A330DAT
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Brussels Airlines' 767 Long Haul Expansion

Tue Nov 21, 2006 8:00 pm

Brussels Airlines is studying the possibility of expanding it's long haul operations with the use of Boeing 767 aircraft.

http://www.brusselsairlines.com/img/snvimg/a319_4.jpg

The long haul preference (between the 767 and A330) for Brussels Airlines is the Airbus A330 because it's cargo capacity is greater than that of the 767. The option to add aditional A330's to the fleet has been ruled out since the aircraft are difficult to find on the market but more importantly and as a result, their lease prices are much too high to even consider operating them. The obvious choice is therefore the 767.

For a while now Brussels Airlines has been wanting to expand it's African network using a fourth aircraft. The 767 would be the answer. Dakar is more of a tourist destination and not as much cargo is transported there than to the rest of Africa. Operating the 767 to Dakar instead of the A330 would allow the A330 to fly to new African routes.

On an operations (practical) level, operating a single Boeing 767 is not a sensible option (look at TUI JetAirFly), therefore several 767's would be needed.

Brussels Airlines is undergoing talks with Thomas Cook and Tui (JetAirFly) to take over their long haul flights and fly on behalf of both tour operators, just as Sabena's former subsidiary Sobelair had done in the past.

Other destinations such as:

Montreal, New York (evening flight), Cincinnati (A319), possibly Boston and Tel Aviv are also being discussed.

For the past few years Brussels Airlines has been faced extremely low load factors on it's European network. 40 out of every 100 seats still remains EMPTY! As an airline you can do two things to improve this:
1) Give away tickets at dumping prices (b-light). This way at least at the end of the year you can say that you're carrying more passengers (good for the public opinion). The little extra cash in hand will always be better than nothing AND you don't have any extra costs to expand or hire more staff.
OR
2) You can expand your long haul network and USE the large European network as a feeder.

The second one is a better option but it always involves more risks. Hiring and training all these new people and leasing aircraft is expensive. What if it doesn't work?
There are always risks in life. Opening the African network also involved a certain risk. To day, this African network is what's keeping Brussels Airlines alive.
What is it going to be, the head in the sand approach or a chance to be successful? What is your opinion?
 
MEA-707
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RE: Brussels Airlines' 767 Long Haul Expansion

Tue Nov 21, 2006 8:36 pm

I am not sure if they should try North America again.
With Amsterdam, Paris, Dusseldorf and London closeby, there are so many options to get to the USA or Canada for around 400 euro.
Same with Bangkok, Tokyo etc. They should remain the niche african carrier.

Re the european flights, the risk with dumping seats to fil up the last 40% of the planes is that it's hard to avoid that people who now pay a premium to be one of the 60% pax will then buy a dumped ticket instead. PR wise it isn't such a big deal. Their premium pax might actually like the fact their flights aren't always packed.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
TriStar500
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RE: Brussels Airlines' 767 Long Haul Expansion

Tue Nov 21, 2006 8:50 pm

Better expand on the basis of your strengths (African routes) than into an already overcrowded market with limited potential for a positive yield development (North America). There are just too many bigger fishes on those routes, who will just price SN out of the market due to the enormous capacities these competitors have available for a price war.
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brightcedars
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RE: Brussels Airlines' 767 Long Haul Expansion

Tue Nov 21, 2006 8:51 pm

I think you know my opinion from other regional forums but I'll state it anyway.

I think the 767-300ER or even 767-400ER are perfectly suited aircraft for SN.

The first is hard to find on the 2nd hand market or thru leasing (at cheap rates), the second can only be bought new from Boeing as I don't think neither CO or DL have any plans to let any of them go. Both will soon no longer be on the product list so any interested party should order asap, delivery can probably be very early. And maybe a deal can be found to have these replaced by 787s as soon as available.

777-200ERs would be sweet too but are too pricey and would make necessary the introduction of another type for thinner non African routes which would be a burden on the cost structure. A330-200s may prove to be the best suitable airplane of all.

As far as cargo is concerned, it's always possible to operate a separate aircraft/fleet to this single purpose.

More generally, there is a structural capital problem at SN. If their operation is only able to break-even every year without providing extra means for investment, the airline will fold. If, in order to prevent this, new capital is needed, it must be found quickly while ensuring returns to the risk takers. Or eventually they will end up with an inefficient fleet and be forced to reduce the size of their operation and again, fold.

I think Boston is a good idea, maybe linked with Montreal. I can't see a BRU-YUL daily be profitable. New York, perhaps. Cincinnati? What for? Tel Aviv, they're already there. What about Cairo, Beirut, Istanbul, Amman? These could feed the European network and Africa+America.
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bwest
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RE: Brussels Airlines' 767 Long Haul Expansion

Tue Nov 21, 2006 8:54 pm

I wonder where you got all that information...

SN really needs to expand their longhaul network, no question about it. They have a pretty ok European network, but for long haul they're mostly a virtual codeshare airline. And I don't think one extra longhaul plane will change that situation that much.

I wonder why they aren't looking at the far east, with the Chinese economy booming and many Belgian businessmen eager to invest in that country. I suppose they'll rely on their partnership with Hainan airlines for some more time and wait and see how the loads on those beijing flights are before deciding on that issue.
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MYT332
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RE: Brussels Airlines' 767 Long Haul Expansion

Tue Nov 21, 2006 9:35 pm

Quoting A330DAT (Thread starter):
Brussels Airlines is undergoing talks with Thomas Cook [and Tui (JetAirFly) to take over their long haul flights

Well TCW only have 6 A320's currently so who does their long haul flying at the moment if at all?

For a moment I did think you meant TCX but since they just took delivery of a third A332 last week, it did seem a bit unlikely!
One Life, Live it.
 
nijltje
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RE: Brussels Airlines' 767 Long Haul Expansion

Tue Nov 21, 2006 10:41 pm

CVG would be great for me....a lot of business people from Belgium are travelling to CVG...so yes please do so...

The A319 make sense as they have the 737 and avro fleet for europe

I see SN going all the way Boeing again...737 and 787....
 
Scorpio
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RE: Brussels Airlines' 767 Long Haul Expansion

Tue Nov 21, 2006 10:46 pm

Quoting Myt332 (Reply 5):
Well TCW only have 6 A320's currently so who does their long haul flying at the moment if at all?

Martinair does the long haul flights.

Quoting A330DAT (Thread starter):
1) Give away tickets at dumping prices (b-light).

Where did you get the idea that tickets sold as 'b-light' are being 'given away at dumping prices'? VEW operated with those kinds of prices for a decade! Just because the prices are lower, doesn't mean they're 'giving them away'.

Quoting A330DAT (Thread starter):
The obvious choice is therefore the 767

Is thios your personal opinion, or is this a reality?
 
ricardofg
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RE: Brussels Airlines' 767 Long Haul Expansion

Tue Nov 21, 2006 11:27 pm

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 1):
I am not sure if they should try North America again.

They already fly BRU-YYZ using Etihad equipment.3x weekly.
 
A330DAT
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RE: Brussels Airlines' 767 Long Haul Expansion

Wed Nov 22, 2006 5:51 am

MEA-707 - You are right, there is lots of competition on the North American routes, however, keeping in mind the amount of passengers transiting through Paris, Amsterdam, London or Frankfurt, there is still enough demand for certain routes to be flown out of Brussels. There are always people who are going to transit through other cities, but there is a market for NON STOP flights as well. The airline operating can even afford to increase the yield, playing with the increased airport taxes otherwise charged when making stopovers in other cities.

Opening North American routes will strengthen the African network by acting as a feeder. Many of this traffic is often lost to competitors such as Air France, who also have a strong African network. This in turn also improves load factors and attracts the high yield passengers to/from the African network.

It is true that the Asian market is also very interesting, however we are talking about the Boeing 767. This means that there is a range problem with this aircraft. A fully loaded 767-300ER with (approx.205-210 passengers) AND cargo can only fly as far as Montreal or New York. This means any destination that is farther will force the fully loaded aircraft to land and refuel making it economically unrealistic. Hainan Airlines flies from Beijing to Brussels non-stop but is weight restricted. This affects the profitability of an airline. To relieve this problem it is not excluded that Brussels Airlines may some day lease A340 aircraft (as more aircraft become available) for such routes as Tokyo, where passenger AND cargo demand is very strong.

Bright Cedars – The 767-400 is not an option. As you said, only Delta and Continental operate them and they have no intention to dispose of them. The 777-200 is much too large for Brussels. It is preferable to fly with smaller aircraft and offer more frequencies to attract the business traveler.

The 787 would be the most suitable aircraft for Brussels Airlines because they have the ideal passenger and cargo capacity with a range to fly you just about anywhere you want to go but unfortunately they are too expensive. New aircraft are not being considered at this time. Some day perhaps…

Yes, there has always been a funding problem at Brussels Airlines. Everything they have always done has always been with the least risk and using as little funds as possible, avoiding competition wherever possible. Sometimes a little guts are needed.

Initially Montreal will not be daily, unless operated by code share partner Etihad (too soon to tell now) or Air Maestro (757). In that case the traffic rights need to be applied for by Brussels Airlines as they will have the sole rights to the Brussels-Montreal traffic on that aircraft (Etihad) or by both carriers (SN and Maestro).
Cincinnati is a very important (high yield business) route.
Tel Aviv is already a Brussels Airlines route but I meant that certain flights can be operated in 767 i.s.o. A319.

Myt332 – Sorry for the misunderstanding. I am talking about Thomas Cook Airlines Belgium here.

Scorpio - B-light tickets are seen as dumping prices because of Brussels Airlines’ cost structure. The airlines cost structure is too high compared to low cost carriers. They would never hold out against an EasyJet or a Ryanair, therefore applying such prices are under SN’s operating break-even.

RicardoFG – They already fly BRU-YYZ in code share with Etihad using Etihad aircraft but the route is not so interesting for Brussels Airlines. There are several reasons for this. One is that this flight is practically always full from Abu Dhabi to Toronto. The seats that are left are sold to SN but that is not much. Another reason is that most passengers traveling from Brussels to Canada go to Montreal, not Toronto. There are about 8,000 passengers a year to Toronto, and 53,000 to Montreal (point to point from Brussels). Most passengers flying on Brussels Airlines to Toronto want to continue to Montreal. Unfortunately by the time the flights land in Toronto (21:45), all connections for Montreal are practically gone and there is no agreement with any other airline for further connections. This is what you get when you let other companies fly for you. You depend entirely on what best suits them (in this case Etihad). You know the saying: "you’re best served if you do it yourself".
 
goldorak
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RE: Brussels Airlines' 767 Long Haul Expansion

Wed Nov 22, 2006 6:03 am

Quoting Nijltje (Reply 6):
CVG would be great for me....a lot of business people from Belgium are travelling to CVG...so yes please do so...



Quoting A330DAT (Reply 9):
Cincinnati is a very important (high yield business) route.

It seems very strange to me that this route would work for SN with only almost only O/D traffic without connection feed especially on the CVG side, as DL is skyteam and it seems unlikely that DL and SN would code-share on this route.
 
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eta unknown
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RE: Brussels Airlines' 767 Long Haul Expansion

Wed Nov 22, 2006 8:29 am

considering the problems Sabena had filling their North American flights- why- repeat- why- would anybody even consider operating them?
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: Brussels Airlines' 767 Long Haul Expansion

Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:34 am

Quoting BrightCedars (Reply 3):
I think Boston is a good idea, maybe linked with Montreal. I can't see a BRU-YUL daily be profitable. New York, perhaps. Cincinnati? What for? Tel Aviv, they're already there. What about Cairo, Beirut, Istanbul, Amman? These could feed the European network and Africa+America.

If they are going to partner with AA like SN did, maybe BRU-DFW could work.
It is what it is...
 
ATLFlyer323
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RE: Brussels Airlines' 767 Long Haul Expansion

Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:52 am

Quoting A330DAT (Thread starter):
Cincinnati (A319)

So are we saying that they plan on operating a A319 across the pond to CVG? People complain enough about flying the 757 across the pond, If I am reading this right why fly to CVG at all if your just going to use a A319?

Thanks,
Brandon
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krist0f
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RE: Brussels Airlines' 767 Long Haul Expansion

Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:27 pm

I really hope SN will look into some flights across to South America some day. I personally would gladly pay a few hundred Euros more for being able to fly direct BRU to GRU because today it's really a pain to get to South America from here.

And I have to agree with ATLFlyer323's previous comment on the A319. I once flew an AC A319 from YUL to YVR and after around 5 hours of flight I was very happy to be able to get out of the plane. Poor people spending 8+ hours flying to CVG on an A319.

Cheers,

Kris.
 
nijltje
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RE: Brussels Airlines' 767 Long Haul Expansion

Wed Nov 22, 2006 6:33 pm

Just put all C seats in that A319....what about the poor people in business Jets...would you complain ?
 
brightcedars
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RE: Brussels Airlines' 767 Long Haul Expansion

Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:21 pm

I'm not sure SN's current A319 fleet has the legs to go all the way to CVG in the first place. After all, they're not A319LRs. And since SN doesn't have the cash for new planes, we can forget the A319 across the pond.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 12):
If they are going to partner with AA like SN did, maybe BRU-DFW could work.

Forgot about that. Chatter seems to prefer MIA to DFW for the next route.
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skyhigh
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RE: Brussels Airlines' 767 Long Haul Expansion

Wed Nov 22, 2006 9:40 pm

It seems like they should focus in strengthening their African network.
Would joining an alliance such as Oneworld be of any advantage to them? It would provide international feed for their African flights (and domestic, should they choose to add flights to USA) .
I have suggested Oneworld as British Airways does not serve many West and Central African countries. Both Skyteam (AF,KL) and Star Alliance (LH,SR) serve more destinations in this area.
 
brightcedars
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RE: Brussels Airlines' 767 Long Haul Expansion

Wed Nov 22, 2006 10:06 pm

This bird looks good in those colors, now let them show us a widebody!
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ATLFlyer323
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RE: Brussels Airlines' 767 Long Haul Expansion

Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:33 pm

Quoting Nijltje (Reply 15):
Just put all C seats in that A319....

And the odds of them doing that are...?

Quoting Nijltje (Reply 15):
what about the poor people in business Jets...would you complain ?

Yeeeaahh I think a private plane is a little different than a commercial one in terms of comfort and service provided. I could be wrong though seeing I have never flown on a Business Jet.

~Brandon
Everyday, the fluffy temptation of wheat!
 
irobertson
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RE: Brussels Airlines' 767 Long Haul Expansion

Thu Nov 23, 2006 12:29 am

I remember checking out SN/Etihad for a YYZ-BRU trip over the summer. If i had booked early, it would have been a fairly good price, and from what I hear, the airplanes are really nice and the service is good, never completely full but usually pretty good ridership.

I personally think a 2-3x weekly trip from YUL would do better. There are strong connections to Belgium, France, and Holland in Quebec and in the eastern Canadian provinces. Their biggest competitor would probably be KLM to AMS but with the right plane and the right frequency, I think that would work.
 
SN-MD11
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RE: Brussels Airlines' 767 Long Haul Expansion

Thu Nov 23, 2006 2:02 am

Latest rumours rather talk about ex VS A340-300. I don't believe in the 767 case. The 767 was a possibility if Camair's takeover would have succeeded. But it's instead a major failure.

SN desperately needs to expand its long-haul, and 4th aircraft will involve a new destination in North America (YUL is highly rumoured but really is this a high yield dest ?). The SN's viability is a profitable long-haul network.

Important factor as wall is that Easyjet will more than probably open up a base in BRU, and for brussels airlines this is VERY dangerous. Also, SN pilots and crews are more than under-paid (same for TUI and TC). EZY would pump a lot of their pilots...
 
quig
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RE: Brussels Airlines' 767 Long Haul Expansion

Thu Nov 23, 2006 4:13 am

Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't JFK one of Sabena's more profitable routes?
 
airbusfanyyz
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RE: Brussels Airlines' 767 Long Haul Expansion

Thu Nov 23, 2006 4:15 am

Quoting RicardoFG (Reply 8):
They already fly BRU-YYZ using Etihad equipment.3x weekly.

Confusing wording in your statement. They codeshare on the EY flight.  Smile
However with strong indications that AUH-YYZ will become a non-stop flight Summer '07 The BRU-YYZ codeshare will terminate.

Cheers,
Kaz
 
RCS763AV
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RE: Brussels Airlines' 767 Long Haul Expansion

Thu Nov 23, 2006 9:50 am

Quoting Krist0f (Reply 14):
it's really a pain to get to South America from here.

Maybe expensive, but a simple connection in ATL, JFK or MAD can get you here every day.

I think it is very reasonable for SN not to take anymore A330s, ase they are indeed expensive to lease, the 767 would be perfect for US routes and YUL, and it would be nice to see Belgian 787s in the future!
 
EddieDude
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RE: Brussels Airlines' 767 Long Haul Expansion

Thu Nov 23, 2006 10:04 am

Quoting A330DAT (Thread starter):
A330's to the fleet has been ruled out since the aircraft are difficult to find on the market but more importantly and as a result, their lease prices are much too high to even consider operating them.

I had the wrong idea that SN had outstanding orders for A330s. Too bad they don't, because I think SN should get more A330s instead of bringing a new type to the fleet.

Quoting Nijltje (Reply 6):
CVG would be great for me....a lot of business people from Belgium are travelling to CVG...

Why is that Nijltje? Any large Belgian corporation with facilities or U.S. headquarters in Cinci?

Quoting Krist0f (Reply 14):
being able to fly direct BRU to GRU because today it's really a pain to get to South America from here

I've heard that too from a good friend of mine who lives in Brussels and flies a lot to Brazil. It seems he prefers to fly TP via LIS because it is the best option in terms of cost, but sometimes he ends up having weird schedules.

Quoting Skyhigh (Reply 17):
It seems like they should focus in strengthening their African network.

Agree completely. Too bad SN does not have enough widebodies.
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AF022
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RE: Brussels Airlines' 767 Long Haul Expansion

Thu Nov 23, 2006 10:48 am

Getting a new aircraft type would be very dangerous for SN. Perhaps they should order a bunch of B787s, and sit on their hands until they arrive.

Yields at YUL are very bad compared to YYZ
 
nijltje
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RE: Brussels Airlines' 767 Long Haul Expansion

Thu Nov 23, 2006 4:46 pm

@eddiedude yes ie P&G, Citigroup, Toyota, HP,.... only those 4 will bring min 15-20 people a day
 
MAH4546
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RE: Brussels Airlines' 767 Long Haul Expansion

Thu Nov 23, 2006 5:06 pm

Quoting BrightCedars (Reply 16):
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 12):
If they are going to partner with AA like SN did, maybe BRU-DFW could work.

Forgot about that. Chatter seems to prefer MIA to DFW for the next route.

If we see AA/SN expand their trans-Atlantic alliance, I think MIA-BRU is a given. Though MIA-BRU has been rumoured on AA for more than six years now.
a.
 
SNBru
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RE: Brussels Airlines' 767 Long Haul Expansion

Thu Nov 23, 2006 10:47 pm

Quoting Krist0f (Reply 14):
I really hope SN will look into some flights across to South America some day. I personally would gladly pay a few hundred Euros more for being able to fly direct BRU to GRU because today it's really a pain to get to South America from here.

Keep on dreaming. At this moment that would be one of the stupiest moves!

An addition of a A343 seems to be another option. No need for hiring different qualified pilots as the current A330 pilots can transfer easily. What is the leasing price of this type at the moment. Fuel costs can be higher, but when the extra range is needed it can be a valid option I think.
 
flyyul
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RE: Brussels Airlines' 767 Long Haul Expansion

Fri Nov 24, 2006 12:47 am

Quoting AF022 (Reply 26):
Yields at YUL are very bad compared to YYZ

And where does this statement come from? Your experience?
 
AF022
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RE: Brussels Airlines' 767 Long Haul Expansion

Fri Nov 24, 2006 12:50 am

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 30):
And where does this statement come from? Your experience?

Yes.
 
A330DAT
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RE: Brussels Airlines' 767 Long Haul Expansion

Fri Nov 24, 2006 1:12 am

Nijltje - Right on! Just put some "C" seats, Privatair and Air france style but that is just on the drawingboard for the time being. No code-share flights with Delta needed on this route, just enough frequencies to attract the business traveller.

Plenty or large companies in Cincinnati indeed, also including General Electric.

skyhigh - Focusing in strengthening the African network is exactly what Brussels Airlines wants to do. Having Oneworld members (or any other for that matter) act as feeders to this African network is hardly practical. What will you do, fly from North America to London first, connect via Brussels to end up in Africa? I don't think so. Competitors will have a good laugh.

The Brussels market is definitely limited when it comes to long haul possibilities, however there are certain routes where there is definite market potential. All these routes are far from being exploited at this moment.

If, for example on a certain route there is a potential for 60,000 passengers a year and, as an airline, you can offer 30,000 seats a year, there will always be passengers transiting through other (neighboring) cities. When time is money, there will always be passengers who would want to pay more to fly direct and this in turn improves the airlines yield.


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flyyul
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RE: Brussels Airlines' 767 Long Haul Expansion

Fri Nov 24, 2006 2:01 am

Quoting AF022 (Reply 31):
Yes.

The yields are not "very bad" compared to Toronto. Then ask AF why they send 3 airplanes with large J cabins here?

Most euro carriers operate 2 class airplanes to both cities.. your statement is ridiculous.

BA does F to YYZ, AF does F to YUL. Everybody else is J/Y.
 
A330DAT
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RE: Brussels Airlines' 767 Long Haul Expansion

Fri Nov 24, 2006 2:06 am

AF022 - FLYYUL - The shear volume of potential traffic between Montreal and Brussels alone, compared to Toronto Brussels is enough to justify (or allow for) higher yields on the YUL-BRU route. I posted an example above.

Air France has 2 flights a day from Montreal to Paris (3 in the summer time). One of the first Air France Airbus A380 destinations will be Montreal. I would say that is quite a success story. There is no reason why Brussels Airlines can not share this success. Not at the same scale of course, but successful just the same.
 
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eta unknown
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RE: Brussels Airlines' 767 Long Haul Expansion

Fri Nov 24, 2006 6:56 am

Reply 22 above...
JFK was not a profitable route for SN- it was a major dog.
Cheers.
 
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bwest
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RE: Brussels Airlines' 767 Long Haul Expansion

Fri Nov 24, 2006 7:03 am

Quoting ETA Unknown (Reply 35):
Reply 22 above...
JFK was not a profitable route for SN- it was a major dog.
Cheers.

Really? I always heard they made money out of it because it was a red-eye flight and other airlines would often rebook their pax on sn flights... or maybe I'm confusing with another flight....
I love my Airport Job! :)
 
AsoRock
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RE: Brussels Airlines' 767 Long Haul Expansion

Fri Nov 24, 2006 10:35 pm

Anyone knows if Lagos is on the potential destinations list? I am not sure why SN hasnt continued to operate to Lagos following the launch of SN Brussels?

Not sure why Swiss International also left the Nigerian market.
 
A330DAT
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RE: Brussels Airlines' 767 Long Haul Expansion

Sat Nov 25, 2006 5:51 pm

AsoRock - Lagos is not being considered simply because there is too much competition on this roure. Brussels Airlines would prefer to concentrate on other Arican destinations. Accra had never been flown in the past (by Sabena) for just the same reason.
 
louA340
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RE: Brussels Airlines' 767 Long Haul Expansion

Mon Nov 27, 2006 2:43 pm

Quoting AsoRock (Reply 37):
Not sure why Swiss International also left the Nigerian market.

Like A330DAT said, there is just too much competition on this route. Unlike airlines like BA, AZ or LH which also have a good number of O and D traffic to add to the transit passengers, Swiss was primarilly transit trafic to North America, Asia, etc. I dont think Swiss was getting high enough traffic they needed to keep the route profitable.
RyEng
 
fd728
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RE: Brussels Airlines' 767 Long Haul Expansion

Mon Nov 27, 2006 6:35 pm

I understand its hard to get A330s and 767s, so what about A300s, maybe even A310s as a short term solution?
 
A330DAT
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Brussels Airlines' 767 Long Haul Expansion

Tue Nov 28, 2006 3:08 am

FD728 - A300's Transatlantic, I don't think so. A310's ok (for the -300) but no descent aircraft available. Too old and too expensive to operate (maintenance). 767 is still the best choice.

It is a fact: A330's are very difficult to find. Airlines that do dispose of their aircraft (Austrian) know this very well and take advantage of the high leasing prices. A340's are slowly beginning to become available (Virgin Atlantic, Iberia...) yet still expensive just the same. At least for the time being. Roughly put, these days you can lease 2 Boeing 767 aircraft for the price of one A330 or A340. Airlines know this and if Brussels Airlines waits too long, those prices will also be unaffordable as more and more 767's are put back into circulation. The 757 is also such an example where the leasing prices were quite interesting. Many airlines have caught on and with retrofits being made, this suddenly becomes interesting to go transatlantic with this aircraft as well.


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The market is in constant movement. Simply put, the more aircraft that are available on the market, the cheaper and v.v. Simple logic.

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elmothehobo
Posts: 968
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:10 am

RE: Brussels Airlines' 767 Long Haul Expansion

Tue Nov 28, 2006 7:57 am

Quoting A330DAT (Reply 9):
A fully loaded 767-300ER with (approx.205-210 passengers) AND cargo can only fly as far as Montreal or New York

The 767-300/ER has much longer legs than that. You start pushing it with when you're talking about flying to the Rockys and the West Coast.

Now a non-ER 767-300 - that's a different story.

SN has been talking about long haul expansion for so long that at this point I have started to ignore the rumors.
 
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bwest
Posts: 1119
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RE: Brussels Airlines' 767 Long Haul Expansion

Wed Nov 29, 2006 9:15 am

Exactly... the rumours about a 4th or more long haul AC have been around for over a year. It's about time they take action...
I love my Airport Job! :)
 
willyj
Posts: 410
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 3:04 am

RE: Brussels Airlines' 767 Long Haul Expansion

Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:35 am

Quoting A330DAT (Reply 32):
skyhigh - Focusing in strengthening the African network is exactly what Brussels Airlines wants to do. Having Oneworld members (or any other for that matter) act as feeders to this African network is hardly practical. What will you do, fly from North America to London first, connect via Brussels to end up in Africa? I don't think so. Competitors will have a good laugh

Or perhaps AA could fly to BRU from JFK and BOS with 752s and ORD, DFW, MIA with 763s??
 
brightcedars
Posts: 751
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:18 pm

RE: Brussels Airlines' 767 Long Haul Expansion

Wed Nov 29, 2006 7:41 pm

Please split the rumors from the reality.

It is a stated fact that SN wants to add a fourth longhaul aircraft to strenghen African operations as they announced it last Spring.

It is rumor to believe they will be adding anything else than an A330-300, and that isn't even a certainly. It is rumor to believe they will operate Montreal.

The thing is they can't find something that suits their shallow pockets. Makes me wonder if they could even sustain their African ops had they not had cheap 9/11 lease rates.
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elmothehobo
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RE: Brussels Airlines' 767 Long Haul Expansion

Thu Nov 30, 2006 3:47 am

As far as new routes, Montreal is a given if they launch flights to North America

Quoting Willyj (Reply 44):
Or perhaps AA could fly to BRU from JFK and BOS with 752s and ORD, DFW, MIA with 763s??

American already flies JFK/ORD-BRU WITH 763s. With BOS being trimmed down I don't think we'll see a BOS-BRU, though I have read here AA was considering that flight with a 757.

DFW/MIA-BRU are only a matter of time. They'd probably launch MIA-BRU at the beginning of the winter schedule and bring DFW online at the beginning of the summer schedule.
 
A330DAT
Topic Author
Posts: 461
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RE: Brussels Airlines' 767 Long Haul Expansion

Thu Nov 30, 2006 7:04 am

Willyj - Yes, perhaps AA could fly from New York and Boston in 752 but once again this would be "waiting" for "someone else" to do the work for you. You are best served if you do it yourself.

Quote:
The thing is they can't find something that suits their shallow pockets. Makes me wonder if they could even sustain their African ops had they not had cheap 9/11 lease rates.

BrightCedars - You're absolutely correct. This says a lot about Brussels Airlines' cost structure. Simply put: Very WEAK
This doesn't change the fact that when you calculate the leasing of 767 aircraft along with hiring, training and maintenance, it is relatively affordable with the yields available and can certainly be a success. If it works for others, there is no reason it shouldn't work for Brussels Airlines. This is an opportunity which needs to be exploited.
There is one important factor we are forgetting! There is a new wave of managers at Brussels Airlines. It will be about time they realize the full "Long Haul" potential. It's about time don't you think? If you think long haul has low yields, wait until more and more low cost carriers make their entrance in the European (or even African) scene. Then what?


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A330DAT
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RE: Brussels Airlines' 767 Long Haul Expansion

Fri Dec 01, 2006 1:57 am

ElmoTheHobo - Logan airport had been contacting American and Delta for the Brussels route. MIA haden't been started due to other priorities but is indeed another option (for AA, not Brussels Airlines that is). But, seeing the weight restrictions on this route (767), the same revenue problems will arise. A larger aircraft is not an option.
 
elmothehobo
Posts: 968
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RE: Brussels Airlines' 767 Long Haul Expansion

Fri Dec 01, 2006 3:22 am

Quoting A330DAT (Reply 48):
But, seeing the weight restrictions on this route (767), the same revenue problems will arise. A larger aircraft is not an option.

MIA-BRU is under 5000 miles, I doubt that there will be a weight restriction. If it's a 767-300, then yes, but a AA flies 767-300/ERs transatlantic.

Quoting A330DAT (Reply 48):
Logan airport had been contacting American and Delta for the Brussels route

MASSPORT shot itself in the foot by forcing carriers to use Terminal E for international arrivals. Delta for one wasn't too please by that decision, as its Skyteam partners AF and AZ can't use their brand new terminal.

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