Thorben
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Aeroflot To Get 45 A320s And 45 Long-haul Planes

Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:34 am

Holy sh..

http://www.finanznachrichten.de/nach...ichten-2006-11/artikel-7343608.asp

Will the Russian government allow this? And what will they do with 45 long-haul aircraft? Well, the Russian economy is booming.
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bringiton
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Aeroflot To Get 45 A320s And 45 Long-haul Planes

Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:38 am

I think the Plan to purchase 22 787's and 22 A350's has allready been made by aeroflot and is up for approval by the board therefore the widebody order was largely expected !!
 
NYC777
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Aeroflot To Get 45 A320s And 45 Long-haul Planes

Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:40 am

Quite vague. The A320s aren't a surprise. They could have increased frequencies throughout the CIS, Europe, and into Asia. I won't be surprised if the 45 long hauls are 22 787s and 22 A350 (I know it doesn't add up to 45 so maybe they order 44 long haul) as had been discussed previously.
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Boogyjay
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Aeroflot To Get 45 A320s And 45 Long-haul Planes

Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:44 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 2):
22 787s and 22 A350 (I know it doesn't add up to 45

No it's in conformity with what the original quote states :

[QUOTE]
'We intend to acquire 40-45 long-haul planes,' Okulov told Russia's Ria Novosti in Vienna.
[/UNQUOTE]
 
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Stitch
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Aeroflot To Get 45 A320s And 45 Long-haul Planes

Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:47 am

Yup. As SU already flies Airbus narrowbodies, choosing them again is logical.

45 widebodies would allow SU to order 22 787s and then LoI 22 A350XWBs. If SU needs planes before the A350XWB is available, SU can add more 787s and/or 777s, then SU can decide for the remaining widebodies to continue with Boeing or add A350XWBs once they become available. And even if they do go all-Boeing for the widebodies, they still keep the EU happy thanks to the large narrowbody order (plus any future narrowbody add-ons).
 
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solnabo
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Aeroflot To Get 45 A320s And 45 Long-haul Planes

Wed Nov 22, 2006 4:08 am

Who dont SU go for more Il 96-300 in the w-body section?

Wooow, 45 A32X! Way to go SU...

Micke//  bigthumbsup 
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bringiton
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Aeroflot To Get 45 A320s And 45 Long-haul Planes

Wed Nov 22, 2006 4:17 am

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 5):
Wooow, 45 A32X! Way to go SU...

They would have to pull their sleaves up and really work on this because the A320 might not be available in the 2020-2030 timeframe  Wink
 
KL808
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Aeroflot To Get 45 A320s And 45 Long-haul Planes

Wed Nov 22, 2006 4:20 am

I hope they consider getting some A318's as there are a lot of routes it can be deployed on practically in the SU network.

Drew
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Thorben
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Aeroflot To Get 45 A320s And 45 Long-haul Planes

Wed Nov 22, 2006 4:47 am

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 5):
Who dont SU go for more Il 96-300 in the w-body section?

Good idea.  Wink

After they let the 787 options expire and after that state-owned bank from Russia bought the 5% stake of EADS - I can see them going only for the A350, with some A330s for the interim period.
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MCOflyer
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Aeroflot To Get 45 A320s And 45 Long-haul Planes

Wed Nov 22, 2006 4:55 am

Quoting KL808 (Reply 7):
I hope they consider getting some A318's as there are a lot of routes it can be deployed on practically in the SU network.

I 100% agree.

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Aeroflot To Get 45 A320s And 45 Long-haul Planes

Wed Nov 22, 2006 4:57 am

Quoting Thorben (Reply 8):
After they let the 787 options expire and after that state-owned bank from Russia bought the 5% stake of EADS - I can see them going only for the A350, with some A330s for the interim period

Boeing extended the offer for the 787 to December 1, after a WTO agreement between the US and Russia was reached.
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A342
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Aeroflot To Get 45 A320s And 45 Long-haul Planes

Wed Nov 22, 2006 5:00 am

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 5):
Who dont SU go for more Il 96-300 in the w-body section?

They already burn more fuel than a 763ER, while not having added capabilities. So you can imagine, compared to the 787 or A350, they would be at a huge disadvantage.


The narrowbody order is hardly surprising, they have some 27 Tu-154Ms to be replaced. They already stated before that they want more A32Ss.



A342
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CRJ900
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Aeroflot To Get 45 A320s And 45 Long-haul Planes

Wed Nov 22, 2006 5:38 am

Will they all be A320-200 or will they split the order between A319, A320 and A321? If they split between Toulouse and Finkenwerder they may get them twice as fast...
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jimyvr
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Aeroflot To Get 45 A320s And 45 Long-haul Planes

Wed Nov 22, 2006 5:56 am

Quoting Thorben (Thread starter):
Will the Russian government allow this? And what will they do with 45 long-haul aircraft? Well, the Russian economy is booming.

Eventually these A320s will not all be based in Moscow.

Some will be based in Arkhangelsk (Aeroflot-Nord), Rostov (Aeroflot-Don), Khabarovsk (Dalavia) and Yuzhno-Sakhalinsk (SAT).

Especially the latter 2 signed deal with Aeroflot to cooperate which eventually workings towards a merger.

[Edited 2006-11-21 21:58:04]
1000 - 01MAR07 | http://airlineroute.blogspot.com/
 
imiakhtar
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Aeroflot To Get 45 A320s And 45 Long-haul Planes

Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:42 pm

If SU was to go for the 787 and A350 combination, what do you think their engine selection would be?
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irobertson
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Aeroflot To Get 45 A320s And 45 Long-haul Planes

Thu Nov 23, 2006 12:16 am

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 5):
Who dont SU go for more Il 96-300 in the w-body section?

I think they've been waiting a while for a -400 version of the IL96, but A342 might know a bit more about that than I. I would hope that it would be more fuel efficient but we were talking about max capacity range figures from Ilyushin and they're a touch confusing... Hate to say it, but they might be better off putting in for the A350 or 787 and taking A340s or 777s or something in the mean time...

(I can't believe i just suggested they take 777s in the mean time...!  Wink I think the A340 would look fantastic in Aeroflot colors though, just as the IL96 does.)
 
Tancrede
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Aeroflot To Get 45 A320s And 45 Long-haul Planes

Thu Nov 23, 2006 2:22 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 4):
And even if they do go all-Boeing for the widebodies, they still keep the EU happy thanks to the large narrowbody order (plus any future narrowbody add-ons).

Sorry, but I do not understand fully this remark. Are you funny or sarcastic?
 
F4N
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Aeroflot To Get 45 A320s And 45 Long-haul Planes

Thu Nov 23, 2006 2:38 am

Tancrede:

I don't believe he is being either. What he is suggesting is that Russians, like the Chinese, tend to do business with both frame-makers in order to be able to leverage purchases like large a/c to their advantage when dealing with both the EU and the US. Since they already have a fleet of A320's, it makes sense to buy more. They can go Boeing for the larger a/c.

Nothing unusual about it.

F4N
 
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FYODOR
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Aeroflot To Get 45 A320s And 45 Long-haul Planes

Thu Nov 23, 2006 2:56 am

Well, there is no any 'permission' requested for non-Russian planes buying. The problem is the custom fee which is 20% of the plane plus VAT 18%. So just add 38% to the price. But you can be granted by the exception from the rules and Government can allow you not to pay 20%. Such privilage only AFLT and TSO have. For AFLT there is also the problem that state owns 51% of it and for deals like that decision of the Board of Direcors is needed. But you need to consider that Russian Government is not monolite mechanism. There are a lot of different ideas inside - supporting and not AFLT management plans.

As about Il-96 - it was compromise decision - AFLT got 20%-fee out for the promise to by Il-96. They still should buy 6 Il-96 but AFLT resist it as strong as they can. On the other hand Ministry for Industry and Energy is the one of the centers of lobbists activity for Il-96.
 
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Stitch
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Aeroflot To Get 45 A320s And 45 Long-haul Planes

Thu Nov 23, 2006 2:57 am

Quoting Tancrede (Reply 16):
Sorry, but I do not understand fully this remark. Are you funny or sarcastic?

Neither.

SU's principles are on record that they want the 787. However, the Russian Government, which must approve and/or finance the order, has not allowed them to do so for "quid pro quo" reasons.

The "quid pro quo" they want(ed) from the USA was membership in the WTO.

The "quid pro quo" they want from the EU is (at least) a voting stake in EADS.

The USA has completed their side of the bargain, and allowed Russia to enter the WTO. Russia is now kind of "on the hook" to reciprocate with a 22 frame 787 order. However, this then doesn't give Russia anything to hold over the EU's head. Hence, the recent rumors - and now confirmation - that SU would order 45 planes. That way, Boeing and SU get their 22 787s and Russia can continue to dangle an equal order for A350XWBs in front of the EU.

That being said, with the A350XWB now being delayed to the middle of the 2010's (at the earliest), depending on how SU's capacity needs shake out, the A350XWB may not be available to meet them. In such a case, SU may be forced to take additional 787 frames. And in an extreme case, the A350XWB may be so delayed that it is not available, period, when SU needs them.

In such a case, SU still has a 45-frame A320 family order "on the books", in addition to all the A320 family planes they have already bought and any additional A320 family frames they may need beyond this latest 45. So even if Airbus never sells SU an A350XWB, Airbus has still received strong financial support from SU through the sale of narrowbodies. And that strong financial support can be (and will be) leveraged by the Russian government when they desire something from the EU.

That was the point of my statement.  Smile
 
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solnabo
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Aeroflot To Get 45 A320s And 45 Long-haul Planes

Thu Nov 23, 2006 4:41 am

@ Stitch

So this is a win-win situation for SU, right?

Micke//  Wink
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A342
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Aeroflot To Get 45 A320s And 45 Long-haul Planes

Thu Nov 23, 2006 5:56 am

Quoting Irobertson (Reply 15):
I think they've been waiting a while for a -400 version of the IL96, but A342 might know a bit more about that than I.

Thank you.  Wink

I don't think they want the -400. It can carry its maximum payload only 5600km. For SU, this means: From SVO, its range covers India, Europe and the Middle East. But they also want to fly the aircraft to East Asia, and so, if they want additional IL-96s, then they'll chose the -300.
Also, the phase-out of the 777 shows they don't need very large aircraft.

Quoting Irobertson (Reply 15):
Hate to say it, but they might be better off putting in for the A350 or 787

I agree.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
RedChili
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Aeroflot To Get 45 A320s And 45 Long-haul Planes

Thu Nov 23, 2006 6:22 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 11):
Quoting Solnabo (Reply 5):
Who dont SU go for more Il 96-300 in the w-body section?

They already burn more fuel than a 763ER,

... and spend more time in maintenance and less time in the air.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 19):
That being said, with the A350XWB now being delayed to the middle of the 2010's (at the earliest), depending on how SU's capacity needs shake out, the A350XWB may not be available to meet them. In such a case, SU may be forced to take additional 787 frames.

Or they could lease A330s for an interim period (SU really doesn't need the range of the A340).

Quoting A342 (Reply 21):
Also, the phase-out of the 777 shows they don't need very large aircraft.

Aeroflot has actually for many years been flying the IL86 with more seats than a 777. The 777 was never the biggest airplane in Aeroflot's fleet, but it was the only airplane that Aeroflot had only two copies of. At that time, Aeroflot operated a long-haul fleet of 772, 763, A310, IL96, and IL62. They saved a lot of money by simplifying the fleet to only 763s and IL96s.

Aeroflot really needs large aircraft today. You have to remember that Aeroflot is the largest airline based in the biggest city in Europe, where most passengers are not spoiled by being able to choose between multiple departures every day. Transaero flies 747s today, and I believe that they have great success. If Transaero can fill a 747, then Aeroflot (with a much larger network) should be able to fill even an A380.
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Stitch
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RE: Aeroflot To Get 45 A320s And 45 Long-haul Planes

Thu Nov 23, 2006 6:53 am

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 20):
So this is a win-win situation for SU, right?

I see it as such. SU would get the widebodies they want - the 787 - and continue to get the narrowbodies they want - the A320 family.

And once the A350XWB becomes available, they could add a modern large widebody to their fleet and 22 frames would take care of the scheduling issues they had with only 2 777s.

Quoting RedChili (Reply 22):
Or they could lease A330s for an interim period (SU really doesn't need the range of the A340).

True.

Quoting A342 (Reply 21):
Also, the phase-out of the 777 shows they don't need very large aircraft.

They very much need them. As RedChili notes above me, two planes were not enough for SU to efficiently schedule with.
 
A342
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RE: Aeroflot To Get 45 A320s And 45 Long-haul Planes

Thu Nov 23, 2006 11:56 pm

Quoting RedChili (Reply 22):
Aeroflot has actually for many years been flying the IL86 with more seats than a 777. The 777 was never the biggest airplane in Aeroflot's fleet, but it was the only airplane that Aeroflot had only two copies of. At that time, Aeroflot operated a long-haul fleet of 772, 763, A310, IL96, and IL62. They saved a lot of money by simplifying the fleet to only 763s and IL96s.

Yes, but remember, the IL-86 was for shorter range holiday charters and domestic flights. BTW, SU still has the IL-62, flying them to LAD and GDX, these are at least the destinations I know of.

Quoting RedChili (Reply 22):
Aeroflot really needs large aircraft today. You have to remember that Aeroflot is the largest airline based in the biggest city in Europe, where most passengers are not spoiled by being able to choose between multiple departures every day. Transaero flies 747s today, and I believe that they have great success. If Transaero can fill a 747, then Aeroflot (with a much larger network) should be able to fill even an A380.



Quoting Stitch (Reply 23):
They very much need them.

OK, point taken, but the IL-96-400 is the wrong aircraft.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Aeroflot To Get 45 A320s And 45 Long-haul Planes

Fri Nov 24, 2006 12:45 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 24):
OK, point taken, but the IL-96-400 is the wrong aircraft.

No argument there.  Smile

SU is much better off with the 772ER/772LR if they need it "now" or the 787-10 or A350XWB-900 if they need it "later".
 
Titch
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RE: Aeroflot To Get 45 A320s And 45 Long-haul Planes

Fri Nov 24, 2006 12:47 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 24):
BTW, SU still has the IL-62, flying them to LAD and GDX, these are at least the destinations I know of.

Are you sure about this?

There are plenty of IL-62's rotting away at various locations in full Aeroflot colours, but as far as I'm aware, SU hasn't operated the type since 2003.

I spent a week in Moscow in August of this year, and can confirm that SU were certainly not operating any IL-62's for the entire time that I was there.


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A342
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RE: Aeroflot To Get 45 A320s And 45 Long-haul Planes

Fri Nov 24, 2006 4:18 am

Quoting Titch (Reply 26):
Are you sure about this?

Yes. Just have a look at the SVO-LAD and SVO-GDX schedules at Amadeus.

www.amadeus.net
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RedChili
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RE: Aeroflot To Get 45 A320s And 45 Long-haul Planes

Fri Nov 24, 2006 8:18 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 24):
Yes, but remember, the IL-86 was for shorter range holiday charters and domestic flights.

Most IL86 routes were between two and five hours long, although once I was on an almost empty IL86 flying nonstop SVO-KHV (I was so surprised, I didn't think it had the range to do it nonstop even if it was almost empty). In my opinion, the perfect replacement for the IL86 would be the A333 with a couple of rows of business class in the front, and the rest for economy.

Quoting A342 (Reply 24):
BTW, SU still has the IL-62, flying them to LAD and GDX, these are at least the destinations I know of.

I believe that this route is operated by a wet leased aircraft belonging to Rossiya, but I'm not 100 percent sure.
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EI321
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RE: Aeroflot To Get 45 A320s And 45 Long-haul Planes

Fri Nov 24, 2006 8:32 am

Quoting RedChili (Reply 22):
If Transaero can fill a 747, then Aeroflot (with a much larger network) should be able to fill even an A380

Oh sh_t, you have just started yet another SU roumer!  Smile

Quoting Titch (Reply 26):
Are you sure about this?

There are plenty of IL-62's rotting away at various locations in full Aeroflot colours, but as far as I'm aware, SU hasn't operated the type since 2003.

AKAIK they do actually still own one or two IL62 frames but they dont fly often.

Quoting RedChili (Reply 28):
In my opinion, the perfect replacement for the IL86 would be the A333 with a couple of rows of business class in the front, and the rest for economy.

I think the A330 could have huge potential for Aeroflot, as well as the amalgamated airlines. There is potential to replace the entire IL86, IL62, and even 763 fleets with a mix of A332 and A333 (yes guys I know they are getting more 767s).
 
RedChili
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RE: Aeroflot To Get 45 A320s And 45 Long-haul Planes

Fri Nov 24, 2006 8:43 am

Quoting EI321 (Reply 29):
Oh sh_t, you have just started yet another SU roumer!

It was never my intention to start a rumor about Aeroflot getting the A380. Personally, I believe that they will not get that aircraft, but that's not because the airplane is too big for them. Russia has experienced a big boom in airplane traffic during the past few years, and as long as SVO has only two runways which are too close to each other to be used simultaneously, SU has big slot problems at their home base.

Quoting EI321 (Reply 29):
I think the A330 could have huge potential for Aeroflot, as well as the amalgamated airlines.

As far as I know, none of the "Aeroflot-Dons" and "Aeroflot-Nords" have any widebodies at all. I believe that the Tu-214 of Dalavia is the biggest airplane operated by any of the SU partners in Russia. These airlines operate a few very long and very thin routes, and in my opinion the 757 would be perfect for them.
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FYODOR
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RE: Aeroflot To Get 45 A320s And 45 Long-haul Planes

Fri Nov 24, 2006 4:33 pm

Well, it will be inetersting to see the development of contract with Airbus in light of Russia-EU wrecked summit in Finland. Can it be the point for discussion like with US regarding Boeing on WTO issue? On a one hand - reaction in Russia outwardly restrained but negative indeed (as I know for example there are discussion to ban all EU meat import to Russia), on the other - with the forum with no actual agenda might be it will be more time to talk about EADS.  Wink