scalebuilder
Posts: 605
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 10:32 pm

KLM And The A-310

Tue Nov 21, 2006 10:03 am

Does anyone know why KLM got rid of their A-310s?

I assume the B-767 replaced it, and did a better job serving KLM's markets and with lower cost.

Anyone out there with the answers?

Thanks!

Scalebuilder
Go the extra mile......and avoid the traffic!!!
 
KL808
Posts: 1534
Joined: Thu May 20, 1999 3:49 am

RE: KLM And The A-310

Tue Nov 21, 2006 10:13 am

I think it had something to do with the range of the A310.

It didn't offer the range KL wanted, though it had the cargo capability it wasn't able to fly to places where KL wanted it to fly.

KL's A310 where all -200 and where ordered I THINK before the -300 was out.

Drew
AMS-LAX-MNL
 
FlySSC
Posts: 5192
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:38 am

RE: KLM And The A-310

Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:14 pm

Quoting KL808 (Reply 1):
KL's A310 where all -200 and where ordered I THINK before the -300 was out.

Right. KLM operated up to 10 A310-200. KL was an early operator of this type (first a/c delivered in April 1983).
It was not, initially, planned to use them as a long haul airliner and were mainly used in the biggest European routes.
Rather than modifying them by adding a fuel tank so they could be used on long-haul (that's what AF did with its A312), KL preferred to get rid of them and replace them with longer ranger and bigger B767.

All KL's A312 went to Federal Express, except 2 of them : PH-AGE & PH-AGF went to MEA-Air Liban.

[Edited 2006-11-21 10:37:03]
 
WesternA318
Posts: 4495
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 11:55 am

RE: KLM And The A-310

Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:17 pm

Anyone know who makes a model of it?
Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
 
Scorpio
Posts: 4806
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2001 3:48 am

RE: KLM And The A-310

Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:20 pm

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 2):
All KL's A312 went to Federal Express, except 2 of them : PH-AGE & PH-AGF went to MEA-Air Liban.

And both of those later also went to FedEx.
 
Magyarorszag
Posts: 1072
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 5:53 am

RE: KLM And The A-310

Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:29 pm

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 2):
All KL's A312 went to Federal Express, except 2 of them : PH-AGE & PH-AGF went to MEA-Air Liban.

The two leased to MEA ended up to FX at the end of the lease.

PH-AGE

PH-AGF

Cheers.
 
kappel
Posts: 1836
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 6:48 pm

RE: KLM And The A-310

Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:34 pm

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 3):
Anyone know who makes a model of it?

I have a very nice Gemini Jets KLM A312 model. Very nice looking aircraft.

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 2):
KL preferred to get rid of them en replace them with longer ranger and bigger B767.

What's odd that KLM usually hangs on to their aircraft about 20 years, except this segment. The a312's were used about 10 years, as were the 763's. I wonder if the a332's will hold out longer than that.
L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
 
FlySSC
Posts: 5192
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:38 am

RE: KLM And The A-310

Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:43 pm

Quoting Magyarorszag (Reply 5):
The two leased to MEA ended up to FX at the end of the lease.

Right.
MEA retired them in Sept & Oct. 1997. They went to FedEx as N443FE & N445FE.
Note also that MEA operated briefly during 7 months in 1996 a third KLM A312 : PH-AGC.
 
Magyarorszag
Posts: 1072
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2005 5:53 am

RE: KLM And The A-310

Tue Nov 21, 2006 7:14 pm

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 7):
Note also that MEA operated briefly during 7 months in 1996 a third KLM A312 : PH-AGC.

Indeed PH-AGC passed by MEA fleet, but from my sources, it was for more than seven months. The lease ran from January 1996 till March 1997.
 
jwenting
Posts: 9973
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2001 10:12 pm

RE: KLM And The A-310

Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:27 am

From an ex-colleague who used to work for KLM Cargo at the time it happened I heard they were extremely unhappy about the poor stability and the requirement for extremely carefull ballancing of loads around the roll axis of the aircraft.
They had A310s come dangerously close to crashing more than once she told me when too many passengers all moved to one side of the aircraft to look at something out the windows, and calculating the load distribution was a real pain (and often led to a lot of space going unused because they couldn't get it ballanced well enough otherwise).

In an all-cargo config that would be less of a problem as there'd be no pax moving left to right and upsetting your calculations so your margin is bigger.
I wish I were flying
 
KL808
Posts: 1534
Joined: Thu May 20, 1999 3:49 am

RE: KLM And The A-310

Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:48 am

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 9):
From an ex-colleague who used to work for KLM Cargo at the time it happened I heard they were extremely unhappy about the poor stability and the requirement for extremely carefull ballancing of loads around the roll axis of the aircraft.
They had A310s come dangerously close to crashing more than once she told me when too many passengers all moved to one side of the aircraft to look at something out the windows, and calculating the load distribution was a real pain (and often led to a lot of space going unused because they couldn't get it ballanced well enough otherwise).

In an all-cargo config that would be less of a problem as there'd be no pax moving left to right and upsetting your calculations so your margin is bigger.

Very interesting. I can't imagine that the weight of pax can actually tip the aircraft to its main landing gear while on the ground.

Groetjes

Drew
AMS-LAX-MNL
 
JJMNGR
Posts: 924
Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 9:06 pm

RE: KLM And The A-310

Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:00 am

Just curiosity, I had the pleasure to fly PH-AGA while Airbus use it to do some demo flights at SAO, operating at CGH airport as at that time GRU was under construction....
 
CHRISBA777ER
Posts: 3715
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2001 12:12 pm

RE: KLM And The A-310

Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:07 am

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 9):
They had A310s come dangerously close to crashing more than once she told me when too many passengers all moved to one side of the aircraft to look at something out the windows

Got to say I think this is a bit or artistic licence by your mate. I know the balance was sensitive, but I have major issues believing that it came dangerously close to crashing when all the pax moved to one side.

Cant see it personally - can anyone prove/disprove this?
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15698
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: KLM And The A-310

Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:14 am

LH, SW, AF, KL, SN all ordered the 312 which was used for short-haul intra-EU flying as well as some regional (but not longhaul) service.

The aircraft's inability to operate longer hauls and to operate off-peak on EU routes limited its appeal.

By and large, the 312's at these carriers (including KL) were replaced by narrow-bodies.

Those EU carriers that also ordered the 313 in addition to the 312 kept their 313 fleets longer as they could be used on longhauls (SW, LH). KL did not operate the 313.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
scalebuilder
Posts: 605
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 10:32 pm

RE: KLM And The A-310

Wed Nov 22, 2006 10:04 am

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 9):
From an ex-colleague who used to work for KLM Cargo at the time it happened I heard they were extremely unhappy about the poor stability and the requirement for extremely carefull ballancing of loads around the roll axis of the aircraft.
They had A310s come dangerously close to crashing more than once she told me when too many passengers all moved to one side of the aircraft to look at something out the windows, and calculating the load distribution was a real pain (and often led to a lot of space going unused because they couldn't get it ballanced well enough otherwise).

That is pretty amazing to learn. Wouldn't a short coming like this when it comes to performance be caught during the testing and certification phase?

Maybe the A-310 is best suited to be a freighter. Does any one know if any A310-200's were actually converted to A-310-300 status as they also went through freighter conversion?

Thanks!

Scalebuilder
Go the extra mile......and avoid the traffic!!!
 
User avatar
Buyantukhaa
Posts: 2301
Joined: Thu May 13, 2004 5:33 am

RE: KLM And The A-310

Wed Nov 22, 2006 9:01 pm

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 9):
They had A310s come dangerously close to crashing more than once she told me when too many passengers all moved to one side of the aircraft to look at something out the windows

Almost impossible, I'd say. If they'd all move to the back, yes, but left or right... They'd still be much too close to the centre of gravity to do anything that the ailerons couldn't compensate. And how often do all passengers move to one side on a European flight anyway?
I scratch my head, therefore I am.
 
bobnwa
Posts: 4486
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2000 12:10 am

RE: KLM And The A-310

Thu Nov 23, 2006 4:47 am

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 9):
They had A310s come dangerously close to crashing more than once she told me when too many passengers all moved to one side of the aircraft to look at something out the windows, and calculating the load distribution was a real pain (and often led to a lot of space going unused because they couldn't get it ballanced well enough otherwise).

I seriously doubt that ever happened. I'll bet your your friend cannot give any details. At least you aren't claiming that Air France did it.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos