dhefty
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Has Boeing Evened The Narrow-Body Race?

Wed Nov 22, 2006 12:12 pm

http://www.eads.com/xml/content/OF00000000400004/2/21/41498212.pdf

http://active.boeing.com/commercial/...pageid=m25065&RequestTimeout=20000


Since 2003 Airbus has out-produced Boeing in the narrow-body market each year, and continues to do so through October of 2006. With the demise of the 757 and 717, one would expect the situation to worsen for Boeing.

Looking at the above referenced data, however, a somewhat different picture seems to emerge. When considering the 737 versus A320 series, Boeing has increased their production rate from 14.4 per month in 2003 to 25.1 in 2006, whereas Airbus has gone from 19.4 to 27.6 per month during the same time frame.

What I have begun to notice is the continuing surge in Boeing production. For instance, in August Boeing led 27-26, in September 29-27 and in the latest month of October by 28-27.

Airbus has recently announced production increases to 36 per month by December 2008, 25 months from now. Will Boeing do the same, or perhaps go beyond those forecasts, now that the second 737 line is in operation?

Since Boeing has recovered dramatically in the wide-body market and seems guaranteed to exceed Airbus in production of them for several years, the title of "largest manufacturer" seems to hang in the balance, with narrow-body production the key to success in bragging rights.

Any comments?
 
mpdpilot
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RE: Has Boeing Evened The Narrow-Body Race?

Wed Nov 22, 2006 1:07 pm

I maybe way off base but I put the 737 and A320 in the same place when it comes to cost. some airlines the 737 will be cheaper to operate and for some airlines the A320 will provide better cost savings. When it comes to the production I also put them in the same group. Boeing may lag for a year but the next they will make up for that. going off your tittle I would say yes boeing has evened it up and quite well I might add. I think that for all intensive purposes the 737 and A320 are about the same, with minor differences in operational efficiencies that vary with the operator.
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TrijetsRMissed
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RE: Has Boeing Evened The Narrow-Body Race?

Wed Nov 22, 2006 1:14 pm

Quoting Dhefty (Thread starter):
Since Boeing has recovered dramatically in the wide-body market and seems guaranteed to exceed Airbus in production of them for several years, the title of "largest manufacturer" seems to hang in the balance, with narrow-body production the key to success in bragging rights.

Any comments?

Well the 777 has been outselling the A330/340 aircraft and the 737 like you stated is pretty close to neck and neck with the A320. Personally, I would have liked to see Boeing continue production of the 757 and especially the 717, which was never well marketed. They probably feel every airline that would want the 757 already has a lot of them and the 753 did not exactly sell like hotcakes. Stopping the 717 line is pretty much waving the white flag to Embraer for the 100 seater jets.
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dhefty
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RE: Has Boeing Evened The Narrow-Body Race?

Wed Nov 22, 2006 1:38 pm

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 2):
the 737 like you stated is pretty close to neck and neck with the A320.

True as far as production is concerned, but if you check the backlog, Airbus has a substantial lead of 1825 to 1442. This may mean that Airbus takes more "soft" orders, (IndiGo comes to mind) or it may mean that they have the ability to increase production with less fear.

In other words, Airbus may be more bullish on the narrow-body market than Boeing. It wasn't too long ago that Boeing got into a jam by ramping production faster than the supply chain or the factory could handle, so they may be a little gun-shy.
 
TrijetsRMissed
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RE: Has Boeing Evened The Narrow-Body Race?

Wed Nov 22, 2006 1:44 pm

Quoting Dhefty (Reply 3):
True as far as production is concerned, but if you check the backlog, Airbus has a substantial lead of 1825 to 1442.

Is that A320 vs 737NG? I think there are several thousand 737's built. Comparing the A320's higher numbers to the 737NG is misleading because the first A320's were around about 10 years before the 737NG aircraft hit the market.
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BoomBoom
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RE: Has Boeing Evened The Narrow-Body Race?

Wed Nov 22, 2006 1:51 pm

Boeing underwent a cost cutting program, implemented a moving assembly line and a"just in time" inventory system.

These changes allowed them to get agressive in pricing and still make a profit.
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dhefty
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RE: Has Boeing Evened The Narrow-Body Race?

Wed Nov 22, 2006 1:55 pm

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 4):
Is that A320 vs 737NG? I think there are several thousand 737's built. Comparing the A320's higher numbers to the 737NG is misleading because the first A320's were around about 10 years before the 737NG aircraft hit the market.

Sorry if I was misleading, but when I refer to backlog it means units that have been ordered but not yet produced. Boeing uses the term "unfilled orders".

As far as comparing the installed base of 737 versus A320 series, you are quite correct. Boeing has produced 5217 737's of all types versus 2907 of the A320 series.
 
bringiton
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RE: Has Boeing Evened The Narrow-Body Race?

Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:10 pm

I think the Backlog is healthy for both boeing and airbus. The title of the "LARGEST PRODUCER" is something that is important but not the only thing that is important. Boeing has quite a significant gap over airbus when it comes to VALUE of the TOTAL BACKLOG (NB's+WB's) and there impressive WB sales have meant that they are earning good profit. Boeing's stock price shot above 90$ yesterday and they are winning orders like crazy heck they might even get a second consecutive 1000 order year and the momentum isnt looking to die down with some bluchip customers still waiting to place orders. No matter what the other competitor does (vis-a-vis pricing) over the next 2-5 years the NB market will pretty much be split even until one of these guys imbarks on a new aircraft .
 
TrijetsRMissed
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RE: Has Boeing Evened The Narrow-Body Race?

Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:17 pm

Quoting Bringiton (Reply 7):
No matter what the other competitor does (vis-a-vis pricing) over the next 2-5 years the NB market will pretty much be split even until one of these guys imbarks on a new aircraft .

I predict the 787 will be more successful than the proposed A350. The A380 is a given, already looking like a failure. This should put Boeing back ahead.
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bringiton
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RE: Has Boeing Evened The Narrow-Body Race?

Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:19 pm

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 8):
This should put Boeing back ahead

It should take another 1-2 years to happen (interms of deliveries) . Until the A350 goes active in 2013-2014 the 787/777 combo will deliver much more then the 330/340 combo and that will be the biggest contributer.
 
futurecaptain
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RE: Has Boeing Evened The Narrow-Body Race?

Wed Nov 22, 2006 2:32 pm

Quoting Dhefty (Thread starter):
the title of "largest manufacturer" seems to hang in the balance,

No hanging. Boeing and Airbus dont hold a candle to Cessna. In the largest manufacturer race both A and B lose, C wins.  Smile
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dhefty
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RE: Has Boeing Evened The Narrow-Body Race?

Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:27 pm

Quoting Bringiton (Reply 9):
It should take another 1-2 years to happen (interms of deliveries) . Until the A350 goes active in 2013-2014 the 787/777 combo will deliver much more then the 330/340 combo and that will be the biggest contributer.

Yes, it probably will happen in 2008, however is there a chance that Boeing could reclaim the lead in deliveries in 2007?

If Boeing matches or exceeds Airbus in narrow-bodies, as seems to be happening in the last 3 months, then it all comes down to wide-body production.

Next year will be a low year for Airbus in wide-bodies, with A300 production ending in June, A340 at a low rate, A380 starting at only 1, and A330 staying at around 60.

I believe Boeing could possibly regain the lead in 2007.
 
sstsomeday
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RE: Has Boeing Evened The Narrow-Body Race?

Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:30 pm

Quoting Dhefty (Thread starter):
Since Boeing has recovered dramatically in the wide-body market and seems guaranteed to exceed Airbus in production of them for several years, the title of "largest manufacturer" seems to hang in the balance, with narrow-body production the key to success in bragging rights.

There's no question the 320 continues to do extremely well, as does the 737. But, "number" of total frames in the backlog of either manufacturer not withstanding...

Quoting Bringiton (Reply 7):
Boeing has quite a significant gap over airbus when it comes to VALUE of the TOTAL BACKLOG (NB's+WB's)

 checkmark 

If I recall directly, Boeing's 2005 sales were 10% greater in value than Airbus', even though Airbus sold a larger number of A/C (although, based on when and how they Airbus count sales - that figure may also be debatable.) Boeing's lead may remain unchallenged until Airbus gets it's 380 production into high gear and the 350 is coming out the door.
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airfrnt
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RE: Has Boeing Evened The Narrow-Body Race?

Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:41 pm

Quoting Dhefty (Reply 3):

True as far as production is concerned, but if you check the backlog, Airbus has a substantial lead of 1825 to 1442. This may mean that Airbus takes more "soft" orders, (IndiGo comes to mind) or it may mean that they have the ability to increase production with less fear.

IIRC, I looked at the production numbers a few weeks ago, and I thought it was considerably tighter then that (remember that Airbus has a nasty habit of leaving canceled or dubious orders on their public lists for a bit).

I believe it was Meryll Lynch who did a actual delivery date analysis. Right now the A320 has 2-3 months more production then the B737. That's it. That's as close as you get in this business. The A330 has declining production till 2013, the A340 orders will be gone as of 2011. (And the downward trend on the graph there is not pretty at all).
 
dhefty
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RE: Has Boeing Evened The Narrow-Body Race?

Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:57 pm

Quoting AirFRNT (Reply 13):
IIRC, I looked at the production numbers a few weeks ago, and I thought it was considerably tighter then that (remember that Airbus has a nasty habit of leaving canceled or dubious orders on their public lists for a bit).

I believe it was Meryll Lynch who did a actual delivery date analysis. Right now the A320 has 2-3 months more production then the B737. That's it. That's as close as you get in this business. The A330 has declining production till 2013, the A340 orders will be gone as of 2011. (And the downward trend on the graph there is not pretty at all).

That was before the monster month of October, when Airbus added 277 A320 series orders. That alone represents 10 months of production at current rates, helped along by another 150 frame order from China and 65 from startup SkyBus of Columbus, Ohio. Other than that you are correct.
 
legoguy
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RE: Has Boeing Evened The Narrow-Body Race?

Wed Nov 22, 2006 5:23 pm

Aeroflot are possibly planning to order 45 aircraft from the a320 series. There is a thread about it just started.
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planemaker
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RE: Has Boeing Evened The Narrow-Body Race?

Wed Nov 22, 2006 6:35 pm

Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 10):
No hanging. Boeing and Airbus dont hold a candle to Cessna. In the largest manufacturer race both A and B lose, C wins.

You might want to reconsider your statement!  Smile
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Johnny
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RE: Has Boeing Evened The Narrow-Body Race?

Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:41 pm

TrijetsRmissed
"Well the 777 has been outselling the A330/340 aircraft..."

THIS is only a Airliners.net-rumour.

Check the figures...


Johnny
 
F4N
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RE: Has Boeing Evened The Narrow-Body Race?

Wed Nov 22, 2006 9:24 pm

To all:

I'm not sure that Boeing has the same impetus to seek the "top dog" title which the 2 frame-makers have coveted over the years. Boeing's management is now run by an "outsider"(McNerney), who does not seem inclined to do anything which
does not make sense with regard to the business. I do not see Boeing rushing to
increase production for the sole purpose of shipping more a/c. At the moment, Airbus has an entirely different set of motivations to increase production which are not necessarily restricted to delivering more than Boeing.

F4N
 
futurecaptain
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RE: Has Boeing Evened The Narrow-Body Race?

Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:30 pm

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 16):

You might want to reconsider your statement!

Should I? Here are the numbers I have found for 2005 deiveries of aircraft.

Aircraft delivered in 2005
Cessna 1157
Cirrus 600
Airbus 378
Raytheon 354
Diamond 329
Boeing 300
Piper 233
Bombardier, Embrader, everyone else even less.
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airfrnt
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RE: Has Boeing Evened The Narrow-Body Race?

Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:34 pm

Quoting Johnny (Reply 17):
"Well the 777 has been outselling the A330/340 aircraft..."

THIS is only a Airliners.net-rumour.

Check the figures...

I am assuming this is a bit tongue in cheek.

But in case it has not from Fitch's recent analysis:

Quote:

Out of a total backlog of 265, the 777 has 246 in
backlog that are expected to be delivered by the end
of 2012 (planned A350XWB first delivery), while
Airbus has only 58 A340s in backlog as of Oct. 12,
2006. Subsequently Emirates cancelled a $2.3 billion
(catalog value) firm order for 10 A340-600s due to
disappointment with another A340 version. (source:
Wall Street Journal Europe). In the two years
preceding Oct. 12, 2006, the A340 generated only 39
orders versus 210 for the 777.

As far as the 330 goes:

Quote:

Without the original A350 to replace it, the A330 will
probably continue to struggle on, with orders
declining to 21 so far this year (62 in 2005) versus
134 thus far in 2006 for the 787 (232 in 2005). Future
orders probably will be limited to existing customers
(such as the recent Lufthansa order), and carriers that
need an aircraft of this size, but are not willing to
wait for the 787. This last point could be significantly
undercut by the possibility of Boeing adding a second
production line for the 787, which has often been
mentioned as under consideration.



Quoting Dhefty (Reply 14):
That was before the monster month of October, when Airbus added 277 A320 series orders. That alone represents 10 months of production at current rates, helped along by another 150 frame order from China and 65 from startup SkyBus of Columbus, Ohio. Other than that you are correct.

The bulk of these orders being a quid pro quo for a China line, and a large portion for a new LCC applicant (why do people think that the airline business is a good business to get involved with?) My suspicion is that neither will have a large effect on the backlog at the European lines. I could be wrong about the skybus order however.
 
futurecaptain
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RE: Has Boeing Evened The Narrow-Body Race?

Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:46 pm

Quoting Johnny (Reply 17):
"Well the 777 has been outselling the A330/340 aircraft..."

According to justplanes.com for aircraft orders in 2006

Airbus
A330 - 42
A340 - 5

Boeing
777 - 77

So, the 777 has sold 30 more a/c than the A330/340 family has this year according to one web site.
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Johnny
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RE: Has Boeing Evened The Narrow-Body Race?

Thu Nov 23, 2006 12:07 am

@ Futurecaptain

he was not referring to 2006.It was a general statement from him.


 Smile
 
Gr8Circle
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RE: Has Boeing Evened The Narrow-Body Race?

Thu Nov 23, 2006 12:38 am

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 8):
The A380 is a given, already looking like a failure.

I wonder how you got away with this one.....the Euro crowd probably missed it.... Big grin
 
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Stitch
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RE: Has Boeing Evened The Narrow-Body Race?

Thu Nov 23, 2006 12:45 am

The A320 is certainly the brightest member in Airbus' current portfolio of aircraft and the recent planned increases in production (as well as moving the Chinese deliveries to their own dedicated line) should both bring in more cash for Airbus as well as give them the ability to win some sales thanks to earlier then planned future delivery slots.
 
DAYflyer
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RE: Has Boeing Evened The Narrow-Body Race?

Thu Nov 23, 2006 12:45 am

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 4):
Is that A320 vs 737NG? I think there are several thousand 737's built. Comparing the A320's higher numbers to the 737NG is misleading because the first A320's were around about 10 years before the 737NG aircraft hit the market.

Ok, so what do those numbers look like when you back out those first 10 years of A-320 production ?
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sstsomeday
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RE: Has Boeing Evened The Narrow-Body Race?

Thu Nov 23, 2006 1:16 am

Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 19):
Aircraft delivered in 2005
Cessna 1157
Cirrus 600
Airbus 378
Raytheon 354
Diamond 329
Boeing 300
Piper 233
Bombardier, Embrader, everyone else even less.

I'm not sure how this list is relevant beyond trivia, since the value of the respective A/C these manufacturers build varies so greatly. This list certainly doesn't indicate who the LARGEST manufacturer is. However, one might look at the total value of those respective sales to find that out. Additionally, one might consider the PROFIT margins or each of these companies, or how their stock has fared, as a more relevant gauge of how they are doing, one company compared to another. But being able to say "we delivered the highest "number" of A/C this year" is somewhat of an empty boast, perhaps only helpful in consumer advertising, the way Boeing occasionally advertises in general publications, though it escapes me to what end.

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 20):
Without the original A350 to replace it, the A330 will probably continue to struggle on, with orders
declining to 21 so far this year (62 in 2005) versus
134 thus far in 2006 for the 787 (232 in 2005). Future
orders probably will be limited to existing customers
(such as the recent Lufthansa order), and carriers that
need an aircraft of this size, but are not willing to
wait for the 787. This last point could be significantly
undercut by the possibility of Boeing adding a second
production line for the 787, which has often been
mentioned as under consideration.

I'm surprised that this is the case. I consider the 330 a highly effective A/C, a 777 "lite" if you will, and good replacement for the old 767s. Some airliners are determined to wait for the 350, come hell or high water, so it seems to me that to satisfy their capacity growth needs in the short term, that they would acquire additional 330s in the interim, since they seem committed to flying Airbus fleets. Meanwhile, the 350 AIS has been pushed back several times. What alternative do they have than to pruchase the 330, even if the resale value of the 330 may drop considerably when the next generation (787, especially 350) come on line?

Quoting Stitch (Reply 24):
The A320 is certainly the brightest member in Airbus' current portfolio of aircraft and the recent planned increases in production (as well as moving the Chinese deliveries to their own dedicated line) should both bring in more cash for Airbus as well as give them the ability to win some sales thanks to earlier then planned future delivery slots.

Not to mention, the Chinese production line, I would imagine, will bring the 320 price down because of cheap Chinese labor and an increase in "supply." For these reasons I suspect the Chinese production line is a serious threat to the 737.

Do any laws or contracts require that 320s coming off the line in China must all be Chinese owned and operated A/C?
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jdevora
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RE: Has Boeing Evened The Narrow-Body Race?

Thu Nov 23, 2006 1:53 am

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 4):
Is that A320 vs 737NG? I think there are several thousand 737's built. Comparing the A320's higher numbers to the 737NG is misleading because the first A320's were around about 10 years before the 737NG aircraft hit the market.

I think Dhefty was talking about aircrafts ordered and not yet build.

As far as I know the 737NG was presented in 93, assuming that all the orders after that date were for the NG (I don't really know) Those are the orders that I got from the official web pages.

PS: Sorry in advance, It is the 3rd time that I post this table, but took me a good while geting the numbers and I couldn't resist to "amortize" the time ones more  Smile

YearAirbus A320 Family Boeing 737 Family
199313101
19949567
199581169
1996235438
1997364314
1998437353
1999408237
2000388373
2001175188
2002235162
2003155197
2004279152
2005918574
TOTAL:37833325
 
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flylku
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RE: Has Boeing Evened The Narrow-Body Race?

Thu Nov 23, 2006 2:58 am

Depending on your time horizon one could make the case for Airbus narrowing this race in recent years considering that Boeing has delivered more 737's than Airbus has delivered aircraft across its entire line.

Recent history suggests that Airbus has done extremely well and that Boeing has improved lately.

The airlines will never let one win over the other ... over the long term.
...are we there yet?
 
Morvious
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RE: Has Boeing Evened The Narrow-Body Race?

Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:01 am

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 23):
I wonder how you got away with this one.....the Euro crowd probably missed it....

Maybe the members of a.net have grown up and just read over these sort of lines (As it should).

To the Topic. I beleve Airbus is behind in the narrow body race. The Ng vs A32x race is a different story. Watching the last few years, the A320 familie is hard to beat.
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Stitch
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RE: Has Boeing Evened The Narrow-Body Race?

Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:02 am

Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 26):
Not to mention, the Chinese production line, I would imagine, will bring the 320 price down because of cheap Chinese labor and an increase in "supply." For these reasons I suspect the Chinese production line is a serious threat to the 737.

Do any laws or contracts require that 320s coming off the line in China must all be Chinese owned and operated A/C?

That I do not know, but the US could always haul Airbus before the WTO on an "anti-dumping" charge. Big grin

Seriously, the low production cost of the Chinese line might have been the reason for Airbus to set up the line since they will always be able to undercut Boeing on sale price while still making money.

Much as Boeing is doing with the 787's production process...  Wink
 
wingman
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RE: Has Boeing Evened The Narrow-Body Race?

Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:15 am

Nice chart JDevora, thanks for compiling and sharing. So over 12 years it looks like a 47%/53% split in favor of the 320 series. That's fairly evenly matched I'd say but the 320 does seem to be increasing the gap over the past few years. It is certainly the one Airbus plane I favor over the competing Boeing model as a passenger, especially in JetBlue configuartion aft of the exit row aisles. 34" pitch and live TV to keep the little ones nice and quiet. Great plane and one that Airbus is extremely fortunate to have in its stable right now.
 
flysherwood
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RE: Has Boeing Evened The Narrow-Body Race?

Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:36 am

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 23):

I wonder how you got away with this one.....the Euro crowd probably missed it....

Because the truth hurts!!!  Wink
 
PolymerPlane
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RE: Has Boeing Evened The Narrow-Body Race?

Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:48 am

Quoting Johnny (Reply 22):
he was not referring to 2006.It was a general statement from him.

Well, that's the same thing as saying 737 out sells 320 by a wide margin, over 2000 aircrafts.

Quoting Wingman (Reply 31):
Nice chart JDevora, thanks for compiling and sharing. So over 12 years it looks like a 47%/53% split in favor of the 320 series. That's fairly evenly matched I'd say but the 320 does seem to be increasing the gap over the past few years

I agree that last year was phenomenal year for A320, but without those big lump sum order and political order from China, I would say that A320 and 737 is still evenly matched, especially 5-10 years from now.

Cheers,
PP
One day there will be 100% polymer plane
 
beech19
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RE: Has Boeing Evened The Narrow-Body Race?

Thu Nov 23, 2006 4:03 am

Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 10):
No hanging. Boeing and Airbus dont hold a candle to Cessna. In the largest manufacturer race both A and B lose, C wins.

Finally... someone else has seen the truth.  duck 

Quoting Planemaker (Reply 16):
You might want to reconsider your statement!

Why? Its true... check the EOY deliveries.

Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 26):
I'm not sure how this list is relevant beyond trivia, since the value of the respective A/C these manufacturers build varies so greatly. This list certainly doesn't indicate who the LARGEST manufacturer is. However, one might look at the total value of those respective sales to find that out. Additionally, one might consider the PROFIT margins or each of these companies, or how their stock has fared, as a more relevant gauge of how they are doing, one company compared to another. But being able to say "we delivered the highest "number" of A/C this year" is somewhat of an empty boast, perhaps only helpful in consumer advertising, the way Boeing occasionally advertises in general publications, though it escapes me to what end.

Its not trivia. Its making a point. Airbus boasts they are the largest manufacturer because of the number of aircraft they produced in a year. If it was value of the aircraft it would be different. I beleive Boeing brings in more $$$ each year than Airbus does. BUT just by using Airbus's own self proclamation Cessna in fact is by far the largest. And if you really want to know, Cessna produced about 90% as many jets as Boeing or Airbus did last year, AND about 850 piston engine a/c on top of that. I'm still going with Cessna as the "largest aircraft manufacturer."
KPAE via KBVY
 
dhefty
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RE: Has Boeing Evened The Narrow-Body Race?

Thu Nov 23, 2006 4:25 am

Quoting Wingman (Reply 31):
Nice chart JDevora, thanks for compiling and sharing. So over 12 years it looks like a 47%/53% split in favor of the 320 series. That's fairly evenly matched I'd say but the 320 does seem to be increasing the gap over the past few years

It's an interesting chart, but misleading. This thread which I started compares production rates, not order rates. I feel this is a much better way to compare the two companies in the narrow-body market.

The picture since 1992 has been clouded by the fact that Boeing had three different product lines to offer (717, 737, 757) in the narrow-body market until 2004.

If you take the total NB market since 1993, as shown by JDevora, then Boeing has outsold Airbus by 3805 to 3783, or 50.1% to 49.9%, in other words basically equal. If you consider only 737 versus A320 series, then Airbus has outsold Boeing by 3783 to 3334, or 53.2% to 46.8%.

Deliveries tell quite a different story. If you consider the same period, that is since 1993 in the NB market, then Boeing has out-produced Airbus by 3252 to 2269, or 58.9% to 41.1%. Considering only 737 versus A320 series, Boeing still leads by 2564 to 2269, or 53.1% to 46.9%.

One conclusion can be seen quite readily: you can't gain market share without increased production capacity. I think this is one major strength that Boeing continues to have - their production capacity is greater.
 
sstsomeday
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RE: Has Boeing Evened The Narrow-Body Race?

Thu Nov 23, 2006 4:48 am

Quoting Morvious (Reply 29):
Maybe the members of a.net have grown up and just read over these sort of lines (As it should).

Here, here.

Quoting Beech19 (Reply 34):
Airbus boasts they are the largest manufacturer because of the number of aircraft they produced in a year.

But it's a hollow boast, since the value of the sales is what really counts. The number of A/C is just a number. The "number" of A/C produced cannot indicate the largest manufacturer. Logic doesn't allow it. The largest number of A/C produced indicates only the largest number of A/C produced. In of itself, it cannot support any other claim.
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hb88
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RE: Has Boeing Evened The Narrow-Body Race?

Thu Nov 23, 2006 5:21 am

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 23):
Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 8):
"The A380 is a given, already looking like a failure."

I wonder how you got away with this one.....the Euro crowd probably missed it...

Not this Euro. Unfortunate experience has taught me that most ardent anti-A380 critters are immune to reasoned discussion.

Easier to just move along, nothing to see here...
 
hb88
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RE: Has Boeing Evened The Narrow-Body Race?

Thu Nov 23, 2006 5:37 am

Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 36):
Quoting Beech19 (Reply 34):
Airbus boasts they are the largest manufacturer because of the number of aircraft they produced in a year.

Hmm. I'm not sure about this. Let's see the tag to the airbus website.

"Airbus, an EADS Company, is a leading aircraft manufacturer with the most modern and comprehensive product line.
Comments to Webmaster. Conception: Fullsix.
© Airbus S.A.S. 2006. All rights reserved."
 
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N328KF
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RE: Has Boeing Evened The Narrow-Body Race?

Thu Nov 23, 2006 5:39 am

Quoting HB88 (Reply 38):
"Airbus, an EADS Company, is a leading aircraft manufacturer with the most modern and comprehensive product line.

Right, so they have changed it from something that can be objectively proven or disproven (or at least counted using various different metrics) to something that is entirely subjective.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
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semobeila
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RE: Has Boeing Evened The Narrow-Body Race?

Thu Nov 23, 2006 5:45 am

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 23):
Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 8):
The A380 is a given, already looking like a failure.

I wonder how you got away with this one.....the Euro crowd probably missed it....

No, but probably just tired of commenting such posts...

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 33):
Quoting Johnny (Reply 22):
he was not referring to 2006.It was a general statement from him.

Well, that's the same thing as saying 737 out sells 320 by a wide margin, over 2000 aircrafts.

Not really comparable considering that between the introduction of the 737 and the A320 lay 20 years, whereas the 777 and the A330/340 have been introduced to the market within 2 years.
I think we all recognize that the 737 has been an incredible success, just in recent years the A320 took the lead.
 
hb88
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RE: Has Boeing Evened The Narrow-Body Race?

Thu Nov 23, 2006 6:04 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 39):
Quoting HB88 (Reply 38):
"Airbus, an EADS Company, is a leading aircraft manufacturer with the most modern and comprehensive product line.

Right, so they have changed it from something that can be objectively proven or disproven (or at least counted using various different metrics) to something that is entirely subjective.

Yeah, you're right. Another nail in the coffin of Airbus. Shame on them.
 
Shenzhen
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RE: Has Boeing Evened The Narrow-Body Race?

Thu Nov 23, 2006 6:05 am

Quoting Semobeila (Reply 40):
Not really comparable considering that between the introduction of the 737 and the A320 lay 20 years, whereas the 777 and the A330/340 have been introduced to the market within 2 years.
I think we all recognize that the 737 has been an incredible success, just in recent years the A320 took the lead.

I guess the lead is in the eye of the beholder. I believe Boeing stated not long ago, that they would rather have their backlog then Airbus' backlog, meaning they consider the quality of the backlog in addition to the total numbers.

Anyway... I don't think we will see either Company make "huge" gains on the other in backlog numbers, especially when comparing future orders, to what Airbus were able to accomplish last year, with A320 sales.

Cheers
 
beech19
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RE: Has Boeing Evened The Narrow-Body Race?

Thu Nov 23, 2006 6:05 am

Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 36):
But it's a hollow boast, since the value of the sales is what really counts. The number of A/C is just a number. The "number" of A/C produced cannot indicate the largest manufacturer. Logic doesn't allow it. The largest number of A/C produced indicates only the largest number of A/C produced. In of itself, it cannot support any other claim.

I agree... but airbus did claim that using the "number of aircraft produced." I was just playing devils advocate saying that technically using Airbus's own statements they were lying. Cessna would have been the largest. We all know that its truely how much you make that matters. Something tells me that tilts to Boeing's side with the huge amount of WB's they have been producing. Does anyone have the actual numbers? (i'm too lazy to look them up).

Quoting HB88 (Reply 38):
"Airbus, an EADS Company, is a leading aircraft manufacturer with the most modern and comprehensive product line.
Comments to Webmaster. Conception: Fullsix.
© Airbus S.A.S. 2006. All rights reserved."

They indeed have changed it... guess they got caught.  duck 
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hb88
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RE: Has Boeing Evened The Narrow-Body Race?

Thu Nov 23, 2006 6:07 am

Quoting Beech19 (Reply 43):
Quoting HB88 (Reply 38):
"Airbus, an EADS Company, is a leading aircraft manufacturer with the most modern and comprehensive product line.
Comments to Webmaster. Conception: Fullsix.
© Airbus S.A.S. 2006. All rights reserved."

They indeed have changed it... guess they got caught.

Caught? I'm not sure what you mean.

Perhaps it just reflects reality?
 
beech19
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RE: Has Boeing Evened The Narrow-Body Race?

Thu Nov 23, 2006 6:20 am

Quoting HB88 (Reply 44):
Caught? I'm not sure what you mean.

It was a joke... hence the smiley.
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N328KF
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RE: Has Boeing Evened The Narrow-Body Race?

Thu Nov 23, 2006 6:24 am

Quoting HB88 (Reply 41):
Yeah, you're right. Another nail in the coffin of Airbus. Shame on them.

I never said such a thing. You did. Don't put words in my mouth.

When you're (Airbus) down, it seems like an obvious move, and I was not faulting them for it. But you're so defensive about it. Wonder why that is.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
hb88
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RE: Has Boeing Evened The Narrow-Body Race?

Thu Nov 23, 2006 6:30 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 46):
Quoting HB88 (Reply 41):
"Yeah, you're right. Another nail in the coffin of Airbus. Shame on them."

I never said such a thing. You did. Don't put words in my mouth.

When you're (Airbus) down, it seems like an obvious move, and I was not faulting them for it. But you're so defensive about it. Wonder why that is.

Apologies, there should be an irony font (or I should have put a smiley in) - I was just trying to send up the 'dancing on the grave of Airbus' which is so common on a.net.

I was also reminded a little of another post in which the writer thought Airbus was clearly going to the dogs because he thought that the A380s on the long flights currently ongoing were dirty and not being washed.
 
PolymerPlane
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RE: Has Boeing Evened The Narrow-Body Race?

Thu Nov 23, 2006 6:45 am

Quoting Semobeila (Reply 40):
Not really comparable considering that between the introduction of the 737 and the A320 lay 20 years, whereas the 777 and the A330/340 have been introduced to the market within 2 years.

Same difference. You can set your own boundaries of the facts as you see it fit. For example: A330/A340 enjoys a wider market than B777. A340 is a quad while B777 is a twin. A330 is optimized for shorter range, while B777 is for longer range, hence not comparable.

I can manipulate all the numbers I want, but the facts remain that in the recent years, A330/A340 has been outsold by B777, just like A320 has been out selling B737 in the recent year. If we put B787 in the mix, the picture is even clearer.

Cheers,
PP
One day there will be 100% polymer plane
 
TrijetsRMissed
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RE: Has Boeing Evened The Narrow-Body Race?

Thu Nov 23, 2006 6:56 am

Quoting Johnny (Reply 17):
TrijetsRmissed
"Well the 777 has been outselling the A330/340 aircraft..."

THIS is only a Airliners.net-rumour.

Check the figures...

Ok lets drop the conspiracy theories and look at the facts. The figures show that in the past 5 years there have been more 777's built than A330's or A340's. If you combine the A330/340 production list it only out numbers the 777 by about 150 aircraft. That's 2 planes compared to 1, plus the first A330/340s entered service a couple years before the 777. The future looks very bright for the 777 while the A340 numbers have dwindled. The A330 remains a seller.

Quoting Dhefty (Reply 11):
Next year will be a low year for Airbus in wide-bodies, with A300 production ending in June

Is this true? I figured it would only be a matter of time, too bad.

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 23):
Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 8):
The A380 is a given, already looking like a failure.

I wonder how you got away with this one.....the Euro crowd probably missed it....



Quoting Flysherwood (Reply 32):
Because the truth hurts!!!



Quoting Semobeila (Reply 40):
No, but probably just tired of commenting such posts...

Yes the truth does hurt. It is not a cheap shot but facts are facts, deal with it. Although it is not a narrow body it is relevant to note its shortcomings when comparing the Boeing vs Airbus race.
There's nothing quite like a trijet.