21, 2006 5:23 am

The M90's are still flying for DL.
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steeler83
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RE: Official DL/US Merger Thread: Fleet Speculation

Tue Nov 21, 2006 9:57 am

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 2):
I do... I wouldn't be surprised if Parker is trying to get out of the A350 commitment.



Quoting D L X (Reply 3):
US isn't committed to the 350. If Parker wants out, it's just a phone call away, iirc.

And someone above already said they have long-haul 767s, 777s, and aren't they taking order of the 787? To Parker, an easy way of getting very long-haul aircraft to open Asian routes, and PHX-Europe routes...
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RE: Official DL/US Merger Thread: Fleet Speculation

Tue Nov 21, 2006 10:07 am

Quoting FutureFO (Reply 7):
The M90's are still flying for DL.

Really? I thought they'd elected to retire that fleet type, since there were so few of them and therefore they were more of a burden to the bottom line.

I could have sworn they were gone. Weird.

Well, I'd guess that would be the first sub-fleet gone if said merger occurs. Thoughts?
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FutureFO
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RE: Official DL/US Merger Thread: Fleet Speculation

Tue Nov 21, 2006 11:40 am

Out of SLC-LAX and CVG-SLC as well as a few other places.
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WesternA318
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RE: Official DL/US Merger Thread: Fleet Speculation

Tue Nov 21, 2006 12:04 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 5):
Not that it helps the fleet picture much, but I thought DL removed their few MD90s from the fleet?

All 15 of them make their way through SLC and to a smaller extent CVG on a daily basis...

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 9):
Well, I'd guess that would be the first sub-fleet gone if said merger occurs. Thoughts?

In my twisted mind, here is what the new airline MIGHT look like

777-200ER/LR, A330-200/-300, 767-200/-300/-400, 757-200 (the DL fleet is larger, so perhaps the US fleet will be reengined?), A319/A320/A321, and the Express....
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steeler83
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RE: Official DL/US Merger Thread: Fleet Speculation

Tue Nov 21, 2006 12:29 pm

Express fleet... It looks like DL doesn't operate any prop planes? just the CR2/7s? The CRJ200s will disappear I am sure... so what about this:

E75/70s for RP (US express)
CR7 (US and DL express)
CR9 (US)

Q1, 2, and 3 (US)
Saab340 (US)
maybe a dozen Beeches as well that are too small for Q1 service like LNS-PIT and others

The 50-seat jets have already been argued to have been uneconomical, so no ERJ145s and especially no CRJ-200s!

Thoughts?

looking up both USAir and DL on their respective websites for fleet info...
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loggat
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RE: Official DL/US Merger Thread: Fleet Speculation

Tue Nov 21, 2006 12:37 pm

ASA operates ATR 72's and Freedom operates DH8's for DL
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USPIT10L
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RE: Official DL/US Merger Thread: Fleet Speculation

Tue Nov 21, 2006 12:57 pm

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 12):
It looks like DL doesn't operate any prop planes?

SkyWest also flies Embraer-120s from SLC to several cities in UT and ID.
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MCOflyer
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RE: Official DL/US Merger Thread: Fleet Speculation

Tue Nov 21, 2006 1:05 pm

If US/DL merges, heres my guess:

Short Haul:
738/9ER
E190
A319/320/321
752ETOPS
763

Long Haul:
752ETOPS
762ER/763ER/764ER/777LR/ER
A333/332

Types leaving:
MD88/ MD90/ 733/ 734

That leaves alot of planes to be replaced and my guess is that a bunch of B738/739ER would be ordered and also airbuses too.

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gigneil
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RE: Official DL/US Merger Thread: Fleet Speculation

Tue Nov 21, 2006 1:06 pm

A bunch of A320s yes. Doubtful they would add to the 737 fleet, there's just no reason.

The 738s will happily join the fleet of 733s and 734s, and they will need the capacity well into the future.

NS
 
steeler83
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RE: Official DL/US Merger Thread: Fleet Speculation

Tue Nov 21, 2006 1:08 pm

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 14):
SkyWest also flies Embraer-120s from SLC to several cities in UT and ID.

Thanks. I thought that there would be some way of looking up TOTAL fleet information on DL's website. Apparently there is not, unlike on US' website. Then again, airline webpages vary from airline/website to airline/website. I guess it depends on who develops them for the airlines as well...

I was just trying to do my homework if you will and see if I could come up with anything regarding express/regional fleet and think of what a combined service would look like. I know that Comair is nothing more than a financial burden to DL basically, well, according to other a.netters anyway, 50-seat CRJs are not very economical either, I don't know about Beeches, are they too small? But what does that leave really small airports like LNS? I don't think a route like LNS-PIT would be very profitable if operated with a DH8 as opposed to Beech1900s, or would it mean the end to LNS-PIT service (providing that the beeches are cut?)

I will think of other questions later...
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USPIT10L
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RE: Official DL/US Merger Thread: Fleet Speculation

Tue Nov 21, 2006 1:40 pm

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 17):
But what does that leave really small airports like LNS? I don't think a route like LNS-PIT would be very profitable if operated with a DH8 as opposed to Beech1900s, or would it mean the end to LNS-PIT service (providing that the beeches are cut?)

I think DL with the new management would keep the EAS service. It could just be transferred to Colgan Air. This might take more work than we realize, but there has to be some rationalization of US Airways Express operators. They simply have too many. I think six or seven carriers is enough. No airline needs ten commuter/regional operators to do their local service.
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FCYTravis
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RE: Official DL/US Merger Thread: Fleet Speculation

Tue Nov 21, 2006 1:46 pm

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 16):
A bunch of A320s yes. Doubtful they would add to the 737 fleet, there's just no reason.

Sure there is. Doug doesn't want to get stuck as a single-source airline. Buy a few new Boeings and you put pressure on Airbus to please their largest customer.
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avconsultant
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RE: Official DL/US Merger Thread: Fleet Speculation

Tue Nov 21, 2006 2:04 pm

SW is already eyeing the assets, especially the 737-800's.

http://yahoo.reuters.com/news/articl...08_N20324287&type=comktNews&rpc=44

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 16):
The 738s will happily join the fleet of 733s and 734s, and they will need the capacity well into the future.

November 20th WSJ, Parker mentioned in the fleet consolidation the older aircraft would leave, that would the 77 - 737 Classics, easy buyer for the 75 - DL 737-800. He also said, ATL would be better served with larger aircraft and fewer flight allocating the RJ's to CLT. I also think this is where SW is interested in ATL gates which Parker said they would scale back flights.

This is interesting US has 57 EMB-190 on order.

DL has 121 757 with 25 ETOPS to arrive. US has 34 757 w/ RR engines. Now, FedEx announced a fleet replacement Sept. 25th for nearly 90 B-757 spending $2.6 Billion. There are not 90 757's on the market today. I wonder if this was not a deal worked out with GECAS and USAirways. GECAS is holding a large amount of DL debt.

We will see.
 
steeler83
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RE: Official DL/US Merger Thread: Fleet Speculation

Tue Nov 21, 2006 2:11 pm

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 18):
They simply have too many. I think six or seven carriers is enough. No airline needs ten commuter/regional operators to do their local service.

What do you think of Comair, would they be dumped? I hope they keep RP and their E70s... Who else is worthy of staying with this new airline, should the merger go through?
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RE: Official DL/US Merger Thread: Fleet Speculation

Tue Nov 21, 2006 3:08 pm

Quoting AvConsultant (Reply 20):
I also think this is where SW is interested in ATL gates which Parker said they would scale back flights.

When did Parker say that? I think there would have been an even bigger media shitstorm from the ATL crowd if THAT ever were uttered.
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WesternA318
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RE: Official DL/US Merger Thread: Fleet Speculation

Tue Nov 21, 2006 3:26 pm

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 21):
What do you think of Comair, would they be dumped? I hope they keep RP and their E70s... Who else is worthy of staying with this new airline, should the merger go through?

I'd probably venture to guess Mesa and Skywest/ASA?

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 22):
I think there would have been an even bigger media shitstorm from the ATL crowd if THAT ever were uttered.

LOL, It would make the Eastern union fights of yore seem like Christmas at an orphanage...
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avconsultant
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RE: Official DL/US Merger Thread: Fleet Speculation

Tue Nov 21, 2006 9:54 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 22):
When did Parker say that? I think there would have been an even bigger media shitstorm from the ATL crowd if THAT ever were uttered.

It's more than uttered, he's repeated everytime he's asked about the network with 2 hubs in close proximity. HE says, "they'll likely fly larger aircraft from ATL while moving smaller planes (RJ's) to nearby CLT. - in 11/20's WSJ page B3. Last week on CNBC, Parker said there were overlapping assets that would better serve the company being leveraged. When asked about ATL he mentioned realigning the network reducing the ATL delays.

ATL has 80 millions O&D compared CLT 28 million O&D; however CLT is the nations #2 banking center behind NYC. ATL has already started $hitting bricks, they've lost the corporate HQ of Ga Pacific and BellSouth. Possibly losing SunTrust should the 5th 3rd or ABN Amro (both are banks) deal go through. Though these companies retain a large presence within ATL, cities pride themselves on the number of Fortune 500 HQ. Losing 2 within weeks apart and possibly a 3rd & 4th within the year, "Shirley Girl" is stressing.

The bright side is this should force the city to get their $hit together & stopping sucking on the DL "inkind tit".
 
767-332ER
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RE: Official DL/US Merger Thread: Fleet Speculation

Tue Nov 21, 2006 10:34 pm

Quoting AvConsultant (Reply 24):



Quoting AvConsultant (Reply 24):
It's more than uttered, he's repeated everytime he's asked about the network with 2 hubs in close proximity. HE says, "they'll likely fly larger aircraft from ATL while moving smaller planes (RJ's) to nearby CLT. - in 11/20's WSJ page B3. Last week on CNBC, Parker said there were overlapping assets that would better serve the company being leveraged. When asked about ATL he mentioned realigning the network reducing the ATL delays.

ATL has 80 millions O&D compared CLT 28 million O&D; however CLT is the nations #2 banking center behind NYC. ATL has already started $hitting bricks, they've lost the corporate HQ of Ga Pacific and BellSouth. Possibly losing SunTrust should the 5th 3rd or ABN Amro (both are banks) deal go through. Though these companies retain a large presence within ATL, cities pride themselves on the number of Fortune 500 HQ. Losing 2 within weeks apart and possibly a 3rd & 4th within the year, "Shirley Girl" is stressing.

The bright side is this should force the city to get their $hit together & stopping sucking on the DL "inkind tit".

Please tell us where you are getting those O&D numbers, when ATL alone last year did 85.9 mil pax total.
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RE: Official DL/US Merger Thread: Fleet Speculation

Tue Nov 21, 2006 11:59 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 3):
US isn't committed to the 350. If Parker wants out, it's just a phone call away, iirc.

Okay, I'll buy that, but considering the relationship US has with Boeing, virtually none in the last decade, will they continue to honor Delta's longstanding "gentleman's agreement" with them. IIRC, Boeing Capital is one of Delta's creditors. Anyone, please correct me if I'm wrong.
If this merger comes to fruition, which I am by no means convinced it will, would that force US to reexamine it's commitments to both Airbus and Boeing.
My own gut instinct tells me they'd be foolish not to.

Sorry, but I would love to see 787s in Delta and US livery and both companies
independent of one another. Just my opinion, mind you.
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avconsultant
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RE: Official DL/US Merger Thread: Fleet Speculation

Wed Nov 22, 2006 4:12 am

Quoting 767-332ER (Reply 25):
Please tell us where you are getting those O&D numbers, when ATL alone last year did 85.9 mil pax total.

Yesterday AJC online, it was total pax not O&D. Thanks for catching. I remember the delta being 40 million.
 
steeler83
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RE: Official DL/US Merger Thread: Fleet Speculation

Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:47 am

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 23):
I'd probably venture to guess Mesa and Skywest/ASA?

Are you saying that they're worthy commuter airlines, or should they be dumped?
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BlazingCessna
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RE: Official DL/US Merger Thread: Fleet Speculation

Sun Nov 26, 2006 9:50 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 5):
but I thought DL removed their few MD90s from the fleet



Quoting FutureFO (Reply 7):
The M90's are still flying for DL.

I was about to say, why in the hell would DL do that??? They wanted a buttload more of the planes but the MD/Boeing "Merger" killed that idea. I can see the MD80 series going out to pasture, but not the MD90's. Those things will be flying 20 years from now! (Along with NW DC-9's apparently)

Here is an FAA link for the US Airways/America West Fleet.

Here is Delta's fleet.

As you can see the combined fleet would look like this just after the merger.


US Airways/America West/Delta
Airbus (205)
319 54/39
320 20/55
321 28
330 9

Boeing (468)
737 69/27/79
757 34/12/121
767 10/0/108
777 0/0/8

MD (136)
M88 0/0/120
M90 0/0/16

Now lets look at the future mantinance issues. You have 200 Airbus, and nearly 500 Boeing. Unless A gives me a KILLER deal, I can't see ordering a product that I have less ability to maintain. Just a nugget to ponder over.
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dacman
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RE: Official DL/US Merger Thread: Fleet Speculation

Sun Nov 26, 2006 9:59 pm

WOW!!!

There sure will be alot of surplus aircraft flooding the market over the next few years if this meger (hostile) takeover occurs.....stay tuned.

Michael
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FLALEFTY
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RE: Official DL/US Merger Thread: Fleet Speculation

Mon Nov 27, 2006 4:41 am

There will much political pressure from the southern and eastern states' Congressional delegations on the Bush Administration NOT to allow this merger to receive government approval.

The only way this merger works for Parker is by eliminating thousands of jobs and drastically reducing capacity in the combined airline. With a Presidential election coming up in less than a couple of years, I can't see the American public being sold on the benefit of fewer flights and higher fares.
 
737DAB320
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RE: Official DL/US Merger Thread: Fleet Speculation

Mon Nov 27, 2006 6:38 am

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 4):
Anybody has the actual combined fleet numbers?

The combined numbers are as follows according to the FAA website:

B737-200: 6
B737-300: 58
B737-400: 40
B737-800: 71
B757-200: 167
B767-200: 14
B767-300: 83
B767-400: 21
B777-200: 8
A319-100: 93
A320-200: 75
A321-200: 28
A330-300: 9
MD-88: 120
MD-90: 16

AIRBUS TOTAL: 205
BOEING TOTAL: 468
MD TOTAL: 136

TOTAL FLEET: 809
Nothing is certain.
 
panam330
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RE: Official DL/US Merger Thread: Fleet Speculation

Mon Nov 27, 2006 7:01 am

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 11):
757-200 (the DL fleet is larger, so perhaps the US fleet will be reengined?)

A subfleet of 39 RR-engined 757s from the current US would not be reengined, especially when some are well over a decade (or two, in the case of the ex-EA birds) old. A 39 aircraft subfleet would not hurt their bottom line too much.

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 12):
The CRJ200s will disappear I am sure

How about... not. The combined airline is going to need the Express lift.

Quoting AvConsultant (Reply 20):
US has 34 757 w/ RR engines

39, according to Airfleets.
 
USPIT10L
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RE: Official DL/US Merger Thread: Fleet Speculation

Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:07 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 21):
What do you think of Comair, would they be dumped? I hope they keep RP and their E70s... Who else is worthy of staying with this new airline, should the merger go through?

Frankly I think OH is finished. It's the major thing bogging down DL's restructuring. If DL emerges as a standalone, OH will become a codeshare partner, if US gets control, OH will be liquidated. Otherwise, OH is a great company--it just has the highest costs of any regional flying.
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jad0761
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RE: Official DL/US Merger Thread: Fleet Speculation

Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:17 am

I think that everyone is making an A v B battle start and not looking at the reality of the merger. If this merger were to happen, I think there wouldn't be more orders except ones already placed for a while and given that the cost of going with only one type is not an option at this moment as sourcing that many planes in a short time span of a couple of years is not feasible and the airplanes are not currently available for this to happen. Therefore, I believe that to save costs and streamline operations the only thing that would make logical sense is to transfer the remaining boeing aircraft that aren't being retired to DL which already has maintenance facilities and pilots and all the other things it needs to run boeing planes while this intern will save US millions by making them all airbus and DL will get more planes for expansion and others to retire older models and become more efficient. I think that even though US would own DL, it would still be kept separate but I do think that some hubs will be downsized like for example a hub in PHX and a hub in LAS just doesn't make sense because they are so close, also I think that CLT would sadly become a focus city like PIT is because of the less air traffic demand and close proximity to ATL. I also think that the shuttle services offered by both airlines at pretty much the same schedules and destinations will be given to US airways and delta shuttle would just disappear. Now I know that some of the things the head of US said don't match my predictions like the bit about hubs and none would be closed but in order to be profitable I can't see how you could have hubs so close together.
 
USPIT10L
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RE: Official DL/US Merger Thread: Fleet Speculation

Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:22 am

Quoting Jad0761 (Reply 35):
I think that even though US would own DL, it would still be kept separate but I do think that some hubs will be downsized like for example a hub in PHX and a hub in LAS just doesn't make sense because they are so close, also I think that CLT would sadly become a focus city like PIT is because of the less air traffic demand and close proximity to ATL.

I think CLT could be an excellent reliever for ATL, especially for weather delays. The only problem with bad weather days is if they happen spontaneously--a line of t-storms pops up and ATL is shut down immediately. Then and only then is a reliever hub impractical, because people can't get out of ATL to make other connections elsewhere. Now if there is sufficient planning for these storms-fleet and sked adjustments--CLT can relieve ATL quite effectively. I remember working flights in summer '05 for DL at PIT and they would get in on time and then sit for an hour and a half because of groundstops in ATL. You couldn't win.

I don't think PHX and SLC will be problem. LAS as it is operates with one main bank for redeyes. They do have flights during the daytime, but it isn't as busy. That could maintained to keep PHX and SLC from backing up should the need occur.
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FCYTravis
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RE: Official DL/US Merger Thread: Fleet Speculation

Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:25 am

Quoting PanAm330 (Reply 33):
How about... not. The combined airline is going to need the Express lift.

Actually, how about yes? Doug Parker has stated in no uncertain terms that a disproportionate amount of the capacity reduction will come from the 50-seat regional jet fleets operated as USX and DLConx.

The upshot is, if the merger happens, many, many, many of the 50-seat RJs currently contracted by US and DL will end up as aluminum cans.
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RE: Official DL/US Merger Thread: Fleet Speculation

Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:31 am

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 34):
Frankly I think OH is finished.

I don't understand what Delta is trying to achieve with Comair.

They paid a lot of money to acquire the airline - $1.8 billion? - and presumably they want some return on that investment. Or are they prepared to write that money off?

I understand the cost issues at Comair, but I don't see how taking aircraft away from them is going to help the airline survive - and thus give Delta a return, at least potentially.

If Delta does not want to pay Comair's costs let them contract other providers, and let Comair bid elsewhere for other work if they can get it - but they can't do that if they don't have the planes.

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 34):
It's the major thing bogging down DL's restructuring.

I'm not sure how that can be, either. Surely Delta should do what Delta has to do, and Comair should do what Comair has to do?

Puzzled. Any light on the issue appreciated.

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FutureFO
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RE: Official DL/US Merger Thread: Fleet Speculation

Mon Nov 27, 2006 12:41 pm

OH is in the BK filing as well. That is why DL would be more than happy to get rid of them. They are one of the costliest operations out there. If anything in the current situation it would not suprise me that they get reduced to as little as possible.
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RE: Official DL/US Merger Thread: Fleet Speculation

Mon Nov 27, 2006 12:54 pm

Though Boeing is an unsecured creditor with DL, they are one of the majour players on DL's creditor board...thus for this takeover to go through, it will probably need some majour approval from Boeing..and I dont' think Boeing is just going to let this happen unless there isn't something in for them....something majour..as Boeing is a $3.6 billion dollar creditor to DL...

Don't be surprised if Parker has already had a chat with Boeing...it could be one of the reasons why UA has already paid Airbus the loan.....
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gigneil
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RE: Official DL/US Merger Thread: Fleet Speculation

Mon Nov 27, 2006 12:58 pm

The unsecured creditors are the ones that will decide everything...

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RE: Official DL/US Merger Thread: Fleet Speculation

Mon Nov 27, 2006 12:59 pm

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 1):
Anyone else think the DL proposal might, in part, be US sending a message to Airbus?

How bout this... They are NOT merging and US is going to have to cancel A350 order due to 2015 EIS and they need a/c for expansion NOW! DL will emerge in 07 and order 787/777.
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RE: Official DL/US Merger Thread: Fleet Speculation

Mon Nov 27, 2006 1:05 pm

quote=Dacman,reply=30]WOW!!!

There sure will be alot of surplus aircraft flooding the market over the next few years if this meger (hostile) takeover occurs.....stay tuned.

Michael
Dacman
LAX/LGB Local[/quote]

A boat load of surplus airplanes on the market may be enough for Boeing to nix the deal. The last thing they want to see is more used aircraft out there. Not to mention the Boeing order DL has likely been negotiating to be announced on BK exit. Two large creditors (DALPA being one) who don't approve the deal should be enough to kill it even before the government chews it up.
 
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RE: Official DL/US Merger Thread: Fleet Speculation

Mon Nov 27, 2006 1:38 pm

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 41):
The unsecured creditors are the ones that will decide everything...

They come after the secured creditor..its the shareholders who get screwed...

The secured creditors and judge's decision comes first....
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RE: Official DL/US Merger Thread: Fleet Speculation

Mon Nov 27, 2006 1:38 pm

Quoting FutureFO (Reply 39):
OH is in the BK filing as well.

Well, sure. As a wholly owned subsidairy of Delta (and reliant on Delta for all its income), there wasn't a lot of choice.

But that doesn't explain:

Quoting FutureFO (Reply 39):
That is why DL would be more than happy to get rid of them.

Why would Delta be ready to let its considerable investment in Comair go down the gurgler?

Why not sell the airline, as they did Atlantic Southeast? It was strongly rumored, and Mr. Grinstein seemed to support the idea:

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnat...tories/2005/04/25/newscolumn1.html

"Delta CEO Gerald Grinstein has said that while the carriers are important, "you don't have to own them to get all the benefits."

Even if, as the article suggests, they had only got less than half of what they paid, they would have been more than they are likely to get on this present path.

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FCYTravis
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RE: Official DL/US Merger Thread: Fleet Speculation

Mon Nov 27, 2006 2:24 pm

I can't see anyone wanting to buy Comair. Lots of labor troubles, entirely dependent on a single legacy carrier for all its business and huge investments in a market (50-seat regional jets) which is permanently shrinking. Lots and lots of risk, but where's the upside?
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RE: Official DL/US Merger Thread: Fleet Speculation

Mon Nov 27, 2006 2:31 pm

Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 46):
Lots and lots of risk, but where's the upside?

Could not the same have been said of Atlantic Southeast (minus the labor troubles, perhaps)?

Given the costs are, hopefully, being fixed, Comair does fly CR7's and could easily have bid for providing service to another carrier. There is at least one airline looking for such a provider. Or was.

But then Delta took some of those CR7's away, which leaves Comair effectively legless.

So, I still do not understand why Delta is prepared to lose the lot - it is a Delta company, part of Delta.

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coa747
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RE: Official DL/US Merger Thread: Fleet Speculation

Mon Nov 27, 2006 3:35 pm

Since we are talking merger I thought it would be constructive to look at the respective long haul fleets.

US Airways-

A330-200 0 (10 on order)
A330-300 9
A350-800 0 (20 on order)
767-200ER 10
Total 19

Delta-

767-300 24
767-300ER 59
767-400ER 21
777-200 8 (5 orders)
Total 117

As you can see US Airways at present has a very small wide body fleet and with Delta already having 117 Boeing widebody aircraft it is unlikely that a new merged carrier would order only Airbus widebody's. The 20 A350 orders are small potatoes compared to the fleet of Boeing's Delta already has. If anyone will loose out I think it would be Airbus in the new merged carrier at least for widebody's. Not to mention the 345 Boeing narrow body aircraft Delta has now. The combined US Airways has only 357 total aircraft, 241 from the Old US Airways and 134 from America West. Since the merged US Airways basically has no international routes I doubt they will be able to dump all those widebody Boeing's and wait for Airbus to decide whether it will build the A350. Their rapid international expansion needs planes now and since Boeing planes would make up the majority of the fleet they will stay. It is much easier to dump 19 widebody Airbus planes than 117 Boeing's.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Official DL/US Merger Thread: Fleet Speculation

Mon Nov 27, 2006 3:57 pm

Quoting Coa747 (Reply 48):
As you can see US Airways at present has a very small wide body fleet and with Delta already having 117 Boeing widebody aircraft it is unlikely that a new merged carrier would order only Airbus widebody's. The 20 A350 orders are small potatoes compared to the fleet of Boeing's Delta already has. If anyone will loose out I think it would be Airbus in the new merged carrier at least for widebody's. Not to mention the 345 Boeing narrow body aircraft Delta has now. The combined US Airways has only 357 total aircraft, 241 from the Old US Airways and 134 from America West. Since the merged US Airways basically has no international routes I doubt they will be able to dump all those widebody Boeing's and wait for Airbus to decide whether it will build the A350. Their rapid international expansion needs planes now and since Boeing planes would make up the majority of the fleet they will stay. It is much easier to dump 19 widebody Airbus planes than 117 Boeing's.

Also, A330's are hot items...defintely more than 767's......it wouldn't be too much of a stretch for UA to unload them....(all hypothetical of course)///
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